#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 11 Sep 2001 (GMT)

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[01:45:37] <PoorCNewb> Hiya
[01:46:26] <PoorCNewb> I've downloaded the SDL runtime library (mingw32 source) and I need some help getting the libraries to run on my computer (in M$ OS)
[01:47:49] --- PoorCNewb is now known as Guild
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[01:52:05] <Guild> Hi
[01:52:16] <Guild> I've downloaded the SDL runtime library (mingw32 source) and I need some help
[01:52:16] <Guild> getting the libraries to run on my computer (in M$ OS)
[01:52:26] <Guild> (SOrry to hit you with that so sudden :)
[01:52:33] <Kefka> um
[01:52:50] <Guild> Nm, that was unusual enough as it is
[01:53:39] <Kefka> i run linux.. i don't know much about installing sdl on win32
[01:53:48] <Guild> Okay, nevermind then
[01:53:52] <Kefka> sorry
[01:53:57] <Kefka> maybe try lidsdl.org
[01:53:59] <Kefka> er
[01:54:02] <Kefka> libsdl.org
[01:54:06] <Guild> I don't think anyone else is here if you're looking for them
[01:54:20] <Kefka> nah.. i idle in here 24hrs
[01:54:35] <Guild> ?
[01:54:42] <Guild> Hmm,
[01:55:18] <Guild> Oh well, I'll go ask around the other channels
[01:55:20] <Kefka> also, there is the #sdl
[01:55:23] <Kefka> channel
[01:55:30] <Guild> Heh, excatly what I was looking for
[01:56:02] <Guild> Hmm, just so obvious I can't see it
[01:56:25] <Guild> I'll ask around here, thanx
[01:56:27] <Guild> Cya
[01:56:30] <Kefka> ok bye
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[12:15:04] <Colourless> hi
[12:43:22] <fingolfin> hi there
[12:43:30] <fingolfin> sorry was on the phone for about 25 minutes
[12:43:34] <Colourless> :)
[12:44:11] <fingolfin> fixing remotely some javascript problems in automatically generated dreamweaver code, and all with somebody who has no idea about Javascript or programming (but at least about HTML)
[12:44:40] <Colourless> heh
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[13:42:35] <Dominus> hi
[13:42:40] <Colourless> hi
[13:42:42] <Dominus> are they crazy?
[13:42:52] <Dominus> crashing onto the World Trade Center
[13:42:58] <fingolfin> yeah
[13:43:08] <fingolfin> must have been terrorists
[13:43:22] <fingolfin> this is not where airplanes normally fly; it was perfect wheather; *two* airplanes
[13:43:26] <fingolfin> no accident
[13:43:34] <Dominus> canīt be an accident
[13:43:40] * fingolfin nods
[13:43:55] <fingolfin> a third airplane is approaching!!
[13:44:06] <Dominus> a palestinian group has allready announced that they did it
[13:44:23] <fingolfin> pentagon explosion
[13:44:25] <fingolfin> just happend
[13:44:26] * Dominus notes that those groups will all anounce it
[13:44:28] <fingolfin> woa
[13:44:36] <fingolfin> they are mad
[13:44:53] <Dominus> this will mean all out war against those terrorists
[13:45:04] <fingolfin> if this was really done by palestinians (which I would be careful with... it is possible to fake such things)
[13:45:13] <fingolfin> they are now evacuating the white house it seems
[13:45:20] <Dominus> I just saw the picture of the pentagon
[13:46:54] <Colourless> that is pretty stupid
[13:47:35] <Dominus> this will mean revenge on a large scale, I guess
[13:48:36] <fingolfin> I strongly doubt it was the PLO, it would be very stupid for them
[13:48:45] <fingolfin> they risk everything, with no possible gain
[13:49:27] <Dominus> yeah, PLO is much to clever for sth like this
[13:50:07] <Dominus> not clear yet, if it was a helicopter or plane that crashed on Pentagon
[13:50:24] <Dominus> and still a claim about a third plane
[13:52:02] <fingolfin> PLO contains many fanatics
[13:52:06] <fingolfin> fanatics are never clever
[13:52:18] <fingolfin> fanatics are fanatics, and have no logics
[13:52:32] <fingolfin> pentagon explosion was caused by a third airplane it seems
[13:52:40] <Dominus> true but the leaders are not responsible, I guess
[13:52:41] <fingolfin> all airplanes are supposed to be passengar planes
[13:53:16] <Dominus> the 1st one was definetly a boeing (747?)
[13:53:31] <fingolfin> #wtc
[13:53:38] <fingolfin> 737 or 747
[13:55:08] <Dominus> very scary
[13:55:27] <fingolfin> At this moment it is known that THREE planes have gone down. TWO at the WTC, one 767 out of Boston. ONE at the Pentagon. BOMB/FIRE in Washington square. ALL FLIGHTS HAVE BEEN HALTED US WIDE! Rumors of terrorist groups taking responsibility, no solid confirmation.
[13:55:37] <fingolfin> stock trade was stopped
[13:55:43] <fingolfin> all US travel was stopped
[13:56:51] <Dominus> but the whole attack has been quite well timed
[13:57:26] <Dominus> this will affect everyone on earth
[13:57:33] * Dominus in a very scared mood
[13:58:01] <fingolfin> what scares me most are all those US guys jabbering about war
[13:58:07] <fingolfin> yeah
[13:58:18] <Dominus> fingolfin: thatīs what I meant
[13:58:57] <fingolfin> yeah
[13:59:14] <fingolfin> alraedy 105 in #wtc :)
[13:59:32] <fingolfin> wtc tower is breaking down!
[14:00:08] <Dominus> US state department is rumored to have "exploded"as well
[14:00:18] <Dominus> fire at it
[14:01:46] <Dominus> wtf
[14:02:57] <Dominus> sears tower in chicago evacuated as well (security measure it seems)
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[14:05:41] <silverscale> I wonder what's next... suitcase nukes?
[14:06:19] <Dominus> if they had it, they would have used it allready, I guess
[14:06:46] <fingolfin> they will have to evac parts of Manhatten I think, the smoke will take away the air, and is probably toxic
[14:06:47] <silverscale> I sure hope the US doesn't go to war with some Middle Eastern country over this
[14:07:40] <Dominus> phew
[14:07:49] <fingolfin> yeah
[14:08:03] <fingolfin> no gain by starting blindly a war; first they need to know more
[14:08:10] <fingolfin> another explosion in manhatten it seems
[14:08:16] <Dominus> I hope mr.texas knows that
[14:08:21] <fingolfin> .....
[14:08:22] <fingolfin> yeah
[14:08:36] <fingolfin> Bush Jr. ... I didnīt think of him... uh-oh
[14:08:46] <Dominus> scary thought
[14:09:23] <Dominus> the group that claimed the attack has renounced
[14:09:36] <fingolfin> yeah
[14:09:52] <Dominus> "democratic front for freeing palestina" or sth
[14:09:58] <silverscale> "We did it!!! We did it!!! No wait, our mistake, it wasn't us..." :-)
[14:10:21] <Dominus> They got scared by the scale of the attack
[14:10:50] <silverscale> I suspect someone else claimed responsibility *for* them
[14:11:40] <Dominus> It really scares me thinking of Georgie with his red buttons
[14:12:27] <silverscale> Conspiracy Theory: the US government is responsible for all this, so they have an excuse to go to war once again
[14:12:45] <Dominus> no way
[14:13:03] <Dominus> they would have exploded a bomb at the white house for doing that
[14:13:19] <fingolfin> =)
[14:13:29] <fingolfin> or isreal did it to blame the palestinians :)
[14:13:51] <fingolfin> but I canīt believe that: they would risk being discovered... and the possible gains is nto as much as the possible losss
[14:14:02] <Dominus> but leave the goernment out of it and put some dissatisfiefd Americans into that
[14:14:13] <fingolfin> then again, the isreali and the palestinians are very closely related, high-heated heads, easily forgetting logic
[14:14:24] <Dominus> logic, whatīs that?
[14:16:13] <Dominus> there is nothing to gain by an attack like that
[14:28:45] <Dominus> oh, my
[14:28:50] <fingolfin> secopnd tower down!
[14:28:56] <Dominus> just saw it
[14:29:06] <fingolfin> gosh
[14:30:26] <Dominus> carbomb outside of state department caused fire there
[14:31:00] <fingolfin> first tower apparently collapsed due to an explosion in the lower leveles
[14:31:07] <fingolfin> they have planned this for month, if not years
[14:31:18] * Dominus nods
[14:31:22] <fingolfin> sort of impressive.... donīt get me wrong
[14:31:48] <Dominus> it is
[14:33:49] <Dominus> Iīm so glad they couldnīt get their hands on some nukes
[14:35:08] <fingolfin> yeah
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[14:40:35] <Dominus> part of pentagon collapsed as well now
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[14:45:15] <fingolfin> but only a small part
[14:45:25] <fingolfin> it has multiple layers after all
[14:45:44] <fingolfin> there are rumousr about a 4th plane, a 747 in pensylvania or washington
[14:46:08] <Dominus> yeah, heard about that one
[14:49:20] <fingolfin> I hear F16īs are patroling now
[14:49:31] <fingolfin> and I heard that at least 2 more planes have been hijacked
[14:49:52] <fingolfin> the problem is, it will be hard to intercept them... if they want they can just crash anywhere, and in any case, those are passengar planes
[14:49:54] <fingolfin> how horrible
[14:50:18] <fingolfin> imaginge you have to shoot down a full loaded passengar plane to protect more lives
[15:07:15] <Dominus> this must really be horrible
[15:21:35] <fingolfin> I better get offline and do some work now
[15:21:36] <fingolfin> cya
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[15:27:57] <Nadir> hi
[15:27:57] <Dominus> hi
[15:48:22] <Nadir> you don't say, lilo
[15:52:04] <Dominus> ?
[15:52:09] <Colourless> hi
[15:53:51] <Kefka> jesus
[15:54:22] * Dominus nods
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[15:55:25] <Nadir> dominus: did you see the global notice by "lilo" ?
[15:57:03] <Dominus> Nadir: nope
[15:57:42] <Dominus> what was it?
[15:57:46] <Nadir> I guess he's one of the admins at openprojects.net. He said "Hi all. Please bear with us as some off-topic discussion continues today. Needless to say, people in the US in particular may be very preoccupied. Thanks."
[15:58:15] <Dominus> didnīt get it
[15:58:53] <Nadir> gotta go
[15:58:57] <Dominus> cu
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[16:00:34] <Colourless> i got it, but didn't see it :)
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[17:22:17] <wjp> hi
[17:22:24] <Dominus> hi
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[18:16:02] <freedman> Hi
[18:16:04] <Dominus> hi jeff
[18:16:07] <sethion> hi
[18:17:06] <freedman> Kind of wierd to see the net functioning so normally.
[18:17:30] <sethion> yeah, with all those terorrism actions and all
[18:17:43] <freedman> Everyone wonders if there's more to come.
[18:19:03] <sethion> I've stopped following the news things when they repeated it for the 6th time here..
[18:19:13] <freedman> Where are you?
[18:19:17] <sethion> netherlands
[18:19:22] <sethion> 4 houses away from wjp
[18:19:53] <freedman> I was wondering if European sources had any additional info.
