#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 19 Jan 2005 (GMT)

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[00:34:05] --> servus_ has joined #exult
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[00:40:44] <servus_> Can someone paste my channel entry string?
[00:40:55] <servus_> Never mind.
[00:42:24] <sbx> :)
[00:44:49] <servus_> See that's the second time they changed my IP today./
[00:45:36] <sbx> How do you update your domain name?
[00:46:04] <servus_> SamMatthews.com?
[00:46:29] <servus_> My router has a setting to contact dyndns.org with update information, but I Don't use it, so the domain is frequently out of date these days :)
[00:46:32] <sbx> yep
[00:46:42] <Lord_Nightmare> --> servus_ (~servus@66-215-33-45.hes-cres.charterpipeline.net)
[00:46:44] <sbx> ok
[00:46:44] <servus_> You can use my entry string as my IP though
[00:47:03] <servus_> Thanks, Lord_Nightmare, see they changed me from a 22.*.*.* address to a 66.*.*.*... Charter Cable is absurd.
[00:47:29] <servus_> I wish I could grep the ExultBot logs to see what my IP up here used to be...
[00:47:36] <sbx> You don't have static IP service?
[00:49:06] <servus_> It costs five billion dollars extra with Charter.
[00:49:21] <servus_> They tell me to buy it if I want to use my Internet for professional reasons, like playing games or downloading files.
[00:49:39] <sbx> I only asked because I thought maybe you did but they were changing it anyway. :)
[00:49:51] <sbx> hehe
[00:50:07] * sbx plays some Q3A maps with "pro" in the title.
[00:50:30] <Lord_Nightmare> --> servus_ (~servus@24-205-122-3.bb-cres.charterpipeline.net) has joined #exult
[00:50:53] <sbx> cause you moved from bb-cres to hes-cres
[00:51:05] <servus_> That's odd.
[00:51:16] <servus_> BigBear-Crestline (I'm closer to Crestline) to Hesperia-Crestline
[00:51:31] <servus_> I've seen someone else from Hes-Cres in the phorum
[00:54:10] <servus_> Can't find it now, of course
[00:54:14] * servus_ is fixing bugs in the renderer.
[00:57:42] * servus_ is trying to make lighting look [a lot] better
[01:00:50] * servus_ is seeing too much green, and not enough blue
[01:03:42] <servus_> Mmm I love that shade of purple (RGB .5,.5,1
[01:06:14] <Colourless> why are you rendering normals?
[01:10:55] <servus_> Colourless, because my normals are incorrect and this is the best way to correct them :-)
[01:11:33] <servus_> Colourless, when compiling Exult in Visual Studio 2003, do you have to recompile the entire project when you change one source (.cc) file?
[01:18:47] <Colourless> no
[01:19:07] <Colourless> is a 'problem' with the flex compiling
[01:19:19] <Colourless> everytime you do a rebuild it rebuils the flex and flex header
[01:19:37] <servus_> Well it rebuilds a lot every time I change a .cc file
[01:19:38] <Colourless> so any file that includes the flex header gets recompiled
[01:19:54] <Colourless> probably about 15 files
[01:20:02] <Colourless> but never the entire thing
[01:20:32] <Colourless> only takes a few seconds so it doesn't bother me
[01:21:20] <Colourless> if you included one of the header in the pch (msvc_kludges.h) though would force a recompile of the entire project
[01:23:42] <Colourless> could probably fix it by making expack only generate the flex and header if the files are newer
[01:24:01] * Colourless adds it to list
[01:26:23] <servus_> Well my model3d.cc only includes model3d.h, which only includes shapes.h I think
[01:30:04] <servus_> Well, lighting on mountains looks decent now, though the interface between mountain tiles isn't as good as it could be, because when I'm exporting, I of course don't have topology information for the connecting mountain piece, and can't smooth out the normals...
[01:31:32] <servus_> http://66.215.33.45:81/images/screenshots/Exult3D-35.jpg so you can see the good and bad of what I'm describing
[01:34:50] <Colourless> need to adjust your normals
[01:35:42] <servus_> For what? They're fine. The edges just don't have topology information for the next piece over. I'd have to put it in some sort of crazy hack to allow it to know
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[02:12:49] <servus_> Another bug bites the dust, doo-doo, another bug bites the dust...
