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[09:21:25] <olivieryk> guyz
[09:21:27] <olivieryk> wake up
[09:21:59] <olivieryk> post something on the web site
[09:22:08] <olivieryk> it's dead since may
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[11:11:23] <Colourless> hi
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[11:22:34] <Darke> olivieryk: Probably wouldn't be a bad idea, though not much has really happened, from memory, except for various bug fixes.
[11:22:54] <Darke> Though I suppose that beta of 1.1 is 'supposed' to be happening soon...
[11:23:24] <Colourless> for exult, soon is relative to geological ages
[11:24:07] <Darke> Heh.
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[17:09:31] <olivieryk> Good Afternoon
[17:09:37] <olivieryk> :)
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[17:42:16] <ShadwChsr> hey :)
[17:46:53] <wjp> hi
[17:49:51] <olivieryk> yo
[17:50:26] <ShadwChsr> What do you recommend as a good sorting algorithm for the render list? :)
[17:50:44] <Colourless> one that works
[17:50:58] <Colourless> :-)
[17:51:33] <Colourless> in pentagram we use a tree
[17:51:44] <Colourless> i couldn't tell you exactly what 'type' of tree, except it's a tree
[17:52:53] <Colourless> exult uses a tree too
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[17:54:57] <ShadwChsr> :)
[17:57:05] <olivieryk> any plans for exult 1.1 guys?
[17:57:18] <Colourless> sure, there are plans
[17:57:24] <olivieryk> YEAH
[17:57:32] <olivieryk> "when it's ready"
[17:57:46] <Colourless> no, it's 'real soon now'
[17:57:52] <olivieryk> cool :)
[17:58:27] <Colourless> [20:54] <Colourless> for exult, soon is relative to geological ages
[17:59:05] <olivieryk> so before the end of the year i guess
[17:59:45] <Colourless> you'd hope so :-)
[18:00:03] <olivieryk> i'm optimistic by nature
[18:00:45] <olivieryk> i know what's working on a long unr project s
[18:00:47] <olivieryk> is
[18:00:51] <olivieryk> long run
[18:03:26] <ShadwChsr> Has anyone here noticed a bug with the Mad Mage in serpent isle?
[18:03:51] <ShadwChsr> He never generates boydon, and when you first talk to him you get his "final" dialog options, not the ones when you first meet him
[18:04:25] <olivieryk> oh
[18:04:40] <ShadwChsr> Also, in the 1.1x branch, spawning seems broken - I always get TONS of spawns, even in cities. Try going to the rangers.. I even have multiple instances of the same person... about 50 rangers all in their building :)
[18:05:37] <ShadwChsr> I had the same dialog problem with Fedabiblio.... he kept saying "Where is the <x reagent>? Go to monk isle!" even though I had never talked to him about that
[18:05:49] <ShadwChsr> 1.0 doesn't fix it either, same bug
[18:05:55] <olivieryk> ShadwChsr>
[18:05:59] <ShadwChsr> (at least with Boydon)
[18:06:09] <olivieryk> are you an automated bug reporting system ? ;)
[18:07:42] <ShadwChsr> No... last I checked I was a programmer
[18:07:46] <ShadwChsr> but I assume you mean am I using one, and no
[18:08:26] <olivieryk> :)
[18:17:02] <ShadwChsr> gonna submit some soon, i just accidentally saved after that point.. so im kinda stuck and need to redo most of moonshade ;)
[18:17:25] <olivieryk> ok. stuck because of game bugs?
[18:18:37] <olivieryk> gotta reboot
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[18:27:02] <ShadwChsr> Yeah I can't get the serpent jawbone
[18:27:14] <ShadwChsr> you cant get it without completing the boydon experiment and boydon is never created :)
[18:34:45] <wjp> you know the drill... submit a bug report with a savegame :-)
[18:34:54] <wjp> last time I tried it worked, though
[18:35:12] <Colourless> http://www.phildowd.com/funny/techsupport.php
[18:39:00] <ShadwChsr> Weird
[18:39:08] <wjp> works for me now too
[18:39:09] <ShadwChsr> I'll submit the report once I get back there ;-)
[18:39:22] <wjp> are you sure you got the right bodyparts?
[18:39:22] <ShadwChsr> Really? Thats strange ;(
[18:39:32] <ShadwChsr> Yeah, a head, two arms, two legs, the egg
[18:39:34] <wjp> and did the machine 'spark' with every part you put in it?
[18:39:38] <ShadwChsr> yep
[18:39:45] <Colourless> torso is missing
[18:39:47] <wjp> you didn't accidentally use some of the twitching 'severed limbs'?
