[00:04:00] <RonC> Hmmm, I wanted to talk to some people about JPEG compression fees.
[00:04:15] <RonC> And they threw some OGG Vorbis advertisement at me :)
[00:05:50] <EsBee-Eks> hmm, they did that in #WOPN too
[00:05:56] <EsBee-Eks> since thats what their broadcast is in
[00:06:03] <EsBee-Eks> the OGG audio in exult is really nice
[00:06:11] <RonC> I agree, OGG is nice...
[00:06:32] <RonC> But, they all think it is God. It's disgusting really.
[00:06:50] <EsBee-Eks> i never heard the music in ultima in such quality until it was added to exult :)
[00:06:51] <EsBee-Eks> heh
[00:06:54] <EsBee-Eks> bbl
[00:06:58] <RonC> ok.
[00:06:59] --- EsBee-Eks is now known as sbx|afk
[00:07:06] <RonC> All alone...
[00:07:12] <RonC> Time to talk to the bot.
[00:07:15] <RonC> exultbot
[00:07:22] <RonC> exultbot: help
[00:08:10] <RonC> exultbot help
[00:08:20] <RonC> hmm, I don't like this guy :)
[00:08:39] <sbx|afk> ?help
[00:08:54] <sbx|afk> try that
[00:10:43] <RonC> ?help
[00:10:55] <RonC> ?ultima
[00:10:55] <exultbot> Ultima is an epic RPG game series created by Origin.
[00:11:06] <RonC> ?exultbot
[00:11:06] <exultbot> Exultbot is written in Perl by Willem Jan Palenstijn.
[00:14:07] <RonC> going off to read C++ book...
[00:14:20] --- RonC is now known as Ron|away
[00:31:32] --- Darke|afk is now known as Darke
[00:33:29] <Darke> Greetings all.
[00:54:56] --- Ron|away is now known as RonC
[00:54:58] <RonC> hi
[00:56:46] <RonC> I'm quite interested in C/C++ now :)
[01:00:22] <RonC> Have any reccomendations for books I should read? Or sites I should bookmark?
[01:02:45] <Darke> Hmm... A good book on the C++ std.lib is "The C++ Standard Library" by Nicolai M Josuttis. It's a reference book to the library
[01:03:21] <RonC> People have said that...
[01:03:29] <RonC> What about learning C++?
[01:05:46] <Darke> There's a couple of good websites around. I posted a few links in the forums to them a couple of months ago, IIRC.
[01:09:16] <RonC> Yeah, I just started reading "Thinking In C++." I think that should be a good start.
[01:09:35] <RonC> I figure that in a year or so, i'll be programming OpenGL.
[01:11:46] <Darke> Sounds fun. *grin* I don't think I'll ever program openGL or something like that. I'm more likely to use SDL or similar. *grin*
[01:12:46] <RonC> Take a look at Allegro :)
[01:13:16] <RonC> IMHO, that's SDL's biggest competition.
[01:17:13] <RonC> I'll probably end up using SDL or Allegro's OpenGL libraries.
[01:17:49] <RonC> And, no one in the offical Allegro chat room can give me a good anwser why it's better than SDL...
[01:18:15] <Darke> Too late. I used Allegro for years back when it was a DJGPP only program, and they were slowly porting it to windows/linux. IMO, unless it's improved dramatically, it's no competition to the simplicity of SDL. *grin*
[01:20:39] <RonC> So, then you imply SDL is simpler than Allegro?
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[01:20:55] <sbx> back
[01:20:59] <RonC> WB.
[01:20:59] <sbx> Greetings Darke
[01:21:03] <sbx> thx
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[01:22:00] <RonC> Welcome.
[01:22:03] <Darke> SDL seems to be simpler and cleaner, and unless Allergo has dramatically cleaned up the structure of things, it's likely to still be. I do know the SDL docs were much better then the Allegro ones back in those days, but as I said, I haven't looked at Allegro in years. *grin*
[01:22:05] <sbx> hi Kirben
[01:22:31] <sbx> hmm i think i said that yesterday :-)
[01:22:40] <sbx> that the api was not as complex
[01:22:58] <RonC> The only sucess story I know of Allegro is Assimilation Software...
[01:23:12] <sbx> Duke Nukem used a modifed allegro
[01:23:23] <sbx> modified
[01:23:33] <sbx> and licensed to them
[01:23:47] <RonC> Which Duke Nukem?
[01:23:52] <Kirben> Hi
[01:24:05] <sbx> Duke Nukem 3D
[01:24:40] <sbx> with the "Duke it Out in D.C." add-on
[01:25:03] <Darke> Quake also used Allegro and DJGPP too, IIRC.
