#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 17 Apr 2002 (GMT)

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[00:24:04] <armav> hi exultbot
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[03:19:51] <armav> hi
[03:20:26] <Darke> Hi.
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[04:44:21] * sb-x strolls in.
[04:44:26] * sb-x sees some people.
[04:44:28] <sb-x> Hi.
[04:44:51] <Darke> Hi.
[04:46:27] <sb-x> heya Darke
[04:46:27] <sb-x> how goes the mysterious work?
[04:46:53] <Darke> It goes... umm... mysteriously.
[04:49:26] <sb-x> What do you think of "conmesg" for the name of a function that puts a string to my local engine interface a.k.a. Console and/or logs it?
[04:50:29] <sb-x> and "conmesgf" for formatted output
[04:50:54] <Darke> `conmsg` would probably be better if you must squish it down that much. Or 'consolemsg'.
[04:51:03] <sb-x> This is probably what I will call it but I thought it wouldn't hurt seeing what someone else thought. :)
[04:51:12] <sb-x> cm?
[04:51:41] <sb-x> _
[04:52:09] <sb-x> _("Ho Wrd!");
[04:52:32] <Darke> If you want to have really short ones then 'cm' would probably be good. <grin> But you'll want the longer version as well for good documentation purposes.
[04:52:58] <sb-x> _("Ho Wrd!"); /*msg2con*/
[04:53:46] <Darke> Yeah. But how many people do you know will write that comment? <grin> It's much easier to maintain code if the language helps document it for you.
[04:55:29] <sb-x> Well im the only person going to be writing console messages so I guess what I call it doesn't even matter, but thanks for the input. I will use conmsg and conmsgf, they seem obvious to me and fast to type.
[04:57:35] <sb-x> Reason I'm doing this BTW is because a) in conmesg I can always insert a newline before and after the message so it gets put to a new line instead of right after my prompt, and b) it will automatically be prepended with a timestamp when logging
[04:57:56] * Darke nods. No problem. Useful.
[05:02:46] * sb-x nods. Concise. Functional. Informative.
[05:03:03] <sb-x> It's the SB-X way(tm).
[05:03:41] <Darke> Is it `1 SB-X Way`? <grin, duck>
[05:04:36] * sb-x does not yet have a Street.
[05:06:34] <sb-x> Actually, SB-X does not need a Way. I just came up with three random words, for I am SB-X. :)
[05:06:49] <sb-x> But if you'd like, I could spend my time thinking of ways to combine those three random principles into eight virtues.
[05:07:30] <sb-x> Then I will be able to derive eight anti-virtues, and a chaos/order theory will be developed sometime after that.
[05:08:11] * Darke really likes the logical principals LB used to create the Ultima 'universe'. The only reason he acquired the U9 Strategy Guide was for the interview. <grin>
[05:10:28] <sb-x> Agreed. What's in the interview?
[05:10:59] <sb-x> Is "What's" a contraction of "what is"?
[05:12:24] <Darke> I think it was printed in another book/magazine before. But part of it goes over how he created all the virtues/anti-virtues/principals and so on. Unfortunately, I don't have the book at paw at the moment.
[05:13:36] * Darke thinks spending AU$30 for a 200 page U9 OSG, just to acquire a 20 page interview is.. odd, but worth it. <grin>
[05:14:12] --- Darke is now known as Darke|afk
[05:15:11] <sb-x> I may have actually read that on the web!
[05:15:29] <sb-x> Or I read a review or it, or something similiar.
[05:16:08] <sb-x> Darke did you ever read the parables of the virtues? I think they were at the U9 site.
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[05:20:21] <sb-x> Hi.
[05:24:34] <sb-x> Now this is a descriptive comment: /* Now set its global name, if possible, from one of two sources. */
[05:24:41] <sb-x> /* first, try */
[05:24:48] <sb-x> // ... FIXME ...
[05:24:56] <sb-x> /* finally, extract from the source filename */
[05:25:04] <sb-x> :<
[05:38:35] --- Darke|afk is now known as Darke
[05:38:39] <sb-x> wb
[05:38:46] <ShadwChsr> hey
[05:38:54] <ShadwChsr> Im sure this question has been asked alot
[05:38:57] <Darke> Hi.
[05:39:03] <ShadwChsr> but why does the walk animation seem.... strange? :)
[05:39:14] <ShadwChsr> Like they're having a seizure or something :)
[05:39:33] <ShadwChsr> Its the only one thing in exult I've found that wasn't.. right
[05:39:54] <sb-x> the frame count is different from the original
[05:40:17] <sb-x> so that the avatar and friends walk at the same speed i think
[05:40:58] <Darke> It's apparently how the 'original' worked. We swap between two frame steps and three frame steps once every year or so because people keep going 'huh?', but this way is apparently how it Just Should Work(tm).
