#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 15 Apr 2002 (GMT)

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[00:52:56] <-- Fingolfin has left IRC ("42")
[01:06:13] <hebble> bye all
[01:06:15] <-- hebble has left IRC ("Xchat probably crashed.")
[01:24:56] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("Exult! Exult! Exult!")
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[06:52:07] <so_bo_hypheno-x> hello
[06:52:21] --- so_bo_hypheno-x is now known as sb-x
[06:52:48] <Darke> Hi.
[06:52:55] * Darke blinkies at your original nick.
[06:53:44] * sb-x noddles.
[06:56:21] <sb-x> anything interesting happen to Exult today?
[07:04:02] <Darke> Nothing that I know of. <grin>
[07:06:39] <sb-x> Darke have tried the stuff in /opengl?
[07:07:41] <Darke> Nope. I've not had a compilable version of exult for a while. <grin> Too much messing with kde/gcc/pentagram.
[07:09:11] <sb-x> Does KDE3 work now?
[07:10:16] <Darke> Nah. I'm still getting gcc3.1 to work. I needed to upgrade pretty much all my gnu tools for it to compile 'properly', and when I did get it to that point, there was a bug that needed fixing. <grin> I'm currently compiling it now, and I _think_ it should work.
[07:14:16] <sb-x> Cross your claws :)
[07:14:30] <sb-x> What was the bug?
[07:15:01] * Darke has had them crossed for the last week or so. It makes it a pain to type. <grin>
[07:15:48] <Darke> I'm not sure really. But there was a compile bug in the last cvs download I had, and it's apparently been 'fixed'...
[07:18:52] <sb-x> Is there not a "stable" version of GCC, that does not break without having to upload your other GNU tools, and that will compile KDE 3?
[07:19:15] <sb-x> Heh.. That said, are there not any KDE 3 binaries available?
[07:19:23] <sb-x> s/upload/upgrade/
[07:29:14] <Darke> Yes, there's kde3 binaries, but with the version of SuSE I'm using, they're compiled missing a few nice features, due the the fact the stock SuSE lacks them. If I were running SuSE 8.0 (which is apparently almost out), it'd be no problem.
[07:31:18] <Darke> I tried with the latest 'stable' gcc3.0.4 the first time and it just wouldn't work, so I had to try gcc3.1.
[07:32:19] <sb-x> Do you compile GCC with GCC?
[07:36:03] <Darke> Kind of. You use your current compiler to compile a very basic bootstrap, which then compiles GCC. Then GCC compiles the rest of the libraries and such there, I think.
[07:37:20] <sb-x> What if you don't have a compiler?
[07:37:37] <sb-x> (as that may be why someone is installing gcc)
[07:38:36] <Darke> You compile it on another box that has a compiler and set the --target to the appropriate architecture.
[07:41:23] <sb-x> What if no other box exists?
[07:41:55] <sb-x> (as all other computing systems on the planet may be wiped out by an electromagnetic pulse)
[07:42:08] <sb-x> (and yours was shielded somehow)
[07:46:37] <Darke> You bootstrap by writing your own 'bootstrap' assember in machine code, then write a proper assembler using the functions only present in the original bootstrap assembler (there may be multiple bootstrap assemblers), then you write your bootstrap compiler with the assember you've just made, then follow the logical progession from there. <grin>
[07:49:08] <sb-x> Oh I never said there wasn't an assembler installed. I guess this hypothetical you could skip those first steps then.
[07:49:32] <sb-x> s/this hypothetical/???/ <-how did that get in there? :|
[07:50:01] <sb-x> But, I have to wonder if GNU really ever thought that through. :P
[07:52:54] <Darke> <shrug> I'm sure they did. All you need to do to get a GNU compiler running on your machine, is theoretcially, replicate their bootstrap compiler's features, and whatever translation tables they use, and it should Just Work. (Without any optimisations of course.)