[01:26:03] <RonC> Well, we'll call it a modern success story then :)
[01:26:29] * Darke remembers it being 'the' noted game produced with it when he was using it.
[01:27:07] <RonC> The "ASS" engine has lots of modern 3D OpenGL features. I don't like the lighting method though.
[01:27:15] <Darke> RonC: Then you compare it with the number of commercial games using the SDL. *grin* I do know which one's more successful.
[01:27:48] <RonC> Actually, a correction, features for modern 3D cards supporting OpenGL.
[01:28:06] <sbx> GL Extensions?
[01:28:43] <RonC> I think so. The engine is a 3 year work in progress.
[01:31:13] <RonC> Also, some amazing 3D importers.
[01:32:14] <RonC> Oh well, no more bragging about my friends engine :)
[01:32:25] <RonC> I want to make one! :)
[01:33:10] <RonC> What's this stuff with Pentagram and OpenGL, it sounds pretty exciting.
[01:34:01] <RonC> I should pay more attention to punctuation. That sentence should be...
[01:34:17] <RonC> What's this stuff with Pentagram and OpenGL? It sounds pretty exciting!
[01:34:18] <Darke> Not sure. You'll have to ask Colourless, he's the guy with all the ideas about that. *grin*
[01:34:47] <RonC> Yeah, I used to like playing around with a little avatar model from Ultima VIII.
[01:35:09] <sbx> U8 had a good engine
[01:36:16] <RonC> Another friend of mine maintained that you never know how well something is built until you look inside. But, I suppose you guys would know more than anyone.
[01:37:14] <sbx> I only know what they discuss in here, and for U7 what is in the docs directory.
[01:38:20] <RonC> Is debian any good?
[01:40:17] <RonC> NM.
[01:44:49] <sbx> i'd certanly like an apt-get for slackware :)
[01:45:49] <Darke> The U8 engine is very... umm... different. Parts of it are very, very good, and others very, very bad. It looks like two _completely_ different people designed int. *grin*
[01:46:54] <sbx> Hmm
[01:47:12] <RonC> :)
[01:47:24] <sbx> like Most of the U7 Engine + Voodoo memory manager designed by two different people? :)
[01:48:43] <RonC> I'm going to give The Gimp a try. I'm a long time Photoshop user.
[01:48:58] <Darke> Parts of it appear to be very well designed, whereas other parts of it (savegame handling anyone?) are really just braindamaged. *grin*
[01:49:27] <sbx> pentagram will use XML saves?
[01:49:56] <Darke> sbx: Nah. Voodoo was designed well, for what it was designed for. *grin* Just because it's 'broken' in most of todays OSes doesn't mean it was done badly.
[01:50:10] <Darke> sbx: No idea. *grin* We need to write an engine first.
[01:50:13] <RonC> Interesting perspective.
[01:50:27] <RonC> MacOSX uses XML...
[01:50:41] <sbx> Darke: but it did lots of strange Voodoo!
[01:55:27] <RonC> Well, the Gimp seems good...
[01:55:41] <RonC> But, it's missing alot of features photoshop has.
[01:55:41] <sbx> it is
[01:55:49] <sbx> such as?
[01:56:27] <RonC> For instance, in photoshop, there are several ways to antialias text, and it's dynamic, you can edit it after you place it.
[01:56:41] <RonC> But, the Gimp does have animation, which is a nice plus.
[01:56:54] <sbx> it has dynamic text
[01:57:17] <RonC> Well, it slipped me.
[01:58:44] <sbx> what version do you have?
[01:59:38] <RonC> 1.2
[01:59:51] <RonC> It's built in here.
[02:00:16] <sbx> not 1.2.something?
[02:00:49] <RonC> 1.2.3
[02:00:52] <RonC> :)
[02:00:59] <RonC> that's a special version number.
[02:01:26] <sbx> 1.2.1 has dynamic text
[02:10:13] <RonC> ee
[02:10:18] <RonC> it's in some special layer
[02:10:51] <sbx> how else can you do it?
[02:15:05] <RonC> Well, it deserves further study.
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[03:48:51] <sbx> wb
[03:49:03] <Darke> Thanks. *bow*
[03:53:44] * sbx bows.
[04:01:06] <RonC> goodnight
[04:01:16] <-- RonC has left IRC ()
[04:01:51] <sbx> Did I mention, we need more lurkers?
[04:03:39] <Darke> Yes. Yesterday I believe. *grin*
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[05:59:43] <SB-X> whats everyone doing?