[05:41:09] <sb-x> it could also be your fps is set too high, or your your framerate is too low because of scalar/res used
[05:41:36] <ShadwChsr> it seems too high
[05:42:04] <sb-x> by fps i mean the setting in Gameplay options, you can change it
[05:42:34] <ShadwChsr> where's that?
[05:42:50] <sb-x> game speed
[05:43:22] <ShadwChsr> Hmmmm wheres that? :)
[05:44:22] <ShadwChsr> ahh there we go
[05:44:26] <ShadwChsr> i was looking at the setup menu
[05:44:28] <ShadwChsr> not the ingame one
[05:45:15] <ShadwChsr> nah now its too slow
[05:45:16] <ShadwChsr> hmmm
[05:46:44] <ShadwChsr> what was the original game's rez?
[05:47:59] <Darke> 320x200
[05:49:19] <sb-x> i play fs 320x200 for the classic effect
[05:49:40] <sb-x> i use fastest speed because im impatient and want to get from britain to minoc asap :)
[05:49:42] <ShadwChsr> Sure looks different on a 17" :)
[05:49:50] <sb-x> heh
[05:49:54] <sb-x> i'd like to see that :|
[05:50:02] <ShadwChsr> hmm?
[05:50:11] <ShadwChsr> what do you run it on?
[05:50:16] <sb-x> i have a 14" monitor
[05:50:28] <ShadwChsr> ahhhh :)
[05:50:47] <ShadwChsr> During the exult install you should have a "classic mode" option that defaults to that setting :)
[05:50:52] * Darke plays it at 400x300 with x2 scaling in a window. It looks nicer that way. <grin>
[05:51:18] <sb-x> I thought the default was 320x200
[05:53:06] <sb-x> Darke: Did you ever read the parables of the virtues? I think they were at the U9 site.
[05:53:22] <Darke> sb-x: Nope. I didn't even know they existed.
[05:54:58] <sb-x> It tells of a group of travellers who seek shelter in a storm. One of them decides to tell them some stories.
[05:55:19] <sb-x> Each one is related to a virtue.
[05:55:37] <sb-x> At the end of the story the travellers learn that, *gasp*, the storyteller is The Avatar!
[05:55:40] <sb-x> hehe :P
[05:56:07] * Darke *gasp*s.
[05:56:16] <ShadwChsr> default last I saw, was 320 windowed and scaled.. but it blurrs everything... In fact I didnt use exult for the longest time until I realized you could "fix" that :)
[05:56:45] <sb-x> ooh
[05:57:41] <sb-x> Darke: http://www.ultima-ascension.com/virtues.html
[05:57:58] <ShadwChsr> It's pretty funny that, to this day, The Ultima 8 engine is still the most advanced 2d isometric RPG engine ever created ;)
[05:58:22] <sb-x> Oh... Diablo was pretty good wasn't it?
[05:58:27] <sb-x> I don't really remember.
[05:58:40] <sb-x> Wasn't it isometric?
[05:58:50] <ShadwChsr> Yeah, but diablo's engine is pretty simple
[05:59:16] <ShadwChsr> doesn't seemlessly load, no unified world, no buildings, no floors, etc... pretty static world
[05:59:33] <sb-x> Oh yeah... the buildings are just pictures iirc.
[05:59:36] <sb-x> I wonder how U7 would look in the U8 engine.
[06:00:09] <ShadwChsr> Well UO was the best - U8 with higher rez so they fixed that "black border" issue with the sprites
[06:00:22] <ShadwChsr> but still the U8 engine, just minor modifications
[06:00:51] <ShadwChsr> I've still never seen another game where you could climb... that *was* pretty cool. Unfortinate about the whole jumping thing though ;)
[06:01:08] <ShadwChsr> 2d isometric game that is
[06:01:24] * Darke is almost certain U8's engine was and still is the most advanced. It's almost completely overdesigned for the job.
[06:02:02] <ShadwChsr> I'd love to see some of the techniques they used... but I've reversed engineered *most* of them
[06:02:09] <sb-x> I think I heard that U9 objects must be within a certain coordinate boundary entirely.
[06:02:10] <ShadwChsr> Still unsure about collision detection/bounding boxes/etc
[06:02:14] <sb-x> U8 objects can be moved smoothly.
