#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 10 Feb 2004 (GMT)

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[06:44:32] <ilovepenises> my name is...very questionable :\
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[06:44:44] <iDONTlovepenises> :P
[06:44:47] <iDONTlovepenises> anyone awake?
[06:49:51] <servus> Err
[06:49:58] <servus> I might be, but I might be too afraid to be
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[12:28:51] <Colourless> hi
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[12:47:20] <wjp> hi Max, Ryan
[12:47:50] <wjp> Fingolfin: there is a post on the forum about the OS X version, and also an email on the ML
[12:49:50] <Fingolfin> will look
[12:51:18] <Colourless> hi Fingolfin
[12:55:04] <Fingolfin> wjp: email on ML sounds as if he's using 1.1.9rc1, not rc1a
[12:55:13] <Fingolfin> and hi Colourless, wjp, all, of course =)
[12:55:35] <Fingolfin> wjp: Clock Nova's post supports that. but then he's got problems with 1.1.9rc1a, too...
[12:56:03] <Fingolfin> which sound as if the wstring code is being linked (occurs in Std C++ lib, but I don't think we even use it, do we?). That code was added in 10.3, wasn't there in 10.2
[12:56:14] <Fingolfin> so I guess our exult binary only runs on OS X 10.3, and he's got 10.2...
[12:56:34] <Fingolfin> maybe I could create a 10.2 usable binary, but w/o having a 10.2 install at hand, that is a bit tricky...
[12:56:44] <wjp> how common is 10.2 still?
[12:56:58] <Fingolfin> pretty common still, since 10.3 update costs money
[12:57:03] <wjp> ah
[12:57:09] <Fingolfin> Apple provides "SDK" kits for 10.1/10.2/10.3 with XCode, but I don't know how to use them w/o using XCode
[12:57:15] <Colourless> Apple takes a page from Microsoft :-)
[12:57:22] <wjp> we should at least mark the download as OS X 10.3, I guess
[12:57:27] <Colourless> Point Releases cost money :-)
[12:59:27] <Fingolfin> personally, I don't mind paying $50 once a year for an update which gives me 10-30% faster system, many many new features, etc. :-).
[12:59:56] <Fingolfin> All free is good and nice, but then, if I could get upgrades like that for my car for $50/year, I'd be quite happy =)
[12:59:59] <wjp> it gets 10-30% faster each year? ;-)
[13:00:37] <Fingolfin> get yourself 4 times the same mac (one which runs 10.0 till 10.3), and install all of the 4 versions on them. Try them out...
[13:00:47] <Fingolfin> besides the visual differences, you'll notice a *huge* speed difference
[13:01:20] <Fingolfin> of course the raw CPU power is the same, but the system is getting more efficient in using it =). The screen rendering gets faster, teh file system, and all...
[13:01:26] <Fingolfin> =)
[13:01:38] <Fingolfin> kinda like people are excited about the new O(1) scheduler in Linux 2.6
[13:02:11] <Colourless> isn't it said though the reasons for the huge rendering speed increase was because the speed itself was just so poor in 10.0
[13:02:27] <Fingolfin> and I think M$ has a right to charge for updates, too, BTW.... It's OK to expect bug fixes and crucial corrections to be free (that's a must, IMO)... but I don't see why paying once for something should entitle you for life long free updates
[13:02:41] <Fingolfin> 10.0 speed was poor. 10.1 was much better... 10.1 was a free update, too, though...
[13:03:04] <Fingolfin> 10.2 was even faster, because it allowed HW accel for Quartz ... none trivial, considering it does alpha composing etc.
[13:03:38] <Fingolfin> and of course - to an extent one can always say "Bah, the very first version should have done this and that" :-)
[13:03:54] <Fingolfin> can say that about any produce (Linux, Windows; cars;... :-)
[13:03:55] <Colourless> Win95 was 4.0, Win98 was 4.1 and WinMe was 4.9
[13:04:27] <Colourless> there was a 'huge' difference in various aspects of the operating system between 95 and 98. Just a .1 increase doesn't really indicate the level of changes
[13:04:45] <Colourless> PnP for instance actually worked as expected in 98 :-)
[13:05:19] <Fingolfin> indeed :-)
[13:06:01] <Fingolfin> Linux 2.4 -> 2.6 is "only" a point release, too, after all, isn't it? :-) 2.5 was "internal development" only, so too say =)
[13:06:42] <Colourless> Win2k vs WinXP is 5.0 and 5.1. Of course those 2 aren't really all that different.
