#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 10 Jan 2002 (GMT)

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[00:12:17] --> Kharza-kzad has joined #exult
[00:13:58] <Dominus> hi
[00:20:22] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("Exult! Exult! Exult!")
[00:36:03] <Kharza-kzad> gday
[04:20:14] <sbx|sleep> lo
[04:20:14] <-- Kharza-kzad has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[04:20:17] <sbx|sleep> ...
[04:20:25] * sbx|sleep sleeps some more.
[05:28:53] --> amy has joined #exult
[05:30:15] <sbx|sleep> lo
[05:31:19] <sbx|sleep> are you amy lear?
[05:31:25] <amy> Yep.
[05:31:40] <sbx|sleep> oh, your dont usually come here do you? :)
[05:31:43] <amy> Decided to drag out the IRC client and take a look-see.
[05:31:48] <amy> Nope.
[05:32:02] <sbx|sleep> o_O
[05:32:07] <amy> ?
[05:32:13] <sbx|sleep> not much here to see :)
[05:32:19] <amy> Yep.
[05:43:10] --> WarBird^ has joined #exult
[05:44:25] <WarBird^> Thanks guys! you own! many of my friends have started playing U7 thanks to you. great game! great work!
[05:44:39] <-- WarBird^ has left IRC (Client Quit)
[05:48:19] <amy> That was interesting.
[05:53:03] * sbx|sleep will accept the thanks even though he didn't do anything. :)
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[06:31:44] <sbx|sleep> lo
[06:32:24] * Darke greetingsbows, "Hello all. <grin> There's an unusually large number of creatures on at this time of day."
[06:33:37] * Darke hasn't had 'sleeping' people acknowledge his existance before...
[06:33:56] * sbx|sleep thought he did it at least once.
[06:34:28] * Darke thinks that he could verify that with the logs... except he really can't be bothered. <grin>
[06:34:38] <matto> Dark Fluff!
[06:34:51] <matto> sbx|sleep!
[06:35:19] <Darke> Ok, so that's _two_ people awake at the moment. <grin>
[06:35:26] <sbx|sleep> haha
[06:35:33] <sbx|sleep> oops wrong window
[06:35:48] * Darke giggles.
[06:35:51] <sbx|sleep> but the haha applies here also i guess
[06:36:23] <Darke> Only if you're amused in here as well. <innocentfluff>
[06:36:51] <sbx|sleep> :)
[06:38:16] * sbx|sleep is.
[06:38:29] <sbx|sleep> i need help with my own conf format
[06:38:40] <sbx|sleep> who wants to help me?
[06:39:30] <Darke> Own conf format?
[06:39:45] <sbx|sleep> the file format
[06:39:52] <sbx|sleep> my own= the one im making
[06:40:22] <Darke> Ahh. Anything in specific you need help with?
[06:40:36] * amy awakens.
[06:40:38] <sbx|sleep> yes, im not sure what would be more intuitive to a computer novice
[06:40:41] --- amy is now known as Amy
[06:40:46] * Amy corrects capitolization.
[06:40:52] * Darke is actually in the process of 'unmaking' his conf format, and using the default one with a few tweeks.
[06:40:53] <Amy> Capital, whatever.
[06:40:58] --- sbx|sleep is now known as SBX
[06:41:06] * Darke grins.
[06:42:04] <SBX> what is better for the start of a subsection? 'begin name_of_section'(this would need an opposite 'end' tag), or 'name_of_section/'(not sure how to end the section that way), or something else/
[06:42:25] <SBX> s/something else\//something else?
[06:42:28] <SBX> :)
[06:43:30] <Darke> It depends. You could also use a similar format to 'ini' files, and have the start of a new subsection, end the old subsection.
[06:43:32] <Amy> One config file format is to use [name of section] and simply treat the occurance of a new section as an end to the previous.
[06:43:37] <Amy> Yeah, that.
[06:43:57] <SBX> yeah i was doing that originally, but i want to allow sub-sub sections too
[06:44:03] <SBX> any amount of recursion
[06:44:12] <Amy> I see.
[06:44:33] <SBX> i dont think the <XML> like stuff is obvious to a computer novice
[06:44:35] <Amy> If you're wanting something like that, than an 'xml'ish format would be the easiest from an implementation point, but that wouldn't be user friendly.
[06:44:42] <SBX> heh
[06:45:18] <Amy> Why are you needing an unlimited amount of recursion? Surely all the relevant information can be put in a limited number of subsections.
[06:45:59] <SBX> extendability(sp?)
[06:46:09] <Amy> And?
[06:46:19] <SBX> thats it
[06:46:22] <SBX> just in case
[06:46:24] <Amy> You can always add additional information to existing subsections, or simply create a new subsection.
[06:46:57] <Amy> The program can check for datums that are not present int he config file, and add them along with a default value.
[06:47:11] <Amy> That way any new extensions in newer versions will be automatically present.
[06:47:38] <Amy> 'Course, that gets tricky, but that's probably the most user-friendly method you could be aiming for.
[06:47:41] <Darke> n-dimenstional arrays, where n>3 tend to be... interesting to do when you've got a 'ini' style layout, I've had that problem before.
[06:47:47] <SBX> that is probably true, but the internal structure already allows for infinite recursion :)
[06:47:59] <SBX> Darke: what would it look like ? :)
[06:48:02] <Amy> Computer novices tend to have trouble grokking recursion, though. =>
[06:48:52] <Amy> I know this from spending an hour trying to explain the concept to one of my customers.
[06:49:03] * Darke has trouble grokking recursion... or at least debugging it anyway. <grin>
[06:49:09] <SBX> "com-put-er?"
[06:49:12] <Amy> I think all I managed was just to confuse her.
[06:50:12] <Amy> A recursive conf format will cause confusion, and a great deal of mis-placed data. A linear fashion is probably where you want to go. Discrete sections that are obvious as to their purpose.
[06:51:00] <SBX> Well.. thanks but come to think of it, my current format is pretty easy to understand, and only has two reserved words and 1 special character. I don't think it needs to be changed after all.
[06:51:10] <Amy> Okay.
[06:51:12] * SBX is sorry. :-|
[06:51:13] <Darke> (ini-recursion) Subsections are one dimension, lables are the second, multiple deliminator seperated values in a label are the third, after that you need to 'group' a number of values in a label, using somesort of parens or something, kind of like: LABEL = {var1, var2}, {var3, var4}. So you've got 4 dimensions, then you can recurse that for each extra dimesion. It gets icky very quickly.
[06:51:47] <Amy> Heheheheheheh.
[06:51:55] <Amy> I remember trying to do that, once, back when I was working with Pascal.
[06:52:24] <SBX> error while parsing 'Darke' text: virtual memory exhausted!
[06:52:34] * SBX aborts.
[06:53:05] * Darke doesn't even admit to knowing Pascal, or Modula-2, or Hascall. <ickfluff> Evil, evil languages. <grin>
[06:53:18] <Amy> I still prefer a subset of Forth, myself.
[06:53:31] <Amy> When you strip out all the nasty ANSI stuff, it's a nice language.
[06:55:07] <Darke> I didn't find Forth to be too bad a language, but I must admit I haven't done anything other then trivial programming in it. Lisp is also IMHO a so-so language.
[06:55:58] <Amy> The problems I find with ANSI Forth are the weird operators that give it the ability to redefine the language's syntax on the fly.
[06:56:04] <Amy> Sorry, I like the default syntax, thanks.
[06:56:17] * Darke grins.
[06:56:39] <Amy> I tried to follow some weird programs that altered the behavior of the language mid-word. Um. No.
[06:56:57] <Darke> It's rather cool... but it has similar problems to operator overloading in C++, perhaps something that was better off not added to the language.
[06:56:59] <Amy> When it goes from postfix to prefix to infix to postfix in the span of six lines... I get lost.
[06:57:06] * Darke icks.
[06:57:22] <Amy> The fact that the language can do this is kinda neat.. But it's mis-engineering, in my opinion.
[06:57:55] <Amy> Operator overloading, done right, doesn't necessarily suck.
[06:58:04] <matto> Amy: are you a new exult developer?
[06:58:18] <Amy> For instance, if you have a function that does the exact same thing to integers as to floats.. That's okay.
[06:58:22] <Amy> I'm not a developer. =>
[06:58:23] <SBX> Amy is not new
[06:58:24] <Amy> I just hang out.
[06:58:44] <Amy> I know just enough to talk about it with folks, and... that's it. =>
[06:58:45] <matto> oh
[06:58:58] <matto> I guess I've just missed you when you've been in here before
[06:59:00] <matto> I am often AFK
[06:59:03] <Darke> <grin> She's a 'lurker'.
[06:59:05] <Amy> I've never been in here before.
[06:59:17] <Amy> I've been on the mailing list for, like, a year or two now, though.
[06:59:17] * matto frowns at SBX
[06:59:22] <matto> mailing list!
[06:59:27] <matto> you aren't the old Apple ][gs user are you?
[06:59:31] <SBX> i didnt say she was not new to #exult :)
[06:59:32] <Amy> Yep!
[07:00:09] <matto> Amy: ah cool ... I'm "the dude" who released the source code to that program Megaterm
[07:00:14] <matto> (as you called me in the mailing list hehe)
[07:00:15] <Amy> .. Neat.
[07:00:30] <Amy> I never got around to playing with that, though.
[07:00:34] <matto> matt : "anyone remember megaterm?" amy : "Yeah and I've got the source. The dude released it."
[07:00:44] <Amy> Yep.
[07:01:02] <matto> have you tried the KEGS emulator? it rules
[07:01:08] <Amy> I have, off and on.
[07:01:17] <Amy> What I wish is that fewer GNU programs assumed int==pointer.
[07:01:20] * SBX wants an Apple ][.
[07:01:32] <matto> SBX: specifically an Apple ][gs :)
[07:01:33] <Amy> Otherwise, it might be possible to actually port crap over to it.
[07:01:43] <SBX> what about an Apple//c?
[07:02:06] <matto> I thought about trying to port linux to the ][gs but figured since it wasn't 32-bit it would be a total lost cause
[07:02:07] <Amy> I don't have any c or c+ systems, oddly. I've got everything else, save a ROM 3 GS.
[07:02:20] <Amy> Porting linux is lost, yes, but there's already a Unix-like system for it.
[07:02:23] * Darke 's aunt has an Apple II in 'perfect' condition in storage for him if he ever has a use for one...
[07:02:24] <Amy> Called GNO/ME.
[07:02:32] <matto> yeah I remember when they were developing that
[07:02:58] <Amy> I never got to try it, because I don't have a hard drive for my GS.
[07:03:19] <Amy> The /real/ problem with porting things to the GS from Linux/Unix land is that it has 24 bit pointers.
[07:03:38] <Amy> And too many programs assume 32 bit int capability is equal to 32 bit pointer.
[07:03:40] <matto> I have a ][gs hard drive... we're about to throw it in the garbage hehe
[07:03:46] <matto> it's broken though
[07:03:48] <SBX> why are the pointers 24 bit?
[07:03:49] <Amy> Aw.
[07:03:59] <Amy> Because it's only got a 16 megabyte address space. =>
[07:04:00] <matto> and I maanged to salvage the images off it, so I have all the data saved.. and KEGS can read it
[07:04:14] <matto> it does?
[07:04:15] <SBX> so why arent the pointers 16 bit?
[07:04:25] <matto> I remember when I programmed ][gs assembly it seemed to have 24-bit addresses
[07:04:32] <SBX> wait 16 megabute
[07:04:33] <SBX> byte
[07:04:34] <matto> a bank (8 bits) and then a 16-bit address in addition to that
[07:04:38] <SBX> thot you said 16 bit addresses
[07:04:39] <Amy> Yep.
[07:04:41] <SBX> ohh
[07:04:42] <matto> you wrote to bank 01 or 0xE1 to do graphics
[07:04:56] <Amy> They are 24 bit, Matto.
[07:05:17] <matto> oh I misread
[07:05:22] <matto> I thought you said somewhere that it wasn't 24-bit
[07:05:23] <Amy> So did SBX. =>
[07:05:48] <matto> I've never presumed that an integer was equal to a pointer
[07:05:52] <matto> that's preposterous programming :)
[07:05:54] <Amy> Yeah, but you're an exception.
[07:06:03] <SBX> GNU does?
[07:06:13] <Amy> Especially with all the folks who 'grew up' on Intel machines.
[07:06:37] <Amy> Yeah, GNU does. At least, did. I researched this about 4 or 5 years ago.
[07:07:30] <Amy> It's not a totally invalid assumption, if all you've ever seen is machiens whose pointers were the same size as integers.
[07:07:49] <Amy> Such as folks who started with 386 class, or later Motorola based systems.
[07:08:22] <matto> I don't think it's that big of a deal ... porting any unix code to the ][g seems like a waste of time when you can just run the ][gs in an emulator on a linux box :)
[07:08:39] * Amy points at the $3,080,278.
[07:09:04] <Amy> We can just run Ultima 7 in an emulator on the linux or windows box.
[07:09:10] <Amy> So this has all just been a waste of time, right?
[07:09:36] <matto> I haven't been able to run Ultima 7 in an emulator. What are you referring to?
[07:09:38] <Amy> Sometimes being able to do something is more interesting than whether or not there's a point in doing so.
[07:09:42] <SBX> so ][gs has 32bit integers?
[07:09:47] * SBX is a little slow.
[07:09:47] <Amy> .. Kinda.
[07:09:50] <matto> SBX: no way, ][gs is a 16-bit machine
[07:09:55] <Amy> It can do 32 bit math.
[07:09:59] <Amy> .. Kinda.
[07:10:10] <matto> so can an 8-bit machine hehe
[07:10:15] <Amy> Yeah.
[07:10:18] <matto> SBX: it only has like 3 registers.. an accumulator, X and Y
[07:10:25] <matto> and it can run in 8-bit mode if need be
[07:10:41] <Amy> In any case, the thing that bit me when I first did research on it is that all the GNU software assumed int >= pointer.
[07:10:42] <matto> Amy: so what's this about being able to play Ultima 7 with an emulator?
[07:10:47] <Amy> Bochs.
[07:10:54] <matto> bochs? last I tried it didn't work
[07:10:55] <Amy> I managed to get it to run a few years back with it.
[07:10:59] <Amy> Well.
[07:11:01] <Amy> I got it to work.
[07:11:05] <matto> with sound?
[07:11:06] <Amy> If not run.
[07:11:17] <Amy> Mm... Not the first time, but sound worked later. Kinda.
[07:11:27] <matto> _kinda_ ?
[07:11:30] <Amy> I think the current versions can pull it.
[07:11:38] <Amy> Yeah, the FM stuff was really flakey, so all I got was PCM.
[07:11:55] <Amy> Which is a very small subset of the game's sound.