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[06:03:26] <sb-x> Hi.
[06:04:27] <Soule> hello
[06:04:40] <Darke> Hi.
[06:06:33] <ShadwChsr> Any thoughts on a good way to do collision detection for isometric objects? Should I store an array of 5 values... the Z height, X and Y (tilted 45 for isometric), and the X & Y origin offset of the bounding box?
[06:06:36] <ShadwChsr> or is there a better way?
[06:07:48] <sb-x> Pretend it's a 3D engine and do detection of collision of the boxes of each object.
[06:08:21] <Darke> IIRC, that's how both exult & pentagram do it.
[06:09:19] <ShadwChsr> ie/ bounding boxes?
[06:10:10] <Darke> Yeah. If you look at ./shpdisp in the pentagram/viewer tree, there's an option to show the bounding boxes of all the items.
[06:10:44] <ShadwChsr> how do you handle corner walls? (l shaped) the bounding box is too large
[06:11:21] <ShadwChsr> i have a bounding box system but I couldnt get it to work for those walls, so Im thinking of having multiple bounding boxes
[06:11:25] <ShadwChsr> per object
[06:11:37] <sb-x> use two boxes
[06:11:37] <Darke> Make it up of two shapes, one for each length of the 'L'.
[06:12:11] <ShadwChsr> hmmm ;)
[06:12:29] <sb-x> i guess that's the obvious choice then! :)
[06:12:51] <ShadwChsr> I think im gonna use two boxes (my original plan)... but as least im on the right track, I wasn't sure if u8 used bounding boxes or something else
[06:12:54] <sb-x> Of course, there is always a better way. I just like to find the simplest solution.
[06:13:13] <ShadwChsr> Well, I'm building an engine first
[06:13:18] <ShadwChsr> But I dont want to go overkill and never finish
[06:13:23] <sb-x> yeah
[06:13:44] * Darke does too. In the long run, the simplest solution is usually the best. You can always add another layer of abstraction to hide things, if it's too difficult to 'build' the walls in that manner.
[06:13:45] <sb-x> What about an active box, and then subtraction boxes?
[06:13:51] <ShadwChsr> so I gotta balance future expandability with actually finishing and the 'core' game. the core game always wins, but I still want to build the xtras where i can :)
[06:14:46] <ShadwChsr> because with two active boxes, i can throw them into the list and process them as though they were two seperate objects side by side. The collision detection code doesnt care that it's rendered as one object
[06:15:12] <Darke> Yep.
[06:15:18] <ShadwChsr> and subtraction code could get messy :) now you're dealing with complex polygons and not simple "cubes"
[06:16:02] <ShadwChsr> I really hope I finish this system some day :)
[06:16:30] <ShadwChsr> I'm reverse enginering U8's concepts but not the formats... so it's unique, but still can do cool things :)
[06:16:37] <Darke> Subtraction code usually means you just preprocess the original 'cube' subtract the 'negative cube' and then use that value to create a few new cubes, each one of which encompasses part of the original shape. If that makes sense. <grin>
[06:16:38] <ShadwChsr> How does it handle floors?
[06:17:22] <ShadwChsr> ie/ multiple floors
[06:18:44] <ShadwChsr> My plan was to just hide all objects with a "base" z coordinate that is higher than the "base" z coordinate of the player + the height of the player
[06:19:14] <ShadwChsr> But then if you play a midget or a cat or something silly, I imagine torches and tall (stacked) walls would start disappearing :)
[06:20:17] <Darke> You'd probably have to specify where you can cut away 'layers', or one step further and just to line-of-sight testing and only display what you can see.
[06:20:38] <Darke> After all, you're already dealing with a 2d engine where everything is in 3d anyway.
[06:21:01] <sb-x> Only hide the object if it is flagged as floor, and is directly above the player or is touching an object directly above them.
[06:21:27] <ShadwChsr> what about the walls on top of that floor? :)
[06:22:01] <sb-x> s/floor/building_structure/
[06:22:19] <sb-x> ack
[06:22:19] <sb-x> what about sconces hanging from those walls ? :)
[06:22:39] <ShadwChsr> its tricky business ;)
[06:22:52] <ShadwChsr> Theres gotta be a way to do it without hardcoding floors into the engine :P
[06:25:23] <ShadwChsr> I guess I wont worry about it until I have collision detection done
[06:25:25] * Darke points frantiacly at 'line of sight' testing.
[06:25:39] <ShadwChsr> Darke: What about windows? :)
[06:25:41] <Darke> Are you dealing with regularly shaped 'cubes'?
