#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 17 Sep 2002 (GMT)

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[00:03:46] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz....")
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[12:03:10] <Colourless> hi
[12:03:55] <Darke> Hi!
[12:07:28] * Colourless accidently *cough* trips over and drops a container of bleach on Darke
[12:07:49] <Colourless> Sorry little bunny
[12:07:54] <Colourless> :-P
[12:09:13] * Colourless then grabs pink, blue, purple, green and yellow spray cans and liberally applies the colours to the now white bunny
[12:10:50] * Colourless snickers at the now multicoloured bunny
[12:11:51] * Darke oooooohs! and hops around frantically and multicolouredly. Yay! Colours!
[12:14:55] * Darke hugs the non-coloured dragon, giving him lots of little splotches of incompletely dried colour, then hops away quickly, looking for some sort of retalliation.
[12:15:46] <Colourless> aaw, how could i be mad at something like you
[12:19:57] * Darke rainbowfluffs, and idles for a bit.
[12:55:19] * Darke ponders if the gods of Time Scheduling would like a dragon sacrifice, then glances at a clock and pouts. No time. "Night all!"
[12:55:30] <Colourless> cya
[12:55:33] --- Darke is now known as Darke|afk
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[14:45:27] <GodBeastX> hey
[14:45:33] <GodBeastX> anyone alive?
[14:57:00] <GodBeastX> I guess they've all been slain
[15:05:00] <sBx|xBs> i am here
[15:05:07] --- sBx|xBs is now known as sb-x
[15:06:11] <GodBeastX> ^_^
[15:06:18] <GodBeastX> do you work on exult?
[15:06:24] <sb-x> no
[15:06:28] <GodBeastX> oh
[15:06:32] <sb-x> do you?
[15:06:45] <GodBeastX> I was gonna code an ultima 8 engine and I wanted to talk to some of the developers
[15:07:08] <sb-x> Darke|afk is a developer
[15:07:22] <GodBeastX> he must be afk
[15:25:44] --> wjp has joined #exult
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[15:25:46] <wjp> hi
[15:26:14] <GodBeastX> hey
[15:26:23] <GodBeastX> wjp: you are an exult coder?
[15:26:29] * wjp nods
[15:26:47] <GodBeastX> ^_^
[15:26:55] <sb-x> hi
[15:26:55] <GodBeastX> I was thinking about making an ultima 8 engine
[15:27:11] <GodBeastX> I noticed you guys had a viewer for ultima 8 maps already
[15:27:20] <GodBeastX> were you guys planning on doing one?
[15:27:26] <wjp> yes, sort of :-)
[15:27:33] <GodBeastX> oh
[15:27:43] <GodBeastX> is that like way off into the future?
[15:27:51] <wjp> we ( = Darke, Colourless and me) are kind of planning one
[15:28:09] <GodBeastX> you guys need help? ^_^
[15:28:13] <wjp> it's called 'pentagram', (http://sf.net/projects/pentagram)
[15:28:20] <GodBeastX> yeah, I seen that
[15:28:25] <GodBeastX> not too shabby
[15:29:23] <wjp> help is always welcome, of course :-)
[15:30:12] <GodBeastX> I tend to like ultima 8 more than 7
[15:30:13] <GodBeastX> heheh
[15:30:25] <GodBeastX> I'm sure die hard fans would shoot me for that
[15:30:32] <wjp> probably, yes :-)
[15:30:54] <GodBeastX> it's not cuz of storyline
[15:30:59] <GodBeastX> it's mostly gameplay reasons
[15:31:26] <wjp> please don't tell me you liked the jumping puzzles? ;-)
[15:32:00] <GodBeastX> oh, of course not
[15:32:08] <wjp> heh :-)
[15:32:34] <GodBeastX> I just liked the levels of freedom it gave, in fact, most of the reason I wanted to make an ultima 8 project is to make it fully edittable and enhanceable
[15:32:41] <wjp> U8 was the first Ultima I played; I still think it's pretty good :-)
[15:32:50] <GodBeastX> me too
[15:32:54] <GodBeastX> I bought 7 after 8
[15:33:04] <wjp> same here :-)
[15:33:06] <GodBeastX> but 7 made me feel like I was falling out of my computer chair all the time
[15:33:07] <GodBeastX> heheh
[15:33:29] <wjp> the internals of U8 are a lot better thought out than U7's
[15:33:39] <wjp> from what we know it's a very 'clean' engine
[15:34:04] <GodBeastX> I didn't want to make an engine though if someone else was planning one out
[15:34:08] <GodBeastX> why reinvent the wheel?