[07:12:12] <Amy> Also, if you're willing to invest in VMWare, it can run Ultima 7.
[07:12:29] <Amy> VMWare's VGA emulation sucks mightily, though.
[07:12:55] <Amy> I need to check on Plex86 again.
[07:13:03] <matto> I couldn't get vmware to run Star Control 2 in DOS when I tried
[07:13:05] <matto> but dosemu runs it
[07:13:09] <Amy> .. Weird.
[07:13:28] <Amy> In any case, I got VMWare to run Ultima 7, with sound.
[07:13:33] <matto> cool
[07:13:35] <matto> that's good enough for me
[07:13:51] <Amy> Of course, at the time, I had this K6-2 333, which was kinda sluggish with VMWare, especially with my mighty 64mb of ram.
[07:14:09] <SBX> theres a program called Exult now, so you dont need to do that anymore
[07:14:20] <Amy> I'm quite aware of this. =>
[07:14:36] * SBX has a K6 200MHz with 40MB RAM.
[07:14:36] <Amy> And I hope everyone else here is as well. =>
[07:15:11] * Darke doesn't know _what_ this exult thing is...
[07:15:25] * Amy eyes the fellow with ops.
[07:15:41] <SBX> Darke kick yourself
[07:15:50] * Darke bows.
[07:16:00] <SBX> hehe
[07:16:02] <Darke> SBX: Sorry, that's Colourless' job. <grin>
[07:16:10] <SBX> i know but hes not here :(
[07:16:40] <SBX> i read in the logs "Colourless has kicked Darke(your talking to much!)" when you hadnt said a thing
[07:17:02] * Darke grins.
[07:17:25] <Amy> I look forward to the weekend when I'll have time and energy enough to play games with the map builder.
[07:17:34] <Amy> Alpha testing! Woo!
[07:18:24] <Darke> Good luck! <grin> You'll probably need it.
[07:20:49] <Amy> I'll just spam everyone on the list to death.
[07:22:44] <Amy> I like testing/breaking things, as long as I have someone to feedback to violently.
[07:23:32] * Darke giggles. "You're best bet is to test whilst on irc, when someone else is around that can answer your questions or make fixes."
[07:23:53] <Amy> I might do that. After I send out the mass mailings.
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[08:31:46] <Nadir> hi
[08:31:46] <SBX> hi
[08:31:49] <Nadir> 'ning
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[09:10:42] <V0|D> hello
[09:10:53] <SBX> hi
[09:11:44] <V0|D> wats up?
[09:12:17] * SBX shrugs.
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[09:14:37] <SBX> hi
[09:14:51] <V0|D> any1 here run exult on mac os x?
[09:15:27] <Wumpus> fingolfin is occasionally around...
[09:15:43] <Wumpus> (and he does)
[09:15:45] <V0|D> ok
[09:15:46] <Wumpus> `lo all, btw :)
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[09:16:07] <SBX> wb
[09:16:07] <Nadir> b
[09:17:02] <V0|D> i got a snapshot from a couple weeks ago to compile and work on os X, but it creates a binary i have to run from the terminal shell. i was wondering how to make a double-clickable app
[09:18:31] <Wumpus> can't you just do something like a shortcut in winblows?
[09:18:34] <Wumpus> s/do/make/
[09:19:32] <V0|D> dunno, im fairly new to this, only wrote and compiled std text in/out c++ before, never graphics
[09:19:45] <V0|D> limited unix knowledge
[09:20:09] <Wumpus> hehe :) well i'm just guessing, having never used OS X at all, and MACs at all incredibly rarely
[09:20:56] <V0|D> ok, thanks anyway
[09:21:19] <SBX> i used OS X at the electronics store for about five minutes :)
[09:21:39] <V0|D> the SDL doco mentions something about it, but from what I can see in the exult source, it should all work. im compiling the latest snapshot now btw
[09:23:10] <SBX> i thought fingolfin pulled the OS X downloads?
[09:23:14] <SBX> due to bugs?
[09:24:12] <V0|D> im using the exult CVS snapshot source. worked last time :)
[09:31:29] * Wumpus is finally rebuilding exult, after having been more or less absent for a week, hehe :)
[09:34:27] * SBX hasn't updated his copy in a long time.
[10:07:08] * Darke considers that's the benefit of being a 'bug creator', you at least have the latest copy of the code, for a game you never actually play. <grin>
[10:09:07] <Wumpus> :P
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[10:39:26] <Wumpus> you should :)
[10:39:31] <Wumpus> (play it, that is)
[10:39:36] * Wumpus hmms at email... bah, i'll deal with it tomorrow
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[10:44:36] * Darke will probably play it sometime in the future. <grin>
[10:53:35] <V0|D> where in qld are you, darke?
[10:53:52] <Darke> Brisbane.
[10:54:13] <V0|D> my brother in ipswitch has optus cable, it kicks arse
[10:54:21] <V0|D> i was just there a few days ago
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[10:54:40] <wjp> wow, quite a crowd
[10:54:41] <Darke> V0|D: <nod> Optus Cable is very, VERY nice.
[10:54:41] <wjp> hi everyone
[10:54:50] <V0|D> hi
[10:54:56] <Darke> Hi wjp. <bow> Yes, a rather larger crowd then usual tonight.
[10:54:59] <SBX> hi
[10:55:02] <V0|D> whats the d/l limit per month?
[10:55:51] <Darke> V0|D: About 600Meg maximum per day, but you're safer staying about 500Meg. Go over the limit and you're kicked off that day/night.
[10:56:09] <V0|D> how long are you kicked off for
[10:56:10] <V0|D> ?
[10:56:54] <Darke> V0|D: Until you pay them about a $100 reconnection fee and wait about 4 days. It happened to myself and a few friends when we were staying in an apartment together.
[10:57:29] <wjp> How can they get away with that?
[10:57:55] <V0|D> wow, telstra is only 3gb. works out to be 100mb a day, but you could blow it all in one day and not get kicked (actually you cant do it all in one day cause the transfer speed isnt fast enough)
[10:58:10] <Darke> wjp: You've breached the AUP, that's the 'standard' reconnection fee to get someone to call around and 'setup' the system again.
[10:59:08] <SBX> ?
[10:59:16] <SBX> Darke: what is involved in reconnection?
[10:59:25] <wjp> doesn't really sound fair or anything... I hope they at least give a warning when you're close to the limit
[10:59:39] <Wumpus> probably, the tech has to un-click the 'account disabled' checkbox :P
[10:59:49] <SBX> heh heh figures
[10:59:54] <V0|D> oh yeh, the 1-9-02 snapshot compiled on os X, incase anyone cares
[11:00:22] <V0|D> Wumpus: shouldn't that be 'tech'? hehe
[11:00:22] <Darke> SBX: It used to be you get a new 'machine name', and they just had the person on site to check that the connection 'worked'. But now it's all controlled by the id of your cable modem or something, so I don't know how they handle it now.
[11:00:25] * wjp doesn't know if he has a daily and/or monthly d/l limit
[11:00:40] <Darke> wjp: There is an email warning.
[11:00:45] <wjp> I did download about 2Gb in a single day, once, though
[11:03:17] * SBX has never had a connection that fast. :(
[11:03:44] <Darke> It's actually a rolling 14 day download limit, you can easily download 2Gb in a day, we managed to download 3Gb in a day, and that's what kicked us over the maximum for that period.
[11:04:16] <wjp> oh, ok, that sounds better already
[11:04:19] <Wumpus> hehe
[11:06:37] <SBX> I've managed to download... maybe 70MB in a day.
[11:06:37] <SBX> :P
[11:06:57] <SBX> not sure
[11:07:12] * Wumpus has had his modem going full tilt for > 24 hours :P so about 300 megs :P
[11:07:18] <Wumpus> (in a day, that is)
[11:09:04] <V0|D> my previous ISP had a 200mb limit, i had a 33.6 modem!
[11:09:20] <Darke> <nod> One of the complaints about the current Telstra cable scheme (that it appears V0|D is on), is that you can actually download more using a 56K modem in a day, then using their cable service.
[11:09:22] <Wumpus> ya, i'm still on a 33.6... for now :P
[11:09:33] <SBX> i'm connected at 26.4
[11:09:45] <V0|D> thats why I got a laptop...so i could go into uni and download on their network >:)
[11:09:48] <SBX> but no limits as far as i can tell, as if they would need one :)
[11:09:56] <Wumpus> lol
[11:10:06] <Wumpus> void- thats one of the reasons i got myself a notebook, hehe :)
[11:10:09] <V0|D> darke: is that with the timed accounts?
[11:10:13] <SBX> why can you download more on a 56K modem than using Telstra?
[11:13:15] <Darke> As V0|D mentioned above, you've got a 3Gb per month cap, which works out to 100Meg a day. I regulaly downloaded more then that a day (with a free isp service) when I didn't have cable.
[11:13:35] <V0|D> cool, which isp was it?
[11:14:10] * Wumpus uses his school for internet at the moment... only got about 100 megs of external quota left, but the vast majority of stuff i download comes from a mirror inside school, which is "free' :)
[11:14:31] <Wumpus> s/school/university tutor account/
[11:15:07] <Darke> V0|D: Umm... GoConnect, if I remember correctly.
[11:15:11] <V0|D> all the ISPs i know of that were 'unlimited' didnt stay that way for long. usually had 200-300mb limits per month
[11:15:18] <wjp> Wumpus: you have an external quota?
[11:15:19] <V0|D> in the end
[11:15:36] <Wumpus> wjp- indeed.... but its otherwise completly free, so i'm not complaining :)
[11:15:48] <Wumpus> wjp- they had some abuse problems, and introduced quotas about 2 years ago
[11:16:00] <wjp> pity
[11:16:20] <Wumpus> people were using the school's fat pipe and a notebook to haul stuff home :(
[11:16:21] <V0|D> same at my uni, except it was only on http :)....then they wised up eventually and blocked all other ports :(
[11:16:34] <Darke> V0|D: This one gave you ads in a window on the desktop, so we had a windows box, and just installed some gateway stuff on it, so we could use it on out personal boxes without ads.
[11:16:56] <Wumpus> hehe darke
[11:17:07] <Wumpus> graet idea :)
[11:17:19] <V0|D> darke: cool, i think my bother also used one of those free internet providers too
[11:17:24] <Wumpus> goconnect went to a charged basis, though, didn't they :|
[11:17:26] <Darke> We needed to share it anyway, since there were half a dozen computers in the apartment, and two of us living in it.
[11:17:33] <Wumpus> parents used freeonline for a while
[11:18:28] <Darke> Wumpus: No idea. I haven't used it for about a year. But they also had accounts you could pay for, so you didn't get any ads, whilst we were still on it.
[11:18:50] <V0|D> anyway, i couldnt go back to modem now :)
[11:19:24] * wjp has to go to work... back in 30-45 minutes
[11:19:25] <wjp> bye
[11:19:34] <-- wjp has left IRC ("[x]chat")
[11:19:46] * Darke couldn't go back to a modem either. Far, far too slow. <grin>
[11:20:45] <V0|D> im only on the 256k account, but its still worth it i think. esp the pings :)
[11:21:09] <Wumpus> typing emails through a response time of about a second is fun... especially correcting things :)
[11:21:16] <V0|D> but telstra have cut that account out, so when the contract is up ill just have to go with the 512 <sigh>
[11:24:35] <Darke> Wumpus: That's certainly not what I would call 'fun' by any stretch of the imagination. <grin>
[11:24:55] <Wumpus> :P
[11:26:06] <SBX> I doubt I could do that with my typing skills at all.
[11:26:24] <Wumpus> i can, but only just :P
[11:26:55] <Wumpus> and it can lead to some interesting results when i miss left-arrowing or backspacing by one :P
[11:27:11] <SBX> Daere Wmo^wWumpsu^Hsu^Hus, I have reassd^H^H^H adbo^W about your neww intre^WSCREW TIHS! ::q:;q;:::QQQ!
[11:27:27] <Wumpus> :P
[11:28:19] * Wumpus notes to stay out of JK's car
[11:28:23] <Wumpus> bah
[11:28:37] <Wumpus> of course, my ability to type in the right channel is another matter entirely :P
[11:30:54] * Darke evilgiggles. There are ways and means of training someone out of this 'ability'. <grin>
[11:34:06] * Wumpus hides
[11:38:53] <V0|D> doesan1 know if BitchX does multiple channels? i mean how do you do that?
[11:39:19] <SBX> yes join another
[11:39:24] <Wumpus> from what i've been told its the same as epic; just /join ing multiple channels works, doesn't it?
[11:39:37] <V0|D> how do u switch between them?
[11:39:44] <Wumpus> you can have multiple windows too... but that's likely to beo ne of the ways in which it differs from epic
[11:40:17] <SBX> you can /join #channel to switch to it
[11:40:25] <SBX> if your already in it thats what happens
[11:40:29] <Wumpus> yeah, or /channel
[11:40:35] <Wumpus> (ie /channel #foo)
[11:40:41] <V0|D> i see...that could end up being quite a bit of typing
[11:40:48] <Wumpus> (which i use, since i have /join bound to create a new window with the channel in it)
[11:40:56] <SBX> /cha #foo
[11:41:00] <SBX> works?
[11:41:18] <V0|D> and for a new server, you would just open a new window?
[11:41:26] <Wumpus> v0|d- multiple windows can be done :) but you'll probably need to check the manual for it (i couldn't even tell you how to do it on a vanilla epic instal... i've tweaked my config quite a bit :P)
[11:41:31] <Darke> V0|D: It depends. If you're just watching one channel and participating in another, it's not all that bad.
[11:41:55] <Wumpus> you could have different channels on the same server in different windows...
[11:42:12] <Wumpus> but yeah, you almost certainly need an entirely separate (internal) window for a different server
[11:42:33] <V0|D> k, thanks :)
[11:42:39] <Wumpus> is bitchx actually just a rewrite of ircii, or is it a whole new thing just designed to be relatively brain compatible?
[11:43:07] <Wumpus> ah, DL has finished, I can fell it :)
[11:44:46] <V0|D> ok, me dumb, how me leave a channel?
[11:44:52] <SBX> BitchX (1) - The Ultimate IRC Client
[11:44:56] * Darke torments Wumpus with a nice, thick datapipe.
[11:45:01] <Wumpus> v0id- /part #foo :P
[11:45:02] <Darke> V0|D: /part.
