#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 10 Sep 2006 (GMT)

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[02:26:12] <wizardrydragon> It seems that bit more quiet here when it was so active earlier.
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[06:03:27] * servus skewers Baastuul like the legendary pincushion of Antespin n'Slaanti
[06:04:28] * wizardrydragon hands Servus an assortment of vegetables and some seasoning of various varities.
[06:04:51] <Baastuul> Oh, no, not headache medicine and Dungeons & Dragons monsters all in one except with butchered variations of their names!
[06:06:02] <wizardrydragon> Im afraid if that was a joke, I missed the humour in it.
[06:08:17] <wizardrydragon> Especially since the proverbial dead horse that is D&D jokes is quite beaten already.
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[06:26:17] <wizardrydragon> Greetings, SB-X.
[06:30:08] <Baastuul> I guess I should explain the references I was making. Also, I wasn't trying to make a joke. I was mainly just referring to "Antespin n'Slaanti" as said by servus.
[06:30:30] <Baastuul> "Antespin" is very similar to "Antaspin," the initial name for an imaginary city of mine.
[06:30:40] <SB-X> Hello, wizardrydragon.
[06:30:49] <Baastuul> I changed the name from Antaspin to Antasovar because, according to servus, Antaspin sounded like a type of headache medicine.
[06:31:00] <Baastuul> "Slaanti" reminded me of "Slaadi" from D&D.
[06:31:34] <wizardrydragon> Slaadi?
[06:31:58] <wizardrydragon> Sounds like a horribily mispronounced "salad"
[06:32:07] <SB-X> What does the n' mean?
[06:32:23] <wizardrydragon> I assume it's a contraction for "and"
[06:33:06] <Baastuul> No, if it were a contraction for "and," then it would not be connected to "Slaanti."
[06:33:26] <Baastuul> It is an orthographical attachment to refer to a slight sound used in the naming of whatever this n'Slaanti is!
[06:34:12] <wizardrydragon> I still think it is a salad that's mispronounced.
[06:34:28] <Baastuul> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaad
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[06:35:41] <wizardrydragon> Okay, so it's a killer salad.
[07:08:36] <servus> I didn't know you changed the name to Antasovar
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[07:27:45] <SB-X> I didn't know Baastuul was chaotic neutral.
[07:27:52] <Dalian> hola
[07:28:28] <SB-X> hello
[07:29:01] <Dalian> so..I'm having mixed success so far. I don't think I quite understand how a few things work yet..hehe
[07:33:10] <SB-X> Dalian: I responded to your last post on the forum. I don't know how to delete the current map.
[07:33:18] <SB-X> The ENTIRE map.
[07:33:32] <Dalian> yeah it's kind of problematic
[07:33:34] <SB-X> by delete i meant replace everything with water
[07:33:36] <SB-X> why?
[07:33:42] <SB-X> just edit over things :)
[07:33:56] <Dalian> hmm
[07:34:18] <SB-X> or make a new map and worry about it later
[07:34:29] <SB-X> you can add a teleport egg to go from britannia to your new map
[07:37:34] <Dalian> what about game flags and all that though?
[07:38:44] <Dalian> I've been talking with my best friend about converting his Hero fantasty campaign into an Ultima-type game. But it's an entirely different world
[07:41:38] <SB-X> i dont know if there is a way to edit the initial flags, but you can hexedit the file they're in
[07:42:49] <Dalian> I think it's possible to have the avatar start out somewhere else, like in the SourceForge Island example. I'm thinking the intial part was played through, and the initgame state saved after moving the avatar to the island. Something like that.
[07:43:07] <Dalian> I did notice that if you hit save while in edit mode, it saves the game state but doesn't create a 'save game'
[07:44:16] <servus> There's a tool to convert a 192x192 image into a U7MAP
[07:44:18] <Dalian> like I decided the SI graphics would be preferable over BG. But there's the whole opening thing to deal with
[07:44:31] <SB-X> That's probably true, how the starting position was changed.