[06:26:20] <Darke> You mark them as semi transparent, like doors, then have a 'V' wedge of viewable area between them.
[06:26:49] <ShadwChsr> Heres another concept/question: everytime the player moves, i obviously want the screen centered on the player. So do I offset the screen position by how much the player moved, or re-center the screen every time?
[06:26:50] * Darke points to the old X-COM/TFTD games. It does exactly what you want to do.
[06:27:37] <ShadwChsr> I'm not sure if I want to do normal line of sight, for style reasons, but Z line of sight may work
[06:27:37] <Darke> Take your pick. U7/U8 recenters at each step, IIRC.
[06:28:09] <ShadwChsr> Not too much of a performance hit? right now I offset it, but it gets nasty after awhile with angles and steps and stuff :)
[06:28:24] <ShadwChsr> not to mention when you reach the edge of the world and you no longer want it centered :)
[06:28:35] <sb-x> When the player is moving, you set the main camera to follow them. As long as the camera is moving the screen will be redrawn.
[06:28:37] <ShadwChsr> (not an issue with ultima, but my game allows smaller user created maps, say, with a cliff edge)
[06:29:01] <ShadwChsr> Hmmmmm I like the camera concept :)
[06:29:07] <ShadwChsr> Right now its just the "Screen" class
[06:29:09] <Darke> (X-Com line of sight) http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,199362-5,00.html http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,199362-3,00.html
[06:29:34] <ShadwChsr> WOW that game sure is showing its age LOL
[06:29:34] * sb-x creates a map with a drop to the void.
[06:29:43] <ShadwChsr> I remembered it looking cooler than it really is ;)
[06:30:00] <Darke> Showing it's age, but it's certainly got what it takes to still be played. <grin>
[06:30:09] <ShadwChsr> Yeah :)
[06:30:14] <sb-x> Too bad you couldn't "fall off" the edge of the ocean in U6.
[06:30:22] <sb-x> heh
[06:30:31] <sb-x> whats it take to still be played? i never played
[06:30:37] <ShadwChsr> Well my world is just going to be surrounded by endless ocean
[06:30:48] <ShadwChsr> That way its less weird when continents "myseriously" appear :)
[06:30:53] <Darke> Hmm... anyone know who an 'Adrian Clark' is? I've just got emailed by him asking about information on the u8usecode.
[06:31:10] <ShadwChsr> sounds like a character from a show or movie i know
[06:31:16] <ShadwChsr> hmmmmmmm it sounds real familliar
[06:31:31] * sb-x screams "AAaadrriiiaaaaannn!!!"
[06:31:45] <sb-x> sorry
[06:31:46] * Darke is sure he's heard the name, not from a movie or whatever. Probably from r.g.c.u.s
[06:35:07] <ShadwChsr> no idea
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[06:42:29] * Darke shrugs and replys to the email pointing him in the right place.
[06:42:32] <Darke> Hi flurotube.
[06:45:37] <sb-x> Flurotube makes me think of a flourescent light... tube thingy.
[06:47:58] * sb-x gives Darke a flurotube.
[06:54:36] * Darke watches it glow in his paws.
[06:54:49] <Darke> Ya know, I _really_ don't think it's supposed to do that.
[06:56:07] * sb-x backs away slowly.
[07:01:25] <Darke> Some nice quotes, a number of which I use regularly. <grin> http://www.csmngt.com/einstein.htm
[07:03:41] * Darke ponders radioactive bunnies.
[07:04:20] * Darke ponders Gamma World. He _likes_ Gamma World. Especially Hoops. <grin>
[07:07:06] <Soule> hey is there only one cat in Serpent isle?
[07:07:55] <ShadwChsr> No
[07:07:57] <ShadwChsr> Go to cat isle
[07:07:59] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[07:10:57] * sb-x destroys his stomach with powdered donuts and chunky salsa and lemonade.
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[07:12:53] <-- sb-x has left IRC (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: es_bee-ex!~sbx@
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[07:15:43] * Darke thwaps sb-x with a trout. Stop playing with MemoServ! <grin>
[07:16:14] <sb-x> :S
[07:16:19] <sb-x> MemoServ seemed to enjoy it.
[07:24:23] * Darke thinks there's so many possible responces to that, most of them in the 'not innocent' catagory, that he decides not to respond. <grin>
[07:34:04] <-- Soule has left IRC ("Leaving")
[07:34:12] <sb-x> :O
[07:34:58] <sb-x> Does "The Slit" invoke similiar ideas?