[18:39:50] <ShadwChsr> Heck I even tried hackmover to make sure i didnt hut one behind
[18:39:51] <ShadwChsr> put
[18:39:53] <ShadwChsr> yeah torso too
[18:40:53] <ShadwChsr> Hmmmm :(
[18:40:58] <wjp> you should have a "forearm", "detached arm", 2x "torn leg", "bloody torso", "Boydon's Head"
[18:41:08] <ShadwChsr> The mad mage still gives me dialog options as though he has given me the jawbone though
[18:41:15] <ShadwChsr> he says "The experiment has been a success!" or somesuch
[18:41:16] <wjp> and a "fiery egg"
[18:41:32] <Colourless> what veresion of si are you using?
[18:41:47] <ShadwChsr> I tried 1.0.0 and the latest 1.1 windows binary on the download page
[18:42:23] <wjp> I used a savegame from quite a while back, though, so that may have bypassed any wrong conversation problems
[18:43:10] <ShadwChsr> just a sec lemme load this in windowed mode
[18:44:54] <wjp> Colourless: a concrete-filled PC? :-)
[18:45:02] <ShadwChsr> Oookay this is even weirder
[18:45:12] <ShadwChsr> i talked to the mad mage and he said "thine experiments have been a success!"
[18:45:26] <ShadwChsr> then i double clicked on him again, and he said "Hurry! complete the experiment!"
[18:46:02] <ShadwChsr> trouble is my save game is after a few bodyparts are in so it will be tricky to debug hehe
[18:46:17] <Colourless> works here
[18:49:08] <Colourless> ShadwChsr: exactly what version of serpent isle are you using?
[18:49:39] <Colourless> with or without silver seed
[18:50:14] <ShadwChsr> 1.00, right now
[18:50:22] <ShadwChsr> but I only tried 1.00 after i had the problem
[18:50:33] <Colourless> i don't care about what version of exult
[18:50:53] <ShadwChsr> oh sorry
[18:50:55] <ShadwChsr> silver seed
[18:51:41] <ShadwChsr> I'm not sure how to tell what the actual serpent isle version number is, but I never saw the heirophant's ghost in the bomb factory so i assume its patched
[18:52:00] <Colourless> exult does that with the h ghost
[18:52:12] <ShadwChsr> ahhh cool :)
[18:52:58] <ShadwChsr> I haven't done the silverseed quest yet, however
[18:53:01] <Colourless> there are 3 version of si. normal, with silver seed and the spanish version
[18:53:13] <ShadwChsr> this is english silver seed
[18:53:44] <Colourless> that much is a given as silver seed is only in english
[18:54:16] <Colourless> ('cept for Artaxerxes french translation)
[18:55:29] <ShadwChsr> Woah this is weird
[18:55:39] <Colourless> wjp: with the concrete-filled pc did you note that someone actually did attempt to take it
[18:55:43] <ShadwChsr> I just reopened it and it barely works.. i can see it fade frame by frame
[18:55:57] <wjp> Colourless: yeah :-)
[18:56:10] <wjp> got as far as a block away :-)
[18:56:31] <Colourless> some thief... doesn't even know how much a computer should weigh
[18:56:41] <ShadwChsr> Even weirder, the game worked fine when I closed paint shop pro.. heh
[18:57:41] <Colourless> lets see, computer weighs 50 kg... normal? hell no :-)
[18:57:53] <wjp> it must be a really expensive one! ;-)
[18:58:28] <Colourless> :-)
[19:02:18] <ShadwChsr> I have a save game with two "Enserto the ranger"'s at the same time, should I submit a bug report or is it a bug with the original game? cant remember hehe :)
[19:02:44] <Colourless> your game sounds broken
[19:02:55] <Colourless> submit a bug report with a savegame
[19:03:13] <Colourless> so one of us can analyze it
[19:03:16] <ShadwChsr> I also have another question, not really a bug though
[19:03:40] <ShadwChsr> I copied my flx files and then used exult studio to copy a portrait over the one of the avatar that im using (both avatar portraits, was in two spots)
[19:03:48] <ShadwChsr> yet, even after restarting the game, he still had his old portraid
[19:03:51] <ShadwChsr> portrait
[19:03:54] <ShadwChsr> is it cached somewhere?
[19:04:17] <Colourless> no.
[19:04:17] <ShadwChsr> i was playing around and turned the avatar into the dragon from silver seed, and i wanted to copy the dragon portrait over ;)
[19:05:00] <Colourless> exult should be reading the modified faces patch/faces.vga
[19:05:28] <ShadwChsr> I told it to use the "serpent" directory, not a seperate patch directory
[19:06:35] <Colourless> by who?