[07:44:54] <Dalian> yes I saw mention of that servus
[07:47:29] <Dalian> I think the way I was doing it, copying the vga files over into the new game, won't work in the long run anyway
[07:49:51] <Dalian> I'll just have to see how editing the current game works out
[07:50:12] <Dalian> tho that's a LOT of stuff to delete :p
[07:50:47] <Dalian> it doesn't seem that simply putting a new map file in patch will work. It's still expecting certain things to be there due to other files
[07:53:15] <servus> Alright, well if you need help making the map itself, let me know.
[07:53:38] <Dalian> that's the easy part in comparison to these problems :)
[07:54:17] <Dalian> LOL
[07:54:36] <Dalian> i deleted shamino and iolo, and they keep coming back
[07:58:05] <Dalian> That's weird..the beach you start out on in SI is duplicated 3 times, each one with more to it
[08:00:09] <SB-X> you get teleported between them when playing
[08:00:24] <Dalian> aye..I figured :)
[08:00:37] <Dalian> i just never realized it was doing that I guess
[08:03:01] <Dalian> it keeps readding them to the party..gotta be an egg doing that
[08:03:09] <Dalian> or usecode
[08:03:46] <Dalian> I think you're right tho..making a new map is probably the best way to go
[08:05:05] <Dalian> easiest, anyway
[08:06:16] <servus> It's so easy to forget where you put your quilting needle until you sit on it.
[08:06:42] <SB-X> Dalian: ok
[08:06:48] <SB-X> Dalian: did you try asking them to leave?
[08:07:11] <SB-X> hmm, or in SI maybe let the teleport storm get them ;)
[08:07:16] <Dalian> they won't leave at the start of the game.
[08:07:20] <Dalian> Yeah I was just thinking that :)
[08:07:26] <servus> I believe that you can set the "In Party" flag from the cheat menu.
[08:07:31] <servus> Go to the NPC editor for those NPCs.
[08:07:42] <Dalian> I tried editing that flag in ES with no luck
[08:07:58] <SB-X> What about the Exult cheat screen?
[08:08:03] <Dalian> didn't try that yet
[08:09:16] <Dalian> yes that seems to do the trick
[08:13:10] <Dalian> and it works! I started a new game, and I'm on the new map w/o party members. So far so good..hehe
[08:15:59] <Dalian> I love it when a plan comes together
[08:24:31] <Dalian> It seems a lot more stable than how I was doing it, too
[08:29:19] <Dalian> i swear, the original devs could have arranged the chunks more logically
[08:31:36] <SB-X> they probably just arranged them in the order they added them
[08:32:08] <SB-X> ES has the ability to sort chunks into groups, but doesn't include any presorted chunk groups!
[08:32:39] <SB-X> Wizardy Dragon has creating some chunk groups, however.
[08:32:42] <SB-X> created*
[08:32:52] <Dalian> yeah that's how it looks doesn't it? I noticed you can move them on the list, but I think that might mess up the ones that are already placed
[08:33:38] <Dalian> really? can that be downloaded?
[08:33:47] <Dalian> i noticed there is a Group for them but nothing in it
[08:34:29] <Dalian> much to my dismay ;)
[08:34:52] <Dalian> that would be tremendously helpful
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[08:36:36] <Dalian> i spend more time looking for the right chunk than anyway it seems
[08:36:42] <Dalian> *anything
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[08:40:52] <Dalian> i see how to make new groups now, but if someone's already done the work..
[08:41:51] <SB-X> i dont know where to download the groups file, you'll have to ask Wizardry when he comes to #exult again
[08:42:35] <SB-X> unless servus has the sorted chunk groups too
[08:45:16] <Dalian> looks like the file's called u7chunks.grp
[08:45:45] <Dalian> i wonder if he did it for both games tho
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[08:55:34] <servus> If I look up the format for u7chunks.grp, I could probably write a converter for my format
[08:55:43] <servus> What would you be using it for?
[08:58:26] <servus> I mean, what's the purpose of the ES chunk groupings?