[07:35:16] <sb-x> Yesterday on the BlackBox mailing list someone said something to that effect.
[07:35:37] <sb-x> The list is discussing whether to rename "The Slit" to something else, like "The Dock".
[07:38:36] * Darke polite coughs. Yes.
[07:38:43] <sb-x> Hmm
[07:38:51] <sb-x> Not that I would know.
[07:39:15] * sb-x a completely innocent mind.
[07:39:18] <sb-x> :P
[07:39:21] * Darke spends far too much time around people where innuendo and puns are considered an artform. <grin>
[07:39:32] <sb-x> Maybe they should rename it then.
[07:39:35] <sb-x> Hehe
[07:40:01] <sb-x> Ironically, "Teresa's Green".
[07:40:07] <sb-x> Get it?!
[07:40:17] * sb-x looks proud of himself.
[07:40:20] <Darke> Apparently. <grin>
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[08:47:52] --- es_bee-ex is now known as sb-x
[08:48:09] <sb-x> Ooh
[08:48:13] <sb-x> --- services. sets mode +e sb-x
[08:48:41] <sb-x> Oh, it always did that. :P
[08:49:18] * Darke snickers.
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[09:29:40] <Darke> Hmm... a mention of exult's updates and the si-french project in GameSpy Daily.
[09:35:59] <sb-x> Got a link?
[09:38:08] <Darke> http://www.gamespydaily.com/ Scroll or seach for 'exult'.
[09:38:15] <Darke> s/seach/search/
[09:44:08] <sb-x> thanks
[09:50:31] <sb-x> Someone there must be interested. :-)
[09:52:08] <Darke> They report developments once every now and again, usually when we do a release. They must have thought the si-french development was of sufficient import to note. <grin>
[11:21:50] * sb-x drops a flurotube, resulting in a very loud and reverberating shattering noise.
[11:22:03] <sb-x> Wow, it's so quiet in here, you could hear a flurotube drop.
[11:37:15] <-- flurotube has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[11:37:45] * Darke watches a flurotube drop. Yep!
[11:43:47] <sb-x> ouch
[11:44:01] * sb-x will be more careful in the future.
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[12:02:16] * sb-x installs a new flurotube.
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[12:35:36] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[12:35:47] <Colourless> hi
[12:38:35] <Darke> Hi.
[12:39:05] <sb-x> Hi.
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[12:50:17] <Fingolfin> yo
[12:50:19] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Fingolfin
[12:50:43] <Colourless> hi
[12:51:13] <Darke> Hi.
[12:56:23] <sb-x> Hi.
[13:30:09] * Darke is slightly scared. He just wrote the 'documentation' for a new function, before he even coded it...
[13:31:12] <Colourless> hmm. sign of the apocalypse perhaps?
[13:32:36] <Darke> Maybe. I was updating the docs for a function of ucfiddle that I had created, but had forgotten to document, so I decided to add this new bit of documentation whilst I was at it.
[13:36:00] <Colourless> :-)
[13:43:58] <sb-x> Thou shalt fight to the death, or thou shalt be banished as a coward.
[13:44:04] <-- sb-x has left IRC ("tluxe")
[13:48:29] <Colourless> hmmm. There are a number of 'bugs' in pentagram that wouldn't normally be noticed.
[13:48:42] <Colourless> such as attempting to access the framebuffer without locking first :-)
[13:49:24] <Colourless> this is a big no no when using hardware surfaces, but is ok when using software surfaces
[13:49:50] * Darke tisks-tisks. Baaaaad Dragon!
[13:50:03] <Colourless> Hey, it was me who programed this.
[13:50:18] * Darke snickers.
[13:50:22] <Colourless> i'm fixing it all up and enabling the hardware surfaces. Pentagram at the moment only uses software surfaces
[13:50:40] <Darke> <nod>
[13:51:37] <Colourless> it 'should' be faster using hardware surfaces
[13:52:28] <Colourless> i also enabled double buffering, but it's kind of slow so it's disabled by default :-)
[13:52:36] <Darke> Incidentally, the flags in u8usecode acutally look like a in16 'flag number' and another bit of data. It's mostly 1, but can also be 2, 3, 5 and 16.
[13:52:49] <Darke> Cool!
[13:53:20] * Darke adds a useless bit of data, just for reference. <grin>
[13:53:23] <Colourless> hmm, strange
[13:54:18] <Darke> I've just added a 'feature' of ucfiddle to display them, so you can see for yourself. Although I really need to break it up properly when reading the flag number->name list, so it sorts properly, it's obvious then.
