#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 13 Jul 2004 (GMT)

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[08:12:53] <Colourless> hi
[08:13:04] <Baastuul> Hullo.
[08:13:08] <Baastuul> How are you doing?
[08:14:30] <Colourless> i am doing just fine
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[08:56:19] <Telemachos> Colourless: time for a few quick questions about 'scalers'? Would some of them be suited for scaling up low-les textures and images for 3d?
[08:59:15] <Colourless> ye... no not really
[08:59:28] <Colourless> depends on the texture really
[08:59:38] <Telemachos> ok
[09:00:01] <Colourless> the 'advanced' scalers use simple line and pattern detection methods
[09:00:23] <Telemachos> yes, but that would also be good for scaling up a texture as I see it?
[09:00:59] <Colourless> tend to only work on aliased/dithered source. If the texture has any sort of antialiasing then the scalers tend to fail
[09:01:39] <Telemachos> hmm ok.. well, I guess only way to know for sure would be to try it ;)
[09:01:59] <Colourless> which is why they work on 8 bit sources. but on 24bit sources they don't work too well
[09:02:32] <Telemachos> don't they inspect the pallette? Only look at pixel indices to detect patterns?
[09:02:47] <Colourless> that would depend on the scaler
[09:02:51] <Telemachos> ok
[09:02:59] <Colourless> as far as i know we work on colours
[09:03:45] <Telemachos> well, the case where I'm thinking of using them is on the textures and images for UW1/UW1. Those are stored as 8-bit images actually.. I then convert to 24 bit to better suit the hardware
[09:04:02] <Telemachos> but I guess I could try a scaler on the 8-bit source data before conversion
[09:04:07] <Colourless> it will work well with the sprites
[09:04:27] <Colourless> textures... you'll get seams, but you are likely to get those anyway with bilinear
[09:04:51] <Telemachos> ah ok, those are also the ones where it's needed the most. Walls and floors are ok with a simple billinear filter on the hardware
[09:05:49] <Colourless> just be warned upscaled sprites need 4x the video memory... can be very expensive if you are not careful.
[09:06:03] <Colourless> need to make sure you have decent texture management
[09:06:11] <Telemachos> no problem ;)
[09:06:30] <Colourless> poor texture management in pentagram ends up using 80 mb of video memory with scaled shapes
[09:06:40] <Telemachos> you're on openGL right?
[09:06:46] <Colourless> yeah that was with opengl
[09:06:58] <Colourless> of course that is in the 'old' pentagram code
[09:07:28] <Telemachos> the sprites in UW1 are so small that tex memory isn't a problem I think
[09:07:54] <Colourless> yes i don't think it will be a problem. UW1 ran on a 286 :-)
[09:08:06] <Telemachos> so, say I want to take a look at the scales.. would you know of any good documentation or will I have to jump into the Exult code
[09:08:30] <Colourless> exult's code is awful... look at pentagram old's
[09:08:41] <Telemachos> object sprites are 16x16 pixels ;)
[09:09:01] <Telemachos> ok, thanks.. will try that one instead then
[09:10:41] <Telemachos> but there still is a ton of different scalers... can you name one that you think will be most suited for my use?
[09:12:32] <Colourless> you'll need to test it yourself, or let the users choose. 2xSaI, SuperEagle, Super2xSaI and Scale2x will be the best choices
[09:13:06] <Telemachos> ok thanks again..
[09:18:27] <Telemachos> oh, I think I see why you think it could be a problem for images that must tile. In Pentagram/Exult you apply the scaler to the entire screen rather than the individual images/tiles right?
[09:18:38] <wjp> yes
[09:19:50] <Telemachos> yeah ok.. can't do that for textures.. but since sprites often has a transparent edge and doesn't need to tile it can work well there....
[09:20:10] <Telemachos> you learn something new every day ;)
[09:20:26] <Colourless> :-)
[09:21:23] <Telemachos> I wonder if some of the scalers could be implemented through a pixel-shader. Then it would actually be possible to apply it to the final rendered 3d-image
[09:21:37] <Colourless> you wonder.... YOU WONDER!!!
[09:22:10] <Telemachos> uhm? Did I say something stupid? ;)
[09:23:03] <Colourless> http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/shadercomp/results/index.php?p=2
[09:23:08] <Colourless> 2nd one down
[09:23:09] <wjp> hehe :-)
[09:23:27] <Telemachos> lol ;)
[09:24:00] <Telemachos> nice - but 4.5 fps ? ;)
[09:24:20] <Colourless> that was due to the screenshot taking
[09:24:43] <Telemachos> ok
[09:31:59] <Telemachos> crap, the source is from an early dx9 version ;) he heh
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[10:58:00] <Telemachos> Got the 2xSaI working in my data extract tool... seems to work fine for the sprites. They are still quite blurry of course.. but that was to be expected with such small source images ;)
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[11:10:00] <Telemachos> check out the difference: without filter http://www.peroxide.dk/secret/ugck/itemsnoscale.jpg
[11:10:13] <Telemachos> and with: http://www.peroxide.dk/secret/ugck/items2xsaiscale.jpg
[11:13:15] <wjp> looks like an improvement
[11:13:51] <wjp> btw, there are a couple of custom-made 3d models for UW in uwadv
[11:14:18] <wjp> (replacing the sprite objects)
[11:17:08] <Telemachos> here's another shot with 2 passes of the filter.. http://www.peroxide.dk/secret/ugck/items4xsaiscale.jpg
[11:17:19] <Telemachos> yeah, I have that in mind as well..
[11:17:52] <Telemachos> but to begin with I think I'll use the original data.. then optionally replace with new stuff
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[16:29:36] <ZutGu> hello
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[20:08:23] <Sevalecan> anyone home? :)
[20:10:00] <wjp> hi
[20:10:38] <Sevalecan> sup?
[20:11:20] <wjp> hm, nothing much
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[20:34:07] <Colourless> cya time to go
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