[18:20:15] <freedman> Nobody here seems to know any more than they did 3 hours ago.
[18:20:16] <sethion> nope, we get the CNN breaking news on almost every channel right now
[18:20:23] <sethion> same here
[18:21:27] <Dominus> little additional info from the Austrian television
[18:21:46] <Dominus> mostly cnn stuff but they have their own people at washington, too
[18:21:47] <freedman> Everybody is full of conjectures. Mine is that it could be a domestic group. Some of them are pretty nasty.
[18:22:07] <sethion> if they are terrorists, why don't they make a demand or something?
[18:22:21] <sethion> they've kinda shown what they're capable of right now..
[18:22:53] <freedman> Maybe they just want to kill people. Probably the same if their from the outside.
[18:22:55] <Dominus> and some interesting interviews with austrians who live in NY. One worked in the WTC (23rd floor) but had missed a subway train therefore was late
[18:23:16] <freedman> Wow. Like missing a plane that crashed.
[18:23:20] <sethion> lucky him
[18:23:31] <freedman> What did they have to say?
[18:23:50] <Dominus> probably just the same as your cnn interviews
[18:24:06] <Dominus> he arrived just when the 1st plane crashed
[18:24:22] <Dominus> then ran away and tried to find a phone
[18:24:24] <freedman> What's scary is that planes could be hijacked so successfully.
[18:24:58] <Dominus> your domestic flights are pretty insecure as far as I know from personal views
[18:25:26] <freedman> Yes. Bored personnel looking for obvious weapons.
[18:25:41] <Dominus> international flights are always very tightly secured but the domestic ones are really insecure
[18:25:53] <Dominus> but itīs the same here as well
[18:26:22] <freedman> Could have been employees involved. All it would take is one to hide weapons on the plane.
[18:27:13] <Dominus> I just heard from a cellphone call from the 4th plane. one phoned from the toilet: we are hijacked
[18:28:04] <sethion> the 4th crashed in a potato field, right?
[18:28:14] <freedman> That must have been the one that crashed outside Pittsburgh. I'd guess the pilot must have kept control long enough to do that.
[18:28:16] <Dominus> freedman: I donīt think itīs that impossible for someone who works for an airplane company to hide a weapon on board. just maintenance worker could easily do that
[18:28:33] <sethion> this is beginning to sound a bit like that movie Arid Force 1
[18:28:34] <Dominus> freedman: either that or the air force tok it down
[18:28:37] <freedman> Yes. Which means they could do it again.
[18:30:31] <wjp> hi Jeff, Guus
[18:30:42] <sethion> damn...bg crashed
[18:30:44] <sethion> damn
[18:30:46] <freedman> Almost makes one nostalgic for the Cold War...
[18:30:47] <sethion> bg crashed
[18:30:52] <sethion> bg
[18:31:02] <sethion> woops sorry
[18:31:07] <sethion> hi wjp
[18:31:13] <freedman> Heh. That's okay...
[18:31:16] <freedman> Hi wjp.
[18:31:28] <sethion> my scroll bar wasn't working
[18:31:33] <wjp> was just downstairs watching some tv...
[18:32:10] <sethion> let me guess..a plane crash?
[18:32:24] <wjp> ...
[18:32:27] <freedman> A fifth? Saw a rumor just now.
[18:33:00] <wjp> there's probably rumours about nearly everything happening right about now
[18:33:09] <Dominus> right
[18:33:40] <Dominus> I just hope Bush holds his horses and doesnīt shoot at the next availlable target
[18:33:59] <freedman> Yea. I don't have a lot of confidence in him.
[18:34:04] <sethion> hmm
[18:34:11] <freedman> But there doesn't seem to be a clue as to who did it.
[18:34:17] <sethion> there's a horse's head sticking through a wall in britain
[18:34:31] <Dominus> more the cause to worry about his actions
[18:37:07] <sethion> hmmm
[18:37:26] <sethion> exult seems to crash every time I try to buy 40 loves of bread at the pub
[18:37:55] <Dominus> probably a weigth / fill up problem
[18:37:57] <freedman> Sounds like a nice, reproducible bug. Is this the latest snapshot?
[18:38:17] <sethion> day-before-yesterday's snapshot. I'll download the latest
[18:38:33] <freedman> BTW: I think I've fixed the teleporters, finally.
[18:38:35] <sethion> but I think Dominius is right..all packbacps are full and weight to max
[18:38:43] <Dominus> I think Exult doesnīt handle it well if your inventory is too full and you buy sth
[18:39:03] <sethion> was just thinking about the same, dominus
[18:39:06] <Dominus> freedman: cool teleporter
[18:39:14] <freedman> Yea, I was fiddling with that a couple days ago. If you like, submit a bug with a savegame.
[18:39:20] <sethion> teleporter? I thought they worked? works fine for me
[18:39:32] <wjp> some worked a little too well :-)
[18:39:37] <Dominus> freedman: that assertion failed bug in the tracker is very valid
[18:39:40] <freedman> Either they failed on stairs, or they worked when they shouldn't (cheats).
[18:39:53] <sethion> I'll try to put some stuff out of my backpack and see what happens first. if it still crashes, I'll submit it to the trakcer
[18:39:55] <freedman> Haven't looked at the bugs today.
[18:40:22] <wjp> sethion: submit it anyway. a crash is a crash
[18:40:39] <Dominus> yeah and what only changes is the amount when it will crash
[18:40:42] <Dominus> I guess
[18:40:43] <freedman> Another bug fixed: wierd actions when you equip wands. Turns out that only a few items (in BG) have usecode for being equipped, so we should filter out the rest.
[18:41:10] <sethion> I know wjp, but then I'll (and you) possible know the what's causing it (weight-overload)
[18:41:29] <Dominus> freedman: what actions?
[18:41:37] <wjp> knowing what causes it is all the more reason to submit a report :-)
[18:42:20] <freedman> We (okay, maybe just I:-)) tend to forget about bugs that aren't in the database.
[18:43:00] <Dominus> he he, I noticed that (thatīs why I mentioned the tempereture check in the tracker)
[18:43:25] <freedman> Say... did anyone ever finish SI?
[18:44:01] <sethion> not in exult.. :( (yet)
[18:44:11] <Dominus> nah, the last time I tried I was stopped by the gwanni bug and other stuff that was fixed in a new game. therefore I started again
[18:44:22] <Dominus> I did finish the original 3 times
[18:44:32] <freedman> :-)
[18:45:03] <freedman> I'm planning on playing it soon.
[18:45:20] <Dominus> prepare for bugs :-)
[18:45:33] <sethion> I'm still trying to finish BG, but everytime I seem to make any progress there's some major bug which requires me to start all over again with the lastest patch
[18:45:48] <freedman> :-) I found lots when I played BG in Exult.
[18:45:56] <Dominus> the problem with corrupted savegames is very annoying now
[18:46:01] <sethion> I'm still finding lots.. (sorry)
[18:46:19] <Dominus> though I only had one corrupted savegame ages ago
[18:46:38] <Dominus> sethion: donīt be sorry! itīs good to find them
[18:46:44] <freedman> What's really frustrating is that I can't get it to happen myself.
[18:46:59] <Dominus> me neither
[18:47:13] <freedman> But... that wand bug was causing startup problems.
[18:47:39] <Dominus> ok
[18:47:41] <sethion> wasn't drink used as food in the original?
[18:47:58] <freedman> I thiink so, but it wasn't worth much.
[18:48:07] <Dominus> it was. It isnīt in Exult right now
[18:48:21] <sethion> now when I press the 'f' key (feed), drinks aren't used, only food
[18:48:23] <freedman> Hmm... that's handled purely in Usecode.
[18:48:44] <Dominus> only problem is that in SI you could use the everlasting goblet with "f"
[18:48:48] <sethion> ok..trying overweight-buying bug with latest snapshot now..
[18:48:52] <freedman> Oh, okay. But you should be able to feed drinks with the mouse.
[18:49:06] <Dominus> that works okay
[18:49:08] <sethion> you can, but 'f' is so much nicer
[18:49:53] <sethion> do partymembers still fade out of hunger?
[18:50:06] <freedman> They should lose HP's.
[18:50:24] <Dominus> freedman: I think a feature request: in animated scenes in SI the npc in question should shed his weapons (like Dupre in Fawn trail, or Avatar in sex scenes)
[18:50:31] <freedman> We're probably not being severe enough, though.
[18:50:57] <freedman> Dominus: Makes sense. Does the original SI do that?
[18:51:20] <Dominus> Iīm not sure. I think it also showed the weapons in the sex scenes
[18:51:37] <sethion> hmm...somebody just bought a whole punpkin 3ce the size of his plate in the pub
[18:52:10] <freedman> That's my fault. But I think it's amusing:-) Sometimes they also get fed butter.
[18:52:28] <Colourless> hehe
[18:52:30] <sethion> Lucy of the pub sells bread for 1 goldppiece less then Jeanette
[18:52:56] <sethion> (even thought they both work at the same pub)
[18:52:58] <Dominus> freedman: when you watch the assertion fasiled bug in Fawn trial, also notice the render bug with Kylista where she is sometimes rendered below that construction where the defendent stands
[18:53:24] <freedman> Another Fawn Trial bug:-( What happened?
[18:54:03] <Dominus> thatīs the bug in bright red in the tracker: An assertion failed bug as happened when you crossed into the ice realms
[18:54:04] <freedman> Actually, I may have an idea... my latest 'improvements':-(
[18:54:27] <Dominus> in gewin.h
[18:54:30] <freedman> Okay... something to do tonight.
[18:54:37] <Dominus> äh, gamewin.h
[18:55:39] <freedman> Yes. The cause is generally elsewhere. I just hate watching that trial over-and-over.
[18:55:52] <Dominus> he he
[18:56:02] <freedman> In fact, I may add a key for modifying information speed:-)
[18:56:14] <freedman> ^information^annimation^
[18:56:26] <Dominus> that would be nice
[18:56:57] <Dominus> the problem is though that you have to click the speeches away
[18:56:59] <sethion> with the latest snapshot, when I try the overweight-buy-bug, the cursor disappears and the game gest stuck in dialogue mode
[18:57:36] <sethion> if you can make a key on the keyboard to replace the left mousebutton, you could just hold the key and it's go alot faster
[18:57:46] <sethion> (conversation that is)
[18:57:52] <Dominus> add it to the bug tracker
[18:57:59] <Dominus> that weigth bug that is
[18:58:01] <freedman> Sethion: Could you please submit your savegame as a bug?
[18:58:08] <sethion> :) was doing that
[18:58:24] <sethion> sure. I'll put it on the bugtracker, jeff
[18:58:27] <freedman> I know... dealing with Sourceforge can be a bit of a pain sometimes.
[18:59:41] <freedman> I'm going to get a bit of exercise. Will be back a bit later.
[18:59:46] <freedman> See ya!
[18:59:49] <-- freedman has left IRC (Leaving)
[18:59:53] <Dominus> bye
[18:59:55] <Dominus> :-)
[19:00:11] <Dominus> heīs always leaving like that
[19:00:36] <Dominus> Iīm going to ... get something for lunch mostly
[19:00:40] <Dominus> :-)
[19:03:34] <sethion> I've saved under quicksave..which game is it that I should include with the bugtracker?