[11:45:08] <V0|D> ahhhh
[11:45:19] <V0|D> cool, ive only used gui clients in the past
[11:45:20] <SBX> Wumpus: it is a modified ircii
[11:45:36] <V0|D> its pretty too
[11:46:15] <SBX> strange that I usually use GUI clients too but still use the '/part' etc commands :)
[11:46:38] <V0|D> haha
[11:46:40] <SBX> started using them with mIRC *shudder*
[11:46:56] * Wumpus remembers starting his ircing with mirc
[11:47:02] <Wumpus> evil, evil :P
[11:48:35] <V0|D> i started with 'homer'. was an irc client for mac, it was very simple and easy to follow, also had a big button that would be red if you were op. oh, how i wanted to see that big red button
[11:48:49] <Wumpus> hehe :)
[11:49:24] * Darke wonders why you didn't just create your own channel. It's easy to see it then. <grin>
[11:49:42] <Wumpus> :)
[11:49:58] <Wumpus> /channel #wumpus_is_31337 :P
[11:50:28] * Darke grins.
[11:50:57] <Wumpus> reeeebooot, hmm
[11:50:59] <V0|D> yeh, i did. but it wasnt very satisfying
[11:51:14] * Wumpus will return more to the world of exult on this weekend and let its own version of reality catch up with him :)
[11:51:29] <Wumpus> v0id- and you can kick yourself out, or ban yourself :)
[11:51:31] <Wumpus> anyway, cyall
[11:51:33] <-- Wumpus has left IRC ("No windows for this server")
[11:51:37] <V0|D> hehe
[11:52:08] * Darke wonders why anyone would actually _want_ op anyway... OTOP, he _is_ the onlybun here with ops...
[12:02:15] <V0|D> ok, when i build a newer version of a unix program that i alread have, does it overwrite the old version?
[12:02:48] <V0|D> for example, if i now built the latest bitchx, would the old binary be overwritten?
[12:03:24] <SBX> if you install it in the same location
[12:03:45] <SBX> just typing 'make' does not install it for most programs
[12:04:15] <V0|D> but make install will?
[12:04:29] <SBX> if you configure them the same, and the new version has the same files
[12:04:48] <V0|D> ok
[12:05:43] <V0|D> im just worried about building a installing stuff cause im fairy new to unix and i hate the way windows installers (and many classic mac installers) put stuff everywhere
[12:08:25] <SBX> i dont know about unix in general, just slackware linux
[12:08:51] <SBX> most of the stuff that uses GNU automake/autoconf will install where you tell it to
[12:09:12] <V0|D> but the default directory is /usr/local/bin ?
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[12:09:57] <SBX> /usr/local
[12:11:00] <V0|D> hmmmmm....os X is weird like that, slightly different directory structure
[12:44:45] <V0|D> bye all, thanks for the help!
[12:44:47] <V0|D> :)
[12:44:50] <-- V0|D has left IRC ("()")
[13:06:19] <-- Darke has left IRC (Remote closed the connection)
[13:14:50] <-- SBX has left IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[13:19:46] --> SBX has joined #exult
[13:23:42] <SBX> Eh?
[13:23:46] <SBX> ...
[13:30:26] --> Darke has joined #exult
[13:30:26] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Darke
[13:30:38] * Darke bows, "Hello again."
[13:40:25] --> Colourless has joined #Exult
[13:40:25] <Colourless> hi
[13:40:49] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[13:56:32] <SBX> hi
[13:56:39] <SBX> wb Darke what heppened to you?
[14:01:09] <Darke> SBX: Death by X freezing somehow. <grin> No luck unfreezing it in any way, and trying to `shutdown` didn't work, it took out the ssh daemon though and since console was locked up...
[14:01:37] * Colourless says nothing
[14:01:38] <Darke> One _long_ reboot later, after it had fscked 80Gig. <grin>
[14:02:24] * Darke grins at Colourless, his copy of win2k on this box did exactly the same thing, once every couple of days. So it's not as if MS did any better.
[14:03:14] <Colourless> what vid card?
[14:04:37] * SBX used to get frequent XFree86 crashes with the 4.0.x series but finds it to be far more stable now.
[14:05:52] <Darke> Colourless: GeForce SDR currently, GF2Ultra and GF2GTS also did the same things.
[14:06:21] <Colourless> you see, that's your problem. Nvidia == closed source :-)
[14:06:23] * Darke has currently got his Ultra in the games machine, and has lent a friend his GTS, thus the SDR in his linux box.
[14:06:50] <SBX> i have only one PC, so I *always* have to reboot when it decides to lock up :\
[14:07:57] <Darke> Colourless: If ATI was actually able to get their Raedons into the country within 6 months of their .us release, I would have a Raedon rather then an Ultra. <grin> But I don't know of any open source 3d card drivers under linux.
[14:08:14] <Colourless> most lock ups i experience are caused by me :-)
[14:10:15] <Darke> Games, then my code cause most of my lockups/reboots.
[14:10:36] <SBX> the only code i have that locks up is GL stuff
[14:11:16] <Colourless> yes, exactly :-)
[14:11:37] <SBX> but since i dont do a lot of that, its usually not my fault :-)
[14:11:52] <Darke> One version of ucxt, before I committed it to cvs, would automatically reboot any win2k box I ran it on. Don't know why though.
[14:12:16] <Colourless> very strange
[14:13:05] <Darke> Agreed. I think it was something weird in it's 'dos emulator', since that version was compiled with DJGPP, just before I swapped to cygwin.
[14:14:15] <Colourless> ah, ok.
[14:14:58] <Colourless> so why were you using djgpp?
[14:15:09] <Colourless> it would have been slow, and restriced to 8.3
[14:17:13] * Darke had been using win98, until about a month or two before that, and was also using it at the time doing work related stuff on his home pc (djgpp+nt4 'desktops' to do basic compile testing for code running on sparcs, the sparc dev machine was too slow). Last time he tried cygwin under 98 it was... sluggish to say the least.
[14:17:44] <Colourless> bah, use mingw
[14:18:06] <Darke> DJGPP was faster then that too. <grin>
[14:18:15] <Colourless> you serious?
[14:18:19] * Darke nods.
[14:18:37] <Colourless> under win98 maybe, but no chance under NT
[14:18:48] <Darke> Perhaps I hadn't setup mingw properly, but djgpp was faster, under 98. Never used it under nt.
[14:23:34] <Darke> IIRC I actually grabbed cygwin to compile exult, so I started using it to compile my other programs as well, since it was far too much fuss to switch paths and such, and things seemed to work. <grin> That was about the time I dropped ucxt into cvs, then didn't have much time to do anything with it for 6 months or so.
[14:24:58] <SBX> What is more appropriate? Sino-Russian or Russo-Chinese?
[14:32:02] <SBX> :D
[14:36:40] * Darke officially has No Idea(tm).
[14:37:01] * Colourless is clueless :-)
[14:38:46] * Darke wonders if he can quote you on that. <grin>
[14:39:26] * Colourless doesn't care
[14:40:17] <SBX> 'Colourless is clueless :-) --Colourless'
[14:40:20] <SBX> :P
[14:41:51] <Colourless> :-)
[14:42:05] <Colourless> quoting it should be more like
[14:42:12] <Colourless> "Colourless is Clueless"
[14:42:21] <Colourless> -Ryan
[14:42:36] <Colourless> remember, it has to be taken out of context :-)
[14:42:44] * Darke grins.
[14:43:24] <SBX> heh
[14:43:41] <Darke> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/56/23622.html Ooooh look, the 'first' virus for the .NET architecture, that was quick. <grin>
[14:50:09] <SBX> .NET has holes?!?!? :O
[14:50:53] <Colourless> :-)
[14:50:57] <SBX> --> 'Related stories' '.Net may lead to fewer viruses'
[14:55:03] * Darke thinks it was a really stupid thing to name a 'web services architecture', after something that is _designed_ to have holes in it.
[15:36:27] * Darke gets the feeling /etc/fortune is trying to tell him something... "If God had intended Man to Watch TV, He would have given him Rabbit Ears." He's just not sure _what_ though.
[15:36:52] <Colourless> :-)
[15:38:26] --> Fingolfin has joined #exult
[15:38:27] * Darke thinks it might be along the lines of... therefore you _must_ watch TV. But he much prefers to sit in front of a computer screen, thanks.
[15:38:43] <SBX> Darke: hehe
[15:38:45] <Fingolfin> hi
[15:38:46] <SBX> hi
[15:38:46] * Darke bows, "Hi Fingolfin."
[15:38:55] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Fingolfin
[15:38:59] <Colourless> hi
[15:44:47] <Fingolfin> Colourless: you added some hack for Midi playback in the map viewer I see? hm, how hard would it be to add in other midi drivers, so that it works on more systems?
[15:45:33] <Colourless> pretty small :-)
[15:45:41] <Colourless> all i did was directly access midi driver
[15:45:48] * Fingolfin notices another advantege of the libtool/automake free build system in pentagram/viewer - it can be built from any account and any place
[15:45:52] <Fingolfin> ok...
[15:45:54] <Fingolfin> hmm
[15:46:07] <Colourless> just really need to change the midi driver
[15:46:07] <Fingolfin> now if I had some time.... if I hadn't to do this other work...
[15:46:36] <Fingolfin> hrm, has been a couple of days since I last broke something.... if you don't count the erasure of the whole webspace of that other project... :)
[15:46:54] <Fingolfin> ah, I wanted to add the webpage to CVS... serves as a backup, too =)
[15:49:57] <Colourless> ideally what should be done for midi is to use the midi_player class from exult, which will automatically select the correct player
[15:50:52] <Colourless> a few changes need to be made though as pentagram doesn't use the note conversion that exult does
[15:51:53] <SBX> this "pentagram" plays music now?
[15:51:59] * SBX is really out of the loop. :-)
[15:52:07] <Colourless> windows only
[15:52:21] <SBX> ah
[15:54:26] <Fingolfin> Colourless: ideal would be if we could clean up the code in such a way that it can be shared between both
[15:55:15] <Colourless> yeah
[16:05:07] --> Dominus has joined #exult
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[16:05:16] <Dominus> hi
[16:05:33] <Colourless> hi
[16:06:03] <Fingolfin> hi
[16:06:59] <SBX> hi
[16:07:24] <SBX> uh oh dominus and fingolfin are both cyan
[16:07:27] <-- SBX has left #exult ()
[16:07:30] --> SBX has joined #exult
[16:17:31] <Fingolfin> ? cyan?
[16:17:33] <Fingolfin> I am red!
[16:17:56] <wjp> hi
[16:17:59] <Fingolfin> OK, I just imported the web page into CVS, and will now switch the only version to use CVS
[16:18:01] <Fingolfin> hi wjp
[16:18:07] <Colourless> hi
[16:18:16] <wjp> you're not red; you're orange
[16:18:29] * wjp doesn't know what this is about, btw :-)
[16:18:43] <Fingolfin> how dare you! I am as red as blood; as red as a good glass of wine; as red as the color of my shirt
[16:18:44] <Fingolfin> :)
[16:18:56] * Fingolfin doesn't know either, but who cares?
[16:18:57] <SBX> Fingolfin: no your still cyan :(
[16:19:09] * SBX shrugs.
[16:19:49] <Dominus> Fingolfin: about our webpage in cvs, is it just for security storage?
[16:19:56] <Fingolfin> well
[16:20:09] <Fingolfin> that, too, but also you should make your changes to CVS, and only then update the web page
[16:20:19] <Dominus> sure
[16:20:22] <Fingolfin> so we can version it, too
[16:20:45] <wjp> gtg; bye
[16:20:46] <-- wjp has left IRC ("[x]chat")
[16:20:51] <Dominus> good thing, so I don't have too keep that much changes in the docs and faq
[16:23:03] <Fingolfin> hmm
[16:23:16] <Fingolfin> the forum data is in a DB; right?
[16:23:38] <Fingolfin> I decided to not put the daily snapshot stuff into CVS (except for the two .htmls), that's ok I hope
[16:24:04] <Dominus> understandable
[16:25:26] <Fingolfin> I moved the old pages into a "old_htdocs" subdir, next to the htdocs dir
[16:25:54] <Fingolfin> if anybody notices any quirks, just shout :)
[16:36:14] <Dominus> why don't I haer any music anymore in pentagram display and why isn't it centered on the music egg anymore?
[16:36:41] <Colourless> because you are using an old version?
[16:36:42] <Colourless> :-)
[16:37:05] <Dominus> hmm, no?
[16:37:49] <Colourless> load up viewer/display.cc and see if there is a function called win32_playmusic at the top
[16:38:56] <Dominus> void win32_playmusic
[16:39:02] <Colourless> hmm, ok
[16:39:21] <Colourless> did you did a make clean>
[16:39:30] <Dominus> yep
[16:40:03] <Colourless> no, if it can't find the music egg, it wont play music and it wont center
[16:40:17] <Colourless> s/no/now/
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[16:43:07] <SBX> wb wjp
[16:43:53] <wjp> thx
[16:44:44] <Dominus> hmm, going to check if I somehow have some crusader file instead of u8 in there
[16:44:44] <Darke> Hello again.
[16:45:02] <wjp> crusader files?
[16:45:04] * wjp reads logs
[16:45:11] <Colourless> from yesterday
[16:45:35] <Colourless> dom was attempting to see if pentagram worked with crusader, it didn't
[16:45:41] <wjp> ah
[16:46:11] <wjp> pity. At this point it might've still worked
[16:46:22] <Dominus> oops that was it, it used the crusader nonfixed.dat. Sorry for being stupid :-)
[16:46:43] * Fingolfin wonders if there is a good reason why Shape::get_dims has "int xoff" instead of "short xoff" ...
[16:46:52] <Fingolfin> -> negative xoff won't work right in there
[16:47:17] <Fingolfin> I am cleaning up the file anyway, you think it would be correct to fix this, or has it actually a reason?
[16:47:25] <Colourless> fix what?
[16:47:58] <Colourless> ah that
[16:48:02] <Fingolfin> that yeah =)
[16:48:11] <Dominus> wjp: take a look at http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a9848357/exult/crusader.jpg
[16:48:13] <Colourless> truth be told, that function doesn't work anyway
[16:48:31] <wjp> no, that function is deprecated :-)
[16:48:33] <Fingolfin> ah ok :)
[16:48:35] <Fingolfin> good
[16:48:42] <wjp> Dominus: neat :-)
[16:48:54] <wjp> Dominus: it didn't even crash?
[16:49:22] <Dominus> shpdisp crashed on some things, globdisp as well and display on startup
[16:49:45] <wjp> Dominus: which program was this screenshot from?
[16:49:54] <Dominus> irfan view
[16:50:02] <Dominus> but that's how it looked
[16:50:07] <wjp> irfan?
[16:50:16] <Dominus> www.irfanview.com
[16:50:29] <Dominus> it's a nifty little program
[16:51:02] <wjp> I meant which program the screenshot was from, not which program took the screenshot :-)
[16:51:04] <Dominus> for viewing pictures, flash, mp3 (plugins) and for doing screenshots of the apps
[16:51:07] <Colourless> the screenshot was from shpdisp
[16:51:12] <wjp> Colourless: thx :-)
[16:51:13] <Dominus> oops sorry :-)
[16:52:02] <wjp> np :-)
[16:52:21] <Dominus> of course I had to rename a couple of files to u8*.*
[16:53:30] <wjp> "The size of the game window depends on the resolution I'm running Exult at"... oh my... I would be surprised if the (physical) size was resolution-independant :-)
[16:53:53] <Dominus> ?