[07:55:02] <sb-x> If something severe enough happened on Earth to practically destroy everyones workstation but yours, I think installed the latest version of GCC is probably not the first thing on your mind.
[07:55:40] * sb-x seems to be too tired to care about using proper grammar/spelling.
[07:57:57] <Darke> Well... yeah. <grin> But it's only a hypothetical situation created to ask a question in, after all.
[08:00:30] <sb-x> Heh.. oh yeah... thats right...
[08:00:46] * sb-x looks around nervously and grins.
[08:19:07] <sb-x> Darke do you know much about ASCII characters?
[08:19:28] <Darke> Umm... what in specific do you want to know about them? <grin>
[08:20:32] <sb-x> What is character 1 (\SOH) used for traditionally? Is there any reason I can't use that as a "marker" character for something I'm doing with strings?
[08:21:10] <sb-x> I don't plan on outputting it.
[08:21:34] <Darke> Serial comms, IIRC. I can't think of any reason why you can't use it, provided you're using pure ASCII. If you're using another localised character set, it may be assigned to something, but I don't think so.
[08:26:10] <sb-x> Thanks.
[08:29:53] * Darke happybounces. gcc3.1 compiled! Now he needs to make sure he's got a compiled version of 3.0.4, just in case, then try to compile kde3 again. <grin>
[08:31:23] * sb-x sees Darke happybouncing and averts his eyes.
[08:31:42] <sb-x> congrats tho
[08:31:42] <sb-x> :)
[08:32:04] * sb-x is currently drowning in multiple levels of nesting.
[08:33:56] * Darke boggles. It seems that the gcc developers are reveling in the theoretically unlimited length of characters in a command line. The width of each line is about 200 characters and there's almost 300 lines of it...
[08:34:21] <Darke> For _one_ link command, to produce the java library it looks like.
[08:35:11] <sb-x> ack!
[08:36:21] <sb-x> That is always why, I am occassionally tempted to replace the output of my Makefiles with friendly lines like "creating main.o", "configuring the application", "building libraries in subdir", "linking the application", and so on. :)
[08:36:40] <sb-x> but the output is still helpful so I don't do that
[08:37:08] <Darke> I've seen a couple of apps that do that. I'm not really sure I like it, since if it does break, I don't really know the command that was used to create it.
[08:37:19] <sb-x> It is Automake and libtool that creates the giant command lines for me.
[08:37:38] <sb-x> Yes, at the very least they should make it a configure option.
[08:38:28] <Darke> IMHO, a better idea is to drop a collection of files into their own subdirectory by function, so you only need to link `libutils.a` or whatever, instead of a dozen files. <grin>
[08:38:58] * Darke notices he doesn't have a compiled gcc3.0.4 and rebuilds it.
[08:39:50] <sb-x> "producing the accompanying java library... this command has thousands and thousands of characters in it... you don't really want to see that..."
[08:40:21] <sb-x> What do you need 3.0.4 for?
[08:41:56] <Darke> When gcc3.1 fails to compile something? It is straight cvs, so I expect it'll break at least one application somewhere. It's also if I do 'make install' it, and find out that someone's just committed a major problem that stops it from creating basic C++ programs or something, (it does happen), I can just 'make install' from my gcc3.0.4 directory to get a good compiler.
[08:43:44] <sb-x> I would assume you would just recompile 3.0.4 when you need to. But thats me. :) Is 3.0.4 what you've been using for a while?
[08:44:55] * sb-x has 2.95.3.
[08:49:33] * Darke _could_ recompile 3.0.4 when he needs too, but the worst case is that gcc3.1 is broken enough the it can't even compile the bootstrap for it...
[08:49:56] <Darke> I've been using 3.0.3 for a while, I only upgraded to 3.0.4 just before I tried to upgrade to kde3.
[08:51:41] <sb-x> You know your nesting is too deep and takes too many lines when you have to use end-of-block comments like "} /* while(malleables[v]) */" just to be able to read the code clearly.