[13:07:30] <Colourless> then again. Just take exult 1.0 and 1.1 as an example :-)
[13:07:42] <Colourless> or 1.2 as it will be
[13:07:56] <Colourless> quite a few changes made
[13:09:20] <Colourless> anyway, from the sounds of things, apples devtools need a bit of improvement. By default an application that doesn't use any new features, should run on all versions of the os
[13:09:50] <Colourless> I build Exult on WinXP using not quite the latest Microsoft devtools, and it runs fine on Win95
[13:11:11] <wjp> Fingolfin: are you currently statically linking against the std C++ library?
[13:11:57] <Fingolfin> wjp: the STD C++ lib is static only over here
[13:12:25] <Fingolfin> normally, the linker should strip all unused symbols etc.
[13:12:51] <Fingolfin> the Std C++ lib allows using wchar code (wstring class etc.), which isn't present in OS X 10.2
[13:13:46] <Fingolfin> the Apple developer tools *do* allow linking apps so that they can run on 10.1, for example. they provide "SDKs" with the developer tools for this, which contain copies of all the headers, libs etc. of every major OS X version (except 10.0, but that's OK, nobody should use that given that 10.1 is a free update, and given how *bad* 10.0 was)...
[13:14:02] <Fingolfin> the problem is, I know how to use those SDKs trivially via XCode, apple's developer IDE
[13:14:11] <Fingolfin> but I dunno how to use them "triviall" from the CLI...
[13:14:40] <Fingolfin> maybe I can do it by inserting some -L / -I / -F statements at the start of LDFLAGS/CPPFLAGS... hrm
[13:17:47] <wjp> I think gcc also has some options to ignore the 'system' include/library paths
[13:21:00] <wjp> (nostdinc, nostdinc++ for the include paths; not sure about the library paths)
[13:44:55] <Fingolfin> possible
[13:45:08] <Fingolfin> I'll look later (tonight?) into this, gotta go now...
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[18:25:56] <artaxerxes> hi all
[18:26:12] <wjp> hi
[18:26:23] <artaxerxes> glad to see you wjp.
[18:26:25] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/hawk2.png :-)
[18:26:30] <artaxerxes> Got a weird question for you
[18:26:54] <artaxerxes> very cool!
[18:27:52] <artaxerxes> I'm cleaning up my code for the map making tools I've made and I got to wonder how come there is a 256 limit on the number of chunk used in a u7map
[18:28:32] <wjp> probably because only one byte was used for it somewhere?
[18:29:02] <artaxerxes> so, I've made a quick prog that list all the chunks used in SI. Grand total of 69!
[18:29:21] <wjp> hm, less than I would've expected
[18:29:23] <artaxerxes> out of 3000 or so! I guess something must be wrong
[18:29:49] <wjp> I would guess you have a bug somewhere :-)
[18:29:53] <artaxerxes> 'cause then, what are the 2931 chunks used for?
[18:31:06] <artaxerxes> all I'm doing is reading the u7map, 2 bytes at a time, reversing the order so that 6B 03 read 03 6B and convert it to integer and print it out. Then I use "sort" and "uniq" and "wc -l" and I get 69!
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[18:31:30] <artaxerxes> hi Dominus
[18:31:33] <wjp> hi
[18:31:54] <Dominus> hey ho
[18:31:56] <Dominus> wjp: great hwak
[18:31:58] <Dominus> hawk
[18:32:45] <artaxerxes> code is coming:
[18:32:46] <artaxerxes> #include <stdio.h>
[18:32:46] <artaxerxes> int main(int argc, char **argv){
[18:32:46] <artaxerxes> FILE *f;
[18:32:46] <artaxerxes> unsigned char val[2];
[18:32:49] <artaxerxes> char c;
[18:32:51] <artaxerxes> f=fopen("u7map","r");
[18:32:59] <artaxerxes> while(EOF != (c = fgetc(f))){
[18:32:59] <artaxerxes> val[1] = c;
[18:32:59] <artaxerxes> val[0] = fgetc(f);
[18:33:02] <artaxerxes> printf("%d\n",(int)val[1] + 256*(int)val[0]);
[18:33:04] <artaxerxes> }
[18:33:06] <artaxerxes> }
[18:33:34] <wjp> you have a bug :-)
[18:33:44] <wjp> fgetc returns an int
[18:34:55] <artaxerxes> int val[2]; then ?
[18:35:11] <wjp> looking at SI's u7map, this will stop after 392 values
[18:35:31] <wjp> (try doing a wc -l on the non-sorted, non-uniq-ed output)
[18:35:58] <wjp> no, 'int c;'
[18:36:38] <artaxerxes> owww. 36864!