[02:14:14] <sbx> Rocks sure would look cool with shadows.
[02:15:18] <servus_> Substance first. Eyecandy later, unless you want to do it yourself :-)
[02:15:48] <sbx> True.
[02:15:59] <sbx> And reflective water.
[02:18:10] <servus_> It took me a long time to learn how to do all that stuff [efficiently], so if you're going to add it, you'd better start reading :-)
[02:30:44] <Lord_Nightmare> servus_: in the 'abyss' screenshots, do the red and blue globes reflect your life and mana?
[02:31:50] <servus_> Yep, Lord_Nightmare, they even work and are filled up according to 4 different values that they are given pointers to.
[02:32:25] * Lord_Nightmare has never played ultima underworld
[02:37:48] <servus_> You should. The graphics still hold up fine and they even play in Windows XP on most motherboards.
[02:38:00] <sbx> You already got that advanced stuff in Abyss so you should be able to add it to Exult3d.
[02:38:20] <servus_> Hehehe.
[02:38:30] <servus_> That engine is complete. It just needs game content.
[02:39:43] <sbx> But I'm not volunteering so I'll stop asking.
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[02:41:31] <servus_> :-)
[02:41:49] <servus_> I have a lot of fun working on that engine. I think it has a very unique look and feel.
[02:46:25] <servus_> That's what I was doing while not working on Exult.
[02:48:24] <Lord_Nightmare> abyss is a modern ultima underworld engine?
[02:48:59] <Lord_Nightmare> (thats what i thought...)
[02:51:01] <sbx> I thought it was a remake.
[02:51:09] <Lord_Nightmare> and what are madness and zoink?
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[03:03:19] <servus_> Lord_Nightmare, Different terrain engines. Abyss (which includes my Bonk! physics engine) is just an Underworld-/flavoured/ engine.
[03:04:22] <servus_> Abyss is also a way for me to test out new graphical ideas I have:)
[03:04:46] <servus_> This screenshot here http://66.215.33.45:81/images/screenshots/Bonk01.jpg shows about every feature that Doom 3 has.
[03:04:52] <servus_> Graphically, that is
[03:15:01] <Colourless> actually, it's missing 1 feature from doom 3... subtlety... a bit excessive on those specular highlights :-)
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[03:42:50] <servus_> Colourless, ow, burn. Actually, I *intentionally* upped the specular highlights for debugging purposes. You must know by now that I debug everything I can graphically :-)
[03:50:01] <servus_> Beside, those are diffuse highlights.
[03:52:10] <Colourless> looks like someone exploded a paint bomb in there that was filled with lacquer :-)
[03:54:06] <sbx> Is the character model highpoly?
[03:54:19] <servus_> glTexEnvf( GL_TEXTURE_ENV, GL_RGB_SCALE_ARB, 4.0f );
[03:54:30] <servus_> It's very low poly with a normal map.
[04:38:27] <servus_> Time to model some mushrooms
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[05:30:05] <servus_> Do you have any idea how many mountain shapes there are in Ultima VII?
[05:30:19] <servus_> And all my replacements fit together perfectly :>
[05:30:20] <Colourless> lots
[05:30:33] <servus_> 106, actually.
[05:30:52] <servus_> I've got 100 done. The rest are cave doors that are vexing me for right now
[05:31:16] <servus_> Most of the mountains are identical repeats
[05:31:26] <servus_> Indeed, many NPCs are repeated in the shapes.vga verbatim
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[05:38:20] <servus_> Hmm, it looks like a lot of these huge peak-alignment errors might be my fault... I Hope they all are
[05:38:47] <servus_> The caddelite collection pit looks pretty awesome though :-)
[05:39:55] <servus_> Yes, I just saw some corner pieces as straightaways...
[05:51:35] <servus_> Still having a few problems, looks like some stem from the map designers using corner mountain wall pieces as straightaway glue...
[06:01:05] <Colourless> yep
[06:01:21] <Colourless> tend do that on large mountain ranges
[06:01:29] <servus_> They don't do it very often
[06:01:45] <servus_> There is now only 1 defect that I can find over Despise mountain range, and it's not my fault :-)
[06:01:56] <Colourless> do it in si
[06:02:13] <servus_> Exult3D doesn't officially support SI yet.