[06:02:34] <Darke> Hitting slashdot for the day, RPing with a friend on another channel, and talking with yet another friend on yet another channel. *grin* All intermittently. As well as idling here of course.
[06:04:10] <SB-X> RP? can i see?
[06:05:52] <Darke> Nah, it's not worth it. It's nothing interesting, and on another server. *grin*
[06:06:50] * Darke needs to disappear now for a while anyway. *grin*
[06:06:54] --- Darke is now known as Darke|afk
[06:29:32] --- Darke|afk is now known as Darke
[06:29:41] <SB-X> wb!
[06:29:42] * Darke pawwaves. Back!
[06:30:47] * SB-X resumes "Ultima VII: The Black Gate".
[06:31:02] * Darke oooohs, and watches.
[06:31:42] <SB-X> well
[06:31:43] <SB-X> im in vesper
[06:32:50] <SB-X> Guardian: "Go inside. Tell them your The Avatar."
[06:33:55] <Darke> "Hi! I'm that Avatar dude, you know me, right?"
[06:34:33] <SB-X> i told them i was 'milord'
[06:36:56] <SB-X> bah
[06:36:56] <SB-X> im going to skip this town
[06:41:03] <SB-X> aah man that is an evil voice
[06:41:18] <SB-X> evil in a good way
[06:41:18] <SB-X> good and funny
[06:41:59] * Darke snickers.
[06:46:24] <SB-X> its nice how the provisioner shops just leave there powder kegs lying around
[06:46:46] <SB-X> but it is SO tempting to light a row of them when the shop owner walks by
[06:47:39] <Darke> *grin* So who's more evil, The Guardian or The Avatar?
[06:51:50] <SB-X> he made me do it
[06:52:29] <SB-X> heh, a book: "To be, or not To be - by Wislem."
[06:53:30] <SB-X> "To be the words comprising the complete gargish primer..." :-)
[06:53:30] * Darke blinkblinks.
[06:53:51] * Darke makes a note that some of the puns in this game are evil. *grin*
[06:55:54] <SB-X> Out-n-Inn yes *evilgrin*
[06:56:04] <SB-X> do you recall any others off-paw?
[07:02:08] <Darke> Hmm... no, nothing that I can immediately think of. *grin* Half the books titles, or the books themselves are punny though
[07:04:32] <SB-X> yep
[07:04:32] <SB-X> a very nice game if you like puns
[07:05:11] <SB-X> aah finally, the golden ankh... and it's loaded with food and provisions!
[07:06:26] <SB-X> oh man
[07:06:42] <SB-X> first or second thing i look into fixing - make seats easier to sit in
[07:07:09] * Darke snickers.
[07:23:51] <SB-X> eh
[07:24:01] <SB-X> Darke: do you remember what the pick can be used on?
[07:24:06] <SB-X> it doesnt work on chunks of iron or lead
[07:24:41] <SB-X> and these miners seem to be swinging their picks in random directions :-)
[07:24:42] <Darke> Umm... no actually. I don't think it can be used on anything.
[07:25:39] <SB-X> it opens crosshairs
[07:25:49] <SB-X> and after clicking a target someone says "It seems that a pick is not needed for that."
[07:26:44] <Darke> Hmm... might want to hit the usecode then. I can't remember what it's used for, I don't think I ever tried useing it.
[07:46:03] <Kirben> Anyone else received odd bounce messages from sourceforge recently for no reason ?
[07:48:46] <Darke> Not at all.
[07:49:17] * Darke considers he hasn't really sent much to sf.net MLs recently though.
[07:54:30] <SB-X> What Circle is Unlock in?
[07:58:05] <SB-X> eh, somehow sentri is on the roof of the Gilded Lizard
[08:00:07] <Darke> 5th I think.
[08:00:49] <Darke> 4th actually.
[08:01:16] <SB-X> thx
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[08:14:09] <SB-X> wow
[08:14:13] <SB-X> the ship's hold is huge
[08:15:57] <Darke> What? You've dumped a dozen barrels in there already and it's still not full? *grin*
[08:16:26] <SB-X> well ... three
[08:16:45] <SB-X> and a crate
[08:16:45] <SB-X> and chest, and a backpack
[08:17:03] <SB-X> miscellaneous goods that no decent avatar can be without
[08:28:25] <SB-X> SB-X: "picked eggs" Mack: "Excellent! Dost thou have some eggs for me?" SB-X: "No" Mack: "No? What has thou been doing with my chickens? Art thou some kind of fowl pervert?
[08:28:27] <SB-X> "
[08:33:28] * Darke snorks. Sad. *grin*
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[08:57:14] * SB-X stops playing for now.