[16:53:57] <wjp> (from the forum)
[16:54:17] <SBX> Dominus: the little blocks on the titlebar look like the blocks from the main theme of Sawfish
[16:54:23] <SBX> kinda
[16:55:54] <Dominus> it's from the watercolor theme for XP
[16:57:04] <SBX> oh
[16:57:26] <Fingolfin> =)
[16:57:32] <Fingolfin> yeah, already replied to that forum post =)
[16:58:14] <SBX> Is 'The Road Warrior' the sequel to 'Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome'?
[16:58:45] <Dominus> isn't road warrior the prequel
[16:58:59] <SBX> OoOoOoh "prequel"
[16:59:01] <SBX> hehe
[16:59:13] <SBX> dunno
[16:59:22] <Dominus> it is
[16:59:28] <Colourless> Road Warrior was before AFAIK
[16:59:40] <Dominus> it was Mad Max 2
[16:59:47] <Dominus> thunderdome was 3
[17:00:21] <SBX> what was 1?
[17:00:26] <Dominus> mad max
[17:00:33] <Fingolfin> bah!
[17:00:36] <Colourless> :-)
[17:00:36] <Fingolfin> I am not mad!
[17:00:44] <Dominus> relatively unrelated to the 2nd and 3rd
[17:00:52] <SBX> ok thanks
[17:00:52] <SBX> i only saw the third then
[17:01:56] <Dominus> the 1st one is excellent (though it was low-budget)
[17:02:36] <Dominus> if you saw waterworld you can guess what the 2nd one looked like (waterworld was an expensive but cheap copy of it)
[17:03:54] <SBX> what happened to the water in 3?
[17:04:23] <Dominus> in mad max desert in waterworld water
[17:04:56] <SBX> but they look alike ?
[17:04:57] <Dominus> waterworld is a madmax2 movie with water instead of desert
[17:05:06] <SBX> i get it
[17:05:31] <SBX> was it just called Mad Max II in most of the world?
[17:05:35] <Dominus> they are very similar (one reason why I think waterworld sucks)
[17:05:41] <Dominus> yep
[17:12:27] <wjp> hmm, this forum post had me confused for a while:
[17:12:42] <wjp> "You think time travel does not and will not exist because you think we would see around us people from the future, or because of the same reasons Egwene Sedai HATES it? :)"
[17:12:56] <wjp> had me wondering where in WoT time travel was mentioned :-)
[17:13:34] <wjp> (until I found a post by someone with the nick "Egwene Sedai"... :-) )
[17:17:02] <SBX> i am only familiar with the term 'Sedai' because a MUD i play is based on WoT
[17:17:16] <wjp> Egwene is a character from WoT, too
[17:17:34] <SBX> how do you pronounce that?
[17:18:33] <SBX> <|:-)
[17:19:03] <wjp> strange, Egwene isn't mentioned in the glossary in the back of the books
[17:19:19] <wjp> (glossary also contains pronounciations)
[17:23:10] <SBX> how do you pronounce it?
[17:23:28] <SBX> i have a hard time going over someones name in a book if im not sure how to say it
[17:25:13] --> EazyCheez has joined #exult
[17:25:18] * Fingolfin thinks there is still something wrong with object placement in pentagram, besides drawing order - the misplaced tables on top of the palace look like it at least
[17:25:20] <EazyCheez> Hello :)
[17:25:36] <Fingolfin> lo
[17:25:41] <Dominus> hi
[17:25:46] <wjp> hi
[17:25:57] <SBX> hi
[17:26:18] <SBX> wow 12 people
[17:26:26] <SBX> (exultbot is a person)
[17:26:46] <wjp> Colourless: typo in error message: "Unable to open typeflags.dat"
[17:27:02] <Colourless> hmm, yeah
[17:27:03] <wjp> Fingolfin: misplaced tables?
[17:27:44] <Colourless> the drawing order is 'really' wrong
[17:27:47] <Fingolfin> wjp: around the "waypoint"
[17:27:55] <wjp> they're in the right spot, IIRC
[17:27:57] * Darke adds 'basic' comment support to conf/. That is, you can add <!-- stuff --> comments anywhere between the <config> ... </config> tags. To allow me to add them outside them, is going to make me forcefully redefine what conf/ thinks of as a 'root node'. <grin>
[17:28:06] <wjp> it's just that all the taller objects behind are drawn first
[17:28:15] <Fingolfin> wjp: hm, really? seems to me they are to much north...
[17:28:27] <Fingolfin> hm, it's a bit hard to imagine I guess how it looks with a different order :)
[17:28:30] <Dominus> hm, for pentagram display it would be nice if there would be an alternative to center on music eggs (for maps that don't have it)
[17:28:30] <EazyCheez> what is pentagram anyway?
[17:28:45] <Darke> EazyCheez: TIMP!
[17:28:55] <Darke> s/M/N/
[17:28:58] <Dominus> EazyCheez: read the FAQ :-)
[17:29:17] <Colourless> dominus: the problem is what should be centered on?
[17:29:37] <Fingolfin> wjp: ok, it might be the order after all
[17:29:48] <Fingolfin> now, how would one fix that problem I wonder?
[17:29:49] <wjp> yeah, the legs of the tables are in the right place
[17:29:53] <EazyCheez> ahhhh
[17:29:59] <wjp> Fingolfin: write a proper compare function
[17:30:01] <EazyCheez> an ultima 8 shapes/map viewer
[17:30:16] <Fingolfin> wjp: sure, I meant more, how would one do that in a proper compare function
[17:30:20] <EazyCheez> hopefully it will encourage people to make something similar to Exult :)
[17:30:24] <wjp> the current comparison orders on highest z coordinate first, others later, which is clearly wrong
[17:30:34] * SBX cheers for Darke, a little belated but there it is. :P
[17:30:37] * Colourless is busy attempting to do that
[17:30:39] <EazyCheez> cuz it would be great to play U8 in the same way as U7 in exult :)
[17:30:40] <Dominus> Colourless: don't know it only is annoying to look at some maps llike 159 (comment is strangeness) and not knowing in which direction to scroll to find it
[17:31:24] <wjp> straight up
[17:31:40] <SBX> EazyCheez: it looks like just u8 did
[17:32:12] <EazyCheez> SBX: I'm sure... but it would be cool to use the Super2xSAI scaler, like Exult
[17:32:20] <wjp> SBX: unsurprisingly, since it uses U8's graphics ;-)
[17:32:28] * SBX didn't like U8 enough to care.
[17:32:35] <SBX> oops
[17:32:41] <SBX> i mean, no comment :-)
[17:32:57] <SBX> "good work!"
[17:33:01] <SBX> :O
[17:33:27] <Darke> "Umm... I'll go hide under this rock, away from the bad men with torches and pitch forks now..."
[17:34:02] <Colourless> the most annoying part about writing the compare function is it's got to work in three dimentions
[17:34:09] <SBX> Darke: conf/ comments rule
[17:34:50] <Fingolfin> Colourless: sure thing =)
[17:34:59] <wjp> Colourless: for a while I was tempted to write a small program that would display all possibilities of relative object placement one at a time, and build a lookup table from them
[17:35:57] <Colourless> heh, nice idea, but the table would be absolutely massive
[17:36:03] <Darke> SBX: And they're 'properly' saved in memory and outputted as well... or at least they appear to be, I haven't tested it much yet. <grin>
[17:36:21] <SBX> Darke: embedded by character offset?
[17:36:23] <wjp> Colourless: not really. Only a couple of thousand elements or so
[17:36:25] <Dominus> he he map 223 is funny
[17:37:44] <Darke> SBX: The bit inside the <!-- --> should be saved identically, but it's 'offset' relative to the file, is altered just like the rest of the tags. However if it comes before a particular tag, it'll always come before that tag.
[17:38:18] <Colourless> doing sorting seems simple enough, until you actually start to think it. Then it become real hard :-)
[17:38:53] <Darke> s/sorting/programming/
[17:39:09] <SBX> Darke: still l33t :P
[17:42:33] --> Kharza-kzad has joined #exult
[17:42:45] <wjp> hi
[17:42:50] <SBX> Darke: I've always wanted the file to retain my indentation but I guess that won't happen soon?
[17:42:50] <Kharza-kzad> gday
[17:42:51] <SBX> hi
[17:43:06] <Colourless> hi
[17:47:43] <Fingolfin> full today :)
[17:48:11] <Fingolfin> an easy observartion: if you compare zbot instead of ztop, then the tables, and the walls of the palace become right; but of course now other things are broken
[17:48:25] <Fingolfin> hm... I think trying isn't doing to much good, one should think about it more "mathematical" =)
[17:48:36] <wjp> Fingolfin: yeah :-)
[17:49:14] <Colourless> actually really, thinking about it mathmatically wont help much.
[17:49:15] <SBX> "mathematical"? ewww
[17:49:19] * SBX hides.
[17:50:17] <Colourless> the reason is things like flats will cause problems
[17:51:03] <Fingolfin> why so?
[17:51:07] <wjp> we could of course just project the bounding (3d) box on the viewplane, and determine the distance
[17:51:31] <Colourless> it's a bounding volume
[17:52:00] <Fingolfin> wjp: that's what I am thinking about
[17:52:03] <Fingolfin> Colourless: sure
[17:52:12] <Fingolfin> Colourless: you can order cubes, too, though
[17:52:13] <Fingolfin> :)
[17:52:14] <Darke> SBX: (indentation) Not likely. Probably not even at all. You'd have to keep track of the deltas as you change the values of the keys, and the line numbers of the files that are associated with each key, so you read in, and read out all the 'unchanged' lines, then only output the changed ones. That's about as close as I can think of getting it.
[17:52:20] <Fingolfin> and since we display it on a plane...
[17:52:22] <Fingolfin> hmm
[17:52:29] <Fingolfin> not correct, on a plane with a z-depth, sigh =)
[17:52:35] <wjp> Darke: how about just outputting everything indented?
[17:52:58] <Colourless> take for example a plaque on a wall
[17:53:00] * Fingolfin needs to wrap his mind around this properly first, ignore anything stupid he says (erhm... no I didn't mean*everything* :)
[17:53:02] <wjp> (2 spaces for each tree-depth level, or something)
[17:53:02] <Darke> wjp: That's how it works at the moment.
[17:53:04] <Fingolfin> Colourlessyeah
[17:53:08] <wjp> Darke: it is? oh, ok
[17:53:21] * wjp hasn't seen the inside of exult.cfg for a while...
[17:53:30] <Darke> wjp: One space currently for some reason, I always thought a tab would have been better... but such is life. <grin>
[17:57:26] * Darke is tempted to alter XMLnode::dump(), to output '<tag> value </tag>', rather then the current '<tag>nvaluen</tag>', it's more compact and IMHO readable.
[17:58:03] <Darke> s/nvaluen/\nvalue\n
[17:58:38] <Dominus> Fingolfin: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/content.php?id=37228
[17:58:43] <Dominus> flash content
[17:58:52] <Fingolfin> hum?
[17:59:07] <Kharza-kzad> well I dunno what you are debating, but god bless you guys :D Exult kicks ass
[17:59:11] <Dominus> just funny
[17:59:18] <SBX> Darke: zuh?
[17:59:34] <Dominus> Kharza-kzad: we are discussing many things at once
[17:59:58] <SBX> someone should write one of those "best software of 2002" articles or something about Exult :P
[18:00:00] <wjp> Kharza-kzad: a mixture of our current XML-like parser/dumper & the U8 map displayer we're working on on the side :-)
[18:00:09] <Darke> SBX: Currently tag/value output takes 3 vertical lines of space. I'm considering outputting it 'nicely' using one vertical line of space for the opening, value, and closing tag.
[18:00:49] <Kharza-kzad> cool, I was trying to get my hands on a map viewer that was out there but I could never find it. Back when I was into that sort of thing
[18:00:59] <SBX> Darke: Ah yes I did not notice your typo replacement :)
[18:01:06] <Kharza-kzad> then I stumbled across a guy that has all the original source so I gave up my search
[18:01:15] <Kharza-kzad> dude never gave it to me though
[18:01:18] <SBX> Darke: or i was unsuccesful in parsing the slashes and gave up too soon :)
[18:01:23] <wjp> Kharza-kzad: Jason Ely?
[18:01:28] <Kharza-kzad> hahaahha yes
[18:01:45] <SBX> Jason Ely has the original source?
[18:01:49] <Dominus> yep
[18:01:55] <Darke> SBX: Not actually a typo, it's my silly irc client that insists upon interpreting 'special' characters in actions, but not in normal text. <sigh>
[18:01:56] <wjp> yeah, he's one of the U8 programmers
[18:01:58] <Kharza-kzad> one of them is not complete
[18:02:13] <Kharza-kzad> I think black gate he doesn't have the whole thing, but he has most everything else
[18:02:15] * SBX \ncoughs\n.
[18:02:33] * Dominus wonders why his task switching on XP is not working properly at the moment
[18:02:35] * wjp nods
[18:02:37] <Kharza-kzad> he got it from zurovec who had it all on a cd I think and loaned it to him
[18:02:41] <SBX> Jason Ely has the U7 source?
[18:02:45] <wjp> he did say he knew someone who had the BG sources, though
[18:03:01] <Kharza-kzad> yea but good luck getting it hehe I pestered him for a year
[18:03:20] <Dominus> Kharza-kzad: you shouldn't have done so probably
[18:03:23] <Kharza-kzad> I also made my boss tear his house apart looking for his old source (tony bratton) but he never found anything
[18:03:36] <Kharza-kzad> exboss
[18:03:58] <Kharza-kzad> dominus: Yea I probably got on his nerves or something
[18:04:19] <wjp> Guest Codes.....Tony Bratton, .....
[18:04:23] <wjp> s/Codes/Coders/
[18:04:24] <SBX> Darke: the current format could be easier to read for extra long values
[18:04:27] <wjp> (SI credits)
[18:04:34] <Kharza-kzad> Tony wrote the voodoo mem manager hehe
[18:04:41] <Kharza-kzad> Tony B
[18:04:43] <wjp> also on the BG credits
[18:04:54] <Dominus> yeah, dreaming of having the source for BG, SI, U8 is nice
[18:05:03] <Kharza-kzad> He was my boss at Digital Anvil where I used to work.