[19:04:00] <wjp> quicksave isn't really a savegame file
[19:04:00] <Dominus> just load it again and save normally with a name
[19:04:26] <Dominus> then it will be the latest savegame
[19:04:32] <Dominus> datewise
[19:04:44] <Dominus> donīt forget to zip it
[19:04:45] <sethion> ok
[19:05:00] <sethion> but itsn't it the latest savegame now? (datewise)
[19:05:14] <wjp> as I said, a quicksave isn't really a savegame file
[19:05:26] <sethion> oh
[19:05:27] <sethion> right
[19:05:35] <sethion> didn't see that
[19:05:37] <wjp> it just writes out the current game to the gamedat dir.
[19:05:44] <Dominus> the quicksave is only the files in gamedat and those get overwritten when you save again or load a game
[19:06:17] <sethion> so when you save a game, the previous made quicksafe is lost and replaced by the new normal save?
[19:06:28] <Dominus> yep
[19:06:37] <Dominus> kind of
[19:07:02] <Dominus> it writes the savegame stuff to gamedat dir and to exultXXbg.sav
[19:08:01] <Dominus> gamedat gets always overwritten by saving and loading (no mater if quicksave or normal save). normal save only gets overwritten when you use the save dialog
[19:09:04] <sethion> so the gamedat-file is just (a.o.) a savegame-file, the Quicksave
[19:09:21] <sethion> done. bug is in the tracker
[19:09:26] <wjp> gamedat is a directory
[19:09:38] <Dominus> with lots of files
[19:09:38] <sethion> oh
[19:09:39] <sethion> right
[19:09:41] <sethion> :)
[19:10:13] <sethion> hmm
[19:10:15] <sethion> crashed again
[19:10:24] <wjp> a savegame is a file that just packs all the files in gamedat together
[19:10:53] <Dominus> why did it crash again?
[19:12:19] <sethion> had overweight and bought something (that obviously didn't fit in the backpack)
[19:12:32] <Dominus> so just avoid that
[19:13:01] <sethion> I know, I was just testing
[19:13:40] <sethion> why od I hear the SkaraBrae theme in Britain?
[19:13:52] <Dominus> press e
[19:14:01] <sethion> e? ok.
[19:14:02] <sethion> damn
[19:14:08] <sethion> crashed before I could press e
[19:14:19] <Dominus> and you will see eggs like a music note and click on those and the music will change
[19:14:41] <sethion> what does barge mean?
[19:15:07] <Dominus> some kind of transportation device normally. why?
[19:15:21] <Dominus> carpet or horse carriage
[19:15:24] <Dominus> or ship
[19:15:27] <sethion> carpet :)
[19:15:37] <sethion> I was just wondering
[19:15:58] <sethion> there's annother egg that's shaped like a dirty diaper
[19:16:19] <Dominus> monster egg I think
[19:16:26] <Dominus> doubleclick it
[19:17:28] <sethion> summons a guard
[19:17:39] <Dominus> itīs an npc spawn actually
[19:17:51] <sethion> great. just like there weren't enough guards
[19:17:53] <Dominus> like monsters or guards or animals
[19:17:59] <Dominus> he he
[19:18:17] <sethion> what's the lightningbolt egg?
[19:18:24] <Dominus> guess
[19:18:25] <Colourless> storm
[19:18:27] <sethion> everytime I click it LB tends to walk to it
[19:18:51] <Dominus> normally it generates some kind of weather change
[19:18:54] <sethion> oh, that's why all the cloads appeared
[19:19:13] <sethion> clowds
[19:19:23] <Dominus> clouds actually
[19:19:28] <sethion> you can feed water in a foutain to npcs
[19:19:35] <sethion> yeah, those
[19:19:50] <Dominus> yep, some do have an effect on you like healing or curing or poisoning
[19:19:52] <sethion> those black spots in the middle of the screen. clouds.
[19:20:12] <Dominus> I meant feeding from fountains
[19:20:15] <sethion> I know, but in original, you couldn't feed water to LB,only to partymembers
[19:20:28] <Dominus> you sure?
[19:20:31] <sethion> or the unicorn in near despise, for that matter.
[19:20:34] <sethion> pretty sure
[19:20:36] <Dominus> you could feed all npcs
[19:20:48] <sethion> oh. must be my imagination then.
[19:20:59] <Dominus> some could have been special cases though that are not handled correctly in Exult
[19:21:15] <sethion> still, it's a weird thought. just walking next to a fountain getting all wet in the face because someone is trowing water in your mouth
[19:21:18] <Dominus> you could feed those poison potions for sure to NPCs
[19:21:40] <Dominus> but thatīs what happening in real life as well, isnīt it?
[19:21:45] <sethion> ...can't recall ever trying that. but that makes sence, where would you need the green potion for anyway
[19:22:03] <sethion> oh damn, my parents need the computer
[19:22:15] <sethion> I'll see you later I guess
[19:22:22] <Dominus> "damn you LB and guardian, I canīt stand to be your puppet anymore, I commit suicide"
[19:22:41] <sethion> lol :)
[19:22:44] <sethion> gotta go
[19:22:48] <sethion> *gone*
[19:22:49] <Dominus> see you
[19:22:53] <-- sethion has left IRC ()
[19:26:01] <Dominus> Viva, a music television channel in germany suspended its program in respect for what happened in the US
[19:26:39] <Colourless> you know, i think most channels everywhere have done that
[19:27:02] <Dominus> yeah or thay cover the story
[19:27:07] <Dominus> endlessly
[19:27:17] <Dominus> which is ok with me
[19:28:46] <Dominus> MTV europe didnīt
[19:29:25] <wjp> neither did TMF (Dutch music tv), but they apparently did adjust the programming. (don't know how though)
[19:30:16] <wjp> ugh... have to fill out a silly survey about computer use and computer services on our university
[19:30:23] <Colourless> well, i only get like 6 channels and they are all covering it
[19:30:24] <Dominus> phew
[19:31:22] <wjp> "what programs do you use? * word processing * spreadsheet * e-mail program * browser * other (with a line to list the 'other's :-) )
[19:31:29] <wjp> that line is nowhere _near_ long enough :-)
[19:31:54] <wjp> I wonder if they actually expect us to list them all :-)
[19:32:04] <Colourless> hmmm
[19:32:14] <wjp> just running exult's configure makes me use several dozen ;-)
[19:32:29] <Colourless> hehe
[19:32:32] <Dominus> :-)
[19:32:36] <Dominus> list them all
[19:33:00] <wjp> would be fun, wouldn't it :-)
[19:33:27] <Colourless> do you have enough room?
[19:33:49] <wjp> just one line, but there's plenty of whitespace on the page
[19:34:32] <wjp> ugh... "What OS do you use at home? * don't know, * Windows version DOS, * 95, * 98, * NT, * 2000, * Mac OS, * Other"
[19:34:36] <Colourless> heh, fill up every possible spot
[19:34:41] <wjp> "Windows version DOS" ???
[19:34:47] <Colourless> don't know :)
[19:34:54] * wjp lists 98, 2000, Linux, BeOS, QNX
[19:35:03] <Dominus> maybe they mean Win3.11
[19:35:08] <wjp> maybe I should install a *BSD just for the purpose of this survey
[19:35:21] <Colourless> heh
[19:35:45] * Dominus wonders if anybody still uses Win3.11
[19:36:42] <Dominus> well, when I worked at a bank they still used it as the OS/2 embedded version
[19:37:35] <Dominus> but that was in '98
[19:38:26] <Dominus> anymore funny question in the survey?
[19:39:25] <wjp> well, I have to rate our helpdesk... (which I work for :-) )
[19:40:33] <wjp> or "which resources do you have access to? * CD-ROM, * DVD, * ISDN, * ADSL, * other" (again with a request to list the others)
[19:40:53] <wjp> any idea what they expect me to list as "other" ??
[19:41:41] <Colourless> hmmmm
[19:42:19] <Colourless> that could mean anything
[19:42:45] <Colourless> i wouldn't ever put those choices into the same questions
[19:43:46] <wjp> it's kind of a silly survey really... not much thought put into it. (or by the wrong people)
[19:45:04] <wjp> "would you like to receive university information through a medium other than e-mail? * flyers, * bulletin boards, * letters, * university paper, * department's newsletter"
[19:45:16] <wjp> umm... what _kind_ of information?
[19:45:32] <wjp> sure, I'd like to learn some things by letter
[19:45:47] <wjp> would be a bit of a waste to send letters for other things
[19:46:10] <Colourless> you would think that it would be
[19:46:43] <wjp> so I just marked all options and made a bit of a 'negative' comment on the side...
[19:47:49] <Colourless> heh
[19:48:09] <Colourless> the survey was probably created by people with little real knowledge of computers
[19:48:14] <wjp> yeah, probably
[19:48:38] <wjp> anyway, I've wasted enough time on this thing...
[19:49:10] * wjp stuffs it into its envelope
[19:49:41] <wjp> hehe, I hope they wrote up some kind of computer program to process the things... I wonder how it will handle my replies :-)
[19:49:57] <wjp> "only mark one answer"; yeah, right ;-)
[19:50:09] <Colourless> hehe
[19:50:13] <Colourless> that is useless
[19:51:23] --> x-bow has joined #exult
[19:55:29] <Dominus> so, Colourless, when do we get to see your render improvements?
[20:11:31] --> fingolfin has joined #exult
[20:11:52] <fingolfin> hi
[20:12:05] <Dominus> hi
[20:12:16] <Dominus> damn tweakfiles.com is going down
[20:22:27] <Kefka> gah.. i just heard loud engine noise from planes
[20:22:56] <Kefka> i guess they are just national guard or air force ones though.. but i gotta admit i was alarmed..
[20:23:22] <Dominus> can only be those guys with no other air traffic allowed, I guess
[20:23:48] <wjp> hi Max
[20:23:58] <fingolfin> hi willem
[20:25:38] <Dominus> fingolfin: check out some comments to the whole affair at http://www.3dwin.ch/main/article.php?sid=1424&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
[20:25:52] <Dominus> some pretty disgusting comments
[20:25:59] <Dominus> all in German, btw
[20:27:53] <wjp> "Aber es war nötig, den USA mal zu zeigen, dass sie nicht mehr die Schutzpaten der Welt spielen können" <-- good god...
[20:28:17] <Dominus> as I said, pretty disgusting
[20:28:30] <fingolfin> good god!
[20:28:33] <fingolfin> idiots never day
[20:28:40] <fingolfin> well, I had this argument with one guy on #macdev
[20:28:55] <fingolfin> he insisted that "it is all the fault of these damn fucking muslims"
[20:29:00] <wjp> what does "Schutzpaten" mean, btw?
[20:29:10] <Dominus> Godfather
[20:29:11] <fingolfin> and he said it was a big mistake that "we didnīt eridcate them in the past"
[20:29:15] <Dominus> protecting father
[20:29:18] <fingolfin> wjp: guardian
[20:29:25] <wjp> k
[20:29:29] <Dominus> listen to fingolfin
[20:29:31] <wjp> :-)
[20:29:54] <fingolfin> in any case, I am not sure what I shall believe who commited this dead
[20:29:59] <Dominus> hey, talking with idiots like that is really useless
[20:30:07] <fingolfin> I strongly doubt it was the palestinians
[20:30:10] <fingolfin> Dominus: yeah...