[18:37:00] <artaxerxes> total from sorted and uniqed 2791
[18:37:05] <artaxerxes> much more like it
[18:37:19] <wjp> yes :-)
[18:37:47] <artaxerxes> so, it _is_ possible for the map to have more than 256 chunks!
[18:38:02] <wjp> so it would seem
[18:38:09] <artaxerxes> where did I get that limit from then!?!
[18:38:14] * artaxerxes is puzzled
[18:38:17] <wjp> no idea :-)
[18:38:22] <artaxerxes> go figure!
[18:38:28] <wjp> maybe because you're using an 8bit palette?
[18:38:50] <artaxerxes> I was using 8 bit palette _because_ I thought it was limited to 256 chunks! :-)
[18:40:09] <Dominus> wjp: only "problem" with the hawk is that one (at least I) tend to try to place the hawk on the shoulder and not the belt
[18:40:37] <artaxerxes> should I still put my code in CVS now?
[18:40:41] <Dominus> and maybe a left hand shape would be great too
[18:41:01] <wjp> left hand shape would be confusing, since you can't actually use it as a weapon from the left hand
[18:41:05] <artaxerxes> Dominus: seems there is no room on the shoulder though
[18:41:25] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/hawk1.png
[18:41:29] <Dominus> artaxerxes: you have to move it to the belt slot
[18:41:38] <artaxerxes> ohhh
[18:41:43] <artaxerxes> not good.
[18:41:49] <wjp> Dominus: might be a bug
[18:42:03] <artaxerxes> STUNING!
[18:42:19] <Dominus> also with leather armor it looks odd
[18:42:23] <artaxerxes> pretty cute paperdoll too! ;-)
[18:42:43] <artaxerxes> where does that one comes from?
[18:42:43] <Dominus> as the leather is drawn on top of the hawk
[18:42:45] <wjp> Oblivious did Jaana's face
[18:42:58] * artaxerxes should play more of BG! ;-)
[18:43:14] * wjp tries on some leather armour
[18:43:38] <wjp> oh I see... shoulders on that are rather high
[18:43:54] <wjp> nothing much I can do about that :/
[18:44:07] <Dominus> I guessed as much
[18:44:19] <Dominus> but no one is running around in leather anyway
[18:44:25] <artaxerxes> how 'bout a drawing order?
[18:44:34] <wjp> drawing order needs to be like it is now
[18:44:43] <artaxerxes> k
[18:44:46] <Dominus> females don't look very good in leather
[18:44:50] <artaxerxes> ;-)
[18:45:00] <Dominus> hmm, maybe if I add a whip...
[18:45:01] <wjp> artaxerxes: get your mind out of the gutter ;-)
[18:45:16] * wjp wonders if that's an english expression at all
[18:45:32] <artaxerxes> hey! I'm not the one talking about whips! ;-)
[18:45:59] <Dominus> anyway, the hawk looks really great
[18:46:00] <artaxerxes> let alone chains.... ;-)
[18:46:08] <artaxerxes> yup. I agree
[18:46:11] <Dominus> or handcuffs
[18:46:17] <artaxerxes> oh come on! lol
[18:46:25] <wjp> Jaana starts out in just a shirt
[18:46:51] <artaxerxes> one of those days we'll get a porn-version u7.
[18:47:12] <Dominus> we don't have the hood done yet, right? (imagine jaana in leather, whip and a leather hood) :-)
[18:47:27] <wjp> are you offering to do the hood? :-)
[18:47:32] <Dominus> he he
[18:47:34] <Dominus> nope
[18:47:38] <wjp> pity :-)
[18:47:42] <artaxerxes> He's tied with the handcuffs! ;-)
[18:48:10] <Dominus> still wondering how the readied starburst should look
[18:48:17] <artaxerxes> indeed
[18:48:51] <wjp> hm, dinner; I'll bbl
[18:49:03] * wjp reminds self to look at the belt/shoulder issue
[18:49:03] <Dominus> cu
[18:49:23] <artaxerxes> bye
[18:50:18] <artaxerxes> Dominus: during conversation with wjp, it appeared I got it all wrong with the possible number of chunks in a map. Consequently I have to change my code quite a bit. Do you still want me to upload all that stuff in CVS?
[18:50:57] <Dominus> no need now, or maybe yes so it will make you look into fixing it sooner :-)
[18:51:11] <Dominus> it's not that I'm desperate for the tools
[18:51:24] <Dominus> I just think it would be nice to have them around
[18:52:01] <Dominus> and when they are incvs, the chanes are kirben will look into compiling them soon :-)
[18:52:46] <artaxerxes> actually, I _do_ have precompiled windows binaries!