[09:31:50] <SB-X> good night
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[11:59:45] <Colourless> hi
[11:59:47] <Colourless> to who :-)
[12:01:01] <Darke|afk> The bot. Because I'm not here. Really! *grin*
[12:11:25] <Colourless> didn't think so
[12:19:26] <Colourless> with no one here, i guess i can just do whatever I want
[12:24:31] <Colourless> but then again, what would be the point :-)
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[13:09:14] <wjp> hi
[13:09:22] <Colourless> hi
[13:12:32] <wjp> hm, "OpenGL working a bit"?
[13:12:53] <Colourless> depends on your definition of 'a bit'
[13:13:17] <wjp> #define bit compiles and runs
[13:18:23] <wjp> hm, HAVE_OPENGL, I guess?
[13:18:32] <Colourless> yeah HAVE_OPENGL
[13:18:42] <Colourless> can't say it exactly works for me though :-)
[13:18:53] <Colourless> you'll have to ask Jeff what to do with it
[13:26:55] * wjp looks at pages of undefined references
[13:27:38] <wjp> I wonder if my copy of SDL has OpenGL support
[13:29:42] <Colourless> you need to link to an opengl library
[13:29:50] <wjp> -lGL?
[13:30:09] <Colourless> -Lopengl i would have thought
[13:30:21] <wjp> -L = library path
[13:30:32] <Colourless> ah :-)
[13:30:39] <Colourless> yes, should be GL
[13:30:41] <wjp> Error opening file static/palettes.flx
[13:31:46] <wjp> (when I set scaling to opengl in the main menu)
[13:31:54] <wjp> when I do it in the video options menu it segfaults
[13:33:12] <wjp> hm, it tries to open static/palettes.flx before even picking a game... very bad
[13:33:18] <Colourless> don't look at me
[13:33:29] * wjp is looking at Jeff ;-)
[13:33:50] * Colourless can't see Jeff
[13:34:21] <Colourless> ah that's right, i'm invisible aren't i, just because I think you are looking at me doesn't mean you are... you could be looking right through me :-)
[13:35:40] <wjp> :-)
[13:36:11] <wjp> hm, this looks... interesting :-)
[13:36:19] * wjp is running exult from the bg directory now
[13:36:53] <wjp> lots of flickering, but it does seem to work
[13:37:25] <wjp> translucency isn't in, and object overlapping chunk edges are being cut off, but it's working :-)
[13:38:27] <wjp> and it seems to stop updating the screen from time to time
[13:38:46] <Colourless> doesn't work at all for me
[13:39:03] <Colourless> but i need to update me code i think
[13:39:35] <Colourless> i'm pretty sure i've still got the broken version from yesterday that didn't have terrain rendering
[13:39:47] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exultgl.png
[13:41:00] <Colourless> OpenGL Scaling with 2x ?
[13:41:10] <wjp> yeah
[13:42:57] <Colourless> works now :-)
[13:43:18] <Colourless> not greatly well (menu colours are all wrong)
[13:43:31] <wjp> yeah
[13:43:43] <wjp> they look inverted
[13:43:55] <wjp> orange instead of blue...
[13:44:11] <wjp> I like the way the version number in the bottom right corner looks
[13:44:14] <Colourless> my text button's dont work
[13:44:36] <Colourless> jeff hasn't enabled area filling yet :-)
[13:45:06] <Colourless> yeah the number looks kind of nice
[13:45:15] <Colourless> nice gradient
[13:45:22] * wjp nods
[13:46:19] <Colourless> the speed is at that 'it runs faster with software bilinear filtering' level :-)
[13:46:26] <Colourless> s/that/the/
[13:46:51] <wjp> hm, works quite fast for me
[13:47:07] <Colourless> just building a release build
[13:47:15] <wjp> 0-10% CPU usage while walking around
[13:47:42] <wjp> moving the mouse around a lot increases it to about 50%
[13:47:44] <Colourless> seems that exult is suffering the same problem with 'lines' between shapes that pentagram was getting
[13:47:52] <wjp> yeah
[13:48:04] <wjp> rounding problem?
[13:48:08] <Colourless> doesn't really surprise me.
[13:48:14] <Colourless> no
[13:49:13] <Colourless> i actually don't really know what's causing it in exult
[13:49:31] <Colourless> some of the lines are being caused by the same problem as in pentagram
[13:50:21] <Colourless> it's where you draw a shape with repeating texturing enabled, but the shape itself doesn't repeat with itself, it repeats with anther shape. the join between the 2 shapes then become visible
[13:50:37] <Colourless> exult just seems to be getting a lot of line everywhere
[13:52:35] <wjp> hm, I'm afraid I don't quite get it :/
[13:52:43] * wjp has zero experience with texturing
[13:53:07] <Colourless> exult opengl has lots of 'odd' problems :-)
[13:53:18] <Colourless> could be why I didn't want to attempt it :-)
[13:54:26] <wjp> btw, if repeating texturing causes problems, why not disable it?