[20:30:16] <fingolfin> Dominus: but we managed to get him down a lot :)=
[20:30:25] <fingolfin> Dominus: esp. when one guy cited Thomas Jefferson
[20:30:47] <fingolfin> of course, this guy (called himsefl KGB btw..) said "fuck Thomas Jeffersion, we live in a different time now"
[20:30:50] <Dominus> Iīm also not sure who did this, but itīs pretty useless to speculate on it
[20:30:54] <fingolfin> yeah
[20:31:10] <fingolfin> though this whole thing required a tremendous amount of preperation
[20:31:23] <fingolfin> and I still canīt fully understand how that machine was able to get at the Pentagon...
[20:31:34] <fingolfin> after all, they do have a permanent air protection... oh well
[20:32:17] <wjp> how populated is the area around the pentagon?
[20:32:21] <Dominus> yeah, but shooting down a public air line machine is not sth you can do
[20:32:23] <-- Kefka has left IRC (Ping timeout for Kefka[])
[20:32:31] <Dominus> wjp: very populated
[20:32:42] <Dominus> according to my tv channel
[20:32:44] <wjp> makes it kind of hard to shoot it down too
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[20:34:34] <fingolfin> true, still curious
[20:34:51] --> freedman has joined #Exult
[20:34:57] <wjp> wb
[20:35:02] <fingolfin> many many more people will die due to toxic fumes
[20:35:05] <fingolfin> hi jeff
[20:35:10] <freedman> Thanks. Don' t think I'll be doing much work today.
[20:35:18] <freedman> Hi Max
[20:35:20] <fingolfin> I didnīt I must admit :)
[20:35:21] <Dominus> hi again
[20:35:35] <freedman> Hi! Any new bugs since I left:-)
[20:35:48] <Dominus> nope
[20:37:53] <Colourless> hi
[20:38:24] <freedman> Hi. Figured out animations?
[20:38:27] --> sethion has joined #exult
[20:38:34] <freedman> W.B.
[20:38:34] <sethion> hallo
[20:38:36] <Colourless> yeah pretty much
[20:38:39] <sethion> thanks
[20:38:55] <freedman> I've still never noticed anything wrong...
[20:39:06] <sethion> ?
[20:39:13] <sethion> with the bug you mean?
[20:39:20] <freedman> ...with the animations.
[20:39:21] * Dominus neither but he doesnīt say it too loud
[20:39:26] <Dominus> ?logs
[20:39:26] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exultlog.php3
[20:39:37] <Dominus> for sethion
[20:39:43] <sethion> thanks
[20:39:47] <Dominus> :-)
[20:39:53] <freedman> But then, I've never cared about a carpet on the roof.
[20:40:30] <Colourless> the animations were only out of sync for a fraction of a second, you could hardly notice the problem, but if you looked carefully enough and in the right places it could be noticed
[20:40:58] <Dominus> freedman: I added a comment to the forum about that serpent pillars stuff
[20:41:05] <Colourless> also another problem was that SI uses animated IFIX objects which exult couldn't previously handle
[20:41:35] <freedman> Yes. That shouldn't be too hard to implement.
[20:41:43] <Colourless> already done here :)
[20:41:50] <freedman> :)
[20:41:51] <Dominus> so when will we see it?
[20:41:54] <Dominus> :-)
[20:42:36] <Colourless> probably tonight (my time)
[20:44:37] <Dominus> ok, looking forward
[20:44:42] <sethion> serpentpillars stuff? you mean that you play your way from BG to SI without any cutscenes?
[20:45:09] <Dominus> not exactly like that
[20:45:13] <Colourless> that could be one thing you could, but personally I wouldn't do that
[20:45:15] <Dominus> but yes, that thread
[20:45:43] <Colourless> i'd personally join the BG ending and SI intro
[20:45:55] <wjp> yeah, that wouldn't be that hard to do
[20:46:01] <-- x-bow has left IRC (Ping timeout for x-bow[host62-7-8-102.btinternet.com])
[20:46:02] <wjp> although I don't really see the point
[20:46:05] <Dominus> true
[20:46:19] <sethion> but the SI intro starts with "eigteen months after the destruction of the black gate..
[20:46:21] <sethion> "
[20:46:23] <freedman> An inbetween story might be interesting.
[20:46:28] <Dominus> there reall isnīt one, especially as UW2 is in beetween
[20:46:44] <sethion> never played any underworlds
[20:46:48] <Dominus> a little side story
[20:46:55] <freedman> They're great, esp. the first.
[20:46:56] <Dominus> UW2 is great
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[20:47:07] <Dominus> I liked the 2nd better
[20:47:15] <Dominus> because of the many worlds
[20:47:20] <freedman> Yes, it was lots of fun too. I was just tired of the Guardian.
[20:47:22] <sethion> so you just need to figure out a new storyline of what happends between uw2 and si? or from bg to uw2?
[20:47:34] <Dominus> from UW2 and SI
[20:48:01] <Dominus> freedman, had some story like the travel of Odyseus in mind
[20:48:07] <Dominus> (ulysses?)
[20:48:16] <sethion> I don't know the ending of uw2 (that was the one in which LBs castle gets turned into blackrock and nobody can leave and you have to go to a few worlds to get this supergem to drive back the guardian..or something..right?)
[20:48:25] <Dominus> right
[20:48:34] <Dominus> and you find the serpent staff
[20:48:46] <sethion> didn't you find that in SI?
[20:48:52] <Dominus> (though only through some tricky conversation)
[20:49:04] <Dominus> nope, when you start SI you have it allready
[20:49:06] <x-bow> In the end you got the horn of Praecor Loth, got posessed by an air deamon and shattered the gem
[20:49:12] <wjp> no, that was one of the BR serpents, not the staff
[20:49:25] <Dominus> I meant the BR serpent
[20:49:30] <Dominus> :-)
[20:49:31] <sethion> you don't have the staff, you find it in a tree in SI
[20:49:37] <x-bow> Got that off a goblin, iirc
[20:49:40] <wjp> isn't that the crown?
[20:49:42] <x-bow> the serpent
[20:49:42] <Dominus> you find the staff in Furnace
[20:49:43] <wjp> staff is in furnace
[20:49:47] <sethion> oh
[20:49:50] <x-bow> crown in a tree
[20:49:56] <Colourless> so, which one do you get in uw2, order or chaos?
[20:49:56] <wjp> and armour in Fawn treasury
[20:49:58] <sethion> I really have to start playing SI again one of these days
[20:50:08] <Dominus> one serpent is on you
[20:50:19] <sethion> armor? I thought it was staff, earings and ring only..
[20:50:19] <Dominus> and another has a mage of moonshade
[20:50:19] <freedman> Me too:-) I've only played it once, and it was years ago.
[20:50:43] <wjp> staff + armour + crown is one set
[20:50:49] <wjp> ring + necklace + earrings another set
[20:50:53] <sethion> oh right
[20:51:08] <freedman> wjp: Wasn't that your site that had the UW maps?
[20:51:13] * wjp nods
[20:51:17] <sethion> well, first I'm trying to finish BG. I'm trying to find someone to tell me to start looking for the 2nd generator
[20:51:25] <sethion> even though I have already found the generator
[20:51:26] <wjp> although they're a bit low on plot-specific info/locations
[20:51:41] <freedman> Yea, but they got me through the games:-)
[20:51:48] <wjp> 2nd generator? sphere right?
[20:52:02] <sethion> ..the one with the sound that kills everyone
[20:52:06] <sethion> or is that the 3rd?
[20:52:07] <wjp> oh, that's the 3rd
[20:52:18] <sethion> oh! guess I skipped one then
[20:52:18] <wjp> do the Timelord's quests first, IIRC
[20:52:33] <sethion> can't reach TL
[20:52:48] <Dominus> wjp: I guess I used your maps as well, though I didnīt know it was you, until now :-)
[20:52:57] <wjp> :-)
[20:53:23] <sethion> there is a cat chasing my throughout britain
[20:53:32] <wjp> can't reach the timelord? aren't you supposed to meet him before doing any of the generators?
[20:53:32] <Dominus> kill it
[20:55:11] <Dominus> hey, we take no responsibilty for bugs if you donīt follow the right path through the game :-)
[20:55:14] <Colourless> you talk to the gypsy, who tell you to speak to the wisps isn't it?
[20:55:28] <freedman> That's right.
[20:55:34] <sethion> oh right! now I remember
[20:55:48] <sethion> I was trying to open a moongate to the northwest, but it didn't work
[20:55:52] <wjp> wisps ask you to fetch notebook (detour through Skara Brae), tell you how to reach TL
[20:55:57] <sethion> but I guess that wisp hasn't told me yet how to
[20:56:10] <Colourless> of course you get the clue to talk to the gypsy from non other than everybody's favourite CHUCKLES!
[20:56:21] <Dominus> if you play the game right
[20:56:27] <sethion> oh great! I've already fixed one generator, without talking to the TL yet
[20:56:39] <sethion> yeh..that was a fun scroll
[20:56:57] <sethion> "How to keep the avatar very VERY busy...
[20:57:43] <Colourless> want to play the game?
[20:57:53] <Dominus> and sethion: remember Shamino doesnīt like cats
[20:58:01] <sethion> that is ok
[20:58:02] <wjp> I would love to play the game :-)
[20:58:13] <wjp> *cough*
[20:58:18] <sethion> the game is easy
[20:58:29] <wjp> oh? you just lost ;-)
[20:58:43] <sethion> duh
[20:58:44] <wjp> try: "the game is not hard" ;-)
[20:58:45] <sethion> :)
[20:58:50] <sethion> ea-sy?
[20:59:04] <sethion> oh right
[20:59:08] <Dominus> When I visited Furnace last night I had an evil thought: you see a sheep corpse right next to a troll and when you remember what happens when you repeatedly doubleclick on a sheep you get the idea what happened to it
[20:59:08] <sethion> the game is not too hard
[20:59:42] <sethion> ?
[20:59:42] <Dominus> it is a nice game
[20:59:51] <sethion> what does happends when you doubleclick a sheep?
[20:59:58] <Dominus> try it out in SI
[21:00:06] <sethion> ok
[21:00:14] <Dominus> and do the same with cats
[21:00:29] <sethion> you shoudl really get the quit to menu thing working
[21:00:50] <wjp> ugh... return to menu... bah
[21:00:51] <Colourless> does that cat think only work with Smudge, or does it work with all of them?
[21:01:01] <Dominus> with all of them
[21:01:07] <Dominus> whoīs smudge?
[21:01:52] <Colourless> the cat that's near the prison in Monitor
[21:02:08] <Colourless> that's it's name :)
[21:02:12] <sethion> I'll check it out
[21:02:29] <Dominus> hm, I think with all
[21:02:40] <sethion> I'm at the prison, where's that cat?
[21:03:37] <wjp> around there somewhere
[21:03:43] <wjp> just SE in my game
[21:03:44] <Dominus> ok mtv has changed its program as well now
[21:03:53] <sethion> SE?
[21:03:57] <wjp> south-east
[21:04:10] <sethion> hey I see him
[21:04:17] <sethion> "I hate cats"
[21:04:19] <sethion> :)
[21:04:28] <Dominus> click more
[21:04:41] <sethion> meow
[21:04:43] <Dominus> did it... you know what yet?