[15:34:14] <GodBeastX> efforts should be unified
[15:34:24] <wjp> indeed :-)
[15:34:36] <GodBeastX> so that's why I hopped on here
[15:35:12] <GodBeastX> do you guys do alot of disassembly to figure out data formats and such?
[15:35:21] <wjp> hm, no, not really
[15:35:46] <GodBeastX> do any of the ultima developers help out with information?
[15:36:50] <wjp> Jason Ely has posted a bit about U8 internals on usenet in the past, and might be willing to answer some questions
[15:37:21] <wjp> the graphics and map format have been decoded some time ago by 'The Mad Hatter' (IIRC)
[15:37:32] <GodBeastX> what about scripting?
[15:38:08] <wjp> we decoded most of usecode
[15:38:22] <wjp> that was _really_ fun to do
[15:38:28] <GodBeastX> so it's sort of just a matter of coding the engine? ^_^
[15:38:30] <wjp> one of the best puzzles ever :-)
[15:38:36] <GodBeastX> heheh
[15:38:51] <wjp> well, we're currently in a perpetual planning stage
[15:39:09] <GodBeastX> how do you confer with each other?
[15:39:19] <wjp> IRC and mailing list
[15:39:26] <GodBeastX> I see
[15:40:12] <wjp> Colourless is currently working on some rendering code, I think
[15:40:26] <GodBeastX> do you use opengl for rendering?
[15:40:27] <wjp> and Darke is most likely working on a disassembler and/or decompiler for usecode
[15:40:43] <wjp> we're planning on supporting opengl, but optional
[15:40:58] <GodBeastX> ok
[15:41:26] <GodBeastX> with SDL, using non-opengl has very negative effect on some people, doesn't seem to hardware accel apparently (from what I've been told)
[15:41:41] <wjp> brb, phone
[15:41:46] <GodBeastX> k
[15:42:08] <wjp> hm, short call :-)
[15:42:21] <GodBeastX> :)
[15:42:21] <wjp> non-opengl in SDL is fast enough
[15:42:51] <wjp> exult uses it, for example
[15:43:07] <GodBeastX> it's not on every computer
[15:43:23] <wjp> which OS?
[15:43:27] <GodBeastX> I'm only relaying what I've been told
[15:43:33] <GodBeastX> I personally am in win xp
[15:43:37] <GodBeastX> but I havn't tried exult in xp
[15:43:44] <wjp> SDL should just use directx in windows
[15:44:02] <GodBeastX> the pentagram map viewer runs about 10fps
[15:44:12] <GodBeastX> in windowed mode
[15:44:26] <GodBeastX> I didn't look at the rendering code though
[15:44:32] <wjp> very unoptimized
[15:44:37] <GodBeastX> that's what I figured
[15:44:55] <wjp> at which resolution did you run it?
[15:45:08] <GodBeastX> whatever is default
[15:45:21] <GodBeastX> looks about 800x600
[15:46:09] <wjp> I think it might be updating the full window each frame
[15:46:19] <wjp> but it's been quite a while since I wrote that :-)
[15:46:30] <GodBeastX> heheh
[15:46:40] <wjp> and then Colourless modified a lot, so I'm not all that sure what it's currently doing :-)
[15:46:55] <GodBeastX> it's having a private party
[15:47:08] <wjp> :-)
[15:47:30] <GodBeastX> but like I said, I'd like to assist in anyway I can
[15:47:58] <wjp> I guess we should start writing some actual code sometime soon :-)
[15:48:05] <GodBeastX> I've developed things from opengl quake 3 renderers to MFC Editting Studios
[15:49:12] <wjp> you might want to read through the ML archives to get an idea of what we've been talking about
[15:49:38] <GodBeastX> brb
[15:55:44] * sb-x waves and disappears in a flash of light.
