#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 18 Dec 2012 (GMT)

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[13:51:24] <i30817> The one thing that would make ecstatic about exult was a TB system replacing the usual combat system.
[13:51:26] <i30817> Say, KoTC level. Pity it will never happen.
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[15:55:59] <Dominus> i30817: who knows what will happen with exult. maybe some like you will come up with a combat system overhaul.
[15:57:08] <Dominus> u7's combat sucks and exult made it worse in some regards, though you can pause combat and assign different weapons stuff to party memebers if needed
[16:06:12] <Eviltar> hoe of destruction for the win
[16:27:49] <i30817> Eviltar: it's not because it's hard. It's because it's both random, brainless, and (normally) easy.
[16:28:20] <i30817> Press 'C' to win.
[16:28:24] <Eviltar> yeah
[16:28:53] <Eviltar> unless you like grinding for days on end tho, tbc gets old after a while
[16:29:06] <Eviltar> i mean I enjoy it in xcom and fallout
[16:29:17] <Eviltar> games that are meant to be more strategic
[16:30:28] <i30817> I seriously prefer games without grinding. Like bloodlines, that gives no combat XP _at all_
[16:30:30] <Eviltar> i guess i liked grinding in the old Ultima's, and old squaresoft rpg's
[16:31:22] <i30817> I find that it is the best way to make the designers care about the quest instead of the quest 'roles'
[16:31:25] <Eviltar> i sort of like games where you can do combat realtime or turnbased
[16:31:43] <Eviltar> so you can grind, or not, depending on your mood
[16:32:10] <Eviltar> and have more control over how combat goes
[16:33:07] <Eviltar> might and magic wasn't too bad, once you picked what actions you wanted people to do you could just hold one key for them to keep doing that
[16:33:21] <i30817> The only situation that approaches difficult in U7 is when you face a enemy with a ridiculous overpowered attack, like Liches. Then it's a race to see who can get that vortex of death first.
[16:35:10] <i30817> Also, the game suffers because it has a food & sleep system, but no real wounding system - hp is really easy to replenish.
[16:35:37] <Eviltar> yeah its definately not focused on combat
[16:35:55] <i30817> Another thing i've noticed over the years was how much better Serpent Isle if you gimp yourself and not buy spells
[16:36:29] <i30817> The transcribe spell turns finding spells into a really fun loot hunt.
[16:37:39] <Eviltar> i kind of appreciate the lack of being locked into a certain playstyle in Ultima
[16:37:46] <i30817> TBH, i wouldn't mind a mod that replaced one of the U7 pt:1 for it, added one spell scroll or two of each possibility and disabled spell sellers (like only makes sense for the Black gate anyway)
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[16:38:09] <i30817> Considering the mages are all loony.
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[16:38:56] <Eviltar> mods are always fun
[16:39:50] <Eviltar> I got a real kick out of meeting bill gates in U7
[16:40:37] <Eviltar> the one that lets LB join your party was novel also
[16:40:49] <i30817> Have you played KotC (knights of the chalice)?
[16:40:59] <Eviltar> no i havent
[16:41:34] <i30817> Really worth it. And it looks like ultima (just a bit uglier).
[16:42:02] <i30817> It's what made me think 'if only ultima 7 had this kind of combat'
[16:42:58] <i30817> Of course, there's the problem that the ruleset of KotC (a open version of D&D3) would have to be adapted to ultima spells (& enemies)
[16:44:07] <i30817> Also, a great part of it's challenge was that it had some 'death march' parts; where you couldn't turn back to rest (limited restings)
[16:44:36] <i30817> Sorta like a hardcore mountain of freedom.
[16:46:49] <i30817> Look at this trailer to see examples of the combat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6OLpqEZMAE
[16:53:45] <Eviltar> that looks pretty cool
[17:06:14] <i30817> Just don't use the crafting feats if you do play it. They're the 'win button' in this particular game.
[17:07:13] <Eviltar> personlly, if i want to strugle with realistic problems, i go outside
[17:07:28] <Eviltar> when im immersed in fantasy i sort of like winning
[17:07:58] <i30817> I like winning too. But not from pressing 'C'
[17:08:05] <Eviltar> ha true
[17:08:57] <Eviltar> you dont think its fun to watch your party beat down all the enemies ruthlessly? make a mod that nerfs the weapons maybe
[17:09:14] <Eviltar> and nerf the liche
[17:10:14] <i30817> Nah. It's the combat system and the AI. The companions being non-pc controllable too.
[17:10:15] <i30817> The game that made me realize a well done TB system is *miles* ahead of a Rt(with pause or not) system is jagged alliance 2.
[17:10:20] <Eviltar> idk if anyone has made a u7 mod to rebalance it
[17:11:08] <i30817> Balance would not be enough. The combat is really 'primary' because the player is not expected to do much, except occasionally to launch a spell.
[17:11:27] <i30817> I mean, be honest. Did you try to make the avatar chase enemies with his big sword?
[17:11:30] <Eviltar> did you play mass effect?
[17:11:48] <i30817> Nah. I blacklisted bioware after NWN.
[17:12:07] <i30817> vade retro santanan
[17:12:17] <i30817> Just terrible OC.