[13:54:40] <wjp> or would that cause even worse edges?
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[13:59:03] <Colourless> note to self, don't try running OpenGL programs using SDL in fullscreen
[14:03:22] <wjp> instant crash when going fullscreen or did it run for a while and then crash?
[14:03:43] <Colourless> crashes on exit
[14:03:58] <Colourless> it's a problem i already knew about (happens with pentagram too) but I forgot about it :-)
[14:04:16] <wjp> oops :-)
[14:04:25] <Colourless> it's a driver problem... and it's never going to get fixed :-)
[14:04:48] <Colourless> might also be a sdl problem too, as seems to be related to sdl opengl somehow
[14:05:18] <Colourless> it might be switching screen modes before uninitalizing opengl
[16:10:04] * wjp thinks it's time for website update
[16:10:44] <Colourless> i would strongly resist on mentioning opengl :-)
[16:11:08] <wjp> I'm only mentioning devel-1-00 things anyway
[16:11:32] <Colourless> good :-)
[16:13:39] <wjp> hm, did all changes to devel-1-00 go into the ChangeLog?
[16:13:53] <wjp> it seems a bit small
[16:14:32] <Colourless> no clue
[16:14:42] <Colourless> if jeff did the fix, it might not have gone into changelog
[16:15:18] <wjp> ah well, I'll improvise a bit ;-)
[16:17:57] <wjp> Colourless: did I ever show you the screenshot on the phoenix island?
[16:18:07] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/cave.png I think
[16:21:17] <Colourless> yeah you did
[16:26:46] <wjp> there, that should do it.
[16:26:51] <wjp> (webpage, I mean)
[16:27:10] <wjp> any idea what's wrong there? I can't quite remember if that happened in the original too
[16:27:28] <wjp> it might just be rushed design of that island
[16:27:39] <wjp> since it was the only place where I saw it
[16:28:08] <Colourless> AFAIK happens in the original too :-)
[16:28:25] <Colourless> you do realise it's more useful if your screenshot was centered on the avatar :-)
[16:28:44] <Colourless> there are numerous places where things like that happen, but you never see them because they are offscreen
[16:28:47] * wjp looks at screenshot.. hmm.. weird
[16:28:57] <wjp> I wonder why it isn't centered
[16:46:43] <Colourless> is it not true that you can find everything on ebay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1749682557 (Manual included)
[16:48:30] <wjp> oooh.. nice... :-)
[16:49:22] <Colourless> i'd imagine that price is probably quite a bargin, but it's probably at least 10 years old im guessing
[16:49:44] <wjp> hm, $600, sounds quite cheap, yes
[16:50:15] <wjp> "oligo 1000"? didn't 'oligo' mean 'few' or something? (greek)
[16:50:45] <Colourless> yeah
[16:51:24] <Colourless> few/small is close to it's meaning
[16:58:38] <Colourless> something intriguing about that picture of the machine is it has vials mark ACGT and X. ACGT and fairly obvious, but what is X for
[16:59:00] <wjp> good question :-)
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[18:18:18] <RonC> hi
[18:18:42] <Colourless> hi
[18:18:42] <RonC> Anyone know anything about OpenGL in here? :)
[18:18:55] <Colourless> perhaps. depends on the question :-)
[18:19:14] <RonC> Well, i'm just looking for a good book on the subject...
[18:20:31] <Colourless> well, then I can't really help you. i generally don't buy dead trees :-)
[18:20:46] <RonC> Ok... :)
[18:21:02] <Colourless> if you actually asked a question about opengl itself, i might have been about to help you :-)
[18:21:32] <RonC> Well, you did buy a formated piece of rock ore, and synthetic plastic :)
[18:21:35] <Colourless> my knowledge of opengl isn't that great though. i know more about d3d and even glide than opengl
[18:21:50] <RonC> Eee! Glide!
[18:21:58] <Colourless> you can get natural plastic? :-)
[18:22:01] <Colourless> and no, rubber doesn't count :-)
[18:22:09] <RonC> No :)
[18:22:31] <RonC> Don't throw your computer away, you'll create more dead trees! :)
[18:22:50] <RonC> It's 1:23 here...
[18:22:52] <Colourless> glide's not that bad, other than it's hardware vendor dependant.