[08:58:57] <Dalian> they are rather unorganized to begin with. Mountain chunks, forest chunks all over the place, etc
[08:59:27] <Dalian> it's not that hard to make new groups, so don't sweat it :)
[08:59:47] <Dalian> there's 3000 chunks but I only need groups for certain ones really
[09:00:32] <servus> Well, I already gave a type to all the chunks in BG, but for my own tools, which are not derived from Exult in any way. I might be able to do something with it, though.
[09:02:49] <Dalian> in ES I made a group called "Mountains" and added all the mountain-type tiles to it
[09:03:18] <Dalian> will have to do the same with roads, forests, beaches, etc
[09:03:46] <servus> I'm currently busy sewing, but I might be able to convert my format tomorrow :)
[09:03:57] <Dalian> i looked at the .grp file and expected something like xml, but it's binary
[09:04:48] <servus> Do you know which file and function opens the grp file?
[09:05:11] <Dalian> I've not done any real programming in years, so no..
[09:06:03] <Dalian> i once tried to write my own ultima-type game using the directx SDK, but I didn't get very far w/that. Too much for me..heh
[09:06:26] <Dalian> the world-building is more up my alley, if you will
[09:09:53] <Dalian> be nice if they could add mouse-wheel support to ES, to scroll though the browsers
[09:10:15] <Dalian> oh wait..it does work..just picky about it
[09:11:33] <servus> Heh :)
[09:11:47] <servus> What exactly are you doing right now? Building the base world, or just messing around with the U7 Map?
[09:12:08] <Dalian> i made a new map in SI for a new world
[09:12:46] <Dalian> I'm still figuring stuff out at the moment. I'm making a small area to try some stuff out
[09:13:07] <Dalian> see if I can get some usecode to compile for a new npc, etc
[09:13:25] <servus> OK.
[09:13:37] <servus> Let me know when you want the newest version of U7 Auto Mapper : o)
[09:13:45] <Dalian> wots that?
[09:13:52] <Dalian> the 198x198 thingy?
[09:18:48] <servus> A tool to take a 16-colour 192x192 image and produce a valid U7MAP, with all of the coasts and other interfaces between chunk types properly constructed./
[09:20:17] <Dalian> sounds useful..but drawing the 192x192 image sounds hard :\
[09:20:45] <Dalian> I'll have to look closer into how it works
[09:21:05] <servus> Certainly a lot easier than placing chunks manually : o) - The source map looks like this: http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/u7mapper-out-tfl01.gif
[09:22:01] <Dalian> ahh
[09:22:12] <Dalian> I take it the colors are explained in a doc?
[09:22:31] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/u7mapper-in.gif
[09:22:50] <Dalian> that does seem considerably easier for the large-scale aspect. Then it's just a matter of tweaking
[09:23:39] <Dalian> And it's pretty accurate? 192x192 isn't very high-res afterall
[09:23:54] <servus> There are 192 by 192 chunks in an Ultima 7 map.
[09:24:04] <Dalian> I did read about this program before, and it said there are 192x192 chunks
[09:24:10] <Dalian> heh..
[09:24:23] <Dalian> it works with both bg and si?
[09:24:57] <servus> Well, I haven't created a working database for SI, so it currently only works with BG. Converting it to SI as well wouldn't take a whole lot more effortl.
[09:25:15] <Dalian> ahh...because I decided the si tiles are more versatile
[09:25:58] <servus> Well, I should be coming out with an SI version of u7mapper soon.
[09:26:07] <Dalian> I wonder how much of a discrepancy there'd be if you tried to put a bg map into an si game. Depends on how far off the chunk numberings are I guess?
[09:26:57] <Dalian> yeah I will try and wait..anxious to get started but we do have some things to work out before getting to it
[09:27:59] <Dalian> it's going to be based on a campaign he's used for almost 20 years now, for a paper and dice game. We'll have to add more areas that didn't exist before, I'm sure
[09:28:05] <servus> I really don't know how different the chunks are between BG and SI. I haven't made a comparison
[09:29:44] <Dalian> just at a glance, I can tell they are pretty different
[09:30:14] <Dalian> at least you only have to worry about certain chunk types eh? :)
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[09:32:26] <Dalian> did I mention that Exult team rules?