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[16:03:19] <GodBeastX> back
[16:03:28] <GodBeastX> my boss needed help with some code I wrote
[16:03:29] <GodBeastX> heheh
[16:03:50] <GodBeastX> do you guys have any documentation on the file formats anywhere?
[16:04:00] <wjp> yeah, it's in pentagram's cvs
[16:04:23] <GodBeastX> what's the access parameters for the cvs?
[16:04:44] <wjp> http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=53819
[16:05:48] <GodBeastX> what's the module name?
[16:05:58] <wjp> pentagram
[16:06:16] <wjp> (we also have a module 'old' that contains the map viewer and things like that)
[16:06:30] <wjp> but the docs are in the 'pentagram' module
[16:06:34] <GodBeastX> k
[16:06:38] <GodBeastX> I'm getting it right now
[16:07:11] <GodBeastX> does wincvs work with ssh?
[16:07:34] <wjp> yeah
[16:07:41] <wjp> no idea how, though :-)
[16:07:49] --> Suvroc has joined #exult
[16:07:52] <Suvroc> hello
[16:07:54] <GodBeastX> heheh
[16:07:55] <wjp> hi
[16:08:00] <GodBeastX> hey Suvroc
[16:09:44] <GodBeastX> use code seems simple in design
[16:11:52] <wjp> in a way, yes
[16:12:11] <wjp> we don't know all the details of some opcodes yet, though
[16:12:46] <wjp> (specifically the ones related to multithreading/synchronisation)
[16:13:01] <GodBeastX> u8 is multithreaded?
[16:13:25] <wjp> at some level, yes
[16:13:34] <wjp> I'm not sure at which level exactly, though :-)
[16:13:41] <GodBeastX> heheh
[16:13:44] <wjp> usecode is multithreaded, anyway
[16:14:00] <GodBeastX> so it can run multiple scripts at once
[16:14:15] <wjp> yeah
[16:14:40] <wjp> although we think it's cooperatively multithreaded
[16:16:09] <GodBeastX> people didn't seem to make games as modular back then as they do now ^_^
[16:23:51] <GodBeastX> using paletted textures in opengl is not so nice
[16:24:32] <wjp> dunno :-)
[16:24:44] * wjp never did anything with opengl
[16:25:15] <GodBeastX> does ultima scale shapes or something?
[16:25:48] <wjp> why?
[16:25:53] <wjp> I don't think so
[16:26:01] <GodBeastX> Scaling
[16:26:02] <GodBeastX> -------
[16:26:02] <GodBeastX>
[16:26:02] <GodBeastX> Prescaling shapes using one of Kreed's scalers should be possible. It would
[16:26:02] <GodBeastX> probably be a good idea to scale the shape, and it's mask separatly, rather
[16:26:02] <GodBeastX> than attempting to use a colour key. Using ARGB8888 would pretty much be
[16:26:04] <GodBeastX> requried.
[16:26:16] <wjp> ah, that
[16:26:23] <wjp> that's to scale up the resolution a bit
[16:26:39] <GodBeastX> in opengl you just change the matrix to scale objects
[16:26:44] <wjp> yeah
[16:26:46] <GodBeastX> that's the beauty of textures ^_^
[16:26:59] <wjp> but the used scaler isn't necessarily the best one available
[16:27:07] <wjp> and we also need to support non-opengl :-)
[16:27:17] <GodBeastX> true ^_^
[16:27:24] <GodBeastX> scaling blit's
[16:27:26] <GodBeastX> heheh
[16:28:12] <wjp> real performance bottleneck :/
[16:28:32] <GodBeastX> I guess i fyou are doing software surfaces it would be
[16:28:44] <GodBeastX> hardware scaling isn't usually noticeable
[16:28:52] <wjp> scaling hardware surfaces manually is even more expensive
[16:29:07] <GodBeastX> why woul dyou have to do it manually?