[08:52:34] <Darke> Umm... yeah. Ever considered investing in functions? I'm told they do a good job at clearing out nesting nightmares. <grin>
[08:53:19] <sb-x> Eek
[08:53:38] <sb-x> This is AFTER investing in two functions. :>
[08:53:57] * sb-x might not have the required financing to invest in any more functions.
[08:54:34] * Darke blinkblinks. "Umm... what exactly are you writing that requires such deep nesting? <grin>"
[08:56:45] <sb-x> A command line interpretor that allows you to quote arguments, and has escape sequences ( \ ) and expands environment settings surrounded by dollar signs.
[08:57:49] <sb-x> Actually, the thing about commenting the blocks was before I split it into multiple functions. I just brought it up now because I'm still having the nesting nightmare, and I was tempted to add another comment. :)
[08:58:51] <sb-x> I can probably do this better, I just need to think about it for a bit.
[09:01:22] * Darke hmms... he doesn't really see where you'd have a nesting nightmare in that, but then again, he deliberately avoided coding one of those. <grin>
[09:04:02] <sb-x> You have two seperate loops(one is a while, one is a for) to scan the argument list and the characters in each argument, there's a lot of conditionals testing the current character, and then further conditionals to see what "mode" of interpretation we are in (variable expansion, escape sequence, token seperator, quoted whitespace), and this is done multiple times.
[09:04:36] * sb-x may be exaggerating the nightmare somewhat. He just really hates a lot of nesting.
[09:05:58] <sb-x> I have been known to get overworked about long functions too. :)
[09:08:27] * Darke ahhs. He thinks he's written something like this, (a BNF parser/interpreter/executor more specifically) before.
[09:09:53] <sb-x> Hehe, I'm sure it was a perfectly executed algorithm, programmatically expressed in under 5 lines. :-)
[09:12:25] * sb-x looks at ucxt code for ideas.
[09:12:51] <Darke> No, IIRC, it was actually 5 or 6 recursive 'state machines', one for each 5/6 primary states, and the more 'minor' stuff was included with each. Plus the stream was already isspace() tokenized as before it got to this code.
[09:13:25] <Darke> I don't think ucxt will have much of use. You're better off looking at ucc, but that's mostly flex/bison, IIRC. <grin>
[09:13:31] * sb-x faints at the concept.
[09:14:22] <sb-x> but ucxt is more fun
[09:14:34] * Darke has a copy of the O'Reilly lex & yacc book at paw. A bit out of date but certainly interesting. <grin>
[09:14:54] * sb-x attempts to parse ucxt.cc.
[09:14:54] * sb-x explodes.
[09:14:54] <sb-x> jk
[09:15:17] * Darke yicks and cleans sb-x off the seat before sitting down.
[09:15:56] <sb-x> I was fainting at the concept of recursive state machines, but will happily also faint at the concept of lex & yacc.
[09:16:14] * sb-x pulls himself together and looks at the code.
[09:16:32] <sb-x> $LBClueless = TRUE;
[09:16:52] <sb-x> // ICK! Don't try this at home kids...
[09:16:52] <sb-x> // now we clean up the <ick>y ness from before
[09:17:11] <sb-x> "Anything I'm missing? <queryfluff>"
[09:17:29] <sb-x> Hmm, why should I bother reading the code? Your comments are entertaining enough.
[09:18:28] <Darke> Hmm... I don't know why the first one is still there, that's straight out of the u7 quotes file.
[09:18:54] * sb-x nods.
[09:18:54] <sb-x> The four mystical usecode conventions? :)
[09:19:25] <sb-x> it always applies so you should leave it in
[09:19:53] <Darke> A single recursive state machine isn't too bad, you've just got to make sure it terminates at a well defined point, and returns the 'new' position/index so it can update the parent state machine.