[19:06:59] <ShadwChsr> I edited the exult.cfg file and set the editor game to be "serpentisle"
[19:08:24] <Colourless> argh... i just looked at the contents of shapeid.cc ... there are functions for no less than 3 classes in there
[19:08:48] <Colourless> ShapeID (which you'd expect), ShapeManager and Game_singletons
[19:08:56] <ShadwChsr> ahhhhh maybe its saving to Data\estudio\new
[19:09:07] <Colourless> i am so glad pentagram is doing one file, one class
[19:09:35] <ShadwChsr> :)
[19:10:08] <ShadwChsr> LOL, well that wasnt the right faces file... I got a happy face ;)
[19:10:35] <ShadwChsr> ahhh it went in the serpent\patch directory :)
[19:11:19] <ShadwChsr> If I change the player's shape using F2, it doesnt save though :P ah well
[19:11:33] <Colourless> is your patch directory properly set in your config file?
[19:11:43] <Colourless> you can't change the players shape
[19:12:20] <ShadwChsr> Permanently, or at all?
[19:13:00] <Colourless> permanently
[19:13:04] <Colourless> you can use polymorph
[19:13:16] <Colourless> but the game will like to change your shape :-)
[19:13:42] <Colourless> and you'll get turned back into the avatar
[19:14:31] <ShadwChsr> Hahahaha there we go, polymorph worked (and saved) ;)
[19:14:50] <ShadwChsr> Too funny
[19:25:04] <Colourless> i'm off
[19:25:05] <Colourless> cya
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[20:01:16] <ShadwChsr> Anyone here have any strong opinions against std::list.sort()? :-)
[20:07:35] <wjp> sorting a linked list?
[20:08:35] <wjp> random access is slow, so I would guess sorting is slow too
[20:13:12] <olivieryk> what algo is it using
[20:13:13] <olivieryk> ?
[20:13:33] <olivieryk> if qsort that's fine (if not recusrive)
[20:14:11] <wjp> hm, yes, I guess quicksort can be done fairly fast in a list
[20:15:02] <olivieryk> yes but the typical implementation of qsort is recursive which sux
[20:15:12] <olivieryk> i hope the stl one is not recursive
[20:15:41] <wjp> any reasoning behind the "suxing"?
[20:16:11] <olivieryk> why does recursion sux? because it kills your stack
[20:17:49] <wjp> that's an awfully simplified statement
[20:18:13] <olivieryk> oh sorry i shocked you lol
[20:19:13] <olivieryk> it's very easy to implement qsort without recursion, therefore making it independent of the size of the list to sort, that's why the recursive algo sux, and that's a good enough reason
[20:19:56] <wjp> if that's the case, why are you half-expecting stl's quicksort to be recursive?
[20:20:44] <olivieryk> all the qsort algos I have seen are recursive, i did a non recusrive opne myself because i couldn't find one
[20:20:45] <wjp> (I don't know if the STL specifies which algo to use for sorting in an implementation, btw)
[20:21:25] <olivieryk> that might be implementation specific in the case of the stl indeed
[20:26:13] <olivieryk> got to go
[20:26:16] <olivieryk> good night
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[20:33:43] <ShadwChsr> Sorry, back :)
[20:34:14] <ShadwChsr> the list.sort() function is optimized for sorting lists as opposed to the "sort" template in STL which is used for vectors, etc
[20:34:32] <ShadwChsr> thats why there are two implementations of sort in STL
[20:34:37] <ShadwChsr> one for lists and one for everything else
[20:35:07] <ShadwChsr> I couldnt find any info on which algorithm it's using, but some random people on websites said its even faster than quicksort
[20:36:28] <ShadwChsr> Sorts *this according to operator<. The sort is stable, that is, the relative order of equivalent elements is preserved. All iterators remain valid and continue to point to the same elements.  The number of comparisons is approximately N log N, where N is the list's size.
[20:36:33] <ShadwChsr> (from SGI's stl docs)
[20:41:42] <wjp> "faster than quicksort" how? :-)
[20:42:06] <wjp> empirically? asymptotically?
[20:42:13] <ShadwChsr> I have no idea, lol
[20:42:19] <ShadwChsr> probably some random geek who never even tested it ;)
[20:49:29] <ShadwChsr> This site says "STL's implementation of quicksort", so I'm going to assume thats what it is ;P
[20:51:06] <ShadwChsr> Especially since quicksort's average performance is N log N comparasons :)
[20:51:56] <ShadwChsr> You said exult & pentagram uses trees... are the objects stored as trees, or just sorted that way?
[20:54:39] <wjp> I think each object keeps a list of objects that have to be painted before it
[20:54:41] <wjp> or something :-)
[20:55:07] <wjp> I'm not really familiar with the details
[20:56:18] <ShadwChsr> AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thats right
[20:56:24] <ShadwChsr> I remember seeing that.. the dependancy tree
[20:57:08] <ShadwChsr> I was planning on just sorting everything in a huge render list, but implementing a dependancy tree later for implementing "dirty regions"
[20:57:36] <ShadwChsr> ie/ of one object moves, flag it and all of it's dependant objects as dirty, and as you run through the render list, only render the dirty ones
[20:57:49] <ShadwChsr> I just wondered if the actual render list itself was a tree :)
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[23:38:37] <[phaedra]> goose
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