[06:02:15] <Colourless> much of the mountains in SI are only partially fored
[06:02:19] <Colourless> *formed
[06:02:46] <servus_> Yeah... well I do know that... I'd like to say lazy artists but it was probably overly-constrained-by-deadlines artists.
[06:02:57] <Colourless> I doubt either
[06:03:17] <servus_> Well we know about the deadlines that supposedly cut out plenty of SI plot.
[06:03:19] <Colourless> more like if player is never going to see the top, it's easier to not model it
[06:03:34] <Colourless> easier then to build underneath the mountain
[06:04:09] <servus_> Well, mountains are starting to really take form. All I have to do model for them now is cave entrances ;-)
[06:04:54] <servus_> Want a magic carpet ride (picture)?
[06:05:28] <Baastuul> Yes
[06:06:00] <servus_> Any location in particular?
[06:09:26] <servus_> OK you're getting a long-range shot of Isle of Fire.
[06:21:01] <servus_> http://66.215.33.45:81/images/screenshots/Exult3D-36.jpg
[06:26:10] <Colourless> that looks great
[06:26:58] <servus_> Thanks... it's getting there. I want to take a break from modelling for a while and get to programming... but not tonight; I need sleep soon
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[07:23:12] * servus_ checks cave doors, and thus the entire mountain set, off the list.
[07:24:42] <shazza> anymore pics ^_^
[07:27:03] <servus_> Pleh I'm trying to sleep:) What do you want to see?
[07:32:56] <servus_> http://66.215.33.45:81/images/screenshots/Exult3D-37.jpg OK you can see the "mostly works" effect of high peaks on mountains. 'Night!
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[16:04:58] <Fl00der> hi
[16:05:10] <Fl00der> servus_: you there?
[16:06:20] <Fl00der> hmm...well I was only going to ask how's progress in Exult3D :)
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[18:16:21] <Jammet> Rubbeldiekatz.
[18:44:06] <sbx> hi
[18:44:17] <sbx> Jammet: Did you finish SI yet?!
[19:37:41] <Jammet> sbx: =^_^= Mew. Not yet. I have to restart again. This time I'm even backing up savegames like every other cat does.
[19:37:50] * Jammet goes purrpurr.
[19:38:07] <Jammet> But I'm giving the restart a little time.
[19:38:58] <Jammet> With every attempt to make it through the game... it gets easier. That's a good thing. =)
[19:39:27] <Jammet> And no cows of the dead for me.
[19:40:19] <sbx> ey
[19:40:22] <sbx> What happened?
[19:40:32] <sbx> How will you finish if you keep restarting.
[19:40:34] <sbx> ?
[19:40:58] <sbx> "cows of the dead"?
[19:40:59] <Jammet> It makes me look stupid I guess. =(
[19:41:01] <Jammet> I'm sorry.
[19:41:08] <sbx> What's that mean?
[19:41:09] <sbx> heh, not really
[19:41:12] * Jammet poofs.
[19:41:16] <sbx> I didn't mean to sound rude.
[19:41:17] <Jammet> Forget the cows thing. It's from the phorum.
[19:41:29] <sbx> Yes I read that now that you mention it.
[19:42:15] <sbx> It's better to restart if it's easier and you don't remember enough to continue from a savegame.
[19:42:28] <sbx> Is there any particular reason you want to restart?
[19:42:59] <Jammet> I'll try once more... I thought ... maybe wait until the 3D round 1 bell sounds. Try it like that, for the fun of it. Might be better to finish the game the first time around with it looking like that. Not that it's important what it looks like. But I thought ...wait another cycle. Forget a few answers. I like surprises.
[19:43:22] <Jammet> I lost my exult directory all at once and the savegames too.
[19:43:40] <Jammet> So, it wasn't really by choice.
[19:43:47] <sbx> oh no
[19:43:49] <sbx> how did that happen?
[19:44:14] <Jammet> I couldn't figure it out. It looks like I must have accidentally deleted them. But I would never.
[19:44:35] <Jammet> But it's the only possibility. Nobody else could and there were no error messages.
[19:45:18] <sbx> yeah, that sucks
[19:45:24] <sbx> I don't even keep backups of my games.