[09:20:28] <sb-x> $DUPREDrunk = $SHAMINOWimpy = $IOLOAimless = TRUE;
[09:20:45] <sb-x> $IOLOBows = a location near Yew;
[09:21:30] <sb-x> Did child state machines run concurrently?
[09:21:30] <sb-x> I'm guessing their only job was to read/manipulate the string.
[09:22:49] <Darke> The 'parent' machine halted when it called the function for it's 'child' state.
[09:24:56] <sb-x> How long did it take you to write the different PaTh configurations in the comment at the start of open_usecode_file?
[09:25:28] <sb-x> And then how long did you take to admire what you had done?
[09:26:27] <Darke> It took me longer to double check that they were all correct, then that to type them all. <grin>
[09:27:32] <sb-x> Maybe Exult&Friends should just force the user to have lower-cast directories :)
[09:27:51] <sb-x> case
[09:29:11] <Darke> I'm using u7open now, so that entire function is almost redundant anyway, since u7open does a large amount of that 'finding' of it.
[09:30:08] <sb-x> "almost" redundant?
[09:32:50] <Darke> From what I remember looking at u7open, if it can't open it, it tries to run along the filename, uppercasing characters until it matches.
[09:35:34] <sb-x> I see you have some u8 stuff in that function.
[09:36:06] <sb-x> When I was checking my version of GCC I saw the -V option. Did you know about that?
[09:39:07] <sb-x> If I assume correctly, you can install different versions and use that option to change between them for a compile.
[09:57:21] * Darke earperks. He's seen that option, but never tried it.
[10:00:34] <sb-x> I have another complaint about Paws in U7. The denizens are crummy thieves.
[10:01:46] <sb-x> Weston, who tries to think up every excuse he can, is a prime example.
[10:03:39] <sb-x> At least when Blackthorn ran things there was some law and order.
[10:04:13] * Darke nods and suspects Paws was deliberately 'built' that way, so has to have a contrast to the nearby 'orderly' Britain.
[10:06:27] <sb-x> Silence out the snivelling farmers, and remove the hopeless bums, and Britain is a fine city.
[10:07:05] <sb-x> Some people insinuate that a "class system" exists in the city. They have quite the nerve.
[10:07:24] <sb-x> It's called a system of order.
[10:07:57] <sb-x> "There are quite a few fair girls in our fine town, or is that fine girls in our fair town?"
[10:08:07] <sb-x> hehe
[10:08:38] * Darke snickers.
[10:08:47] <sb-x> "There be a lot of fine girls in our fair town! Or is it 'fair girls in our fine town'?" Chuckles shrugs his shoulders.
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[10:24:00] <Darke> Hi.
[10:24:23] <sb-x> Hi.
[10:32:13] <Fingolfin> yo
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[10:58:22] <sb-x> Thou shalt confess thy crimes and suffer just punishment, or thou shalt be put to death.
[10:58:43] <sb-x> good day
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[11:08:47] <Fingolfin> was he refering to the new spam on exult-general or what?
[11:11:36] * Darke doesn't know. He noticed said spam, 'never sends unsolicited email' my foot.
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[12:30:32] <Colourless> hi
[12:31:09] <Fingolfin> hi
[12:36:01] <Darke> Hi.
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[12:45:26] <vividos> hi
[12:45:33] <Colourless> hi
[12:46:41] <Darke> Hi.
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[13:19:39] <olaf> hi
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[13:20:52] <Darke> Hello, hello again.
[13:21:13] <olaf> my friend Darke!
[13:21:15] <Colourless> only one of us is me
[13:21:20] <olaf> how are you?
[13:22:02] <Darke> Hmm... I'd say 'normal', except people would say I was lying. How about just 'good'? <grin>
[13:24:08] <olaf> reply satisfactory
[13:26:08] * Darke ACKs, ACK and increments reply counter. Then afks to Do Stuff(tm).