[21:04:51] <sethion> ooh boom!
[21:04:56] <Dominus> he hehe
[21:05:09] <sethion> it's still exploding, I paused the game by going to the IRC-window
[21:05:11] <Dominus> now go to the sleeping bull inn and do the same with sheep
[21:05:32] <sethion> "Bloody cats!"
[21:06:27] <sethion> nothing happends to a sheep
[21:06:43] <x-bow> keep trying
[21:07:03] <Dominus> and keep on it
[21:07:09] <Colourless> hehe
[21:07:16] <Dominus> "that is sick"
[21:07:21] <sethion> ASWWWW
[21:07:22] <Colourless> Thou ART sick :)
[21:07:23] <sethion> GOD!
[21:07:29] <sethion> that IS sick!
[21:07:31] <x-bow> Thats baaaaaad, Avatar
[21:07:57] <Dominus> the avatar is one sick pupy, isnīt he
[21:08:25] <Colourless> i would say the SI designer are the ones who are sick :)
[21:08:29] <sethion> when you fast double click on a cow, everyone goes "Moo!"
[21:08:33] <Colourless> designers
[21:08:42] <x-bow> Oddly, although he is willing to commit bestiality, swinging both ways is too much for the avatar :)
[21:08:44] <Dominus> hehehe
[21:08:46] <sethion> yep. they had a few weird people on that team
[21:08:54] <sethion> lol
[21:09:09] <Dominus> well, a female avatar is swinging both ways
[21:09:26] <Colourless> yeah, it doesn't bother a female avatar
[21:10:23] <sethion> how do you change genders again?
[21:10:32] <Colourless> alt g i think
[21:10:33] --- Dominus is now known as Dominus|afk
[21:10:42] <sethion> that's godmode
[21:10:54] <Dominus|afk> ctrl-h
[21:11:00] <sethion> ctr+g
[21:11:01] <Dominus|afk> and see there
[21:11:07] <Colourless> yeah control-g
[21:11:37] <sethion> the female avatar lies down on the sheep..
[21:11:41] <sethion> the male one kneels
[21:15:16] <sethion> kickass! my first runtime error!
[21:15:39] <sethion> an abnormal program termination..oooohhhhh....
[21:15:48] <Colourless> that's generally not a good thing :)
[21:16:02] <sethion> I know. but I know what's cauing it
[21:16:06] <sethion> causing
[21:16:19] <Colourless> what?
[21:16:29] <sethion> tryin to run winamp with something else
[21:16:49] * wjp mumbles something about windows
[21:16:58] <wjp> ;-)
[21:17:01] <sethion> my soundcards is a bit f*cked up, I can't play any other sounds when I play an mp3 file simultainously
[21:17:20] <wjp> driver issue?
[21:17:26] <sethion> nope. card issue
[21:17:41] <wjp> driver issue? ;-)
[21:18:02] <freedman> Er, maybe it's SDL. If my sound device is locked, Exult ends up crashing after a little while.
[21:18:05] <Colourless> driver/card it's normally hard to tell the difference, but normally things are driver issues
[21:19:11] <sethion> aw, doesn't really matter to me. I prefer exult without the red hot chilli peppers on the background anyway
[21:19:49] <Colourless> :)
[21:21:16] <sethion> ok, that's it for me, going to bed. school tomorrow :(
[21:21:26] <wjp> g'night
[21:21:29] <freedman> Bye.
[21:21:38] <Colourless> cya
[21:21:39] <sethion> byebye
[21:21:43] <-- sethion has left IRC ()
[21:26:48] <wjp> Jeff: did you see the thread about the broken return from SS on the forum?
[21:33:47] <freedman> Yes. Guess we need a savegame.
[21:34:44] <freedman> I faintly recall working on a similar problem in the past, though.
[21:41:40] <freedman> wjp: Have you looked at it?
[21:42:11] <wjp> not really; I was just trying to figure out what could cause it
[21:42:40] <wjp> the code for the save_position function looks ok
[21:43:04] <wjp> including catches for older savegames, even, so that wouldn't be it either
[21:43:22] <freedman> Yes. That fixed the previous problem.
[21:48:47] <wjp> ...asking for savegame on forum
[21:57:27] --> PoorCNewb has joined #exult
[21:57:42] <PoorCNewb> Hi
[21:59:19] <PoorCNewb> Ooops, bye :)
[21:59:20] <-- PoorCNewb has left #exult
[21:59:27] <Kefka> afghanistan is under attack
[22:00:02] <Colourless> it is?
[22:00:08] <Kefka> yes
[22:00:10] <Kefka> CNN
[22:00:16] <Kefka> multiple missile strikes
[22:00:27] <fingolfin> watching it
[22:01:56] <freedman> REally?
[22:02:25] <Kefka> yes
[22:02:48] <Kefka> i've seen at least 10 missiles go by
[22:03:21] <Kefka> as well as tracer fire
[22:03:31] <freedman> Kefka: Where are you?
[22:03:53] <Colourless> just watching it here now as well
[22:03:57] <Kefka> michigan
[22:04:09] <Kefka> seen as seen on tv
[22:04:12] <freedman> Oh...
[22:12:48] <wjp> yeah, was just watching CNN too
[22:13:11] <wjp> begins to sound like a James Bond plot
[22:13:29] <wjp> SPECTRE attacks both US and Afghanistan to start a war between the two :-)
[22:14:00] <Colourless> :)
[22:14:08] <fingolfin> =)
[22:14:10] <fingolfin> wel
[22:14:20] <fingolfin> well, it might as well be the civil war in Afghanistan
[22:14:25] <fingolfin> nobody knows
[22:14:29] <wjp> true
[22:14:37] <fingolfin> but of course, I hear in some channels people jumping to conclusions, sigh
[22:14:37] <wjp> well, someone would probably know, but not around here
[22:15:06] <Colourless> yeah, someone has to know
[22:15:18] <Kefka> well, its either the US or part of the civil war
[22:15:29] <Kefka> i can't think of a third possibility
[22:15:31] <fingolfin> the people who made the attack surely know :)
[22:15:39] <Colourless> yeah :)
[22:15:44] <fingolfin> Kefka: S.P.E.C.T.R.E. :)
[22:15:49] <wjp> right ;-)
[22:15:49] <Kefka> heh
[22:15:51] <fingolfin> US denies shooting I just hear
[22:16:04] <fingolfin> anyway, there is still russia :)
[22:16:25] <Colourless> hmm, it's not really the sort of thing that you could deny if you actually did it. people are likely to find out
[22:17:13] <fingolfin> oh it will be difficult to find out
[22:17:18] <fingolfin> as the attackers are all dead
[22:17:32] <fingolfin> and AFAIK they do not yet even know who of the passengers where the terrorists
[22:17:37] <wjp> I wonder if the black boxes will reveal anything
[22:17:41] <fingolfin> and even if they dind out, who was behind them?
[22:17:45] <fingolfin> s/dind/find/
[22:17:47] <fingolfin> wjp: yeah
[22:18:12] <wjp> if they ever find them, that is :/
[22:18:13] <fingolfin> and then, if you want to distract somebody from truth, make him discover something, but donīt make it too obvious... then feed them what they *want*
[22:18:24] <Colourless> i doubt the black boxes will really reveal anything about who did it
[22:18:35] <fingolfin> and they want some middle-easy target, so what is more obvious to make my attackers look like being from middle-east?
[22:18:54] <fingolfin> Colourless: aye
[22:19:06] <Kefka> i bet that it is the US, but we'll see
[22:19:15] <fingolfin> :)
[22:19:17] <Kefka> we'll know in a few minutes
[22:19:49] <wjp> if anyone wanted to create more chaos, this seemed to work
[22:19:58] <fingolfin> wjp: yeah
[22:20:08] <fingolfin> Kefka: you mean regarading Kabul?
[22:20:14] <Kefka> fingolfin: yes
[22:20:24] <Dominus|afk> what about those poor "shelter now" people imprisoned there, now?
[22:20:39] <Kefka> the target hit was an ammo dump
[22:20:44] <Kefka> a typical US target..
[22:20:56] <wjp> but also typical for a civil war
[22:21:31] <Dominus|afk> and I'd guess that the US would try to get Abu sth and not an ammo depot
[22:21:36] <Kefka> true.. i just question the technological capabilities of the Northern Alliance
[22:21:55] <Kefka> i doubt they have missiles that can fire from any distance and actually hit a target
[22:21:59] <Kefka> the intended target
[22:22:00] <fingolfin> Kefka: then there is also isreal
[22:22:16] <fingolfin> Kefka: ha hm... be carefuly in what you "believe" :)
[22:22:17] <Kefka> isreal?? heh.. not in this case
[22:22:36] <fingolfin> I have my doubts that it was the US, at least directly
[22:22:55] <fingolfin> maybe indirectly (i.e. by giving weapons) but this would have to be planned over some time
[22:23:19] <Dominus|afk> there you have your conspiracy theory
[22:23:21] <fingolfin> Dominus|afk: bin laden? they donīt know where he is exactly...
[22:23:30] <fingolfin> Dominus|afk: how can you type while being AFK? :)
[22:23:34] <Colourless> yeah, i would say it's too quick of a response, and seemingly too accurate as well
[22:23:36] <Dominus|afk> they guess Afghanistan
[22:23:55] <fingolfin> Dominus|afk: I would not even completly exclude the possibilty of some US people being behind the WTC attack...
[22:24:09] <Colourless> it's night time there, and how good would intelligence data be for the US retalliating
[22:24:13] <Kefka> fingolfin: i very much disagree..
[22:24:24] <fingolfin> Kefka: with what? :)
[22:24:31] <Dominus|afk> and as I heard on TV just a couple of minutes ago they have some intelligence on him being behind the attacks
[22:24:43] <Kefka> fingolfin: that an American, not associated with a terrorist group could do this
[22:24:56] <fingolfin> lol
[22:24:58] <fingolfin> you are naive :)
[22:25:03] <fingolfin> who earns most in a war? the industry
[22:25:20] <fingolfin> who wants to have a reason to strike against Afgahnistan etc. for a long time now? the military
[22:25:28] <fingolfin> I do not at all say they are part in there
[22:25:39] <Kefka> there are other ways to get an excuse besides killing over 10000 people
[22:25:43] <fingolfin> but if you really believe "no US citizen besides some weird terrorist coudl do this", you are naive
[22:25:50] <Kefka> and halting our financial markets for 3 days
[22:25:53] <fingolfin> Kefka: I do not think this is likely!
[22:25:54] <Dominus|afk> as reported a senator just this morning or yesterday gave record of a discussion secretely listened into that mentioned two terrorist attacks
[22:26:15] <fingolfin> Kefka: yeah, I do not believe thise, but "never say never again" to cite my good īol friend james :)
[22:26:23] <fingolfin> in any case
[22:26:36] --- Dominus|afk is now known as Dominus
[22:26:42] <fingolfin> they maybe where not involved, but maybe ... were "lax" about responding to a possible attack they knew in advance of.
