#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 19 Jul 2003 (GMT)

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[09:21:25] <olivieryk> guyz
[09:21:27] <olivieryk> wake up
[09:21:59] <olivieryk> post something on the web site
[09:22:08] <olivieryk> it's dead since may
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[11:11:23] <Colourless> hi
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[11:22:34] <Darke> olivieryk: Probably wouldn't be a bad idea, though not much has really happened, from memory, except for various bug fixes.
[11:22:54] <Darke> Though I suppose that beta of 1.1 is 'supposed' to be happening soon...
[11:23:24] <Colourless> for exult, soon is relative to geological ages
[11:24:07] <Darke> Heh.
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[17:09:31] <olivieryk> Good Afternoon
[17:09:37] <olivieryk> :)
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[17:42:16] <ShadwChsr> hey :)
[17:46:53] <wjp> hi
[17:49:51] <olivieryk> yo
[17:50:26] <ShadwChsr> What do you recommend as a good sorting algorithm for the render list? :)
[17:50:44] <Colourless> one that works
[17:50:58] <Colourless> :-)
[17:51:33] <Colourless> in pentagram we use a tree
[17:51:44] <Colourless> i couldn't tell you exactly what 'type' of tree, except it's a tree
[17:52:53] <Colourless> exult uses a tree too
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[17:54:57] <ShadwChsr> :)
[17:57:05] <olivieryk> any plans for exult 1.1 guys?
[17:57:18] <Colourless> sure, there are plans
[17:57:24] <olivieryk> YEAH
[17:57:32] <olivieryk> "when it's ready"
[17:57:46] <Colourless> no, it's 'real soon now'
[17:57:52] <olivieryk> cool :)
[17:58:27] <Colourless> [20:54] <Colourless> for exult, soon is relative to geological ages
[17:59:05] <olivieryk> so before the end of the year i guess
[17:59:45] <Colourless> you'd hope so :-)
[18:00:03] <olivieryk> i'm optimistic by nature
[18:00:45] <olivieryk> i know what's working on a long unr project s
[18:00:47] <olivieryk> is
[18:00:51] <olivieryk> long run
[18:03:26] <ShadwChsr> Has anyone here noticed a bug with the Mad Mage in serpent isle?
[18:03:51] <ShadwChsr> He never generates boydon, and when you first talk to him you get his "final" dialog options, not the ones when you first meet him
[18:04:25] <olivieryk> oh
[18:04:40] <ShadwChsr> Also, in the 1.1x branch, spawning seems broken - I always get TONS of spawns, even in cities. Try going to the rangers.. I even have multiple instances of the same person... about 50 rangers all in their building :)
[18:05:37] <ShadwChsr> I had the same dialog problem with Fedabiblio.... he kept saying "Where is the <x reagent>? Go to monk isle!" even though I had never talked to him about that
[18:05:49] <ShadwChsr> 1.0 doesn't fix it either, same bug
[18:05:55] <olivieryk> ShadwChsr>
[18:05:59] <ShadwChsr> (at least with Boydon)
[18:06:09] <olivieryk> are you an automated bug reporting system ? ;)
[18:07:42] <ShadwChsr> No... last I checked I was a programmer
[18:07:46] <ShadwChsr> but I assume you mean am I using one, and no
[18:08:26] <olivieryk> :)
[18:17:02] <ShadwChsr> gonna submit some soon, i just accidentally saved after that point.. so im kinda stuck and need to redo most of moonshade ;)
[18:17:25] <olivieryk> ok. stuck because of game bugs?
[18:18:37] <olivieryk> gotta reboot
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[18:27:02] <ShadwChsr> Yeah I can't get the serpent jawbone
[18:27:14] <ShadwChsr> you cant get it without completing the boydon experiment and boydon is never created :)
[18:34:45] <wjp> you know the drill... submit a bug report with a savegame :-)
[18:34:54] <wjp> last time I tried it worked, though
[18:35:12] <Colourless> http://www.phildowd.com/funny/techsupport.php
[18:39:00] <ShadwChsr> Weird
[18:39:08] <wjp> works for me now too
[18:39:09] <ShadwChsr> I'll submit the report once I get back there ;-)
[18:39:22] <wjp> are you sure you got the right bodyparts?
[18:39:22] <ShadwChsr> Really? Thats strange ;(
[18:39:32] <ShadwChsr> Yeah, a head, two arms, two legs, the egg
[18:39:34] <wjp> and did the machine 'spark' with every part you put in it?
[18:39:38] <ShadwChsr> yep
[18:39:45] <Colourless> torso is missing
[18:39:47] <wjp> you didn't accidentally use some of the twitching 'severed limbs'?