[18:22:58] <Colourless> it's 3:53 here
[18:23:27] <RonC> It's either you live on the moon, or your clocks wrong :)
[18:23:47] <RonC> Or my clocks wrong...
[18:23:49] <Colourless> when using glide you generally need to know more about how the 3d graphics works than if you used opengl than d3d simply because it's a lower level api.
[18:24:01] <Colourless> umm, no, everything seems in order
[18:24:12] <Colourless> except for me myself, but we don't talk about such things
[18:25:01] <RonC> d3d! boo.
[18:25:49] <RonC> Ok, well, any other books I should read besides: C++ The Standard Library? :)
[18:25:54] <Colourless> just because it's windows only and uses com doesn't mean it's "that" bad.... of course I'm only talking about d3d8 onwards :-)
[18:26:35] <RonC> Wine "kind" of emulates it... so technically it isn't windows only :)
[18:27:09] <Colourless> i can't really give you any advise on what books to get
[18:28:11] <RonC> Well, I suppose I should just go to the store of "dead trees" then.
[18:28:29] <RonC> I've burned enough coal into our air today :)
[18:28:58] <RonC> Live long and prosper.
[18:29:22] <RonC> (Translation: Goodbye)
[18:29:46] <-- RonC has left IRC ()
[18:29:54] <Colourless> cya then... oh well
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[18:32:10] <RonC> Hi, decided to come back.
[18:32:21] <Colourless> :-)
[18:32:30] <RonC> I think i'm going to install exult for linux.
[18:32:56] <Colourless> that is one thing that you should never ask me about. and i think you could guess why
[18:33:17] <RonC> Yeah, i'm very interested in this Pentagram thing.
[18:33:41] <Colourless> not too much to say about pentagram at the moment.
[18:33:49] <Colourless> it's very much in design stage
[18:34:02] <RonC> It's still just a map viewer, right?
[18:34:11] <Colourless> but there are a few tools we've made
[18:34:35] <RonC> Any documentation?
[18:34:56] <Colourless> well, there's the map viewer, shape viewer, glob viewer, micro unfinished usecode interpreter, usecode diassembler, sound decompressor
[18:35:01] <Colourless> there are some docs
[18:35:22] <RonC> Sounds like it's coming along pretty good!
[18:35:31] <Colourless> just a sec and i'll give you url for the docs
[18:35:49] <Colourless> heh, it would seem like it, but we haven't written a single line of code for the actual engine itself
[18:36:38] <Colourless> this contains all of our technical docs: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/pentagram/pentagram/docs/
[18:37:32] <Colourless> but, while we haven't written any code, what we are trying to do is find out as much as possible about how things are supposed to work, so once we do start coding it, we will not have any surprises that will force us to change a substantial amount of the code
[18:37:46] <Colourless> we are also wanting to make sure that we just do things right the first time
[18:39:08] <RonC> Cough--Jeff--cough--cough. ;)
[18:39:46] <Colourless> and just what is that supposed to mean :-)
[18:40:29] <RonC> Oh, ahhh, nothing, nothing at all :)
[18:40:57] <Colourless> i see
[18:43:36] <RonC> where the heck is Exult.cfg?
[18:43:42] <RonC> :)
[18:44:00] <Colourless> um, not really the question to ask me, but i think it's /~home/.exult.cfg or something
[18:44:46] <RonC> Well, I still like the application XKill. :)
[18:45:30] <Colourless> :-)
[18:45:43] <Colourless> i can just guess what that does
[18:45:49] <RonC> Yes, that's right, thank you.
[18:46:40] <Colourless> OMG windows user helps linux user with linux problem... someone notify ./ :-)
[18:47:10] <RonC> :)
[18:47:32] * Colourless hangs head in shame
[18:47:41] <Colourless> of all the times that I could have done a typo
[18:47:53] <RonC> I'm was one of the biggest windows on the face of the planet... until last week :)
[18:48:03] <RonC> :D
[18:48:09] <Colourless> i should have just spelt it out and not try to be so much of a smartass :-)
[18:48:26] <RonC> Ah, I don
[18:48:31] <RonC> 't care.
[18:48:44] <RonC> I probably was to the people in here last night.
[18:49:24] <RonC> Ok, I like the way this is configured :)
[18:50:00] <RonC> All I have to do to get Samba going is open sudo root :) (which is not a Japaneese vegie! you windows user ;))
[18:50:35] * Colourless looks around not having a clue what RonC is talking about
[18:51:59] <RonC> :)
[18:55:05] <RonC> ok, after this, I should open Exult... and everything should work perfectly :)
[18:55:42] <RonC> But nooo! I have to go back and look for the problem -_-
[18:55:53] <Colourless> that is what should happen in theory assuming everying has been configured properly
[18:58:35] <RonC> Now I have to look in the god-forsaken FAQ that if I printed it our I could use it for toliet paper! (Of course, I would just be using "dead trees" with black spots which brings us right back to the origin of the conversation!)