[13:55:50] <Darke> I would _think_ it would be a special flag, probably only used in the original usecode script for it somehow. It doesn't seem to have much of a relevance, although it could be a default value.
[13:57:08] * Darke originally suspected that each flag could possibly be an 'array' of flags. Since you're likely taking up a char with each flag, why not make use of it? But it doesn't look that way.
[13:57:59] <Colourless> well, u7 did some strange things with NPC flags.
[13:58:37] <Colourless> while they were all just a single bit, sometime the flags were actually global, and didn't actually effect a single npc at all
[13:59:38] <Colourless> why don't you document each case of a flag being set to something other than 1, and see which flags do it
[14:03:36] <Darke> <ponder> I should try that. I just need to finish the function parsing first. Apparently there are functions, that don't appear on the events list at the start, and I wasn't looking for them. Fun. <grin>
[14:03:58] <Colourless> yeah, most functions are not on the event lists :-)
[14:04:16] <Colourless> though i may just be confused about that
[14:04:32] <Colourless> what i do know is that most functions don't have events
[14:05:39] <Darke> It's one of those things that's 'obvious', but I didn't have an exception in the code to handle them. <grin>
[14:06:28] <Colourless> :-)
[14:07:42] <Darke> Anyway, I've just committed what I have so far, and I'll 'fix' the parsing of the flag details now in ucfiddle and disasm.cc. <grin> Then! I can bang my head against a wall for being so stupid. <grin>
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[15:35:05] * Darke yays, he's apparently successfully parsing all opcodes/functions/classes. Now to knock the memory usage down by 2/3rds.
[15:37:07] * Darke looks at the clock. "But first, sleep. <grin> Night!"
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[15:45:31] <wjp> hi
[15:45:40] <Colourless> hi
[16:06:38] <Fingolfin> yo
[16:06:45] <Fingolfin> q: look at http://fingolfin.dnsalias.net/~horn/fink/static.html. There is supposed to be no space between the two images, i.e. they should seemlessly connect. Works in IE, OmniWeb, not in Mozilla... any clue why that might be?
[16:07:30] <wjp> vertical or horizontal space?
[16:07:55] <Fingolfin> a horizontal space
[16:08:14] <Fingolfin> below the "text" on the image, is a white gap for me in Mozilla
[16:08:24] * wjp nods
[16:08:25] <wjp> for me too
[16:08:26] <wjp> (galeon)
[16:08:34] <Colourless> got a gap here on ie 6
[16:08:39] <Fingolfin> ah!
[16:08:40] <Fingolfin> interesting
[16:08:49] <Fingolfin> works fine in IE 5.1 over here
[16:09:13] <Fingolfin> at least that indicates it's not a bug in Moz :-) BUt it used to work fine and I am not aware of any changes... does anybody have an idea what could be wrong?
[16:12:18] <Colourless> try manually forcing the sizes of the cells
[16:17:09] <Fingolfin> well I still don't see why it is not working as it is - it should, and it used to, hrmpf
[16:17:23] <Fingolfin> see the align of the images
[16:18:01] <Fingolfin> works in galeon for somebody else, btw
[16:18:07] <Fingolfin> wjp: what galeon/engine version?
[16:18:25] <wjp> galeon 1.2.0
[16:18:42] <wjp> running on mozilla .... *looks*
[16:19:13] <wjp> 20020310
[16:19:27] <wjp> which probably is 0.9.9 or 0.9.8 or something
[16:19:30] <Fingolfin> 2002030108 for me
[16:19:32] <Fingolfin> yeah
[16:19:36] <Fingolfin> mine is 0.9.8
[16:19:40] <Fingolfin> your's is 0.9.9+ =)
[16:19:53] <Fingolfin> gap is now a it smaller for me =)
[16:20:00] <wjp> the 08 is behind mine as well
[16:20:18] <wjp> (but that's not really an interesting part)
[16:20:28] <Fingolfin> aye
[16:20:50] <Fingolfin> anyway, I just backed out the additional height/valigns, so it's back to "old"
[16:24:06] <Colourless> got it to work here
[16:24:31] <Colourless> added align="absBottom" to the first image
[16:24:39] <Colourless> and align="textTop" to the 2nd
[16:24:51] <Fingolfin> which are not valid HTML 4, though
[16:25:01] <Fingolfin> but I can use CSS for them instead
[16:25:06] <Fingolfin> still - it makes no sense to me
[16:25:29] <Fingolfin> if you reload my page, there is a second set of images (same img, different HTML), how do these look? Gap/nogap?