[19:45:49] <Jammet> I burned the new exult dir with all the savegames I could find to a CDRW. And I'll refresh that every now and then.
[19:46:05] <Jammet> Meaning, all savegames of all games that I have.
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[19:46:30] * Jammet groomgrooms softly.
[19:46:56] <sbx> I'd like to play through the game with Exult3D too. But SI is not supported yet.
[19:47:12] <Jammet> Oh. Alright...
[19:47:40] <sbx> I think it will be, but BG will be first.
[19:47:56] <sbx> Though it might just be the 3D models. You could play it without them.
[19:47:58] <Jammet> All those models... I wonder why they were created. I thought the 3D mode would be kept so that no models will have to be created. By making everything cube shaped...
[19:48:15] <sbx> I bet they were created so everything wouldn't be cube shaped. :)
[19:48:34] <sbx> It looks really good now I'm sure you know from the screenshots.
[19:48:40] <Jammet> I wonder how much bigger the game data will be after finishing up that step.
[19:49:12] <Jammet> Yes, I loved the way it looks. Although, we leopard cubs always come up with silly ideas how to make things look better. =) Maybe you read'em.
[19:49:27] <sbx> the 3dmodels folder now is already 4MB and that's without mountains
[19:49:38] <sbx> servus can probably estimate the final size
[19:50:05] <sbx> But I think turning the 2D shapes into 3D shapes was a neat trick too.
[19:50:21] <sbx> Not everything has to have 3d models made for it.
[19:50:25] <Jammet> I got kinda inspired by Rescue on Fractalus and Outcast. Voxels and Fractals you know. I was wondering if things would look a little less like fine geometric lines with some random ups and downs here and there.
[19:50:29] <Jammet> Yes...
[19:51:12] <Jammet> Grass could look kinda nice if it were like.. voxels.
[19:51:25] <Jammet> Just random ideas.
[19:52:39] <sbx> I never played those games.
[19:52:46] <Jammet> Fireplaces could have a soft glow that would flicker like real fire.
[19:52:53] <Jammet> Did you ever see a voxel engine?
[19:53:01] <sbx> Screenshots. I thought voxels was just for terrain?
[19:53:19] <Jammet> Yes. Outcast used voxels for terrain only. Houses were models. And so forth.
[19:53:28] <sbx> But grass?
[19:53:31] <Jammet> It looked stunningly cool.
[19:53:58] <Jammet> Nevermind. I was just playing with the thought anyway.
[19:54:30] <sbx> I just think mountains should be taller.
[19:54:30] <Jammet> The difference would mainly be, that things would look less like 2D tilesets that make up a 3D world.
[19:54:47] <sbx> yeo
[19:54:50] <sbx> yep*
[19:54:55] <Jammet> I read that taller mountains will result in more problems. Flying and such.
[19:55:25] <sbx> yeah :(
[19:55:47] <Jammet> I too wondered about that. I thought ... maybe there could be clouds.
[19:56:10] <sbx> Yeah. He can definately replace the current clouds, but those aren't constant.
[19:56:12] <Jammet> Clouds to be at the max real height of the mountains. But you could fly above the clouds to get somewhere.
[19:56:30] <Jammet> I meant using clouds as mean to get higher mountains.
[19:56:37] <sbx> ?
[19:57:07] <Jammet> Meaning ... if you do not fly, you would see real high mountains. Vanishing into a layer of clouds.
[19:57:26] <Jammet> But if you fly, you can go above the clouds and the mountains are below you.
[19:57:31] <Jammet> The tips that is.
[19:57:42] <sbx> Would the clouds be covering the mountains?
[19:57:50] <sbx> Would that look good at a high camera angle?
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[19:58:06] <Jammet> They would be slightly transparent when you fly and look down...
[19:58:18] <sbx> I mean when you look down while your walking.
[19:58:40] <Jammet> I do not know if that would look good, but it'd certainly make it possible to have huge mountains and still fly normally. A visual trick, that's all.
[19:58:55] <sbx> Yeah. So you'd just have to change the models when flying?
[19:59:07] <Jammet> Look down while walking? You'd see the ground. Grass, etc.
[19:59:47] <sbx> You can see mountaintops too.
[19:59:59] <Jammet> Basically what I mean is ... the second you start flying, and go above cloud-level, switch the view to reveal that you are now high in the air, above the tips of the mountains. U7 original style. If you are not flying, make them look huge.