[18:59:35] <RonC> Just curious, do you use photoshop?
[18:59:56] <Colourless> rarely. i don't like it's interface much
[19:00:05] <RonC> Do you use the Gimp?
[19:00:13] <Colourless> no
[19:00:24] <Colourless> i generally use psp
[19:00:45] <RonC> No one agrees with me :) I can't believe it.
[19:01:00] <RonC> I've done some stunning Photoshop images in the past...
[19:02:02] <Colourless> i'd use photoshop more, if there were just some minor interface changes... such as actually using the right mouse button :-)
[19:03:03] <Colourless> arguably it (photoshop) is too mac centric
[19:10:12] <RonC> I still think it's the best tool out there to get the job done.
[19:11:48] <RonC> Now, getting midi to work is another question.
[19:12:03] <RonC> My guess is that soundfont support on Linux is problematic at best.
[19:12:23] <Colourless> you'll probably want to use timidity for music
[19:12:26] <RonC> I probably have to use some sort of midi emulator?
[19:12:36] <RonC> Timidity?
[19:12:56] <Colourless> software midi synth
[19:13:52] <Colourless> if you are compiling from the main branch (which uses sdlmixer) timidity support is built in, but you'll need the eawpatches
[19:14:10] <Colourless> i'm not really the people to ask about that stuff though
[19:14:28] <Colourless> wjp are you there?
[19:15:19] <RonC> I just downloaded the RPM...
[19:15:43] <Colourless> of exult? .99.2 ?
[19:17:11] <RonC> .99.1
[19:17:31] <RonC> The binary...
[19:17:33] <Colourless> ah yep ok
[19:17:44] <Colourless> 0.99.2 is what we are calling our cvs :-)
[19:18:21] <Colourless> does exult say something like USE_TIMIDITY_BIN on startup in the flags bit? (should be output to stderr)
[19:18:53] <RonC> Hold on just a second... :) I'm new to linux here.
[19:19:01] <RonC> Where is stderr?
[19:19:19] <Colourless> if you run it from a console window, it should just output it to the console
[19:19:54] <wjp> hm, yes, I'm here
[19:20:02] <Colourless> help ronc ok :-)
[19:20:22] <RonC> Help! :)
[19:20:23] * wjp scrolls up, and up, and up
[19:21:05] <RonC> Hmm, you should only need to scroll up about a page...
[19:21:29] <RonC> Unless you want to start reading about dead trees and toilet paper ;)
[19:22:04] <RonC> Don't you have Vorbis support yet?
[19:23:14] <wjp> *phew*... I'm back :-)
[19:23:37] <wjp> our 'experimental' CVS branch has ogg vorbis support
[19:24:46] <RonC> Well... I don't really want to compile anything.
[19:25:14] <wjp> compiling exult should be pretty painless if you have the right packages installed
[19:25:29] <RonC> Hmm, and what would those be?
[19:25:40] <wjp> SDL, SDL-devel, SDL_mixer, SDL_mixer-devel
[19:25:50] <RonC> hmm... let me check
[19:26:00] <RonC> I did install some development stuff in mandrake...
[19:26:23] <wjp> if you want to build exult studio you'll need some more
[19:26:43] <RonC> I have lots of lib-sdl's
[19:27:30] <RonC> I think I have them all.
[19:28:15] <RonC> Grr, but none of them are installed...
[19:28:29] <RonC> I don't have the 2nd and 3rd CD's of Mandrake.
[19:28:33] <wjp> why do you want vorbis support, btw?
[19:28:46] <wjp> the timidity audio isn't really that bad :-)
[19:28:54] <RonC> I think it is :)
[19:31:04] <RonC> Ok, i've downloaded SDL, and SDL-devel...
[19:31:11] <RonC> Now on to SDL Mixer.
[19:31:44] <wjp> make sure to get version 1.2.4 of all
[19:32:28] <RonC> yep, 1.2.4
[19:32:36] <RonC> Now, simple RPM all of these...
[19:33:00] <RonC> Most of the time, I have to use --force because mandrake wants the unnecessary second and third CD's.
[19:33:43] <wjp> you really have to be careful with that
[19:36:15] <RonC> I'm not to worried. I've caused problems with the boot loader that are probably alot worse than forcing an install of SDL.
[19:36:34] <RonC> Ok, i've installed everything.