[09:33:18] <servus> It matters whicUgh, you're right. Hugely different.
[09:35:30] <Colourless> for the most part, SI expands on BG so you'll find that many of the chunks are infact the same with the same numbers.
[09:35:47] <Colourless> but I don't really know for sure what all the specific changes are
[09:36:32] <servus> I just put BG's U7MAP into the SERPENT\STATIC directory, ran u7wizard, and everything is a huge mess.
[09:36:59] <servus> I think it'll entail me manually setting each chunk type again... maybe Wizardry has a chunks.grp file for SI
[09:37:36] <Colourless> just need to load 2 copies of Exult studio and view the chunk viewer
[09:37:57] <servus> Exult Studio... soon as I get it working :)
[09:38:07] <Dalian> servus: hehe
[09:38:13] <Colourless> anything that wasn't needed in SI was removed and replaced with new SI specific chunks
[09:38:26] <Colourless> anything that is the same between both should have the same index such as coasts
[09:38:40] <Dalian> I have it working really well now..quite stable too. It was my own fault before that it was crashing so much
[09:38:52] <servus> I'm referring to chunk indices, not necessarily availability.
[09:38:57] <servus> The only thing that looks unscathed is grey rock caves.
[09:39:34] <Dalian> for my testing purposes I decided to try and recreate the Knights Who Say Ni encounter :D
[09:40:08] <Dalian> complete with a quest to get a shrubbery
[09:40:12] <servus> Maybe 2/3 of the beach chunks...
[09:40:18] <servus> Cool, Dalian :)
[09:40:46] <Colourless> SI looks like it has 1 beach chunk per 'type' BG sometimes has 2
[09:41:07] <Colourless> there are no rivers in SI. Thier chunks are reused for other things in SI
[09:41:14] <Dalian> I suppose I'd better get the usecode part out of the way so I know I understand it. I've looked at the example but haven't tried compiling it yet or anything
[09:41:32] <Colourless> cave chunks should be mostly the same
[09:43:33] <servus> I think that using BG's U7MAP with the rest of the SI files should give a very good overview of the differences, right?
[09:43:46] <Colourless> :-)
[09:44:34] <servus> Wee, almost done sewing... Getting tired! How come you can sew fancy dresses in less than a second on UO?
[09:44:42] <Dalian> lol
[09:45:14] <Dalian> not to mention platemail armor :)
[09:45:37] <servus> That must have been murder to make.
[09:45:49] <Dalian> I mean in UO..hehe
[09:45:52] <servus> I think that entire groups of people took months to make a full suit of fancy plate.
[09:46:21] <Colourless> i'm going to say maybe 10% of the chunks are the same
[09:46:27] <Dalian> no doubt. I know it takes months just to make suits of chainmail
[09:46:42] <servus> Colourless: Yeah, bummer :(
[09:46:56] <Colourless> and of the rest maybe 0.1% have been renumbered. The other 89% is all new
[09:46:59] <servus> I already made a tool to chronicle the chunks though. Shouldn't take long.
[09:47:13] <Dalian> even if you only used one type of chunk for each terrain, it'd be a big help
[09:47:21] <servus> I type each chunk as "Snow", "Dirt", "Cave", "Grass", "Grassy Forest", etc
[09:47:24] <Dalian> then it's just a matter of polishing it
[09:47:37] <servus> Which all goes into a cross-referenced database used for the automapper!
[09:47:42] <servus> Now where did my zipper go...
[09:47:50] <Dalian> there's a large # of forest chunks in si..it's crazy
[09:48:46] <Colourless> hmm. SI swamps are quite a bit different to the BG ones, but still have the same general shape to the chunks
[09:48:56] <servus> BG swamps stink.
[09:49:07] <Colourless> vegitations quite different
[09:49:10] <servus> There is only one type of "bend" in the roads running through BG swamps.