[13:26:12] --- Darke is now known as Darke|afk
[13:27:04] <olaf> $10:Darke = toilet
[13:37:17] * olaf slaps olaf around a bit with a large trout
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[13:50:04] <Dominus> hi all
[13:50:16] <Dominus> can aynone confirm compile problems with Studio?
[13:50:34] <Dominus> I get:
[13:50:36] <Dominus> dirbrowser.o(.text+0x2e9):dirbrowser.cc: undefined reference to `opendir'
[13:50:36] <Dominus> dirbrowser.o(.text+0x340):dirbrowser.cc: undefined reference to `closedir'
[13:50:36] <Dominus> dirbrowser.o(.text+0x35d):dirbrowser.cc: undefined reference to `readdir'
[13:50:36] <Dominus> dirbrowser.o(.text+0x36d):dirbrowser.cc: undefined reference to `closedir'
[13:50:36] <Dominus> dirbrowser.o(.text+0x459):dirbrowser.cc: undefined reference to `opendir'
[13:50:37] <Dominus> dirbrowser.o(.text+0x5c6):dirbrowser.cc: undefined reference to `readdir'
[13:50:39] <Dominus> dirbrowser.o(.text+0x5df):dirbrowser.cc: undefined reference to `closedir'
[13:50:49] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x4bdc):studio.cc: undefined reference to `opendir'
[13:50:50] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x538f):studio.cc: undefined reference to `readdir'
[13:50:50] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x53a9):studio.cc: undefined reference to `closedir'
[13:50:50] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x5e1d):studio.cc: undefined reference to `opendir'
[13:50:51] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x5eba):studio.cc: undefined reference to `readdir'
[13:50:53] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x5ed4):studio.cc: undefined reference to `closedir'
[13:50:55] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x5ef9):studio.cc: undefined reference to `opendir'
[13:50:57] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x61d3):studio.cc: undefined reference to `readdir'
[13:50:59] <Dominus> studio.o(.text+0x61ed):studio.cc: undefined reference to `closedir'
[13:52:04] <Dominus> well apparently Kirben didn't have any problem when he made the snapshot
[13:55:33] <Colourless> i'll look
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[13:56:37] <Fingolfin> hm
[13:56:51] <Fingolfin> opendir/readdir, that are unix specifc functions
[13:57:23] <Fingolfin> we have files/listfiles.cc for a reason
[13:58:18] <Fingolfin> guess we could extend it to handle the cases Jeff requires
[13:58:42] <Colourless> hmm, don't have freetype2 so i can't compile :-)
[13:59:31] <Dominus> sorry I have to go now
[13:59:39] <Colourless> what 'is' freetype?
[13:59:39] <Dominus> gonna report back tomorrow
[13:59:45] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("Exult! Exult! Exult!")
[14:00:34] <Darke> Colourless: http://freetype.sourceforge.net/index2.html
[14:04:45] <-- olaf has left IRC ("do you think the end of western civilisation started with Billy Ray Cyrus' "Achey Breaky Heart" becomming a hit?")
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[14:08:27] <olaf> hallo
[14:08:44] <Darke> Hello again.
[14:09:26] <olaf> sup
[14:11:17] * Darke proclaims that the court finds olaf guilty of abuse of the english language, and for... well... being olaf. Sentencing will commence on a yet to be specified date.
[14:11:50] <Colourless> haha
[14:12:37] <olaf> i iz c00l
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[14:25:47] <wjp> hi
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[14:29:10] <vividos> hi wjp
[14:30:22] <wjp> vividos: did anyone ever compile uwadv on linux?
[14:30:40] <vividos> I don't think so :)
[14:30:49] <Darke> Hi.