[18:05:04] <SBX> yeah, dreams are nice
[18:05:18] <Dominus> so Tony was responsible for that evil thing :-)
[18:05:39] <Kharza-kzad> yea poor guy is the object of many people's hatred I'm sure hehe
[18:05:41] <Colourless> so, if you had theh u7 source, what would you do with it>
[18:06:18] <Kharza-kzad> Well back then I was trying to get it for a girl that worked at origin. They were going to release it to the public
[18:06:32] <Dominus> I would only brag about it on all channels (including Ultima newsgroups) :-)
[18:06:32] <Kharza-kzad> Then I ran across you guys and so I was gonna try to get it to you too hehe
[18:06:39] <Kharza-kzad> But I never got it
[18:06:51] <Dominus> he he
[18:06:52] <Kharza-kzad> and of course I probably would have fiddled with it a bit
[18:06:52] * SBX throws source-code into the great Ultima flame and prays to the Voodoo Memory Manager God for it's sacred blessings and abundance of accessible address space.
[18:07:12] <SBX> the name 'voodoo' got to me :-)
[18:07:21] <Kharza-kzad> I'm too addicted to games these days to work on them
[18:07:25] <Dominus> so that was why Lady Moi said she would have the source at some time :-)
[18:07:30] <EazyCheez> now this is weird... how do I switch back to my own body once I've got the Water of Discipline?
[18:07:41] <Kharza-kzad> yes that was Lady Moi
[18:07:57] <Kharza-kzad> She works for Garriot now at his new place
[18:07:59] <Kharza-kzad> HUK!@
[18:08:04] <wjp> EazyCheez: should happen automatically
[18:08:24] <Dominus> Kharza-kzad: cool, some people wondered what became of her
[18:08:27] <EazyCheez> but when? I'm already back at the Dark Path
[18:08:38] <wjp> EazyCheez: uh oh...
[18:08:42] <Dominus> EazyCheez: i think you have to switch the same way as you switched before
[18:08:58] <Kharza-kzad> Dominus are you the guy I traded emails with way back? The original exult dude?
[18:09:00] <Dominus> (you are talking about Petra, right?)
[18:09:05] <EazyCheez> yeah Petra
[18:09:08] <Dominus> Kharza-kzad: nope
[18:09:14] <Dominus> you must mean Jeff
[18:09:17] <Kharza-kzad> Ok wasn't sure yeayea
[18:09:32] <Colourless> try to kill your own body
[18:09:32] <wjp> Dominus: really? I thought the books read something that the body switch was only temporary until you killed your old body?
[18:09:36] <Dominus> I'm the docs guy who knows closde to nothing about programming
[18:09:38] <EazyCheez> ok good
[18:09:45] <Colourless> granted that method leaves you with like no health
[18:09:45] <EazyCheez> lightning struck me and I switched back
[18:09:45] <Kharza-kzad> Yea I kept him updated on my failures on getting the source
[18:09:47] <EazyCheez> phew
[18:09:48] <EazyCheez> hehe
[18:09:55] * SBX has never seen DrCode in here(only know he comes here from the logs). :-(
[18:10:13] * Darke decides that sleep would be a Good Thing now. "Night all."
[18:10:17] <SBX> night
[18:10:19] <Dominus> night
[18:10:21] <Kharza-kzad> I always wanted to work on exult but I'm too much of a games addict. I never code in my spare time anymore
[18:10:21] <wjp> bye
[18:10:25] <Kharza-kzad> gnite darke
[18:10:26] <-- Darke has left IRC ()
[18:11:22] <Kharza-kzad> I must say it is beautiful though, sure has come a long way
[18:11:33] <Colourless> cya
[18:11:33] <Colourless> i bet the person who has the source is ken d
[18:11:53] <Dominus> wjp, EazyCheez: I'm pretty sure you have to do the switching with the machine again
[18:12:01] <Kharza-kzad> I worked with Ken in the past. I asked him about it and he says "uhhhhhh I'm not comfortable answering that question"
[18:12:11] <Dominus> Kharza-kzad: LOL
[18:12:14] <wjp> lol...
[18:12:17] <SBX> lol
[18:12:17] <wjp> that's clear enough :-)
[18:12:18] <Kharza-kzad> I didn't bug him any more about it but I was like WTF!?
[18:12:23] <EazyCheez> Dominus: nope, happened automagically with me :)
[18:12:33] <EazyCheez> lightning struck me and I switched back
[18:12:45] <Dominus> bad I only have a savegame after the 2nd switch
[18:12:47] <wjp> Kharza-kzad: heh, did you work with the entire U7 team? :-)
[18:13:25] <Kharza-kzad> No just those guys and a few others at DA and some at Eclipse back when eclipse was around
[18:13:40] <Kharza-kzad> Dave Beyer did some design stuff on serpent isle, he's still at DA
[18:13:42] <Dominus> I think developers who worked for Origin are quite reluctant to give out the source. Bad work ethic, I guess
[18:13:50] <Kharza-kzad> Lead designer on the xbox brute force game, really cool guy
[18:13:51] <EazyCheez> now to go up to Monk Isle and the strangely furniture-free Abbey :)
[18:14:01] <Colourless> well, it's obvious he has it :-)
[18:14:01] <Colourless> probably not meant to have it too :-)
[18:14:10] <Dominus> right
[18:14:27] <Kharza-kzad> Most of them don't want to talk about it, like it was a bad memory
[18:14:59] <SBX> the voodoo manager is a vengeful god
[18:15:03] <Kharza-kzad> I'd have been happy to have worked on any of the 7's they are so cool
[18:15:05] <EazyCheez> for some reason I want to wait until my whole party's on the Serpent Gate before I teleport :)
[18:15:38] <Kharza-kzad> So, has anyone talked to Jason Ely lately?
[18:15:42] <SBX> Kharza-kzad: join exult team and work on them :-)
[18:15:49] <wjp> Kharza-kzad: Dominus, IIRC
[18:16:28] --- wjp is now known as wjp|dinner
[18:16:28] <wjp|dinner> bbl
[18:16:30] <Kharza-kzad> I think about it every few months but never do
[18:16:55] <Kharza-kzad> I don't live in austin anymore and he always said he'd bring the cd by
[18:17:08] <Kharza-kzad> He came by work a few times but never brought anything
[18:17:39] <SBX> up to date it has only cost $3,080,27 to produce Exult
[18:17:52] <Dominus> nope
[18:17:59] <Dominus> 3,080,278
[18:18:05] <Dominus> and that was some days ago
[18:18:29] <SBX> you typoed on the topic?
[18:18:38] <Dominus> no
[18:18:46] <Dominus> you typoed
[18:18:52] <Kharza-kzad> Where's all that money goin or come from? :D
[18:18:54] <SBX> i pasted
[18:19:08] <SBX> oh i pasteod
[18:19:11] <SBX> i see
[18:19:16] <SBX> yeah what i put isnt a number
[18:19:17] <SBX> hehe
[18:20:21] <Dominus> Kharza-kzad: that was just an estimation "generated using 'SLOCCount' by David A.
[18:20:21] <Dominus> Wheeler."
[18:20:30] <Kharza-kzad> whahah cool
[18:21:04] <SBX> i think Dancer posted it
[18:21:06] <SBX> ?
[18:21:14] <Dominus> right
[18:21:55] <Kharza-kzad> I think if I were to work on exult, I'd try to make a quest journal
[18:22:25] <Kharza-kzad> sort of planescape torment style
[18:22:25] <Dominus> well, that would come in handy
[18:22:42] <Dominus> come on join us :-)
[18:23:55] <Kharza-kzad> I'd better try to get it all to compile and run before I get grand aspirations :D
[18:24:18] <Dominus> Kharza-kzad: what OS?
[18:24:24] <Kharza-kzad> if I were to mess with it though it would be in times like this at work when I'm just goofin off
[18:24:36] <Kharza-kzad> hmm well I could do either windows or linux
[18:24:45] <Kharza-kzad> have both here at work
[18:24:52] <Kharza-kzad> don't have any linux machines at home
[18:24:52] <SBX> ok Kharza-kzad just volunteered, someone assign some bugs to him
[18:24:57] <Kharza-kzad> wahahah
[18:25:23] <Kharza-kzad> my 3 home machines run everquest and not much else
[18:26:13] <Dominus> all thre of them?
[18:26:32] <Kharza-kzad> my main machine is useless for any work. It's wierd it will play games for hours on end, but you try to write an email or do something productive and it locks
[18:27:04] <Dominus> he he
[18:29:01] <EazyCheez> hehe
[18:30:05] <EazyCheez> snapshots rock
[18:30:26] <EazyCheez> I have never run into a program like this which is updated on a daily basis
[18:31:07] <Dominus> he he, I just killed Dupre before the batlin/wall of lights sequence. kind of locks up at that scene then :-)
[18:31:28] <SBX> daily snapshots are used for lots of projects
[18:31:29] <EazyCheez> weird
[18:31:51] <Dominus> nope it isn't weird
[18:31:56] <EazyCheez> I bet that a lot of the things in Doug Morris's anti-walkthrough don't work anymore
[18:32:05] <EazyCheez> with Exult I mean
[18:32:07] <Dominus> Dupre is needed badly there
[18:32:12] <SBX> that anti-walkthrough is weird :)
[18:32:14] <Dominus> EazyCheez: some things work
[18:32:45] <EazyCheez> Dominus: usually Thoxa would come and bring all your companions at such a critical time
[18:34:12] <Dominus> yeah she does, but I told him to leave, went into attack mode and targeted him and before I could finish him off, Thoxa came and put him back into my party, then I killed him even though he was in the party... :-)
[18:34:15] --- wjp|dinner is now known as wjp
[18:34:25] <Kharza-kzad> hehe
[18:34:42] <Fingolfin> wjp: wb
[18:34:47] <wjp> thx
[18:34:52] <Fingolfin> wjp, Colourless: so the exult ordering is not working well at all?
[18:35:04] <Colourless> um, no
[18:35:22] <Colourless> doesn't seem to work
[18:35:37] <EazyCheez> ahhh
[18:35:39] <EazyCheez> wow
[18:35:56] <EazyCheez> that was pretty weird that you were able to do that
[18:36:53] <Dominus> yeah, you normally can't kill memebers of your party (except for explosions) but as I had targeted him before he joined the party he was still the combat target
[18:37:12] <SBX> im going to sleep, so you will all have to do without me for a few hours
[18:37:14] <SBX> later
[18:37:20] <wjp> bye
[18:37:21] <-- SBX has left IRC ("!")
[18:37:55] <Dominus> Fingolfin: another funny link in German: http://www.e-winzine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9680
[18:37:58] <Fingolfin> is CVS working for all of you? I can't get any CVS data from two SF projects
[18:38:25] <wjp> cvs update seems to work
[18:38:44] <Colourless> working here too
[18:38:48] <Fingolfin> weird
[18:38:58] <Fingolfin> must be my provider then, sigh
[18:39:56] <Fingolfin> weird thing is, I can get cvs from various sources, as long as they are not hosted on SF; but for any SF cvs I try to access, I get nothing
[18:41:36] <Dominus> hm, for me it doesn't work as well right now. It's not connecting it seems
[18:41:46] <Fingolfin> ok,just like me
[18:41:47] <wjp> tried a traceroute?
[18:41:51] <Fingolfin> maybe germany was cut off? :)
[18:41:56] <wjp> :-)
[18:42:10] <Dominus> and Austria :-)
[18:42:21] <Fingolfin> traceroute works
[18:47:02] <Dominus> now I get a bad host name. cvs.exult.sourceforge.net
[18:47:19] <Fingolfin> hmmmmm
[18:47:33] <Fingolfin> traceroute still works for me, but no CVS
[18:49:11] <Fingolfin> anyway: I was thinking about moving the Makefile to the top pentagram dir, chaning it accordingly to add support for muliple sub dirs
[18:49:49] <Colourless> fingolfin, probably a good idea
[18:49:57] <Colourless> the windows makefiles are already there
[18:50:08] <wjp> Fingolfin: how about writing a simple perl script/program to do something like automake does?
[18:50:20] <Fingolfin> hm, what do you mean? what should it do?
[18:50:40] <wjp> accept files like Makefile.am and build a non-recursive Makefile from them
[18:51:31] <Fingolfin> I think writing that script properly is more work than just doing it like I intend to do :) but we'll see, I want to give it a quick try
[18:51:51] <wjp> I didn't say anything about writing it "properly" ;-)
[18:52:39] <wjp> could be used to output a windows makefile at the same time
[18:56:32] <Dominus> works now
[18:57:14] <Fingolfin> for me, too
[18:57:26] <Fingolfin> anyway, I will look into this Makefile stuff a bit later, have some other important stuff to do first
[19:02:24] <Amy> Gack.
[19:03:25] <Amy> Note to self: Disconnect from stuff like this before going to bed.
[19:03:40] <Dominus> he he
[19:05:10] --> freedman has joined #Exult
[19:05:10] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to freedman
[19:05:33] <Dominus> whoohoo
[19:05:37] <Dominus> hi Jeff
[19:05:59] <freedman> Hi! Everyone's here (except Nadir)
[19:06:18] <Amy> It's.. The Man!
[19:06:22] <Dominus> and Patrick
[19:07:33] <freedman> Who's Kharza-kzad? Sounds like someone I emailed a while ago.
[19:07:44] <Colourless> hi
[19:07:55] <freedman> Hi.
[19:08:02] <Dominus> freedman: he said you were in contact to get som e source code :-)
[19:08:23] * Amy snags snapshot.
[19:08:34] <Amy> Time to begin the grand experiment.
[19:08:37] <freedman> That was quite a few people! I was a rea rl pest.
[19:09:20] <Dominus> earlier he said he was working with some people that used to work for Origin, including Ken Demarest
[19:09:34] <Amy> Oooo, name dropping.
[19:09:35] <freedman> Looking through my >old< email...
[19:09:55] <Fingolfin> hi jeff!
[19:10:04] <freedman> Perhaps Keneth Baird at digital anvil?
[19:10:09] <freedman> Hi Max!
[19:10:21] <Dominus> yeah, he said he worked at DA
[19:11:05] <Amy> How old is old, here, Jeff?
[19:11:34] <freedman> Amy: 05/22/00
[19:11:38] <Amy> Wanna see what the disruption period for your memory is. =>
[19:11:45] <freedman> Or are you talking about my age?
[19:12:00] <Amy> Nah, personal age is irrelevant.
[19:12:02] <Colourless> that's not that old. my email dates back to 1996 :-)
[19:12:28] <freedman> It just seems like a long time.
[19:13:19] * Amy snags libglade.
[19:13:47] <freedman> Your're going to try EStudio? Where's a rock for me to hide under?
[19:14:09] <Dominus> I'm quite curios of how it will work out
[19:14:11] <Amy> If this blows up, there ain't nowhere to hide. =>
[19:14:39] <Amy> Are there any docs for this, or am I going to rely on you guys to walk me through this?