[18:52:57] <artaxerxes> thx to Colourless
[18:54:54] <Dominus> yeah, I remember, but when kirben gets them to compile you will always have up to date version in the tools snapshot
[19:13:40] <wjp> back
[19:13:59] <wjp> artaxerxes: I have no objections to having them in cvs already
[19:14:09] <wjp> you can always commit fixes later :-)
[19:16:08] <wjp> did we ever discuss where to put them exactly?
[19:16:41] <Dominus> just toss them into the main dir :-)
[19:16:44] * Dominus ducks
[19:18:02] <artaxerxes> er, I believe we decided to put them in exult/mapedit/tools
[19:18:18] <wjp> k :-)
[19:31:30] <artaxerxes> If I commit those tools, is it going to affect the build process? Can I simply create a directory and hope the Makefile will ignore it?
[19:32:19] <wjp> it will ignore it :-)
[19:32:40] * wjp hmms at paperdoll spot-finding code
[19:32:52] <wjp> this can't be right
[19:33:13] <wjp> hm, or maybe it can
[19:33:18] <Dominus> so what should I do tonight, write some digital music stuff for the docs, play BG, play U9, play PSX-Crusader and make some screenshots, or watch Jeremiah epsodes...
[19:33:18] * wjp hmms some mroe :-)
[19:33:21] <artaxerxes> ok. I'll commit it then.
[19:33:22] <wjp> s/mroe/more/
[19:33:40] <artaxerxes> Dominus: multi-task!
[19:33:42] <wjp> Dominus: ah, I think the last 3 are definitely out of the question ;-)
[19:34:20] <wjp> and don't forget another option: make some more paperdoll art :-)
[19:34:29] <artaxerxes> like a hood... ;-)
[19:34:42] <wjp> no, it's wrong
[19:34:44] <Dominus> problem is that I don'T have my computer and my TV in the same room. Otherwise I could do two things...
[19:35:03] <Dominus> ...or the leather collar....
[19:35:19] <artaxerxes> my TV is K.O. since december... we've been watching TV on my computer ever since! :-)
[19:35:46] <artaxerxes> awesome to program/surf/watch tv at the same time!
[19:35:48] <Dominus> I won't try to do paperdoll art. Doing that penguin statue took me ages
[19:36:16] <artaxerxes> wjp: are you the originator of the hawk paperdoll?
[19:36:27] <artaxerxes> or someone else did it
[19:36:53] <wjp> well, I basically did
[19:37:06] <wjp> not exactly from scratch, though :-)
[19:37:16] <Dominus> artaxerxes, is that shape program you did included in your stuff you will comit?
[19:37:30] <artaxerxes> nope. It's something very different.
[19:38:52] <Dominus> what about it? any chance of it wandering into exult cvs as well?
[19:39:41] <artaxerxes> it could but the code is really, really ugly.
[19:39:59] <wjp> Dominus: fixed the belt/behind-back item dropping issue
[19:40:18] <Dominus> artaxerxes: I'll promise to turn out the light when I look at it :-)
[19:40:26] <Dominus> wjp: grear
[19:40:30] <wjp> it mapped the behind-back slot to the belt slot _before_ checking if the mouse was close to it :-)
[19:40:30] <Dominus> great
[19:41:34] <artaxerxes> was there a belt slot in BG?
[19:41:40] <Dominus> yeah
[19:41:54] <Dominus> only no bealt *and* back slot
[19:41:59] <artaxerxes> an a behind-back other thatn for backpack?
[19:42:07] <wjp> we mapped the weapon-behind-back and shield-behind-back slots to the belt slot in BG
[19:42:11] <Dominus> damn spelling tonight
[19:42:15] <wjp> so all three slots are the same one
[19:42:25] <artaxerxes> skillful
[19:42:42] <artaxerxes> skillful <-- both for Dominus and wjp ! ;-)
[19:42:57] <Dominus> before that you could "loose" items with the SI-paperdolls enabled
[19:42:58] <wjp> Colourless is the one who did the BG paperdolls, btw
[19:43:09] <wjp> s/loose/lose/, even
[19:43:17] <Dominus> :P
[19:43:18] <artaxerxes> all: yeah, I remember
[19:43:46] <Dominus> those were the times... when I was the undisputed master of our bug tracker
[19:43:51] <artaxerxes> damn spelling tonight... that's actually what gave the name to "le_camomille" and "le_tisane"
[19:44:26] <Dominus> that first run through SI was rather interesting
[19:44:41] <artaxerxes> as well as "la_cafe" and "le_chicoree", all perl tools I made to translate SI.
[19:44:45] <wjp> speaking of the bug tracker... three new bugs it seems
[19:45:11] <artaxerxes> Dominus: who is the undisputed master now?