[16:25:54] <Colourless> btw, top can be used instead of texttop as that worked too
[16:26:12] <Colourless> they all look exactly the same
[16:26:23] <Fingolfin> ok
[16:26:48] <wjp> all look the same for me too
[16:28:10] <Fingolfin> and now? 3) is as ryan suggested
[16:28:23] <wjp> 3 is ok now
[16:28:47] <Colourless> yep ok here (obviously)
[16:30:26] <Fingolfin> what about 4?
[16:30:47] <wjp> ok too
[16:31:07] <Colourless> yeah
[16:44:11] <Fingolfin> interesting
[16:44:37] <Fingolfin> the problem seems to be that Mozilla (and IE 6) can't/don't render table rows below a certain height?
[16:44:45] <Fingolfin> I added a table cell border, interesting result
[16:45:30] <wjp> hm, yes
[16:47:25] <Colourless> hmm
[16:50:24] <Fingolfin> even if I add heiight attributes, no change
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[17:04:19] <artaxerxes> messieurs dames
[17:04:23] <Colourless> hi
[17:04:34] <artaxerxes> how's everyone today ?
[17:04:44] <Colourless> pretty good myself
[17:05:15] <artaxerxes> I'd just like to announce the existance of our new mailing list.
[17:05:37] <artaxerxes> sf.net/projects/si-french has a link
[17:05:48] <wjp> hi
[17:05:58] <artaxerxes> hi wjp
[17:06:26] <artaxerxes> we also have way more than 50% of usecode functions translated.
[17:06:48] <wjp> wow, that's quite a lot
[17:06:50] <artaxerxes> (only the big ones are left) ;-)
[17:07:21] <artaxerxes> we're having great fun... a tons of new people
[17:07:37] <artaxerxes> CVS helps a lot
[17:28:11] --- wjp is now known as wjp|dinner
[17:47:15] --- wjp|dinner is now known as wjp
[17:48:02] <artaxerxes> that was a quick dinner ! :)
[17:48:44] <wjp> :-)
[17:49:13] <Colourless> another largish pentagram commit by me :-)
[17:50:04] <Colourless> nothing too special, though some people might confuse mapdisp for an actual game now :-)
[17:50:24] <wjp> ?! :-)
[17:50:39] <Colourless> you'll see. it's to do with the so call icky animation hack
[17:51:49] <wjp> parse errors; yay :-)
[17:52:06] <Colourless> where what?
[17:52:26] <wjp> something about converting a RenderSurface to an SDL_Surface*?
[17:52:54] <Colourless> err where?
[17:53:00] <wjp> oh, conflicts
[17:53:01] <wjp> nm :-)
[17:53:42] <Colourless> good. I was going to say that nothing should be attempting to convert a rendersurface to a SDL_Surface * :-)
[17:55:52] <Colourless> oh, forgot to mention. I enabled window resizing
[17:56:51] * wjp notices tons of image corruption... oh, right... shape decompression isn't working yet
[17:56:52] <wjp> *sigh*
[17:57:05] <Colourless> :-)
[17:57:27] * wjp jumps. Whee!
[17:59:15] <Colourless> you in there are you?
[18:00:19] <wjp> ?
[18:00:43] <Colourless> in mapdisp
[18:00:49] <wjp> yeah
[18:01:01] <Colourless> left = jump, right = run
[18:01:15] * wjp nods
[18:01:16] <wjp> I noticed :-)
[18:03:43] <Colourless> if you go fullscreen. do a run jump, then press i (to disable interpolation) and do another run jump. Show a bit of a difference
[18:04:50] <wjp> hm, yes
[18:04:53] <wjp> quite noticeable
[18:05:17] <Colourless> smooth scrolling = nice :-)
[18:08:02] * Fingolfin comes back in
[18:08:10] <Fingolfin> hm, that sounds interesting, Colourless :-)
[18:09:04] * artaxerxes is dying to give a try
[18:10:58] <Fingolfin> artaxerxes: if you die, you can't try =)
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[18:11:12] <bj0ern> heya
[18:11:15] <wjp> hi
[18:11:21] <artaxerxes> =) can't take my machine in the hereafter
[18:11:32] <Colourless> hi
[18:11:38] <artaxerxes> hey bj0ern
[18:12:09] <bj0ern> hey =)
[18:12:19] <Colourless> wjp: now do you understand my comment about people confusing mapdisp for an actual game :-)
[18:12:53] <wjp> yeah :-)
[18:13:08] * wjp already found a bug, though: you can walk through walls! ;-P
[18:13:32] * artaxerxes chuckles.... will it support multiplayer ?