[19:14:59] <freedman> I just write the code; doesn't mean I know how to use it.
[19:15:03] <Dominus> the FAQ may be of some help
[19:15:09] <freedman> :-)
[19:15:11] <Amy> ... I've heard that before.
[19:15:14] <Amy> Where have I heard that before?
[19:15:19] <Amy> Some quote...
[19:15:23] <Colourless> dominus writes the docs around here, and he can't use exult studio :-)
[19:16:07] <Amy> You can either be a good software engineer.. A good interface designer.. Or a good user. Or maybe two of the three.. But never all at once.
[19:16:08] <Fingolfin> probably a good thing
[19:16:09] <freedman> Anything in the FAQ about setting up the 'patch' directory? You need that if you want to save the updated map.
[19:16:20] <Amy> I remember seeing that on the mailing list.
[19:16:24] <Dominus> Amy, that wasn't meant rude. Jeff updated the FAq recently a bit and it might give you some ideas on what to do with it
[19:16:33] <Fingolfin> assume Dom would know... he could write some real good docs... then people would start using EStudio! OMG!
[19:16:59] <Colourless> then they would ask MORE questions :-)
[19:17:06] <Fingolfin> horrible!
[19:17:06] <freedman> ... assuming they're using Linux:-) (My secret plan for Linux world-domination...)
[19:17:08] <Colourless> ...that are already covered by the faw
[19:17:12] <Colourless> faq even
[19:17:12] <Fingolfin> and Jeff might have to work on it even harder
[19:17:24] * Amy shuffles off to compile a snapshot.
[19:17:33] * Fingolfin goes to try if EStudio still works on OS X
[19:17:45] <Fingolfin> hmm
[19:17:47] <Fingolfin> mapedit/Makefile.am:50: invalid unused variable name: `shapetest_LDADD'
[19:17:47] <Amy> Heeee.
[19:17:59] <Colourless> well, it compiles on windows, but that doesn't mean it works :-)
[19:18:18] <Fingolfin> tsk tsk
[19:18:19] * Amy snickers.
[19:18:24] <Colourless> i hear not even the quit menu item works :-0
[19:18:26] <Fingolfin> that Makefile.am is wrong of course =)
[19:18:31] <Fingolfin> lol
[19:18:33] <Amy> Okay, I haven't used IRC in a while. How do I register myself with nickserv?
[19:18:37] <Dominus> Amy: it is good that you are going to try out Estudio. As with Exult the real bugs and quirks are only revealed when someone really works with it
[19:19:15] <Fingolfin> Amy: /msg nickserv help
[19:19:26] * Amy nods to Dom.
[19:19:32] <Amy> I like breaking things, too.
[19:20:12] <Dominus> Amy: feel free to update me with things that should go into the docs/faq for Studio
[19:20:13] <freedman> Ryan: You should be able to add objects by using shift-left-click instead of dragging.
[19:20:32] <Dominus> freedman: nope, doesn't work
[19:20:54] <Amy> ...
[19:20:57] <Dominus> studio chokes on selecting the static fdir
[19:20:58] <Amy> Okay, that was pretty stupid.
[19:21:11] <Amy> Somehow I managed to set autogen.sh with rx permissions for everyone but me.
[19:21:21] --- Fingolfin is now known as Fingolfin|dinner
[19:21:26] <freedman> Didn't that use to work?
[19:21:30] <Dominus> freedman: maybe the dir stuff is linux specific
[19:21:54] <Dominus> freedman: before it wouldn't do anything. Now it crashes studio
[19:21:57] <Amy> Oh, did anyone fix the configure bug for checking for libglade when not building estudio?
[19:22:07] <freedman> Shoudn't be. But I think Nadir wrote that.
[19:23:07] <freedman> Is Kharza still here? I wanted to ask about what working in the game industry is like.
[19:23:46] * Amy would say 'random'.
[19:23:49] <Dominus> well he never said he was leaving
[19:24:23] <Amy> I have a question.
[19:24:24] <freedman> Maybe he's at work (like I am).
[19:24:33] <freedman> Amy: Do you know anything about it.?
[19:24:36] <Amy> Why does configure have 'exult-studio-support' and 'exult-studio'?
[19:25:07] <freedman> Exult has code that acts as a server for EStudio.
[19:25:30] <Amy> Ah.
[19:25:36] <freedman> ... maybe we could patent that idea.:-)
[19:25:41] <Colourless> exult can be compiled without exult studio support.
[19:25:55] <Colourless> they are 2 separate programs
[19:25:57] <Amy> Last time I tried that, Colourless, I had to hack files. =>
[19:26:12] <Colourless> heh
[19:26:35] <Amy> This time I /have/ libglade, so ... =>
[19:26:46] * Amy watches her CPU load. Wheee.
[19:27:05] <Amy> This is the part where the MP3 player skips.
[19:33:08] * Amy whines, "The walking animation is wrong!"
[19:33:12] * Amy goes back to work.
[19:33:35] <Amy> Looks like I won't quite have enough time for this right now; I have to leave for work in about 40 minutes.
[19:34:32] <Colourless> why, what's 'your' problem with it :-)
[19:34:35] <freedman> If your're in my timezone, that's around noon.
[19:34:48] <Amy> I'm in EST.
[19:35:35] <Amy> Update for the FAQ. It should mention 'libglade' in the requirements for 'What do I need to run it?'
[19:36:44] <Dominus> noted
[19:37:13] <freedman> We also need to describe the 'patch' directory. I'll try to write something tonight.
[19:37:59] <Colourless> patch directory is fun. use bg patch on si and see what happens :-)
[19:38:34] <Dominus> :-)
[19:39:19] <freedman> Bad:-)
[19:39:21] <Kharza-kzad> Hey Jeff yea it's me gday
[19:39:33] * Kharza-kzad was off workin
[19:39:36] <freedman> K.B?
[19:39:40] <Kharza-kzad> yeayea
[19:39:54] <freedman> Where are you working now?
[19:40:02] <Kharza-kzad> I'm not at DA anymore and didn't reroute my email. I'm at Transmeta in cali now
[19:40:11] <Kharza-kzad> Not doing games at all anymore hehe
[19:40:22] <Amy> Heh.
[19:40:42] <freedman> Cool. So you work with Linus?
[19:41:00] <Kharza-kzad> He's here but he's not in my group hehe.
[19:41:24] <freedman> What do you do there?
[19:41:59] <Kharza-kzad> I hack sort of. Help with making things work, fix stuff that is broken. All software of course
[19:42:13] <Kharza-kzad> use alot of softice, alot of bus analysers. It's a wierd fun job
[19:42:22] <Kharza-kzad> Don't get to code much anymore though
[19:42:31] <Amy> Dang it.
[19:42:33] <Amy> Jeff?
[19:42:36] <freedman> A lot different than doing games, I'd imagine.
[19:42:55] <freedman> Yes?
[19:42:59] <Amy> This is the third time I've pulled a snapshot and had it complain that files are from the future.
[19:43:17] <Amy> How's this coming about?
[19:43:26] --- Fingolfin|dinner is now known as Fingolfin
[19:43:29] <Kharza-kzad> Amy: Is your clock synched up good? :D
[19:43:31] <freedman> It used to be my fault...
[19:43:58] <Colourless> are you sure your date and time are correct?
[19:44:06] <Amy> When I say 'future', I mean by a day or more.
[19:44:06] <freedman> But I've been careful lately to keep the clock set right (machine seems to boot up in GMT)
[19:44:23] <Amy> In this case, I've got files an hour or so later.
[19:44:26] <freedman> Let's blame sourceforge:-)
[19:44:33] <Kharza-kzad> I gotta run back to work a bit but anyway like I was tellin the others Exult lookin damn good :D Good work and stuff
[19:44:41] * Kharza-kzad ran off
[19:44:45] <freedman> Thanks!
[19:44:49] <Amy> Dang it.
[19:44:52] <freedman> Amy: Which files
[19:44:58] <Amy> I tried to do a make install, and now it's recompiling half the dang thing.
[19:45:13] <Amy> My scrollback for my term isn't going back far enough to see the warnings, they just kinda fly by.
[19:45:25] <Amy> shapevga.h
[19:45:58] <Amy> That's the only thing popping up right now.
[19:46:13] * Amy is tempted to just go through and touch everything, and be done with it.
[19:46:47] <freedman> Er... I did check that in last night.
[19:47:10] <freedman> It was about 12 hours ago.
[19:47:29] <Amy> All of the makefile.am things seem to be in the future, too.
[19:48:04] <freedman> I only changed the one in mapedit.
[19:48:09] <Amy> make[1]: *** Warning: File `Makefile.am' has modification time in the future (2002-01-10 22:04:38 > 2002-01-10 14:44:10)
[19:48:18] <Amy> Yep, that one.
[19:48:37] <Amy> I said 'all' before realizing it was just warning me a bunch of times for the mapedit makefile.am.
[19:48:57] <Amy> That's pretty weird. In a make clean, it goes into mapedit like four times.
[19:49:14] <freedman> I'll check my machine when I get home. Sorry if it's my fault (maybe I should blame SuSE:-))
[19:50:24] * Amy starts the build again, having touched a few things.
[19:50:43] <Amy> Well, I'm definitely not going to have time to play with it before work. =>
[19:50:51] <Dominus> he he
[19:51:10] <Amy> That's okay, it'll give me something to do around 2am when I can't sleep.
[19:51:12] <EazyCheez> Amy Sage?
[19:51:33] <Amy> No. c.c
[19:51:35] <Dominus> where can people get libglade? (for the FAQ)
[19:51:45] <EazyCheez> ahhh
[19:51:50] <Amy> It's available from gnome, or any place that packages gnome stuff.
[19:52:07] <Amy> I got mine from linuxpackages.net, but I use Slackware, and those are pretty much all slackware packages.
[19:52:30] <Dominus> phew, I#ll just say it is needed then
[19:52:37] <freedman> I always look on freshmeat.net for stuff like that.
[19:52:41] <matto> freedman!!!
[19:52:48] <Colourless> edited yesterday by jeff
[19:52:48] <Colourless> i think i'll be off now
[19:52:50] <Dominus> ok, freshmeat it will be then
[19:53:03] <Dominus> sleep well
[19:53:32] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("bye")
[19:53:44] <Amy> Freshmeat scares me.
[19:54:16] <Amy> I touched the 'mapedit' directory and the 'shapes' directory. I don't seem to be getting other time paradox incidents.
[19:54:49] <freedman> Those are the two I worked on last night. Now where's that rock...
[19:55:16] <Amy> Heee.
[19:55:22] <Amy> Don't worry, I won't hurt you much.
[19:55:40] <Amy> And yeah, I'll blame SuSE too.
[19:55:46] <freedman> 3 timezones should provide some safety
[19:55:48] <Amy> I used to have weird time problems with their stuff.
[19:56:02] <Amy> Then I got tired of the icky nasty YaST.
[19:56:23] <freedman> Sacrilege!:-) I love YaST.
[19:56:48] <Amy> I'm getting warnings in ucfunc.cc.
[19:56:51] <freedman> ... but I can see why you use Slack. I hardly ever get RPM's anymore.
[19:57:11] <Amy> There's no poing in RPMs unless they were made for your specific distro and version.
[19:57:15] <Amy> Point, even.
[19:57:40] <Amy> Heck, I had bizarre dependency and file path problems when I was installing RPMs on RED HAT!
[19:57:50] <freedman> Yes. And my SuSE 6.2 is hopelessly out-of-date now.
[19:57:55] <Amy> I've got that.
[19:58:35] <Amy> My big issue with YaST is that all the documentation out there assumes you're editing the file directly for stuff, and it's hard to get YaST to leave things alone.
[19:58:56] <wjp> hi Jeff
[19:59:01] <freedman> Yes; that has happened to me.
[19:59:06] <freedman> Hi wjp!
[19:59:23] <Amy> I went to Linux for control, and I came to the conclusion that YaST was a step back from that goal.
[19:59:29] <Amy> Hence slackware.
[20:00:30] <Amy> But this isn't the time nor place for distro evangelism.
[20:00:36] * Amy watches the compile.
[20:00:38] <freedman> I last tried slackware... think it was on my 486 around 1994. I may give Debian a try next.
[20:00:47] <Amy> Heeeeeee.
[20:00:56] <Amy> Amusingly...
[20:01:01] <Amy> Slackware hasn't changed much in the last five years.
[20:01:06] <Amy> I first tried it in 96.
[20:01:09] <freedman> Amy: Aren't you supposed to be at work?
[20:01:20] <Amy> No, I still have 20 minutes.
[20:01:31] <freedman> Don't want Exult blamed for getting you in trouble:-)
[20:01:31] <Amy> Before I leave.
[20:01:36] * Amy snerks.
[20:02:00] <Amy> Yeah, let's add my $8.50 an hour to our tally of wasted money.
[20:03:07] <freedman> :-)
[20:03:53] <Amy> The patch stuff is mentioned in the FAQ, so you know.
[20:04:02] <freedman> Tell them to give you a raise, or you'll go over to the Exult project where the money is better.
[20:04:07] * Amy cackles.
[20:04:32] <Amy> The odds of me getting a raise are pathetically low.
[20:04:36] <Amy> I do tech support.
[20:04:45] <wjp> ooh.. tech support...
[20:04:51] <Amy> You're expected to burn out and go away before a raise is necessary.
[20:04:53] * wjp works at the helpdesk at my math. department
[20:05:13] <freedman> Time for you to learn C++.
[20:05:19] * wjp is expected to graduate before a raise is necessary :-)
[20:05:29] <Amy> I don't like C++.
[20:05:33] <Amy> OO stuff hurts my head.
[20:06:07] <Amy> It's still saying there's clock skew.
[20:06:10] <freedman> Okay, then learn C
[20:06:19] <Amy> I technically know C.
[20:06:21] <wjp> or skip directly to asm :-)
[20:06:25] <Amy> I just don't have experience with it.
[20:06:28] <Amy> ASM makes sense, to me.
[20:06:33] <Amy> gamewin.cc
[20:06:43] <Amy> That's the last one.
[20:07:05] <Amy> It's only 20 mins in the future, at least.
[20:07:13] <freedman> Look in the .deps subdirector for gamewin.*
[20:07:30] <Dominus> isn't there some option to ignore clock skews?
[20:07:43] <Amy> There's a bandaid. =>
[20:08:02] <freedman> 'touch'
[20:08:08] <Amy> I've been doing that.
[20:08:20] <Amy> All I've been doing is touching source files.
[20:08:24] <Amy> gamewin.cc was the last one.
[20:08:34] <freedman> touch .deps/gamewin.*
[20:09:06] <Amy> Wasn't necessary.
[20:09:07] <freedman> ... or wait until tonight, when enough time has passed:-)
[20:09:19] <Amy> All I had to do was touch gamewin.cc itself.