[22:26:53] <fingolfin> I still do not fully get how the US security was so completly fooled
[22:27:05] <fingolfin> puts US security in a very bad light
[22:27:23] <fingolfin> of course, maybe there really was nothing that could have been done
[22:27:25] <Colourless> which could be part of your consipracy
[22:27:26] <fingolfin> I do not know at all, I know nothing
[22:27:53] <fingolfin> "my" conspiracy? :) I am not "belivign" anything, I only try to see all possibilities and try to keep my mind open
[22:27:57] <fingolfin> and not jump to conclusions
[22:28:02] <fingolfin> like most people seem to do :(
[22:28:15] <Kefka> well, the US needs to find out and strike back at whatever the cost
[22:28:32] <Dominus> the cost of a third world war even?
[22:28:37] <Kefka> if needed
[22:29:08] <Kefka> if the US got in such a war, i would be the first to sign up for the military
[22:29:32] <Dominus> you do realize how such a war would go?
[22:29:46] <Dominus> not at all like a standard war
[22:29:51] <Kefka> yeah.. but thats the chance you take
[22:30:05] <Kefka> do we put up with this stuff? or take the chance to lose it all
[22:30:09] <Dominus> guerilla and terrorist tactics are the way this would go
[22:30:17] <Kefka> its a typical gambling situation
[22:30:27] <Dominus> I donīt say you have to put up with it
[22:30:50] <Dominus> but gambling with an all out war is not sth you should ever consider
[22:31:26] <fingolfin> it is right out stupid
[22:31:29] <fingolfin> US could never win
[22:31:38] <fingolfin> I mean, sure, they could eradicate some countries
[22:31:58] <fingolfin> but they have no way to defend against thousand and hundred thousands suicide assassins afterwards
[22:32:01] <Kefka> i hate to say it, but the US isn't gonna go without taking the rest of the world with it.. lets hope it doesn't come to that.. but thats the truth
[22:32:02] <fingolfin> US would collaps
[22:32:24] <fingolfin> disgusting
[22:32:42] <Kefka> hmm
[22:32:44] <Kefka> i was wrong
[22:32:45] <Dominus> Kefka: thatīs true but nice to know you would take us with you into nuclear winter
[22:32:47] <fingolfin> ha
[22:32:53] <fingolfin> and I was right :) US denies
[22:32:53] <Kefka> the US isn't behind it.
[22:32:58] <fingolfin> ok, it still could have been the US, though
[22:33:12] <fingolfin> only that they deny doesnīt prove anything :) but I tend to believe that, I had my doubts before
[22:33:23] <fingolfin> Dominus: isnīt it? puts Kefka in a new ligth
[22:33:52] <Kefka> well, as a US citizen, i obviously have different viewpoints
[22:33:57] <Dominus> even if it isnīt, no way to know what extremists will think and what they will act upon
[22:34:20] <Dominus> so you are talking about nuking?
[22:34:42] <Dominus> nukes are not an option
[22:34:45] <Kefka> i would welcome a weapons of mass destruction attack against any country
[22:34:53] <Kefka> that would do something like this to the United States
[22:35:20] <Dominus> oh, shut up and think!
[22:35:25] <Kefka> i am
[22:35:26] <Colourless> nukes are never an option
[22:35:27] <fingolfin> no
[22:35:30] <fingolfin> a country!
[22:35:34] <fingolfin> this was not "a country"
[22:35:41] <fingolfin> these were some people
[22:35:42] <Kefka> well, if it is osama bin laden
[22:35:43] <Dominus> these were terrorists
[22:35:49] <Dominus> then
[22:35:50] <Kefka> and afghanistan supports him
[22:35:57] <Kefka> then afghanistan is that country
[22:36:19] <fingolfin> Kefka: ah so you eradicate afganistan? even though you know that 90% there are people oppressed by the rest, and have no part in this?
[22:36:20] <Kefka> if we can prove he is there and they refuse to hand him over
[22:36:33] <Kefka> fingolfin: you don't have to hit the entire country
[22:36:39] <fingolfin> Kefka: lol
[22:36:40] <Kefka> hit the possible places where he is
[22:36:51] <Dominus> you do realize the political situation of Afghanistan, do you? Kefka?
[22:37:01] <Kefka> two sides fighting
[22:37:05] <fingolfin> Kefka: all the possible places?
[22:37:16] <Kefka> as far as china or russian interference
[22:37:18] <Kefka> it wont happen
[22:37:31] <Kefka> fingolfin: lie in wait.. as soon as he is spotted
[22:37:33] <Kefka> fire
[22:37:41] <fingolfin> LOL
[22:37:47] <fingolfin> Kefka: you *are* naive :)
[22:37:55] <Kefka> nah, i am just not afraid to die
[22:38:06] <fingolfin> Kefka: if the US were able to do that, they had murdered him long ago
[22:38:19] <fingolfin> Kefka: people who are not afraid to die are only one thing. stupid
[22:38:27] <Kefka> well, then i am stupid
[22:38:29] <fingolfin> ok
[22:38:35] <Dominus> you do realize that fear of death seperates the smart from the foolish
[22:38:43] <Kefka> not alone..
[22:38:44] <fingolfin> Kefka: he is a US citizen
[22:38:49] <Dominus> a well known fact
[22:38:52] <freedman> Woah! Let's see what I missed...
[22:39:03] <Colourless> people who are not affraid to die are the sort of people to hijack planes an fly them into buildings!
[22:39:07] <fingolfin> Dominus: there is a big difference between the will to give oneīs life, and the lack of fear for death
[22:39:14] <fingolfin> s/Dominus/Kefka/
[22:39:19] <fingolfin> Colourless: yeah!
[22:39:25] <Kefka> Colourless: true, but not all people who aren't afraid to die are those type of people
[22:39:48] <Kefka> not afraid to die != terrorist
[22:39:49] <fingolfin> reminds me of that "KGB" guy in #macdev who, after proclaiming that all muslims in the world should be killed & slaughtered, told me "I am not like those people" LOL
[22:39:59] <Dominus> well, what you said in the last few lines does make one think so
[22:40:03] <fingolfin> Kefka: let me guess, you never were in real life threat?
[22:40:15] <fingolfin> Kefka: what was the closest thing you experienced to death?
[22:40:16] <Kefka> fingolfin: such as?
[22:40:32] <Dominus> an accident or friends dying
[22:40:35] <fingolfin> Kefka: have you ever been in a situation where you had to fear for your life? for real=
[22:41:00] <Kefka> probably, climbing a tree up about 60 feet, then losing my footing and falling about 10 feet before i caught myself on a branch
[22:41:39] <fingolfin> and you were not afraid? not shocked? did not think "oh my god, I survived" ? :)
[22:41:59] <Dominus> or "I will remember this day as my 2nd birthday"
[22:42:01] <Kefka> i was shocked and afraid
[22:42:56] <Kefka> but the circumstances were different.. maybe i should rephrase by saying i am not afraid to die in military circumstancesz
[22:43:29] <fingolfin> Kefka: you have been in a real military fight?
[22:43:29] <Kefka> gah
[22:43:32] <Kefka> no
[22:43:32] <fingolfin> Kefka: under fire?
[22:43:38] <fingolfin> Kefka: ok, so
[22:43:52] <fingolfin> Kefka: HOW DO YOU KNOW you'll not wet yourself?
[22:43:59] <fingolfin> you can't
[22:44:39] <Kefka> well, regardless, i'd be on the front lines
[22:44:43] <Kefka> wet or not
[22:45:14] <Dominus> this weekend I spoke to my grandpa who celebrated his 80th birthday. He talked about WW2 and how he got close to killing himself after he got wounded in Russia and thought his soine was shot through
[22:45:42] <Dominus> and how he robbed two hours through the snow to get away after he felt his leg again
[22:46:06] <-- x-bow has left IRC (Ping timeout for x-bow[host213-1-113-185.btinternet.com])
[22:46:08] <Kefka> ok i am gonna stop debating
[22:46:23] <Dominus> and just after he got to a German shelter he had to flee again as Russians closed in again
[22:46:31] <Dominus> could you do this?
[22:46:32] <Kefka> as a US citizen, i feel that the US is the most important thing
[22:46:46] <Dominus> I understand this
[22:46:48] <Kefka> the US first, the rest of the world second.. i can't help that
[22:47:04] <Dominus> but try to think before you act
[22:47:13] <Dominus> and say stupid things
[22:47:21] <Kefka> well, thinking is what caused this tragedy
[22:47:30] <freedman> ??
[22:47:31] <Kefka> if we would have elimated these people
[22:47:32] <fingolfin> and never forget, the US is part of the world
[22:47:39] <Kefka> instead of thinking of the consequences
[22:47:42] <fingolfin> sigh
[22:47:44] <Kefka> then it wouldn't have happened
[22:47:47] <freedman> Which people? That's what makes this so hard.
[22:47:50] <fingolfin> as if violence ever solved a problem
[22:47:54] <fingolfin> yeah
[22:47:54] <Dominus> it would just have been someone else
[22:48:00] <Kefka> freedman: anyone that we consider a threat
[22:48:03] <Kefka> and that we can locate
[22:48:09] <fingolfin> look at palestina & isreal, they do exactly what you propse, kefka
[22:48:13] <Kefka> good
[22:48:14] <freedman> It >could< be domestic terrorists.
[22:48:19] <Kefka> if i was in charge
[22:48:23] <Kefka> i'd say, let them fight it out
[22:48:29] <Kefka> one on one
[22:48:33] <fingolfin> Kefka: I pray to god that you never be in charge, but rather some sensible man
[22:48:40] <Kefka> i am sick of the US butting in
[22:48:44] <freedman> How about a Quake deathmatch?:-)
[22:49:03] <Dominus> hey Jeff, donīt ry to loosen up the mood :-)
[22:49:10] <freedman> Sorry
[22:49:14] <Dominus> the tension, I mean :-)
[22:49:45] <Kefka> fingolfin: there are people worse than me in the US and other governments around the world
[22:50:12] <Dominus> Kefka: as was displayed today
[22:50:12] <Kefka> anyways
[22:50:24] <fingolfin> Kefka: that is no excuse
[22:50:25] <freedman> Kefka: Note that this probably wasn't a government.
[22:50:34] <fingolfin> anyway
[22:50:39] <Kefka> freedman: i am saying assassinate people who the US views as a threat
[22:50:55] <freedman> That's probably what's going to happen.
[22:50:59] <Kefka> good
[22:51:02] <fingolfin> this reminds me a lot about my father, who years ago used to take like Kefka, only instead of US being good and rest of the world evil, there were other roles :)
[22:51:03] <Kefka> i hope it does
[22:51:09] <fingolfin> luckily he is more intelligent today
[22:51:12] <freedman> And it's better than random attacks on civilians
[22:51:20] <fingolfin> slightly better
[22:51:33] <Kefka> freedman: i never said we should randomly attack civilians
[22:51:36] <fingolfin> of course, it means the US spys will decide whom they deem to be not worth of living
[22:51:41] <fingolfin> Kefka: ? no
[22:51:44] <Kefka> no
[22:51:48] <fingolfin> Kefka: you said you wanted to nuke part of afganistan
[22:52:08] <Kefka> if that part included those terrorists responsible
[22:52:10] <Dominus> <Kefka> i would welcome a weapons of mass destruction attack against any country
[22:52:13] <Kefka> then it wouldn't be random
[22:52:27] <Kefka> it would be targeted
[22:52:33] <fingolfin> you mean
[22:52:33] <Dominus> 90% of the population of Afghanistan are oppressed
[22:52:35] <Dominus> !!!