[09:49:18] <servus> (North to east)
[09:49:37] <servus> SI swamps are fantastic, and the snow and ice is nice.
[09:50:13] <Dalian> that's why I decided to go with SI
[09:50:29] <Colourless> no desert though
[09:50:35] <servus> A pity
[09:50:37] <Dalian> true
[09:50:47] <Dalian> hmm
[09:50:53] <Dalian> I might have to make my own in that case :\
[09:51:11] <Colourless> otherwise SI has a much bigger variety of tile apperances
[09:51:16] <Dalian> aye
[09:51:24] <servus> Once the SI chunks are chronicled, I could write a tool to combine all of the chunks together, omitting chunks I deem "useless"
[09:51:33] <Colourless> has space and lava!
[09:51:41] <servus> BG has space
[09:51:54] <Colourless> but not land with space
[09:51:56] <servus> Remember the Time Lord's chamber, and inside the... tetrahedron?
[09:52:07] <servus> Hm yeah, dreamworld has some fun chunks.
[09:52:08] <Dalian> actually now that I think about it there's not a lot of desert in my friend's campaign. I might just luck out
[09:52:27] <servus> It'd be easy to write a new U7CHUNKS that combines the desert into SI's dataset, though.
[09:52:46] <Dalian> he has an entire world already made out..converting it to U7 will be a lot of fun
[09:52:54] <Colourless> should be able to use beach shapes to make destert chunks
[09:53:07] <servus> What do you mean?
[09:53:23] <servus> There is nothing-but-desert, desert-meet-mountain, desert-meets-dirt, and desert-meets-grass.
[09:53:23] <Colourless> beach has sand. desert is sand
[09:53:28] <Dalian> well for that matter, I could add the bg desert to si..but doesn't that create a distribution problem?
[09:53:36] <servus> Well yes, you definitely won't need to mess with the SHAPES.
[09:54:14] <servus> Could you get away with supplying a modified U7CHUNKS with Exult? It's pretty useless without the rest of the data.
[09:54:24] <Dalian> that's how I felt about it too
[09:54:32] <Colourless> IMO, it would be cool
[09:54:58] <Colourless> not sure if i'd make it part of exult, but probably an mod makers package or something
[09:55:03] <Colourless> it's not needed to run the normal games
[09:55:59] <Dalian> there's also not a moongate in SI, though that's not an issue in what I'd be doing
[09:56:16] <Dalian> well..just the red one
[09:56:41] <servus> There are many colours of moongates in SI
[09:56:54] <Colourless> Silver Seed has moongates
[09:56:56] <Dalian> oh right..frames! I keep forgetting :)
[09:57:10] <servus> Plus there was some other moongate... a white one?
[09:58:12] <Dalian> here's something I'm almost afraid to ask
[09:58:24] <Dalian> Is it possible, without losing one's sanity, to add new spells?
[09:59:31] <servus> How complex and different from existing spells would they be?
[09:59:41] <Dalian> not terribly. Is that controlled by usecode?
[10:01:53] <Dalian> i've been focused on the graphics aspect so far. I really need to fire up ucxt and see what the deal is so I don't have quite so many questions :)
[10:02:24] <Dalian> I did look at the source for sourceforge isle, but it seemed to be all npc dialogue (which is very helpful)
[10:58:32] <Dalian> hmm
[11:10:17] <Dalian> hehe! I totally missed you on the island the first time, Colourless
[11:12:16] <Dalian> i have a small question, if I might..
[11:14:51] <Dalian> i made an npc. I know you can't change their #, but I can't change his Usecode # either. It's grayed out. The ones on sf island aren't
[11:30:57] <Dalian> could have something to do with why he doesn't show up in the NPCs list
[11:46:08] <Colourless> normal npcs (numbers below 256 pr 128 i can't remember) can't have their numbers changed. but ones above that can
[11:47:07] <Dalian> ok..so how do you change its number? :)
[11:47:24] <Dalian> I did notice the ones on SF island have much higher ones
[11:47:38] <wjp> why do you need to give them a custom usecode number?