[20:11:09] <Amy> I can't get studio to come up.
[20:11:37] <freedman> What happens?
[20:11:41] <Amy> Nothing.
[20:11:56] <Dominus> you did the stuff like it says in the FAQ 4.5?
[20:11:58] <freedman> You type 'exult_studio' and...
[20:12:10] <Amy> I was following the FAQ. It says to hit 'ctrl-alt-m'.
[20:12:11] * wjp wonders if we should delete Artaxerxes' latest post in the "Algebraic Number Theory" thread... :-)
[20:12:30] <wjp> Amy: for that to work exult_studio has to be in your PATH
[20:12:38] <Amy> It is in my path. It's in the same place as exult.
[20:12:49] <wjp> oh, you 'make install'ed?
[20:13:00] <Dominus> exult_studi.glade in data?
[20:13:02] <wjp> is the .glade file in the right place?
[20:13:30] <Dominus> wjp: change some line in Artaxerxes post?
[20:13:36] <wjp> Dominus: evil :-)
[20:13:38] <Dominus> actually leave it there :-)
[20:13:43] <Amy> Should be, because I typed 'exult_studio' in another term, and it came up.
[20:13:46] <wjp> (not that anyone will recompile...)
[20:13:50] <Amy> It looks like just the ctrl-alt-m thing is broken.
[20:14:22] <Dominus> wjp: I don't expect Toadsmoke to recompile :-)
[20:14:31] <freedman> Amy: Does ctrl-alt-m put you in map-editor mode?
[20:14:47] <Amy> No.
[20:14:56] <Amy> It does literally nothing.
[20:15:15] <wjp> if you press Ctrl-H, do you get the cheat help?
[20:15:34] <Dominus> maybe cheats are set to no?
[20:16:01] <Amy> Okay, it doesn't say that cheats need to be enabled in the FAQ. =>
[20:16:09] <Dominus> :-9
[20:16:13] <Dominus> nope it doesn't
[20:16:38] <Dominus> maybe ctrl-alt-m should be independant of the cheats flag?
[20:16:39] <Amy> There we go.
[20:16:51] <wjp> Dominus: well, it is kind of cheating...
[20:17:02] <Amy> Maybe it should only be enabled while exult-studio is running?
[20:17:07] <freedman> Woohoo! Our first guinea pig survives!:-)
[20:17:47] <Dominus> wjp: something should be done with it anyway...
[20:18:07] <Amy> In the meantime, just stick that in the FAQ. It's not like cheating is hard to enable.
[20:18:23] <Dominus> Amy: see, the first bug found in the FAQ relating to Studio :-)
[20:18:25] <wjp> another thing I just noticed: the menus are impossible to read at night
[20:18:49] <Fingolfin> he
[20:18:50] <Amy> Side effect of the stupid palette shifts.
[20:18:57] <Amy> My chunk browser is empty.
[20:19:02] <Dominus> wjp: maybe while menus are on set intravision cheat :-)
[20:19:22] <Dominus> Amy: remember the time :-)
[20:19:24] <Amy> Exult-studio just crashed.
[20:19:26] <Amy> ... gack.
[20:19:26] <wjp> Dominus: well, resetting the palette would kind of be cheating
[20:19:46] <wjp> what did the original do when you opened backpacks and stuff?
[20:19:52] <Amy> They were dark.
[20:19:55] <freedman> Amy: Make the window bigger to see the chunks.
[20:20:04] <Amy> It crashed, Jeff. I'
[20:20:08] <Amy> I'll have to do that tonight.
[20:20:16] <Amy> I was browsing the shapes.vga, and it just poofed.
[20:20:18] <wjp> Amy: what did you do before the crash?
[20:20:22] <Amy> Segfault.
[20:20:33] <Amy> I was going through shapes.vga, and it segfaulted.
[20:20:39] <Dominus> Amy: post needed updates to the FAQ to the mailing list when you find some more tonight
[20:20:57] <Amy> Sure.
[20:21:15] <Amy> In the meantime, I'd like to complain about the inconsistency of dropping objects.
[20:21:20] <Amy> They don't want to go where I put them.
[20:21:52] <freedman> Yes... that's possible.
[20:22:07] <freedman> The trickiness is in dealing with the z-coord.
[20:22:33] <Amy> How about in map-building mode, have it /show/ you with a square where it will end up when you release the button?
[20:23:10] <wjp> the difference in scale isn't helping either (when running exult scaled), I guess
[20:23:20] <Amy> Not scaled.
[20:23:21] <freedman> Good idea.
[20:23:52] <freedman> Yes, it's the scaling that makes it screwy. Maybe Estudio should also scale.
[20:24:15] <Amy> Whee! I feel useful!
[20:26:21] <freedman> Also, you can use the 'Edit at lift' setting to specify the minimum z-coord.
[20:26:26] <Amy> Yeah.
[20:26:28] <Amy> Oh.
[20:26:36] <Amy> I reloaded it. Set my static file.
[20:26:40] <Amy> Resized the window. Segfault.
[20:26:43] <Amy> Now I'm off to work.
[20:26:49] <wjp> bye
[20:26:53] <Dominus> bye
[20:26:54] --- Amy is now known as Amy|work
[20:27:17] <freedman> Wonder what broke...
[20:27:22] * wjp is surprised at this email...
[20:27:36] <wjp> Dominus: remember I said that my Otherland order was kind of cancelled?
[20:27:44] <Dominus> yeah
[20:27:48] <wjp> I just received a shipment confirmation...
[20:27:49] * Fingolfin can't compile exult
[20:28:05] <Dominus> wjp: strange
[20:28:15] <wjp> Dominus: yeah... I'm not complaining, though :-)
[20:28:17] <Fingolfin> actually, can't compile exult_studio
[20:28:19] <Fingolfin> _Receive_data__12Exult_serverRiRQ212Exult_server8Msg_typePUci
[20:28:19] <Fingolfin> _Send_data__12Exult_serveriQ212Exult_server8Msg_typePUci
[20:28:36] <Fingolfin> probably because I am not building an X11 version of exult?
[20:28:45] <freedman> Maybe...
[20:28:58] <Fingolfin> anyway, I can hack around this to be able to build exult_studio and run it anyway (albeit without direct hooking into exult currently)
[20:29:01] <freedman> That code is in the 'server' dire.
[20:29:04] <Fingolfin> at least I could in the past :)
[20:29:06] <Fingolfin> I know
[20:29:06] <Dominus> I'm going to include a screenshot of the upload check on the bug tracker in the FAQ and mention it on the Forum
[20:29:23] <wjp> Dominus: add a big red circle around it :-)
[20:29:34] <Dominus> I was going to
[20:29:38] <Fingolfin> the thing is, should it really behave like this? I though I would have to give --enable-exult-studio-support to break something... w/o it should have worked smooth
[20:30:01] <wjp> Fingolfin: what file exactly is causing problems?
[20:30:15] <Fingolfin> it tries to link exult_studio, giving the above error message
[20:30:20] <Fingolfin> I worked around this in the past with a hack
[20:30:34] <wjp> those are unresolved references or something?
[20:30:34] <Fingolfin> I just ensured it would provide the two functions, but empty, IIRC
[20:30:47] <Fingolfin> yeah
[20:31:01] <Fingolfin> ah that part got cut off (line started with a /)
[20:31:14] <Fingolfin> /usr/bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
[20:31:15] <Fingolfin> etc.
[20:31:33] <Fingolfin> from servemsg.h
[20:31:46] <Fingolfin> from servemsg.cc I mean
[20:32:29] <wjp> hmm... yes... the whole server/mapedit #define & Makefile stuff seems to need some revising
[20:32:35] <Fingolfin> indeed
[20:32:48] <freedman> Those 2 are under "#ifdef USE_EXULTSTUDIO". Was Exult compiled with ES support?
[20:32:57] <Fingolfin> --enable-exult-studio-support vs. --enable-exult-studio is not implemented right I'd say
[20:33:03] <Fingolfin> no
[20:33:06] <wjp> Exult can't compile with ES support when you're not using X, currently
[20:33:17] <Fingolfin> I used --enable-exult-studio but NOT --enable-exult-studio-support
[20:33:22] <Fingolfin> exactly
[20:33:26] <Fingolfin> that's why I didn't :)
[20:33:35] <wjp> the latter should be enabled automatically when building ES, I guess
[20:33:55] <Fingolfin> hmmm
[20:33:56] <wjp> and the hardcoded check for X should go
[20:33:57] <Fingolfin> no why?
[20:34:42] <Fingolfin> I can build & run exult studio, yet not enable estudio supprot in exult. seems legal & valid to me. plus it used to work, with a hack
[20:34:44] <wjp> no real reason, other than the current build system
[20:34:52] <Fingolfin> hm
[20:35:02] <Fingolfin> I'll rather do it like this: move the #ifdef inside the functions
[20:35:07] <Fingolfin> I'll try thjat
[20:35:16] <freedman> But ES links to the library build in 'server'.
[20:37:00] <Fingolfin> now what? if I replace the two dummy functions, then it can link
[20:37:08] <freedman> I've got to get my tire fixed. Bye all!
[20:37:13] <wjp> bye
[20:37:20] <-- freedman has left IRC ("Leaving")
[20:38:53] <wjp> how about having --disable-exult-studio-support disable communication bilateraly?
[20:39:04] <wjp> so it would also disable the communication code in ES
[20:39:32] <Fingolfin> sounds good I guess... if it is necessary?
[20:40:13] <wjp> replacing Send_data and Receive_data with dummy functions is probably equivalent
[20:40:41] <Fingolfin> anyway, just launcehd exult_studio
[20:54:51] <Dominus> http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a9848357/exult/sfbug.jpg
[20:55:21] <Dominus> okay?
[20:55:31] <wjp> I wonder if the German button will confuse some people ;-)
[20:55:55] <Dominus> oops
[20:57:37] <Dominus> damn can't change that...
[20:57:53] <wjp> hehe, you really don't have to :-)
[20:58:06] <ashp> Anyone happen to know the item number for lockpicks?
[20:58:12] <ashp> I'm getting fed up walking around trying to find some :)
[20:58:27] <Dominus> ashp: forget lockpick, gewt the skeleton key
[20:58:31] <wjp> 627
[20:58:37] <ashp> Dominus: I didn't know there was one :)
[20:58:47] <Dominus> which game are you playing?
[20:58:51] <ashp> serpent isle
[20:58:59] <ashp> hmm, according to the cheat screen, 'create item' doesn't work anyway
[20:59:02] <ashp> so I guess that's not going to help
[20:59:06] <ashp> back to walking around I guess :)
[20:59:22] <Dominus> it works, via the shape browser and ctrl-c
[20:59:25] <wjp> use Ctrl-B + Ctrl-C for creating items
[20:59:33] <wjp> (ie. Ctrl-B, find item, Escape, Ctrl-C)
[20:59:52] <ashp> Ahhhhh, I see
[20:59:55] <Dominus> and the skeleton key is on catskill island
[21:01:06] <Dominus> at hex coords 0645,08c4,00 in the corpse,
[21:01:50] <Fingolfin> Dominus: you can change the langauge SF is displayed
[21:01:54] <Dominus> with that you don't need the lockpicks anymore
[21:02:00] <Fingolfin> Dominus: just log in, go to your user options, and switch to english
[21:02:15] <Dominus> Fingolfin: true but not for buttons that are displayed via IE
[21:04:10] <wjp> strange that the submit button is english and the browse button german
[21:04:45] <Dominus> the browse button is an internal function that gets calle din IE, I guess
[21:04:48] <wjp> hmm, although the submit text is probably generated by SF
[21:06:15] <Fingolfin> ic
[21:06:40] <Dominus> and i don't feel like installing an english browser
[21:07:20] <wjp> <input type="file" name="input_file" size="30">
[21:09:07] <Dominus> Fingolfin: btw, is it possible to make the referes display the subname instead of something like http://exult.sourceforge.net/faq.php#N180
[21:09:27] <Fingolfin> hu?
[21:09:47] <wjp> ie. like faq.php#snapshots ?
[21:09:54] <Dominus> right
[21:10:02] <wjp> oh, there's a typo on the line above that, btw
[21:10:05] <wjp> "availlable"
[21:11:25] <Dominus> oh, only two l in the whole word
[21:12:00] <wjp> ?
[21:12:47] <Dominus> available not availlable
[21:12:57] <wjp> yeah
[21:13:07] <Dominus> two l in that word :-)
[21:13:12] <Dominus> not three
[21:13:37] <wjp> I somehow missed the 'l' behind the 'b'...
[21:13:41] <wjp> :-)
[21:13:53] <wjp> ..which reminds me... I should go to bed :-)
[21:13:58] <wjp> g'night
[21:13:59] <Dominus> Fingolfin: I want to be able to link from docs to faq. The way it works now it changes everytime I out in another sub
[21:14:07] <Dominus> bye
[21:14:15] <-- wjp has left IRC ("[x]chat")
[21:14:27] <Fingolfin> hm
[21:14:33] * Fingolfin scratches head
[21:15:37] <Fingolfin> should be possible, I guess
[21:15:40] <Fingolfin> let's try
[21:15:54] <Fingolfin> I don't have an XSLT app installed right now, but I can tell you what to do
[21:15:59] <Dominus> ok
[21:15:59] <Fingolfin> edit html.xsl
[21:16:05] <Fingolfin> find the template for "ref"
[21:16:07] <Dominus> yo
[21:16:18] <Dominus> k
[21:16:19] <Fingolfin> in there you see <a href="#{generate-id(key('sub_ref',@target))}">
[21:16:38] <Fingolfin> we don't want to use generate-id but rather plugin @target directly...
[21:17:02] <Dominus> k, how
[21:17:09] <Fingolfin> hrm, now if I could remember the syntax how to do that... but anyway, let's first find all places we want to change =)
[21:17:36] <Dominus> ref1 and ref2 as well
[21:18:14] <Fingolfin> yeah, but I am wondering about some other things right now, too - has been long I dabbled with this :)
[21:18:31] <Dominus> hi hi
[21:19:14] <Fingolfin> in the TOC templace
[21:19:21] <Fingolfin> <xsl:for-each select="sub">
[21:19:27] <Fingolfin> <a href="#{generate-id(key('sub_ref',@name))}">
[21:19:30] <Fingolfin> -> has to be changed, too
[21:19:52] <Fingolfin> hmm
[21:19:58] <Fingolfin> I wonder if just removing the generated-id would work
[21:20:01] <Fingolfin> can you try that?
[21:20:03] <Dominus> all that have generate-id
[21:20:57] <Dominus> what'S with group templates
[21:20:58] <Dominus> ?
[21:21:12] <Dominus> section I mean
[21:21:24] <Dominus> ah, no that should be okay
[21:21:33] <Fingolfin> one step after the other =)
[21:23:09] <Dominus> which generate-id do you want me to delete?