[19:45:16] <wjp> hm, reproducable crash in the petra body swap thingie
[19:45:26] <wjp> I wonder if I can reproduce it too
[19:45:40] <Dominus> artaxerxes: nobody I guess
[19:46:04] <artaxerxes> nonetheless, the amount of bug registered from the beginning is quite impressive.
[19:47:02] <Dominus> wjp: hmm no savegame... and mine are a bit too old
[19:47:35] <wjp> I already requested a savegame
[19:47:54] <Dominus> wjp: didn't you do something with resurrection lately? what was that about?
[19:48:06] <wjp> oh, that was the healing cheat
[19:49:12] <artaxerxes> btw, I teleported to a certain place, and I saw what looked like a house of the dead in SI! Is that normal?
[19:49:19] <Dominus> yea
[19:52:16] * Dominus thinks he really needs to do the digital music docs stuff
[19:52:35] * Dominus curses the readme that comes with the digital music files
[19:52:54] <artaxerxes> old data, eh?
[19:53:09] <Dominus> yup
[19:53:36] <Dominus> should have been with the documentation from the start and not the files
[19:54:22] <artaxerxes> OH, I totally forgot to post that bug!
[19:54:33] <artaxerxes> wrt the digital music!
[19:55:04] <artaxerxes> I tried to fight the invisible pikeman in Knight's Test and the sound was simply *horrible*
[19:55:24] <artaxerxes> I had to turn it off until I finished the guy.
[19:55:47] <Dominus> sfx or music?
[19:56:02] <wjp> I can't reproduce that petra bug with my own savegames
[19:56:03] <artaxerxes> sfx I think. You've got to try it yourself
[19:56:22] <wjp> do you keep seeing little 'poofs' (clouds of smoke) ?
[19:56:31] <artaxerxes> yup
[19:56:36] <Dominus> uh oh
[19:56:41] <artaxerxes> and annoying sound with it too
[19:56:49] <Dominus> your game is haunted
[19:57:00] <wjp> I got that too
[19:57:20] <artaxerxes> the poofs are normal. It's the whizz that are not.
[19:57:22] <wjp> artaxerxes: btw, I get a similar rendering bug as the one you mailed about in the temple of discipline
[19:57:28] <Dominus> wasn't that an old bug when the pikeman didn't just get invisible but turned into some kind og machine?
[19:57:41] <artaxerxes> Jeff replied to me today and said he'll look at it today.
[19:58:39] <Dominus> can one of you send me a savegame close to the test?
[19:58:53] <artaxerxes> sorry, mine is at home
[19:59:55] <wjp> mine is too :-)
[20:00:03] <wjp> (luckily, so am I ;-) )
[20:00:14] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exult159si.sav
[20:00:15] <Dominus> he he
[20:00:19] <wjp> it's one from 0.99.1
[20:00:28] <wjp> just after 'recruiting' Petra
[20:00:35] <wjp> you still need to get to the temple
[20:00:49] <wjp> (but you already have the relevant serpent tooth)
[20:01:14] <Dominus> (I was actually thinking about the knight's test but that is sth to test as well)
[20:01:39] <wjp> oh
[20:01:45] <wjp> give me a sec :-)
[20:02:18] <wjp> same url with '31'
[20:02:22] <Dominus> I'm getting the officiall windows release in the meantime
[20:03:35] <artaxerxes> exult159si.sav ????? how high does it go to?
[20:04:02] <wjp> I have 224 SI saves
[20:06:44] <artaxerxes> wao
[20:11:51] <artaxerxes> well.. I gotta go
[20:12:04] <artaxerxes> see ya later. I'll put all my junk under exult/mapedit/tools asap
[20:12:19] <wjp> bye
[20:12:21] <-- artaxerxes has left IRC ("leaving")
[20:14:59] <Dominus> Und sched. opcode 0x00 when that inviible pikeman strikes...
[20:17:24] <Dominus> hmm, aren't savegames upoosed to sort by date?
[20:17:40] <Dominus> your two are not on top but way further down...
[20:18:18] <wjp> might be using the date stored internally
[20:18:27] <Dominus> yeah that'S it
[20:19:59] <Dominus> now what is the way to the temple of discipline?
[20:20:56] <wjp> serpent gate: right-most gate of the top row, then the right serpent gate
[20:21:41] <Dominus> thanks
[20:25:52] <Dominus> no problems here either
[20:26:12] <Dominus> with the exact release version
[20:26:50] <Dominus> got to go now and neither of my ideas on how to spend the evenning is valid (my gf made the plany now...)
[20:26:53] <Dominus> cu
[20:26:56] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("a pooka invited me for a drink")
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