[16:29:13] <wjp> our (Kreed's, technically) scalers are better than hardware :-)
[16:29:37] <wjp> (they look better, I mean)
[16:29:51] <wjp> and SDL doesn't support hardware scaling, I think
[16:30:25] <GodBeastX> odd
[16:30:55] <wjp> maybe SDL 2.0 will support it; dunno
[16:31:06] <GodBeastX> it is true though, hardware scaling can cause alot of blurriness
[16:31:08] <wjp> it doesn't help that many of the platforms SDL runs on don't support it
[16:31:26] <GodBeastX> it's in the video card though
[16:31:52] <wjp> not all platforms are PCs :-)
[16:31:59] <GodBeastX> true
[16:32:16] <GodBeastX> but I don't see why another platform's video card wouldn't support scaling
[16:32:32] <GodBeastX> I'd think it'd support it more-so ^_^
[16:32:51] <GodBeastX> pc's are at the bottom of the hardware pool afterall
[16:32:55] <wjp> :-)
[16:33:33] <GodBeastX> brb
[16:33:35] <wjp> if you really want to discuss rendering you should probably talk to Colourless, btw
[16:33:48] * wjp isn't all that 'into' graphics :-)
[16:37:31] <GodBeastX> heheh
[16:37:41] <GodBeastX> I'm just trying to understand
[16:37:50] <GodBeastX> colourless must like gray scale
[16:37:56] <wjp> hehe :-)
[16:40:41] <GodBeastX> texture caching
[16:41:09] <GodBeastX> who wrote the opengl.txt?
[16:41:16] <GodBeastX> colourless?
[16:41:21] <wjp> yeah, probably
[16:42:19] <GodBeastX> objects have a bounding box correct?
[16:42:32] <wjp> yeah
[16:42:39] <GodBeastX> it is 3d right?
[16:42:48] * wjp nods
[16:43:03] <wjp> we have both the 2d and the 3d bounding box
[16:43:10] <GodBeastX> mouse clicks should probably be ray casts then
[16:43:21] <GodBeastX> (reading about perspective modes)
[16:43:51] <wjp> there's a 'tracing mouse clicks' section too
[16:43:57] <GodBeastX> I read that
[16:48:17] <GodBeastX> his graphics errors from sprite is probably wrapping
[16:49:29] <wjp> this file is kind of old, btw
[16:49:37] <GodBeastX> ^_^
[16:49:45] <wjp> not sure if he clamped the textures here, no
[16:51:00] <wjp> but I would expect he did
[16:51:15] <GodBeastX> how would an irregular shape appear?
[16:51:51] <wjp> don't know
[16:52:29] <wjp> most shapes are non-rectangular, btw, because of the perspective used
[16:52:35] <wjp> (including the ground tiles)
[16:53:01] <GodBeastX> so the bounding box isn't always rectangular?
[16:53:24] <wjp> isn't a bounding box rectangular by definition?
[16:53:37] <GodBeastX> yeah
[16:53:48] <GodBeastX> so how is it non-rectangular?
[16:54:33] <wjp> maybe I mis-phrased it
[16:54:53] <wjp> the ground tiles just aren't rectangles on-screen
[16:55:38] <GodBeastX> I thought they were objects placed at an x/y/z location
[16:56:21] <wjp> yeah, they're rectangles in 3d, but not on-screen
[16:57:00] <GodBeastX> why does that matter?
[16:57:30] <wjp> dunno
[16:57:32] <wjp> :-)
[16:57:36] <GodBeastX> heheh
[16:57:45] * wjp probably misunderstood the original question then :-)
[16:57:57] <GodBeastX> ohhh
[16:58:04] <GodBeastX> this is about my irregular question
[16:58:35] <GodBeastX> basically from what I understand, objects all have a bounding box, then the sprite is sorta placed inside of that box
[16:59:20] <GodBeastX> right?
[16:59:38] <wjp> kind of vague, but I guess so, yes
[16:59:58] <GodBeastX> hmmm
[17:00:09] <GodBeastX> I guess I don't understand the rendering problem
[17:00:19] <wjp> which problem?