[22:52:47] <fingolfin> targetedly killing random innocent civilians
[22:52:54] <fingolfin> instead of randomly killing innocent civilians
[22:52:55] <freedman> Would be better to free Afganistan from the Taliban.
[22:52:59] <fingolfin> lol, makes a big difference
[22:53:01] <Kefka> Dominus: well, then the US needs to un opress them as a side effect of killing the terrorists
[22:53:09] <fingolfin> btw, kefka, you know what fallout is?
[22:53:16] <Kefka> yeah, i've played it
[22:53:28] <wjp> umm
[22:53:34] <Dominus> thatīs what they tried with Russia and Afghanistan and see what came of it
[22:53:37] <fingolfin> Kefka: but do you knwo the results of a nuking? besides the direct explosion?
[22:53:40] <Dominus> so they should butt in again
[22:53:46] <fingolfin> america has lost wars before, btw :)
[22:53:47] <Dominus> ?
[22:53:55] <Kefka> Dominus: butt in because it affects us
[22:54:00] <wjp> fingolfin: weren't those police actions? ;-)
[22:54:12] <fingolfin> oh yeah
[22:54:15] <fingolfin> :) of course :)
[22:54:19] <fingolfin> anyway
[22:54:24] <Kefka> israel and palestine are just two squabbling children
[22:54:27] <fingolfin> a war is not a solution to this, at least not a normal war
[22:54:29] <Kefka> let the EU handle them
[22:54:44] <Dominus> Israel affects the US, Ireland affects the Us
[22:54:49] <Kefka> nope
[22:54:59] <Dominus> well, the US helped from the start
[22:55:11] <Dominus> so it is also an American issue
[22:55:13] <Kefka> if isreal and the middle east went to war
[22:55:17] <Kefka> i wuldn't give a damn
[22:55:47] <Dominus> the whole of the jewish population of the US would be very upset with the government
[22:55:58] <Kefka> who cares
[22:56:00] <Dominus> You wouldnīt give a damn
[22:56:04] <fingolfin> Kefka: you *are* naive. just like my father used to be :)
[22:56:18] <Kefka> well, maybe i am, but i am just like other americans
[22:56:25] <fingolfin> Kefka: like Bush, you seem not to fully grasp that US is indeed part of the world, and indeed affected by it
[22:56:25] <freedman> Uh oh...
[22:56:30] <Dominus> but the politician canīt turn their backs to a large part of their residents
[22:56:33] <fingolfin> freedman: donīt feel insulted :)
[22:56:49] <fingolfin> I do understand US is angry! has all rights to be!
[22:57:00] <Kefka> well, if they can break the rules
[22:57:03] <Kefka> then we can
[22:57:04] <fingolfin> I myself am shocked, and upset by this, like is everybody I know
[22:57:12] <freedman> You don't know who "they" are yet.
[22:57:13] <fingolfin> Kefka: that is kids talks
[22:57:17] <Kefka> i am a believer in the old testament's "eye for an eye"
[22:57:18] <fingolfin> angry kids talks
[22:57:26] <fingolfin> Kefka: that leads to disaster only
[22:57:32] <Kefka> i am a strong supporter of the death penalty also btw
[22:57:41] <freedman> After the Oklahoma bombing, most people assumed it was radical Muslims. And they were wrong.
[22:57:50] <Kefka> freedman: this goes beyond that scope
[22:57:57] <fingolfin> Kefka: like in Isreal/Palestina. While oyu think it is "squabbling childred" these are actual human being, deing because of people who think like you
[22:58:14] <Kefka> fingolfin: no they are dieing cause they are morons
[22:58:19] <fingolfin> excuse all my splling mistakes, btw :)
[22:58:19] <Kefka> and actually believe in a religion
[22:58:26] <Kefka> when religion is baseless
[22:58:28] <fingolfin> Kefka: as I said: like you
[22:58:48] <fingolfin> religion or any other "believe", like the "believe" in the "holy US"
[22:58:52] <freedman> Kefka: Got to agree; killing over religion is stupid.
[22:59:12] <Kefka> i think religion is stupid in general, but since we have the right to freedom of religion
[22:59:20] <Kefka> i think that it should be allowed obviously
[22:59:46] <Dominus> but the war in Israel is not that much over religion. Itīs more about territotory and freedom of oppresion
[22:59:53] <fingolfin> aye
[23:00:03] <Kefka> well, the point is
[23:00:21] <Kefka> isreal went to war and fought fairly, and won, so they deserve the land
[23:00:22] <fingolfin> and I am not into religion myself, btw, but I strongly believe in human rights, and in common sense
[23:00:29] <Kefka> if the muslim states would have won
[23:00:34] <Kefka> then they would have deserved it
[23:00:35] <fingolfin> Kefka: you should first study history
[23:00:46] <fingolfin> Kefka: define "fair war" :)
[23:00:57] <fingolfin> Kefka: do you actually now how Isreal came into exsitance?
[23:00:59] <Kefka> my guys fight your guys until one of us is eradicated
[23:01:12] <fingolfin> so every war is fair, as long as your guys win?
[23:01:13] <fingolfin> :)
[23:01:16] <Dominus> well the point is that Israel didnīt went to war alone. they were helped a lot by the US and the UK and various others
[23:01:29] <Kefka> vietnam was fair (mostly)
[23:01:31] <Kefka> we lost
[23:01:40] <fingolfin> no war is fair
[23:01:43] <fingolfin> no war is just
[23:01:57] <Dominus> all is fair in love and war
[23:02:19] <Kefka> it'd be nice if we could get along
[23:02:29] <Kefka> but thinking we can is ludicrous
[23:02:36] <Kefka> war is a part of life
[23:02:41] <Kefka> live with it!
[23:02:44] <freedman> Why? Most of Europe gets along.
[23:02:46] <fingolfin> Kefka: but you should not strive for war!
[23:02:50] <fingolfin> yeah
[23:02:58] <Kefka> fingolfin: i only strive to protect my country
[23:02:59] <freedman> France and England used to fight for centuries.
[23:03:10] <fingolfin> Kefka: if you have to defend yourself, yes. but starting a war is not really defense
[23:03:16] <fingolfin> Kefka: why do US always have to bomb?
[23:03:20] <freedman> Each claimed the other's territory. Now they get along fine.
[23:03:25] <Kefka> fingolfin: ever heard the best defense if a good offense?
[23:03:27] <Dominus> not to mention how Germany behaved in the last Century
[23:03:29] <Kefka> s/if/is
[23:03:36] <fingolfin> Kefka: why donīt your hire your own assasins and make point kills (*one* person, not a "point" of 100 square miles)
[23:03:37] <Dominus> and it does get along with most of the world now
[23:03:49] <Kefka> if i had the money
[23:03:57] <fingolfin> maybe germany should have won the war, then it was me who would talk like kefka :)
[23:04:04] <Kefka> i probably would be thinking of doing stuff like that
[23:04:05] <fingolfin> that was very sarcastic
[23:04:07] <Kefka> but i don't
[23:05:08] <Kefka> fingolfin: so what would you do?
[23:05:13] <Kefka> i want to ask you
[23:05:20] <Dominus> Kefka: just realize how much the Us is intervened with all the wars in the world. And look up the history before making statements
[23:05:38] <Kefka> well, the US might have, but doesn't mean i agree
[23:05:56] <Kefka> i think we should have stayed out of the balkans
[23:06:01] <Kefka> but i did want desert storm
[23:06:05] <Kefka> since it was OUR oil
[23:06:12] <Dominus> LOL
[23:06:26] <Dominus> how was it your oil?
[23:06:32] <Kefka> we had a contract
[23:06:39] <Kefka> that makes it OUR oil
[23:06:46] <Kefka> a simple piece of paper
[23:07:20] <fingolfin> phff
[23:07:21] <fingolfin> lol
[23:07:24] <fingolfin> omg
[23:07:32] <fingolfin> shall I cry or laugh?
[23:07:40] <fingolfin> anyway
[23:07:43] <Kefka> i don't care what you do
[23:07:50] <fingolfin> I think not bad about desert storm
[23:08:00] <fingolfin> but for other reasons
[23:08:05] * Dominus nods
[23:08:11] <Kefka> you mess with the US, and you will regret it
[23:08:14] <fingolfin> the point for me was that saddam took kuwait, against international law
[23:08:15] <Dominus> but saying it was your oil
[23:08:23] <Dominus> phew
[23:08:37] <fingolfin> though the US is getting more and more into conflict with the rest of the world, even theire "allies"
[23:08:44] <freedman> I think the worry was that Saddam would attack the Saudi's next....
[23:08:48] <fingolfin> they donīt like paying debts very well, either (the US)
[23:08:49] <Kefka> i don't care about some middle eastern country taking another
[23:08:54] <Kefka> i want my gas for my car
[23:08:56] <fingolfin> freedman: yeah
[23:09:09] <fingolfin> freedman: fighting the invade Saddam was OK from my POV
[23:09:19] <fingolfin> Kefka: so, you have oil in your nice US
[23:09:33] <fingolfin> Kefka: why donīt you guys build walls around the US, and seal of completly from the rest of the world?
[23:09:33] <Dominus> Kefka: now you are talking like real white trailer trash
[23:09:36] <fingolfin> you would be 100% safe
[23:09:52] <Kefka> why should be wreck our country when we can buy from another country that it willing to wreck itself?
[23:10:03] <Kefka> s/be/we
[23:10:15] <fingolfin> Kefka: what would the US do without their exports & imports I wonder...
[23:10:18] <wjp> http://www.satirewire.com/news/0103/usfirst.shtml
[23:10:25] <freedman> (This topic's getting a little goofy...)
[23:10:29] <fingolfin> how long would the US civilization last w/o the rest of the world I wonder
[23:10:46] <Kefka> fingolfin: where are you coming from?
[23:10:53] <Dominus> freedman: I for my part is now thinking that Kefka is pulling our leggs
[23:11:10] <fingolfin> wjp: LOL, great
[23:11:10] <freedman> Yes... where would we get our cheap DRAM (who cares about oil?)
[23:11:14] <fingolfin> Kefka: guess
[23:11:23] <Kefka> hey
[23:11:29] <Kefka> i don't mind the rest of the world
[23:11:35] <Kefka> as long as it doesn't interfere with us
[23:11:42] <Kefka> when it does, then i have a problem
[23:12:04] <fingolfin> lol
[23:12:11] <Kefka> if everyone else would simply mind their own business and not get in our hair
[23:12:15] <Kefka> then i'd be happy
[23:12:16] <wjp> http://www.satirewire.com/news/0010/international.shtml
[23:12:20] <fingolfin> so we may serve thee, mighty emperor, as long as we remain obediant underlings? :)
[23:12:28] <Kefka> fingolfin: yes
[23:12:36] <wjp> it's funny how many satirewire.com articles relate to this conversation :-)
[23:12:48] <fingolfin> I never was as close to kickbanning somebody as now :)
[23:12:52] <fingolfin> wjp: aye :)
[23:12:54] <Kefka> you don't have to serve us
[23:12:57] <freedman> wjp: Very funny:-)
[23:13:00] <Kefka> you just have to stay out of our way
[23:13:15] <wjp> freedman: yeah :-)
[23:13:30] <fingolfin> Kefka: hey, why donīt *you* stay out of *our* way?