[17:12:35] <Eviltar> they had an interesting combat system where you could control weapon usage of your 'party' as well as spells, in kind of a RT and turn based mix sort of , through combat pausing
[17:14:39] <Eviltar> if there was at least a way you could select a spell or default attack for each party member it would be nice
[17:15:49] <i30817> I prefer a fully controllable party.
[17:16:04] <i30817> Even in RtwP systems.
[17:16:06] <Eviltar> there was a game i played that had a really decent combat AI but i dont remember what it was, you could set behaviors for each party member like heal others at 30% health
[17:16:33] <i30817> And the problem with those non-fully controllable party systems (even with fallout)
[17:16:33] <Eviltar> and set them to use different spells or attacks
[17:17:38] <i30817> Is that the tactical control goes out of the window.
[17:17:50] <i30817> And multi-stage strategies.
[17:17:54] <Eviltar> well like in fallout 1, and 2
[17:18:10] <Eviltar> you do fully control everything each turn
[17:18:47] <i30817> Like cast web, cast fireball (to get the burn bonus from web), cast web again (this all from party members), even before the enemy has a chance to move.
[17:18:50] <Eviltar> fallout 3 is kind of a different story, your party will piss you off because their AI is crazy
[17:19:33] <Eviltar> right
[17:19:38] <i30817> Of course, one of the problems of this kind of micro; is that computer game AI is already hopeless. It can't handle this kind of spanking
[17:20:07] <i30817> Another is that once a player finds something that 'works', they tend not to bother anymore, and repeat.
[17:21:45] <Eviltar> personally i think you'd have to reballance HP's and weapon and spell damages before turn based would be fun in U7
[17:21:47] <i30817> Fallout 1 & 2 you only control the pc. You can set some parameters of the companion AI, but it often doesn't work (Ian is famous for killing many players with a automatic)
[17:22:41] <Eviltar> yeah they werent that smart, you could get shot by your companion pretty easily
[17:22:55] <Eviltar> dogmeat was the best npc
[17:23:35] <i30817> I don't think that balance is enough. More like the systems on the game are really primary. You target a enemy, until it's dead, cast a overpowered random range attack if they're dangerous and wait until your npcs kill everything on range.
[17:24:07] <i30817> I've reached the conclusion that a good combat system is foremost composed of movement and reaction abilities, not attacks.
[17:24:47] <i30817> JA2, prone stances; running, attacks of opportunity (that can be 'engineered'), stealth, etc.
[17:25:35] <i30817> Tactical jrpgs: abilities to cross the field like a tower in chess, to grab enemies and pull them; to get 'formation bonuses' etc.
[17:25:54] <Eviltar> i see the Avatar as more godlike than ninja
[17:26:45] <Eviltar> although that would be an epic ultima game
[17:26:46] <i30817> After the ridiculous rewards of forge of virtue, i'd agree with that.
[17:27:01] <i30817> seriously, really bad idea.
[17:27:38] <Eviltar> well you know how they put the dark spin on batman now
[17:28:21] <i30817> Now? Batman was murdering Joker in the 90's. Grimdark Batman is not recent.
[17:28:34] <i30817> On the comics ofcourse.
[17:28:42] <Eviltar> well the movies, not the comics... it would be cool if someone could do without EA douchng it up, a modernized, darker Ultima
[17:29:24] <i30817> You haven't been checking the ultima news have you... i have bad news for you.
[17:29:46] <Eviltar> like a remake of pagan, would be more fitting for a combat system like what you're describing from ja2
[17:30:54] <Eviltar> no i usually check the reconstruction every once and a while to look for any cool remakes and etc
[17:31:35] <i30817> Eh, ja2 combat system wouldn't really work on a medieval game without completely OP ranged weapons (perhaps with cause)
[17:32:13] <i30817> ToEE did it as well as possible. IT had attacks of opportunity, and spears.
[17:32:30] <i30817> As well as gridless pathfinding in a turnbased game.
[17:32:57] <i30817> But no stances.
[17:33:10] <i30817> KotC added pinning to the ToEE mix.
[17:33:39] <i30817> As for the bad ultima news, there is a facebook 'ultima' planed. Looks like WoW.
[17:36:03] <Eviltar> https://www.facebook.com/UltimaForever
[17:36:06] <Eviltar> that?
[17:36:47] <Eviltar> i kind of like the art style
[17:36:53] <i30817> Yes, that abomination.
[17:36:55] <i30817> Anyway, as i have reached the conclusion that it's the 'movement' abilities that are important, i think RT systems are automatically disadvantaged in that. Not that they can't use them, but it's really too random.
[17:39:39] <Eviltar> I just started playing the new xcom, it's pretty fun so far
[18:54:11] <Serel> Just woke up. Did someone mention Fallout and NWN?
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[19:45:23] <Dominus> marzo, your usecode commit in Revision: 7193 sure breaks things left and right :)
[19:46:01] <Dominus> breaks haggling in BG https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=3597062&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[19:46:21] * Dominus did n't even know or remember that there was haggling in BG
[19:46:55] <Dominus> probably training in sI as well http://exult.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=463412&t=463412
[20:01:34] <Dominus> yup, definitely broken around that usecode commit
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