[14:30:54] <wjp> I might try tonight
[14:31:03] <vividos> cool :)
[14:31:40] <wjp> I don't have hardware opengl accelation setup currently, so I'll probably stick to just compiling it, though :-)
[14:34:03] <vividos> would be nice if it compiles, but I don't think
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[14:47:27] * wjp should go home
[14:47:29] <wjp> I'll bbl
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[15:05:10] * Darke notices that gcc3.1 has depreciated <strstream.h> and <iostream.h> and friends. He figures that by the time exult is supporting U9 (sometime around 2015, IIRC), we _might_ be able to write code that uses std::stringstreams without having to make exceptions with std::strstreams for some systems. <grin>
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[15:06:59] <vividos> :) why not using STLport?
[15:07:05] <Fingolfin> Darke: no problem with the strstream classe, part of the Std C++ library. Problem is with the ".h" variants vs. the official headers
[15:07:24] <Fingolfin> Darke: so strstream is just find, only you should use <strstream> and not <strstream.h>
[15:07:45] <Fingolfin> vividos: why complicate the build process for everybody without gainign anything?
[15:09:05] <vividos> hmm, I don't think that everyone compiles Exult, or?
[15:09:40] <Fingolfin> well, we (the developers) do
[15:10:02] <Fingolfin> I think stlport is something nice, but neither do I want to install it, nor do I want to install the (at least) couple dozen people who compile exult regulary
[15:10:24] <Darke> Fingolfin: Yeah, I guessed that. <grin> For reference whilst gcc3.1cvs happens to compile kde3 ok, it seems to have problems with pentagram. I'm poking it at the moment.
[15:11:12] * Darke knows pretty much all the linux users who wander past this channel compile it themselves. Most from the latest, or near latest cvs.
[15:11:49] <vividos> ok, but it should make no difference if one uses STLport or not, at least from the cod
[15:13:53] <Darke> In theory, yes. In practice, not at _all_. *grin* I've got three versions of the same compiler, and thus three versions of the same headers running here, and each time I upgraded I had to fiddle with things in exult and/or pentagram to get them working. All we would be doing is adding yet another variable into an already complicated equation. *grin*
[15:15:55] <vividos> ok that's a reason :)
[15:15:56] <Fingolfin> Darke: what compile problems does pentagram have with gcc3.1 ?
[15:16:28] <Fingolfin> is SF CVS as hell slow for anybody else, or is it just me and my australian friend?
[15:17:52] <Darke> (gcc3.1) Looks like a library problem. kde3base just bombed, and I just checked out the latest code from the gcc-cvs, from the looks of one particular file that was patched, it looks like they fixed the problem. <grin>
[15:18:07] <Darke> (sf/cvs) Yep. It's been quite a bit slower then usual the last couple of days.
[15:21:17] * Darke tries again and BOGGLES. It's slower updating pentagram, then it is updating the entire gcc tree!
[15:22:45] <vividos> ok, have to go. bye!
[15:23:25] <Darke> Bye.
[15:24:10] <Fingolfin> Darke: the SF folks are already tracking it
[15:24:14] <Fingolfin> bye, vividos
[15:24:54] <Darke> Fingolfin: Thanks. I hope they find out whatever the problem is soon. <grin>
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[15:46:35] <wjp> hi again
[15:46:44] <Darke> <sigh> gcc3.1 still doesn't work. It appears to have something 'wrong' in one of it's df
[15:46:51] <Darke> header files.
[15:47:22] <Colourless> hi
[15:47:31] <Darke> Hello again.
[15:47:52] <Darke> And goodbye. <grin> Must sleep.
[15:47:56] <wjp> night
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[15:48:02] <Colourless> cya
[15:48:50] <wjp> "The Stock Refinery never sends unsolicited email".. sure they don't :-)
[15:51:08] <Colourless> hmm, we have proof that they do
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[16:16:16] <wjp> hm, cool, the new xchats support C plugins
[16:17:10] <wjp> it seems to documented somewhat better than the perl plugin api :-)
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[17:55:02] <Sslaxx> Hi.
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[17:55:31] <wjp> hi
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