[20:00:51] <sbx> I understand now.
[20:01:14] <sbx> For now there will be a skybox probably with clouds drawn on it. :)
[20:02:03] <Jammet> I just meant it so that when standing on ground ... the mountains look like big real mountains - with clouds below their tips. And when flying it looks the way it does right now but with clouds just below the tips, but transparent, when you're flying. And yes, a skybox would be necessary.
[20:04:47] * Jammet curls up and snuggles a happy squirrel-shaped pillow. Purr.
[20:06:14] <sbx> I think he should have an updated modelpack.
[20:06:39] <Jammet> I've seen servus's mountains on a piccie. They were nice. =)
[20:07:07] <sbx> yep
[20:07:37] <sbx> besides modelling them apparently he had to do some extra work to get them to fit together
[20:07:45] <sbx> and look correct
[20:07:51] <Jammet> That idea about mountains and making them look big by using clouds to fool the player a little ... do you think that could be good? You don't fly so much in the game, I guess. Most of the time you're on foot.. right? I'd think that'd be worth the look of big mountains.
[20:08:57] <Jammet> It's a small visual inconsistency but the effect ...
[20:09:38] <sbx> I don't know... I'm still not sure what it looks like.
[20:09:42] <sbx> But yeah you don't fly that much.
[20:10:22] <Jammet> It's simply 2 perspectives. The one we know (screenshots) with flat mountains, when you fly. Just add a thin layer of clouds. Clouds you are looking at ... from above.
[20:10:42] <sbx> I don't know if it's any more possible than actual big mountains. He has to change something to make the view change when you use the carpet.
[20:10:59] <Jammet> The other perspective would be, say, 3rd or 1st person or free-look, you see the layer of clouds from the ground instead, but the mountains are too big and fade off into the sky or clouds.
[20:11:28] <sbx> Except you can zoom way out.
[20:11:40] <sbx> In most of the screenshots the view is from the sky.
[20:11:46] <Jammet> Or use some kind of overly-sized field of vision effect.
[20:12:24] <sbx> yeah
[20:15:14] <sbx> I'm also hoping for 3D chunks/tiles.
[20:15:28] <Jammet> Like what?
[20:15:51] <sbx> A river could be dropped down a few units for a nice visual effect.
[20:15:59] <sbx> like a riverbank
[20:16:00] <Jammet> Yes ...
[20:16:04] <sbx> but its not a big deal
[20:16:21] <sbx> Or what about animated ocean waves?
[20:16:32] <Jammet> That's what I meant with voxel .. using that for an effect like this, perhaps with height simply based on colours... it might look good.
[20:16:53] <Jammet> Voxel waves must be real simple to do I believe.
[20:17:07] <Jammet> Sorry for going blabla, but I get what you mean.
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[20:17:52] <Jammet> Too bad you can never dive in Ultima 7. A whole new possibility would be there for some kind of underwater region.
[20:18:17] <Jammet> Forgotten city ... treasure, you name it.
[20:18:56] <sbx> Yeah I think he should feel free to add all kinds of effects. But for now it's just a shape conversion.
[20:19:11] <sbx> changing as very little of the game as possible
[20:19:45] <Jammet> Fine by me. The perspective switch I suggested is something a little to advanced for now anyway. You need a skybox. No way around that.
[20:19:54] <sbx> In SI the water has caves/dungeons under it. :)
[20:20:12] <Jammet> And if possible, it should be a skybox that has day/night cycle and some form of weather with clouds. =)
[20:20:43] <Jammet> Cool ... just imagine you could walk in the water and explore those caves and stuff.
[20:21:14] <Jammet> A little like U9. I must admit that's stuff that is in U9 that I'd miss here.
[20:21:17] <sbx> They aren't phsyically there, they just put them there because there was no space under the mountains. :)
[20:21:28] <sbx> I think the water in SI is like mountains.
[20:21:37] <sbx> Which is why you can't get a ship in the game.
[20:21:50] <sbx> They should have added multimap like Exult has now.
[20:22:01] <sbx> But they didn't have time for that.
[20:22:12] <Jammet> So that means it would be lots of hacks just to make traversing the water possible. Okay scrap the idea. =)
[20:22:37] <Jammet> If by multimap you mean something like having layers and real 3D, yes.