[21:24:48] <Dominus> if I delete just the one in toc sub-ref I get
[21:25:27] <Dominus> file:///D:/User/Exult/xml/docs.html#(key('sub_ref',@name))
[21:42:26] <Fingolfin> hm
[21:42:31] <Fingolfin> that's wrong obviously
[21:42:38] <Dominus> yep
[21:42:40] <Fingolfin> I need to look a tht XSL docs
[21:44:16] <Fingolfin> hm
[21:44:30] <Fingolfin> the only reason you want to do this is to make it possible to reference between FAQ and readme?
[21:44:37] <Fingolfin> or also to reference from other places?
[21:44:47] <Dominus> no, actually just the two
[21:45:12] <Fingolfin> ah
[21:45:16] <Dominus> the problem is the way it is done now it changes the refs everytime it gets generated
[21:45:22] <Fingolfin> yeah of course
[21:45:38] <Dominus> even if you point someone from the forum it may have changed the next time someone looks at it
[21:46:08] <Fingolfin> I was thinking about adding proper cross-file code - XSL supports references to entities in other documents. Alas, on the long run, "human readable" names have the advantage of allowing links from some where else
[21:46:12] <Fingolfin> exactly
[21:46:52] <Dominus> yup
[21:53:35] <Fingolfin> hm I think I may have found a way
[21:54:51] <Dominus> shoot
[21:55:16] <Fingolfin> replace <a href="#{generate-id(key('sub_ref',@target))}"> with
[21:55:22] <Fingolfin> <a><xsl:attribute name="href">#<xsl:value-of select="@target"/></xsl:attribute>
[21:55:31] <Fingolfin> only this for know to see if it works at all :)
[21:56:03] <Dominus> in toc template
[21:56:05] <Dominus> ?
[21:56:19] <Dominus> or ref?
[21:58:03] <Fingolfin> ref
[21:58:06] <Fingolfin> or in either
[21:58:12] <Fingolfin> doesn't matter really, just for testing
[21:59:51] <Dominus> in ref it doesn't change anything in toc it produces only empty #
[22:04:42] <Fingolfin> grmbl
[22:05:21] <Fingolfin> ok, so try: <a>#<xsl:value-of select="@target"/>
[22:05:37] <Fingolfin> this will certainly not give the desired result, but I want to see if it outputs sane values
[22:06:24] <Dominus> argh
[22:06:29] <Fingolfin> ?
[22:06:42] <Dominus> in toc it doesnt produce clickable links anymore
[22:06:49] <Fingolfin> yeah sure
[22:06:53] <Fingolfin> no href =)
[22:07:04] <Fingolfin> I only want to see, does it output the text "#LinkName" or not?
[22:07:08] <Fingolfin> in the HTML source
[22:08:33] <Dominus> #1.1. What is Exult?
[22:09:43] <Dominus> should be #whatis_exult right?
[22:10:05] <Fingolfin> yeah, hmmm
[22:10:17] <Fingolfin> ok, that gives us a hint that something is wrong in my thinking :)
[22:10:47] <Fingolfin> where is this? TOC ?
[22:10:52] <Fingolfin> or ref
[22:11:23] <Dominus> this was toc
[22:12:55] <Fingolfin> but inside the select="sub" I assume?
[22:13:09] <Fingolfin> can you show me how your code looks now for that part?
[22:13:21] <Fingolfin> ouch wait a sec
[22:13:27] <Fingolfin> it must be @name there and not @target =)
[22:13:48] <Dominus> i'll try that one
[22:15:29] <Dominus> with : <a>#<xsl:value-of select="@name"/> in toc and ref I get
[22:15:37] <Dominus> #whatis_exult1.1. What is Exult?
[22:15:44] <Dominus> much better
[22:17:26] <Fingolfin> ok
[22:17:38] <Fingolfin> can you now put the xsl:attribute stuff back?
[22:17:45] <Dominus> I've set ref to the way it was "originally" (doesn't change anything in this behaviour)
[22:17:51] <Fingolfin> <xsl:attribute name="href">#<xsl:value-of select="@name"/></xsl:attribute>
[22:18:42] <Dominus> phew
[22:18:44] <Dominus> that did it
[22:18:49] <Fingolfin> ah goodie!
[22:20:46] <Dominus> ok, for section in toc?
[22:21:17] <Dominus> it says <a href="#{generate-id(key('section_ref',@title))}">
[22:24:52] <Dominus> ok solved myself :-)
[22:25:12] <Dominus> oh
[22:25:38] <Dominus> link name is okay but not set in the html. e.g. does nothing when clicked on it
[22:26:45] <Fingolfin> so, how does the HTML look like?
[22:26:59] <Fingolfin> show me a link, and a target
[22:28:26] <Dominus> <a href="#whatis_exult">1.1. What is <em>Exult</em>?</a>
[22:28:46] <Dominus> <a name="N9B">1.1. What is <em>Exult</em>?
[22:30:26] <Fingolfin> that's wrong of course
[22:30:32] <Dominus> :-)
[22:31:07] <Fingolfin> we didn't fix the sub template yet
[22:31:26] <Fingolfin> it currently has <a name="{generate-id()}">
[22:31:45] <Dominus> yup
[22:31:47] <Fingolfin> but should be: <a><xsl:attribute name="name"><xsl:value-of select="@name"/></xsl:attribute>
[22:31:55] <Fingolfin> I think, something like this at least =)
[22:32:55] <Dominus> that worked
[22:34:25] <Dominus> ok, section stuff done as well by me
[22:34:47] <Dominus> on to ref
[22:35:56] <Fingolfin> now that uses @target
[22:36:02] <Fingolfin> otherwise it should be similiar
[22:36:35] <Dominus> works
[22:38:16] <Fingolfin> good
[22:38:55] <Dominus> works in all instances of ref (ref,1,2) now
[22:38:57] <Dominus> thanks
[22:40:11] <Dominus> much better now
[22:41:42] <Fingolfin> as always it has been a pleasure of working with you :)
[22:41:53] <Dominus> :-)
[22:41:57] <Fingolfin> my secretary will send you the bill within the next 7 days, payment as usual
[22:42:25] <Dominus> our tally in the topic increased a bit already :-)
[22:43:43] <Dominus> ok, expect crosslinks in the next "big" update of docs and FAQ
[22:45:25] <Dominus> if chm files wouldn't be too platform specific (I guess needs some Windows only files not just IE) I would consider doing one
[22:45:25] <Fingolfin> neat
[22:45:46] <Fingolfin> ?? chm
[22:46:11] <Dominus> it is some windows help format that uses html files
[22:46:29] <Dominus> with index to the left and the content to the right
[22:48:18] <Dominus> http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a9848357/exult/chm.jpg
[22:49:06] <Dominus> I may be doing one in the future anyway to see how that works
[22:49:20] <Fingolfin> for the windows version it might be useful, for the others not
[22:49:54] <Dominus> yeah
[22:51:07] <EazyCheez> AAAAAAAAAAARGH!
[22:51:17] <Dominus> ?
[22:51:32] <EazyCheez> Another random crash, occuring as I was walking down the stairs to get Sethys in the Temple of Tolerance
[22:51:47] <EazyCheez> they always seem to happen most when I walk down stairs
[22:51:56] <Dominus> random? or always happening?
[22:52:00] <EazyCheez> but not always when I walk down stairs, just sometimes
[22:52:11] <Dominus> with this stair always?
[22:52:15] <EazyCheez> no
[22:52:29] <EazyCheez> I walked down it before when I turned into a snake much much earlier
[22:52:54] <Dominus> did you do it with the same res?
[22:53:02] <EazyCheez> sorta frustrated cuz I had performed the ritual of emotion and cut down that exploding pillar etc
[22:53:18] <EazyCheez> yeah, 320x240 is the best, it seems
[22:54:03] <Dominus> oops, on to fix the php.xsl as well
[22:54:18] <EazyCheez> eh?
[22:54:39] <Dominus> not meant for you, actually more for Fingolfin, but just as an information
[22:54:52] <Fingolfin> Dominus: hehe
[22:54:59] <Fingolfin> Dominus: and text.xsl :)
[22:55:02] <Fingolfin> oh wait no
[22:55:06] <Fingolfin> that has nothing
[22:55:06] <Dominus> he he
[22:55:09] * Fingolfin rolls eyes
[22:55:18] <Dominus> we don't do linking in the text file :-)
[22:55:21] <Fingolfin> hm, I'd like to merge the php and HTML variants someday
[22:55:38] <Dominus> and just strip the php with make?
[22:56:42] <EazyCheez> any of you ever played Gran Turismo 3? Pretty dang awesome game
[22:56:52] <Dominus> nope
[22:57:17] <Fingolfin> nope
[22:57:20] <Fingolfin> Dominus: nope
[22:57:20] <Fingolfin> :)
[22:57:22] <EazyCheez> racing game... very impressive in its graphics and sound
[22:57:31] <Dominus> Fingolfin: hrmpf :-)
[22:57:35] <Fingolfin> Dominus: the thing is, they are almost identical, so I'd like to make use of that somehow =)
[22:58:04] <Dominus> EazyCheez: don't like racing games (don't like races in real life for that matter)
[22:58:12] <EazyCheez> ah
[22:58:28] <EazyCheez> how about Metal Gear Solid 2? :)
[22:58:32] <EazyCheez> awesome game, that
[22:58:57] <Dominus> not much time to play games lately
[22:58:58] <EazyCheez> or Final Fantasy X or Grand Theft Auto 3... those are the four games for PS2 that I OWN :)
[22:59:07] <Dominus> I have a bunch of games to play first
[22:59:26] <Dominus> and I don't have a PS or PS2
[22:59:38] <EazyCheez> ahhh
[22:59:56] <EazyCheez> pretty much A-list games
[23:00:13] <EazyCheez> only one I don't have that I really want is Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
[23:00:32] <Dominus> I also don't like most of the console style saving
[23:00:34] <EazyCheez> I'd also like to get some more RPGs that were released for PSX
[23:01:13] <EazyCheez> Dominus: I'm probably gonna get Half-Life for PS2 even though I already have the PC version... and it does have save-anywhere features (wow)
[23:01:28] <EazyCheez> And probably Capcom vs. SNK 2: Mark of the Millenium
[23:01:52] <Dominus> ah and those fighting games just plain suck (IMO)
[23:01:55] <EazyCheez> fighting games, fps's... oh, Jak and Daxter too of course, awesome 3D platformer
[23:02:19] <Dominus> one is nice, a second one might be okay as well but those many fighting games are just pointless
[23:02:25] <Kharza-kzad> Soul calibur 2 should be a fine fighting game
[23:02:46] <EazyCheez> wonder if it'll be ported over to PS2? or is it gonna be GC only?
[23:02:57] <Dominus> (with fighting games I mean those two players games in some sort of contest)
[23:02:59] <Kharza-kzad> both and xbox so they say
[23:03:07] <EazyCheez> ah
[23:03:24] <EazyCheez> well I'm probably gonna get that too\
[23:03:38] <Kharza-kzad> I will buy a console when that comes out
[23:03:45] <EazyCheez> I wanna get the best in all the genres :)
[23:03:51] <Dominus> and after Quake and Unreal I'm not into FPS games as well (always more of the same)
[23:03:54] <EazyCheez> Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance :)
[23:05:30] <EazyCheez> I also wanna get a GameShark and a SharkPort 2... the former of course being a cheating add-on for PS2 (though I'll only use it when I need it, I swear) and the latter being a device you can use to manage memory cards with the PC :)
[23:09:48] <Dominus> Fingolfin: you know when I did the unofficial FAQ life was so much easier
[23:09:55] <Dominus> I just had to update one file
[23:10:14] <Dominus> now I have to update exult module
[23:10:19] <Dominus> web module
[23:10:27] <Dominus> and the webpage as well
[23:10:41] <Dominus> :-)
[23:10:56] <Dominus> numerous changelogs
[23:11:38] <Fingolfin> Dominus=)
[23:11:43] <Fingolfin> hmm
[23:11:44] <Fingolfin> well
[23:11:57] <Fingolfin> a) maybe we should move the FAQ to the web module?
[23:12:11] <Fingolfin> b) we could "mirror" the FAQ dir into the web module, I guess
[23:12:22] <Dominus> would be a good idea
[23:12:22] <Fingolfin> c) how about a script that automates this stuff
[23:12:32] <Fingolfin> or a combination of these
[23:12:59] <Dominus> script no way - not another thing I'm going to learn just because matto once told me to do the FAQ
[23:13:04] <Dominus> he he
[23:13:40] <Dominus> no I think logically it is best as it is now
[23:13:46] <Fingolfin> lol
[23:14:03] <Dominus> these are the exult docs so these should be in the exult module
[23:15:11] <Dominus> one day, when I find a way to strip the php files off the unnecessary things I'll automate all this :-)
[23:23:04] <matto> Dominus!!!
[23:23:14] <Dominus> matto!!!!
[23:23:45] <Fingolfin> matto!!!!
[23:23:50] <matto> Fingolfin!!!!
[23:24:05] <Fingolfin> hey, I got one more exclamation mark than Dominus! ha!
[23:24:29] <Dominus> bah
[23:26:19] * matto grumbles
[23:29:59] <Dominus> Fingolfin: in which dir should I put the bug report screenshot in the web module?
[23:30:43] <Fingolfin> into images
[23:30:45] <Fingolfin> I think
[23:31:09] <Dominus> me too
[23:31:58] * Dominus notices he has to update all the FAQ related stuff again
[23:32:16] <Dominus> damn
[23:32:50] <Fingolfin> why?
[23:33:17] <Dominus> I pointed to images/screenshots but that doesn't make sense
[23:33:22] <Dominus> images does
[23:33:43] <Dominus> he he
[23:40:43] <Dominus> Fingolfin: images have to be added as binary?
[23:41:03] <Fingolfin> yeah... uhmm.... I hope i did that for the images... hmmmm
[23:41:20] <Dominus> he he, no
[23:47:20] <Dominus> Fingolfin: someone didn't gave write access to the webpage files
[23:47:40] <Fingolfin> *cough* who would do such a horrible thing? *cough*
[23:47:42] <Dominus> didn't give
[23:48:12] * Dominus wonders how Fingolfin's personal score looks for today
[23:48:26] <Fingolfin> what do you mean, no group write access, it is all just fine!
[23:48:30] <Fingolfin> look again, dude!
[23:48:36] * Fingolfin tries to keep his poker face
[23:49:08] * Dominus is amazed, Fingolfin is right, mysteriously they have write access again :-)
[23:49:43] <Fingolfin> just stop these false accusations, you are not being virtous!
[23:50:58] <Dominus> Fingolfin: are you going to fix the non-binary images in the web module?