[17:00:29] <GodBeastX> if you have an x/y/z, why not build up a rendering list off of that and just draw the objects
[17:00:35] <GodBeastX> why all the bounding box issues
[17:00:53] <GodBeastX> in the "Drawing Shapes" section
[17:01:14] <wjp> that's for the 3d ordering
[17:01:49] <GodBeastX> so this issue doesn't exist normally?
[17:01:57] <wjp> you don't know in what order shapes have to drawn if you don't know their exact 3d bounding box
[17:02:38] <GodBeastX> their position isn't enuff?
[17:03:28] <wjp> no, you need the dimensions too
[17:03:55] <GodBeastX> hmmmm...
[17:04:03] <GodBeastX> and u8 doesn't supply that info?
[17:04:31] <wjp> it does
[17:05:01] <wjp> well, kinda
[17:05:01] <GodBeastX> hmmm
[17:05:18] <wjp> as Colourless mentions in there it supplies the dimensions for collision-detection purposes
[17:05:38] <GodBeastX> here's what I don't get
[17:06:07] <GodBeastX> he's talking about creating new bounding meshes and such for rendering, yet when we play ultima 8, it's all rendered fine without that info
[17:06:22] * wjp nods
[17:06:43] <wjp> but u8 doesn't use opengl to draw it :-)
[17:06:57] <GodBeastX> opengl is no different than hand drawing
[17:06:58] <wjp> it uses its own custom shape sorting algo (which we're not exactly sure about, yet)
[17:07:16] <wjp> doesn't opengl handle hidden surface removal?
[17:07:31] <GodBeastX> it depends
[17:07:38] <wjp> (as I said, I never did anything with opengl...)
[17:07:41] <GodBeastX> if you turn it on or not
[17:07:51] <GodBeastX> basically if I were to do this in opengl
[17:07:57] <GodBeastX> I'd just use it to render
[17:08:03] <GodBeastX> and ignore the Z values
[17:08:34] <GodBeastX> I mean, drawing a sprite is just 2 triangles and a texture
[17:08:41] <GodBeastX> instead of line by line copying pixels
[17:09:07] <GodBeastX> it doesn't make sense to take a whole other approach for the opengl renderer and the software one
[17:09:24] <wjp> you'd have to ask Colourless for the exact reasoning
[17:09:44] <GodBeastX> unless he was planning mad amounts of enhancements
[17:13:43] <GodBeastX> heheh, I'm in between channels
[17:14:03] <GodBeastX> I help teach people game programming in this other channel
[17:15:32] <GodBeastX> how often is colourless on?
[17:16:34] <wjp> pretty much every day
[17:16:42] <wjp> he was here earlier today
[17:16:55] <GodBeastX> oh
[17:16:56] <wjp> but he's usually here around this time too
[17:17:00] <wjp> (just not today :-) )
[17:17:07] <GodBeastX> heheh
[17:17:11] <GodBeastX> I'm a ward like that
[17:17:28] <wjp> I'll bbl, time for dinner
[17:17:39] <GodBeastX> since I have no knowledge of the sun, I tend to get alot of pyromancers trying to take my power
[17:19:02] <GodBeastX> you know, I was just getting into game programming when I first seen ultima 8
[17:19:22] <GodBeastX> ironic that I use technologies far more advanced than they do on the daily
[17:39:39] <GodBeastX> nice thinkchimp page ^_^
[17:39:42] <GodBeastX> I do web design too
[17:39:53] <GodBeastX> http://developer.fortressdesigns.com/shots/locfconq/shot-2.jpg <-- hex engine shot
[18:04:47] <wjp> back
[18:04:56] <wjp> thinkchimp?
[18:05:21] <GodBeastX> I didn't know what channel I was in
[18:05:22] <GodBeastX> heheh
[18:05:24] <GodBeastX> too many open
[18:05:43] <GodBeastX> where are you at on the earth?
[18:05:47] <GodBeastX> it's only 1 pm here
[18:06:45] <wjp> netherlands
[18:06:47] <wjp> 8 pm here
[18:07:03] <GodBeastX> whoah
[18:07:05] <GodBeastX> ^_^
[18:07:24] <GodBeastX> <-- united gates
[18:07:25] <wjp> ? :-)
[18:07:38] <GodBeastX> I call it the united gates cuz bill seems to own everything
[18:07:57] <wjp> :-)
[18:16:55] <GodBeastX> is the exult studio available for download?