[18:13:55] * artaxerxes hits himself a bit with a large trout
[18:13:58] <Colourless> i bet people would also complain that it's not responsive enough :-)
[18:15:41] <Colourless> ah, also. the Z key will move the avatar up. Shift Z will move him down
[18:49:28] <wjp> lots of memory leaks :-)
[18:49:49] <Colourless> that's all of them :-)
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[19:03:37] <wjp> hi
[19:03:42] <Colourless> hi
[19:04:01] <armav> hi
[19:04:11] <artaxerxes> salut
[19:19:35] <armav> are any of the Ultima 7 data files compressed?
[19:19:49] <artaxerxes> the originals ?
[19:19:55] <armav> yup
[19:19:57] <artaxerxes> nope
[19:20:08] <wjp> depends... the images are RLE-encoded
[19:20:09] <armav> not even the intro background images?
[19:20:28] <armav> i was thinking more along the lines of LZW compression
[19:20:30] <artaxerxes> ah.. my mistake
[19:20:35] <Colourless> no lwz
[19:21:00] <armav> origin used lzw in ultima 4,5 and 6
[19:21:23] <armav> i guess they became aware of the patent issue by the time they started working on u7
[20:32:25] <artaxerxes> slow day today, eh ?
[20:32:41] <artaxerxes> or lots of hard coding people
[20:33:13] <Colourless> it's a normal day actually
[20:34:36] <artaxerxes> wjp: how's the usecode compiler doing? Is it what you are working on now?
[20:34:58] <wjp> I'm not working on the usecode compiler. That's Jeff's area mostly
[20:36:04] <artaxerxes> you guys have so much things to work on! Usecode compiler, bug fixing, exult studio, pentagram.... You'd need a full team for each of those tasks!
[20:47:28] <Fingolfin> oh but we have a full team for each!
[20:47:35] <Fingolfin> of course, the teams largely intersect
[20:47:49] <wjp> *grin*
[20:47:50] <Fingolfin> and some teams only have 1-2 members, but anyway =)
[20:47:51] <artaxerxes> =)
[20:49:07] <Colourless> it's kind of like how projects work in the real world... mostly they have the same teams... execpt normally things that are not run concurrently
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[21:10:31] <artaxerxes> must leave..... bye all
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[21:33:26] <Colourless> so, which one of us is going to have their opengl code done first... Jeff or me?
[21:41:35] <Fingolfin> well, I dunno, but you should both try very hard to be quicker =)
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[22:01:55] <armav> hi
[22:02:02] <Colourless> hi
[22:02:13] <armav> i'm having a tiny little problem with exult
[22:02:26] <armav> i'm using windows 98 SE and a German keyboard
[22:02:48] <Colourless> the keys aren't right?
[22:02:58] <armav> when i press Z, the game act as if i had pressed Y, and vice versa
[22:03:11] <armav> is this as exult bug or an sdl bug?
[22:03:17] <Colourless> i just have to say you have to live with it. It's a problem that we can't fix as it's a SDL buf
[22:03:23] <Colourless> s/buf/bug
[22:03:43] <armav> it's something that the sdl developers can't fix?
[22:04:06] <Colourless> no idea. It's a pretty old bug
[22:04:29] <Fingolfin> in fact
[22:04:42] <Fingolfin> one can argue whether it's a bug or a feature =)
[22:04:52] <Colourless> explain
[22:04:54] <Fingolfin> though by the SDL specs, it's a bug
[22:05:29] <Fingolfin> well, position based key maps can be useful for some games. However, SDL defines the keycodes as not equal to scancodes (i.e. they are supposed to be true abstractions), hence it's indeed a bug
[22:05:57] <Fingolfin> but obviously non-trivial to fix, unless you have access to the keymaps the given target OS uses
[22:06:30] <Fingolfin> which may not be trivial; in fact on OS X, there can be up to 4 different keymaps active at a time, and it's not possible to access all of them even, it's all a big mess :-(
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[23:29:23] <wjp> time for me to go
[23:29:25] <wjp> night
[23:29:30] <Colourless> cya
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[23:39:40] * Darke bows. Hello.
[23:39:50] <Colourless> hi :-)
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[23:44:49] * Darke has fairly solidly proven that his problems with mapedit crashing are a gcc3.0 bug, his problem now is trying to 'fix' it without upgrading to gcc3.1, which happens to have even more problems. <grin>
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