[23:13:42] <fingolfin> Kefka: the US always meddles in all sorts of stuff... maybe we donīt like that?
[23:13:43] <Kefka> because i am a us citizen
[23:13:44] <freedman> Kefka: You're sounding a bit immature, I'm afraid.
[23:13:54] <fingolfin> Kefka: how old are you?
[23:13:59] <Kefka> almost 20
[23:14:04] <fingolfin> Kefka: btw, youd didnīt guess, but I am from germany
[23:14:11] <Dominus> fingolfin: gibtīs nicht irgendeine ignore einstellung wie das kill file in a newsreader?
[23:14:15] <Kefka> i know where you all are from
[23:14:15] <fingolfin> Kefka: I thought you were about 16 from what you said, but see, I can guess wrong :)
[23:14:22] <fingolfin> Dominus: ja
[23:14:29] <Kefka> the only US person here is jeff
[23:14:36] <fingolfin> Dominus: du kannst den /ignore befehl benutzen
[23:14:37] <wjp> Dominus: sure
[23:14:38] <freedman> And I'm in Oregon.
[23:14:44] <Kefka> if i was in a primarily US chat room
[23:14:47] <Kefka> people would agree with me
[23:15:06] <fingolfin> Kefka: that is nice for you, please go there
[23:15:07] <Kefka> or at least more people would agree with me.. at least with parts of what i say
[23:15:09] <freedman> It's not really your content, but your tone.
[23:15:14] <fingolfin> yeah
[23:15:21] <fingolfin> I actually agree with some things you say
[23:15:22] <Kefka> well, what do you expect
[23:15:26] <fingolfin> but not in the least with your attitude
[23:15:30] <Kefka> i have about 4 people attacking me
[23:15:37] <fingolfin> with your self centered ego
[23:17:02] <Dominus> fingolfin: wie tu ich den ignore befehl setzen um jemanden zu ignorieren?
[23:17:27] <Kefka> well, in the grand scheme of things, none of our thoughts matter in this situation
[23:18:41] <fingolfin> Dominus: was für einen Klient benutzt du denn? Bei mir geht das via Kontext-Menü
[23:18:54] <fingolfin> Kefka: true
[23:19:12] <Dominus> fingolfin: got it allready, thx
[23:19:21] <fingolfin> Dominus: freut mich :)
[23:19:42] <freedman> (Guess I should have taken an extra quarter of Deutsche...)
[23:20:10] <Dominus> sorry all for the bad nettiquette, I was just asking how the ignore command works if someone really would get on my nerves
[23:20:16] <wjp> German's not that hard... (if you happen to know dutch :-) )
[23:21:00] <freedman> :-) I know they're similar, but I can't understand a word of Dutch.
[23:21:05] <Dominus> and you nearly got me there, Kefka, but I learnt from the Dragons Newsgroup that political discussions tend to get ugly
[23:21:09] <wjp> sure you can :-)
[23:21:13] <wjp> try 'computer' ;-)
[23:21:18] <Dominus> :-)
[23:21:20] <fingolfin> hehe
[23:21:23] <fingolfin> "Rechner"
[23:21:54] <freedman> :-) OTOH reading French math books can be easy; almost all the words are the same as in English.
[23:22:16] <wjp> it's kind of different with computer-related topics, strangely enough
[23:22:27] <wjp> they translated very nearly everything into french
[23:22:51] <freedman> Just using the English word? They do that in Japanese, too, I think.
[23:23:44] <wjp> no, exactly the opposite. New french words for the english terms
[23:24:17] <Dominus> they have this strong anti-english movement
[23:24:24] <wjp> yeah
[23:24:43] <freedman> Yes.
[23:24:45] <wjp> Dutch tends to just use the english terms. (guess we're too lazy to add new words to the language :-) )
[23:25:06] <freedman> I'd expect languages to merge, eventually.
[23:25:08] <Dominus> even though itīs not as strong as the notion in Quebec
[23:25:36] <Dominus> wjp: you are not dubbing movies (and Iīm so envious of that)
[23:25:49] <wjp> yes, I'm very glad we don't :-)
[23:25:51] <freedman> English = French + German a long time ago.
[23:26:15] <Dominus> very simplified, Iīd say
[23:26:17] <Dominus> :-)
[23:26:37] <fingolfin> yeah :)
[23:26:39] <Colourless> no, English = French + Germen + Pretty Much everything else as well :)
[23:26:45] <fingolfin> donīt forget the dozen other languages mixed in there
[23:26:54] <freedman> ... which is why spelling is such a pain:-)
[23:28:13] <wjp> yeah, spelling and pronuncation are a lot less related in english than in dutch, german of french
[23:28:35] <Colourless> and just general grammer
[23:28:41] <freedman> And probably Spanish is the easiest.
[23:28:57] <fingolfin> nah
[23:28:59] <wjp> latin and greek are quite 1-1 too
[23:28:59] <fingolfin> not really :)
[23:29:02] <freedman> French spelling is a bit of a challenge with all those silent letters.
[23:29:08] <fingolfin> yeah it is :)
[23:29:27] <fingolfin> and all those cases and special conjugations etc. it is about as hard as german or even harde in some parts
[23:29:46] <fingolfin> in english, at least you have only one gender pronoun, and only very few different forms of each verb
[23:30:11] <freedman> I've heard that spoken English is fairly easy to learn; but wouldn't know.
[23:30:31] <Dominus> I hated french in school, but Iīm still able to understand it and can speak it relatively fluently when Iīm drunk
[23:30:48] <Dominus> :-)
[23:30:53] <freedman> :-)
[23:31:14] <freedman> I can speak lots of languages when I'm drunk; just, nobody can understand me:-)
[23:31:21] <wjp> hehe :-)
[23:31:29] <Dominus> freaks people out when I suddenly start speaking french with them and especially when they donīt understand it
[23:31:50] <fingolfin> lol
[23:31:50] <fingolfin> yeah
[23:32:03] <wjp> I doubt I can still understand spoken french... I'm already having enough trouble with reading it
[23:32:10] <fingolfin> he
[23:32:19] <fingolfin> spoken english is rather simple I think
[23:32:44] <wjp> I think I learned written english first. (Being glued behind a computer as I was/am)
[23:32:57] <wjp> although tv would have helped with spoken
[23:33:11] <freedman> Is there English TV in the Netherlands?
[23:33:16] <wjp> subtitled
[23:33:30] <freedman> Yes. That would be a good way to learn.
[23:33:31] <wjp> and we get BBC, CNN, and a few other english channels
[23:33:38] <fingolfin> wjp: yeah, same for me
[23:33:44] <fingolfin> wjp: learnign english I mean
[23:35:05] <Dominus> my mom had an American friend since I was 11 or 12, that helped a lot
[23:35:30] <Dominus> at home we spoke a mixture of German and English
[23:36:53] <fingolfin> he :)
[23:38:08] <Dominus> he was from Colorado, they broke up three years ago and now she has again an American boyfriend who she meat in Hawaii but is also from Colorado. Heīs real White Trailer Trash
[23:38:31] <freedman> So you speak English with a Colorado accent?
[23:38:37] <Dominus> Very nice but you just canīt discuss certain issues
[23:39:06] <Dominus> freedman: nope, but certainly a bit American accent in there
[23:39:40] <freedman> Seems a bit odd that such a guy would be involved with a foreigner.
[23:40:13] <Dominus> true
[23:40:24] <Dominus> maybe not total wtt
[23:40:39] <Dominus> :-)
[23:40:52] <freedman> Must not have been if he was able to get along there.
[23:41:48] <Dominus> well, with certain issues you hear it
[23:42:18] <freedman> ...and I assume he spoke German.
[23:43:18] <Dominus> the first one did (as his grand-grand-parents were Germans that moved to Russia, and his parents moved to Canada and hhe moved to Colorado)
[23:43:40] <fingolfin> ah
[23:43:52] <Dominus> Russland-Deutsche
[23:44:01] <Dominus> ziemlich lustig
[23:44:13] <Dominus> very funny
[23:44:42] <Dominus> and his name was Dick and my momīs surname is Layher
[23:44:58] <Dominus> which did put them in akward situations
[23:45:34] <freedman> Hmmm... good thing they stayed in Germany.
[23:45:53] <Dominus> as people in Hotels didnīt know what to make of them- Dick and Lay-her (or ow it is pronunced in German "Liar")
[23:46:08] <Dominus> freedman: they didnīt - they traveled in between
[23:46:28] <freedman> Oh:-)
[23:46:29] <Dominus> liek she does now with her "Hawaian" boyfriend
[23:46:43] <Dominus> the summer in Germany and the Winter on Maui
[23:46:54] <Dominus> which is kind of nice
[23:46:57] <freedman> Not a bad life.
[23:47:16] <Dominus> (only to bad for him that the summer in Germany is not very hot most of the times)
[23:50:03] <freedman> Still, sounds pretty nice. Wish I could spend winters in Hawaii.
[23:50:48] <Dominus> I stayed with them last year in february for three weeks and slept on the balcony all the time :-)
[23:51:05] <freedman> In Maui?
[23:51:09] <Dominus> yep
[23:51:12] <Dominus> Lahaina
[23:51:37] <freedman> I've been there, but only a week. Nice beaches to the north.
[23:51:47] * Dominus nods
[23:52:22] <freedman> But that's a LONG flight from Europe.
[23:52:34] * Dominus nods again
[23:52:45] <Dominus> about 20 hours
[23:53:05] <freedman> Blech. (I hate flying.)
[23:53:36] <Dominus> I like it when I get an aisle seat in the emergency exit roe
[23:53:39] <Dominus> row even
[23:53:52] <Dominus> because of my long legs
[23:54:10] <freedman> Yea. I'm short, and still get cramped.
[23:54:32] <freedman> My big fear is having a really large person next to me. Or a crying infant:-(
[23:54:34] <wjp> yeah, it's hardly comfortable
[23:54:59] <freedman> Or a fidgety person...
[23:55:02] <wjp> especially when they lead you through first class afterwards, where you can see the tons of space they have there :-)
[23:55:02] <Dominus> I had one crying infant next to me when I once flew home from NY
[23:55:46] <freedman> They can cry a long time:-)
[23:55:52] <Dominus> But thatīs why I always have my big headphones with me when flying
[23:56:14] <freedman> Good idea.
[23:56:21] <Dominus> It did especially when we hit a big "airhole" right after take off
[23:56:54] <Dominus> a really big one. I really feared I was going down that time
[23:57:23] <Dominus> and afterwards the baby was really crying loud
[23:57:54] <freedman> I can imagine. You feel sorry for them, but you still wish they'd just be quiet.
[23:58:46] <Dominus> Iīm stil thinking of all those poor people that were in the plane with my sister this january
[23:58:59] <freedman> What happened?
[23:59:12] <Dominus> She has two little children - one 6 months at that time and the other 2 and a half
[23:59:30] <Dominus> and she spent the winter with my mom on Hawaii
[23:59:43] <Dominus> people must have hated her :-)
[23:59:51] <freedman> :-)