[11:48:07] <Dalian> if it's assigning an unused one, I don't
[11:48:42] <Dalian> i was just about to check to see if that's the case by tryin to make him talk w/that usecode #
[11:52:22] <Dalian> ooh..I think I see how the Dance of Passion was done, roughly..hehe
[11:59:22] <Dalian> oohh..I think I see what 'event' does. If you aren't talking to them etc, this is what they do?
[11:59:33] <Dalian> if event == 0
[12:00:07] <wjp> event indicates what triggered a usecode function to execute
[12:02:56] <Dalian> ok
[12:04:29] <Dalian> I've programmed before so some of this makes sense, but some of it doesn't yet. Coming along tho :)
[12:05:03] <Colourless> si usecode doesn't make much sense at the best of times
[12:05:16] <Colourless> they manage to do things with it that they weren't supposed to be able to do :-)
[12:05:27] <Dalian> hehe..great
[12:05:49] <Colourless> or more specifically, they did things that require such complex code that its difficult to understand
[12:06:16] <Colourless> BG really didnt do anything fancy with usecode, but SI with all its 'cutscenes' required lots of trickery
[12:06:38] <Dalian> yar..they did get quite carried away in SI
[12:08:30] <Colourless> usecode quite literally was originally the code that gets executed when you use an object.
[12:11:45] <Colourless> big pain with it is that it's single threaded and modal. So they created what we call 'usecode script'. A language within a language it allows scripting of simple sequences and callbacks.
[12:12:06] <Colourless> The usecode script was really abused by the SI scripters
[12:18:33] <Dalian> Good for us, and bad for us :)
[12:27:19] <Dalian> one more q for now..I looked and looked but can't find it in the usecode. I'm having a npc start off without the 'Met' flag checked, so their name doesn't show. Is that somehow set automatically after you've talked to them and asked their name, or simply from talking to them?
[12:28:29] <Dalian> or is that still a mystery? :
[12:38:26] <Colourless> in SI the met flag needs to be set manually
[12:38:44] <Colourless> in BG I set it automatically (since BG doesn't actually have the met flag)
[12:38:46] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("casts improved invisibility")
[12:46:17] <Dalian> uh oh
[12:49:04] <Dalian> is ucc supposed to be able to compile usecode.uc included with the sfisland patch or no?
[12:49:18] <Dalian> reading the docs for ucc, it's an entirely different format
[12:55:39] <Dalian> wait
[12:56:40] <Dalian> there we go...nevermind...
[12:57:48] <Dalian> had to have ucc in the exult folder, rather than tools, with the .uc file in same folder for it to work
[12:58:36] <Dalian> i remembered a post on the forum about that
[13:07:57] <Dalian> cool...got it working... :)
[13:08:09] <Dalian> sorry about all the questions..
[13:09:32] <Dalian> I'll worry about the met flag later..unless you can tell me now :)
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[13:12:24] <Dalian> let me guess..it has something to do with UI_set_item_flag
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[19:05:24] <SB-X> hi wizardrydragon
[19:08:29] <wizardrydragon> Hey
[19:10:34] <SB-X> earlier someone was asking for SI chunk groups in SI and I told him that you had a sorted groups file for SI chunks already
[19:11:00] <wizardrydragon> Umm
[19:11:02] <SB-X> yesterday
[19:11:03] <wizardrydragon> I have one for BG
[19:11:06] <wizardrydragon> Im not finished SI
[19:11:11] <SB-X> ah k, oops :)
[19:11:15] <wizardrydragon> Oops indeed.
[19:11:23] <SB-X> no big deal
[19:11:41] <SB-X> he's using SI because it offers more variety of chunks than BG
[19:12:06] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[19:12:15] <wizardrydragon> Mind you, it doesn't have that much more in the flats.
[19:12:27] <wizardrydragon> The map builders just were much better making the u7chunks.
[19:12:47] <wizardrydragon> (there are only a handful of new flat shapes - the snow, orphidian floor, and the lava)
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[20:52:18] <[KrusheR]> hi
[21:40:10] <SB-X> hello
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