[20:22:38] <sbx> they=Origin, multimap=possibility of multiple game maps you can teleport between
[20:22:55] <Jammet> Ah, okay.
[20:22:57] <sbx> I'm not sure what that means.
[20:23:12] <sbx> But Exult[2D] has multimap capability now.
[20:23:27] <sbx> For new game designers.
[20:23:42] <sbx> And you have to add new maps with ExultStudio.
[20:23:57] <Jammet> I thought the idea would be much simpler. Just like an image in the gimp. You have layers. Some layer is earth. Below that is more solid earth. Below that is the ground water level. Anywhere in the game you dig further, you'll find that you reveal water. A few layers above is the sky, so you have several layers inbetween for mountains.
[20:24:42] <Jammet> I always thought it works like that. Rooftops have their own layer, and so forth.
[20:25:06] <sbx> No everything is in continuous space on a chunk, but at different Z levels.
[20:25:31] <Jammet> Must be really hard to align objects that should be placed ontop that way.
[20:25:39] <Jammet> Without the proper tools.
[20:25:47] <sbx> It sure would be easier with a 3D editor. ;)
[20:25:54] <sbx> Exult3D has a layer grid.
[20:25:59] <sbx> or grid layer?
[20:26:05] <sbx> and you set the Z level of that and new objects go there
[20:26:13] <sbx> ExultStudio* Sorry
[20:26:17] <Jammet> Yup.
[20:26:41] <sbx> using the layers like you mentioned would be cool but u7 didnt do it
[20:26:46] <sbx> as far as I know
[20:27:15] <sbx> Theoretically you could connect BG and SI into one giant contiguous gameworld now, but it's not worth the required work.
[20:27:18] <Jammet> I'm a simple mind so that's why I thought you have like ... 255 layers with layer 100 being earth level ...say Z=1-255. And you put identifiers of tiles and objects in there and that's that. Guess it's all a lot more complex.
[20:27:51] * Jammet noddles and understands that now.
[20:28:12] <sbx> well if you think of it that way, you could say there are many many layers :)
[20:28:14] <sbx> but ground is at 0
[20:28:16] <sbx> or 1
[20:28:34] <Jammet> Okay.
[20:28:47] <sbx> I think it's a reasonable idea too. I'd probably have put ground at 0/1.
[20:29:04] <Jammet> If you've ever played that open source 1st person shooter? The way it's editor works is another example of how I thought this one works. =)
[20:29:09] <sbx> Clouds have a Z position too.
[20:29:12] <Jammet> Everything's made of tiny cubes.
[20:29:25] <sbx> that sounds cool
[20:29:35] <sbx> I didn't play it.
[20:30:02] <Jammet> If you start with an empty map in Cube and you lower the floor (start the game and press E and then you can edit stuff like with the hack mover)...
[20:30:20] <Jammet> You lower the ground, you suddenly see the fixed water level.
[20:30:30] <Jammet> That's where the idea's from, and the Gimp.
[20:31:05] <Jammet> I guess good old Populous worked that way, too =).
[20:31:42] <sbx> Populous certainly has interesting looking graphics.
[20:31:49] <sbx> I played it a little bit.
[20:32:04] <Jammet> Yup... I never got into it but, it looked interesting.
[20:32:05] <sbx> I also played the 3D one with a sphere world.
[20:32:30] <Jammet> I don't remember having played that one.
[20:32:51] <sbx> Like you move around the world in Populous you can freely move around the globe.
[20:33:14] <Jammet> I see Magic Carpet, that old Dos game, but I'm sure you don't mean that.
[20:33:49] <wjp> populous... that was quite long ago :-)
[20:34:02] <Jammet> =^_^= Mew wjp!
[20:34:06] <wjp> hi :-)
[20:34:45] <Jammet> I'm spamming your irc log full of meows today. =)
[20:35:31] <Jammet> I had a thought about the mountains a bit earlier today, maybe it is interesting, maybe it is not, but if you read it, I'd like to know what you'd think.
[20:37:07] <wjp> hm, I'm really not the right person to consult about 3D stuff :-)
[20:38:43] <Jammet> =) Just wondering if you'd think that'd look strange.
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