[18:39:50] <ShadwChsr> Heck I even tried hackmover to make sure i didnt hut one behind
[18:39:51] <ShadwChsr> put
[18:39:53] <ShadwChsr> yeah torso too
[18:40:53] <ShadwChsr> Hmmmm :(
[18:40:58] <wjp> you should have a "forearm", "detached arm", 2x "torn leg", "bloody torso", "Boydon's Head"
[18:41:08] <ShadwChsr> The mad mage still gives me dialog options as though he has given me the jawbone though
[18:41:15] <ShadwChsr> he says "The experiment has been a success!" or somesuch
[18:41:16] <wjp> and a "fiery egg"
[18:41:32] <Colourless> what veresion of si are you using?
[18:41:47] <ShadwChsr> I tried 1.0.0 and the latest 1.1 windows binary on the download page
[18:42:23] <wjp> I used a savegame from quite a while back, though, so that may have bypassed any wrong conversation problems
[18:43:10] <ShadwChsr> just a sec lemme load this in windowed mode
[18:44:54] <wjp> Colourless: a concrete-filled PC? :-)
[18:45:02] <ShadwChsr> Oookay this is even weirder
[18:45:12] <ShadwChsr> i talked to the mad mage and he said "thine experiments have been a success!"
[18:45:26] <ShadwChsr> then i double clicked on him again, and he said "Hurry! complete the experiment!"
[18:46:02] <ShadwChsr> trouble is my save game is after a few bodyparts are in so it will be tricky to debug hehe
[18:46:17] <Colourless> works here
[18:49:08] <Colourless> ShadwChsr: exactly what version of serpent isle are you using?
[18:49:39] <Colourless> with or without silver seed
[18:50:14] <ShadwChsr> 1.00, right now
[18:50:22] <ShadwChsr> but I only tried 1.00 after i had the problem
[18:50:33] <Colourless> i don't care about what version of exult
[18:50:53] <ShadwChsr> oh sorry
[18:50:55] <ShadwChsr> silver seed
[18:51:41] <ShadwChsr> I'm not sure how to tell what the actual serpent isle version number is, but I never saw the heirophant's ghost in the bomb factory so i assume its patched
[18:52:00] <Colourless> exult does that with the h ghost
[18:52:12] <ShadwChsr> ahhh cool :)
[18:52:58] <ShadwChsr> I haven't done the silverseed quest yet, however
[18:53:01] <Colourless> there are 3 version of si. normal, with silver seed and the spanish version
[18:53:13] <ShadwChsr> this is english silver seed
[18:53:44] <Colourless> that much is a given as silver seed is only in english
[18:54:16] <Colourless> ('cept for Artaxerxes french translation)
[18:55:29] <ShadwChsr> Woah this is weird
[18:55:39] <Colourless> wjp: with the concrete-filled pc did you note that someone actually did attempt to take it
[18:55:43] <ShadwChsr> I just reopened it and it barely works.. i can see it fade frame by frame
[18:55:57] <wjp> Colourless: yeah :-)
[18:56:10] <wjp> got as far as a block away :-)
[18:56:31] <Colourless> some thief... doesn't even know how much a computer should weigh
[18:56:41] <ShadwChsr> Even weirder, the game worked fine when I closed paint shop pro.. heh
[18:57:41] <Colourless> lets see, computer weighs 50 kg... normal? hell no :-)
[18:57:53] <wjp> it must be a really expensive one! ;-)
[18:58:28] <Colourless> :-)
[19:02:18] <ShadwChsr> I have a save game with two "Enserto the ranger"'s at the same time, should I submit a bug report or is it a bug with the original game? cant remember hehe :)
[19:02:44] <Colourless> your game sounds broken
[19:02:55] <Colourless> submit a bug report with a savegame
[19:03:13] <Colourless> so one of us can analyze it
[19:03:16] <ShadwChsr> I also have another question, not really a bug though
[19:03:40] <ShadwChsr> I copied my flx files and then used exult studio to copy a portrait over the one of the avatar that im using (both avatar portraits, was in two spots)
[19:03:48] <ShadwChsr> yet, even after restarting the game, he still had his old portraid
[19:03:51] <ShadwChsr> portrait
[19:03:54] <ShadwChsr> is it cached somewhere?
[19:04:17] <Colourless> no.
[19:04:17] <ShadwChsr> i was playing around and turned the avatar into the dragon from silver seed, and i wanted to copy the dragon portrait over ;)
[19:05:00] <Colourless> exult should be reading the modified faces patch/faces.vga
[19:05:28] <ShadwChsr> I told it to use the "serpent" directory, not a seperate patch directory
[19:06:35] <Colourless> by who?