[18:19:50] <wjp> yeah
[18:20:00] <wjp> it's not finished yet, though
[18:20:15] <GodBeastX> k
[18:20:43] <wjp> there's a windows binary on our download page
[18:21:04] <wjp> (under the 1.1.x snapshots; note that you'll need a 1.1.x exult too)
[18:21:14] <GodBeastX> ^_^
[18:21:31] <GodBeastX> I got a studio I made that's designed to be used for any game file type
[18:22:19] <GodBeastX> it's plugin based an passes a display context to all the apps, so you can render direct3d in any window, and it's meant for compiling game files down to whatever modules a person wants (I didn't finish that part yet)
[18:22:38] <GodBeastX> it could also be used as a C/C++ IDE ^_^
[18:39:48] <wjp> pity it isn't cross-platform since it uses dx :/
[18:39:53] <wjp> or d3d
[18:42:15] <GodBeastX> it lso uses mfc
[18:42:17] <GodBeastX> err also
[20:14:12] --> exultbot has joined #exult
[20:14:12] --- Topic for #exult is: Exult: an open-source engine for Ultima 7: http://exult.sf.net/
[20:14:12] --- Topic for #exult set by wjp at Fri Aug 9 21:00:39 2002
[20:19:13] --> artaxerxes has joined #exult
[20:19:20] <artaxerxes> yo!
[20:19:46] <artaxerxes> you hangin' quite a bit in the room Suvroc! :)
[20:20:39] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to artaxerxes
[20:20:41] <wjp> hi artaxerxes
[20:20:45] <artaxerxes> hi wjp
[20:21:14] <artaxerxes> I poped in as I have a question in which I would like to know your opinion
[20:21:27] <artaxerxes> what do you think is missing to the zaurus port ?
[20:21:47] <artaxerxes> now there is sound, zipped saves and sfx... what's missing?
[20:22:00] <Suvroc> hi artaxerxes
[20:22:07] <wjp> hm, dunno
[20:22:10] <Suvroc> yes, i'm everyday here
[20:22:18] <wjp> how about remote exult studio support? ;-)
[20:22:30] <artaxerxes> ohhhh... ugly... ;)
[20:22:58] <artaxerxes> can you already to remove exult studio ?
[20:23:02] <artaxerxes> s/to/do
[20:23:42] <wjp> s/remove/remote/ ? :-)
[20:23:58] <wjp> not right away, but it shouldn't be too hard to implement
[20:24:01] <artaxerxes> that too! :)
[20:24:07] <artaxerxes> sockets.
[20:24:14] <artaxerxes> portable material
[20:27:59] <artaxerxes> maybe toolbar... unless Colourless is on it
[20:28:24] <artaxerxes> I really wanted to touch the i18n asap although it has nothing to do with zaurus
[20:31:03] <artaxerxes> btw, why is "internationalization" shortened to "i18n" ?
[20:31:13] <wjp> the '18' stands for 18 letters
[20:31:22] <artaxerxes> :)
[20:32:15] <artaxerxes> how cheesy! :) but hilarious anyways
[20:35:22] <-- Suvroc has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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[20:35:52] <Suvroc> back... i was disconnected :/
[20:38:33] <GodBeastX> ?
[20:38:46] <GodBeastX> hi
[20:39:14] <artaxerxes> wb
[20:39:24] <artaxerxes> I have to leave...
[20:39:33] <artaxerxes> talk to you later!
[20:39:46] <GodBeastX> bye
[20:39:49] <artaxerxes> wjp: for the news as of yesterday: zaurus supports zip saves
[20:39:55] <artaxerxes> bye all
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[20:40:40] <wjp> I should be going too
[20:40:41] <wjp> g'night
[20:40:49] <GodBeastX> night
[20:40:50] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz...")
[20:40:53] <Suvroc> good night
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[21:43:34] <-- Suvroc has left IRC ("Follow the white rabbit...")