[19:06:59] <ShadwChsr> I edited the exult.cfg file and set the editor game to be "serpentisle"
[19:08:24] <Colourless> argh... i just looked at the contents of shapeid.cc ... there are functions for no less than 3 classes in there
[19:08:48] <Colourless> ShapeID (which you'd expect), ShapeManager and Game_singletons
[19:08:56] <ShadwChsr> ahhhhh maybe its saving to Data\estudio\new
[19:09:07] <Colourless> i am so glad pentagram is doing one file, one class
[19:09:35] <ShadwChsr> :)
[19:10:08] <ShadwChsr> LOL, well that wasnt the right faces file... I got a happy face ;)
[19:10:35] <ShadwChsr> ahhh it went in the serpent\patch directory :)
[19:11:19] <ShadwChsr> If I change the player's shape using F2, it doesnt save though :P ah well
[19:11:33] <Colourless> is your patch directory properly set in your config file?
[19:11:43] <Colourless> you can't change the players shape
[19:12:20] <ShadwChsr> Permanently, or at all?
[19:13:00] <Colourless> permanently
[19:13:04] <Colourless> you can use polymorph
[19:13:16] <Colourless> but the game will like to change your shape :-)
[19:13:42] <Colourless> and you'll get turned back into the avatar
[19:14:31] <ShadwChsr> Hahahaha there we go, polymorph worked (and saved) ;)
[19:14:50] <ShadwChsr> Too funny
[19:25:04] <Colourless> i'm off
[19:25:05] <Colourless> cya
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[20:01:16] <ShadwChsr> Anyone here have any strong opinions against std::list.sort()? :-)
[20:07:35] <wjp> sorting a linked list?
[20:08:35] <wjp> random access is slow, so I would guess sorting is slow too
[20:13:12] <olivieryk> what algo is it using
[20:13:13] <olivieryk> ?
[20:13:33] <olivieryk> if qsort that's fine (if not recusrive)
[20:14:11] <wjp> hm, yes, I guess quicksort can be done fairly fast in a list
[20:15:02] <olivieryk> yes but the typical implementation of qsort is recursive which sux
[20:15:12] <olivieryk> i hope the stl one is not recursive
[20:15:41] <wjp> any reasoning behind the "suxing"?
[20:16:11] <olivieryk> why does recursion sux? because it kills your stack
[20:17:49] <wjp> that's an awfully simplified statement
[20:18:13] <olivieryk> oh sorry i shocked you lol
[20:19:13] <olivieryk> it's very easy to implement qsort without recursion, therefore making it independent of the size of the list to sort, that's why the recursive algo sux, and that's a good enough reason
[20:19:56] <wjp> if that's the case, why are you half-expecting stl's quicksort to be recursive?
[20:20:44] <olivieryk> all the qsort algos I have seen are recursive, i did a non recusrive opne myself because i couldn't find one
[20:20:45] <wjp> (I don't know if the STL specifies which algo to use for sorting in an implementation, btw)
[20:21:25] <olivieryk> that might be implementation specific in the case of the stl indeed
[20:26:13] <olivieryk> got to go
[20:26:16] <olivieryk> good night
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[20:33:43] <ShadwChsr> Sorry, back :)
[20:34:14] <ShadwChsr> the list.sort() function is optimized for sorting lists as opposed to the "sort" template in STL which is used for vectors, etc
[20:34:32] <ShadwChsr> thats why there are two implementations of sort in STL
[20:34:37] <ShadwChsr> one for lists and one for everything else
[20:35:07] <ShadwChsr> I couldnt find any info on which algorithm it's using, but some random people on websites said its even faster than quicksort
[20:36:28] <ShadwChsr> Sorts *this according to operator<. The sort is stable, that is, the relative order of equivalent elements is preserved. All iterators remain valid and continue to point to the same elements. [6] The number of comparisons is approximately N log N, where N is the list's size.
[20:36:33] <ShadwChsr> (from SGI's stl docs)
[20:41:42] <wjp> "faster than quicksort" how? :-)
[20:42:06] <wjp> empirically? asymptotically?
[20:42:13] <ShadwChsr> I have no idea, lol
[20:42:19] <ShadwChsr> probably some random geek who never even tested it ;)
[20:49:29] <ShadwChsr> This site says "STL's implementation of quicksort", so I'm going to assume thats what it is ;P
[20:51:06] <ShadwChsr> Especially since quicksort's average performance is N log N comparasons :)
[20:51:56] <ShadwChsr> You said exult & pentagram uses trees... are the objects stored as trees, or just sorted that way?
[20:54:39] <wjp> I think each object keeps a list of objects that have to be painted before it
[20:54:41] <wjp> or something :-)
[20:55:07] <wjp> I'm not really familiar with the details
[20:56:18] <ShadwChsr> AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thats right
[20:56:24] <ShadwChsr> I remember seeing that.. the dependancy tree
[20:57:08] <ShadwChsr> I was planning on just sorting everything in a huge render list, but implementing a dependancy tree later for implementing "dirty regions"
[20:57:36] <ShadwChsr> ie/ of one object moves, flag it and all of it's dependant objects as dirty, and as you run through the render list, only render the dirty ones
[20:57:49] <ShadwChsr> I just wondered if the actual render list itself was a tree :)
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[23:38:37] <[phaedra]> goose
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