[19:37:13] <RonC> Now, download the 1.1.x snapshot?
[19:38:07] <RonC> hi
[19:38:07] <RonC> ?
[19:38:57] <Colourless> you should be able to download the 1.1.x snapshot source
[19:39:22] <RonC> Joy. It's a zip.
[19:39:28] <wjp> using cvs is better, probably
[19:39:43] <wjp> (endline-style, and all that)
[19:40:25] <RonC> Does it matter?
[19:40:29] <wjp> to use cvs, go to the directory where you want to put the exult source, and run:
[19:40:33] <wjp> cvs -d:pserver:firstname.lastname@example.org:/cvsroot/exult login
[19:40:41] <wjp> vs -z3 -d:pserver:email@example.com:/cvsroot/exult co exult
[19:40:47] <wjp> um, cvs
[19:40:55] * wjp can't even copy-paste... *sigh* :-)
[19:42:38] <RonC> Well, I have the source extracted....
[19:44:43] <RonC> Holy crap! That works great.
[19:45:27] <RonC> Ok, now I got the source, what do I do?
[19:47:54] <RonC> ???
[19:47:56] <wjp> first change to the directory you just downloaded the source into
[19:48:10] <wjp> it should contain 'autogen.sh'
[19:48:51] <wjp> then you run that, by saying "./autogen.sh"
[19:49:11] <RonC> Ok, will this hurt anything?
[19:49:31] <wjp> anything? like what? :-)
[19:51:11] <RonC> grr, hold on
[19:53:08] <RonC> ok..
[19:53:21] <RonC> you are now ready to run ./configure
[19:53:24] <RonC> should I?
[19:53:29] <wjp> any errors above that?
[19:53:45] <wjp> (the script doesn't check for errors when saying "you are now ready to..." :-( )
[19:53:57] <RonC> it says some stufff
[19:54:14] <RonC> it says you shoud update your 'aclocal.m4'...
[19:54:21] <wjp> that's ok
[19:54:24] <RonC> ok
[19:54:27] <wjp> things like "installing file xyz" are ok too
[19:54:32] <RonC> yes.
[19:54:38] <wjp> ok, then you need to decide what you want to build into exult
[19:55:01] <RonC> well. I don't have the time right now...
[19:55:09] <RonC> can we pause and continue this later?
[19:55:14] <wjp> sure :-)
[19:55:18] <RonC> Ok.
[19:55:31] <RonC> I'll probably write up a tutorial for yoyu later :)
[19:55:46] <RonC> That way, no need to tell people all this junk :)
[19:55:51] <wjp> :-)
[19:56:01] <RonC> ok, i'll ttyl then.
[19:56:03] <wjp> there are probably already tutorials for this, btw
[19:56:09] <RonC> aw :(
[19:56:17] <wjp> it's roughly how most open-source projects work
[19:56:24] <RonC> True.
[19:56:33] <RonC> I'm involved with one...
[19:57:05] <RonC> Ok, will you be here in a few hours?
[19:57:15] <wjp> yeah, probably
[19:57:22] <wjp> see you then :-)
[19:57:28] <RonC> ok, talk to you then. :)
[19:57:47] <RonC> Good day. Live long and Prosper.
[19:59:26] <-- RonC has left #exult ()
[20:02:21] * wjp wonders if he should delete the replies to the "converted into an automaton" thread
[20:02:55] <Colourless> you'll get no complaints from me
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[20:38:36] <wjp> hi
[20:40:42] <EsBee-Eks> oh, hello
[20:40:42] * EsBee-Eks was afk.
[20:41:02] <EsBee-Eks> im playing TBG again, Batlin asked me to go on his stupid mission
[20:41:24] <EsBee-Eks> and EA and the ship were last seen in Paws
[21:01:04] <EsBee-Eks> brb
[21:01:06] <-- EsBee-Eks has left IRC ("X-Chat [1.6.4]")
[21:11:52] --> EsBee-Eks has joined #exult
[21:36:33] <EsBee-Eks> SB-X: "Cairbre" Kallibrus: "To have been partners for many, many years. To have been bonded for even longer!" Cairbre: "He, uh, means by bonded, that we are very good friends". He turns to the gargoyle. "I told thee to be careful how thou dost phrase things. Thou couldst start many false rumors if thou wert not more specific." The gargoyle nods sheepishly.
[21:36:46] <wjp> hehe :-)
[21:37:11] <Colourless> :-)
[22:21:10] <Colourless> i think i'll go
[22:21:12] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("cya")
[22:25:51] <EsBee-Eks> ?
[22:30:13] <EsBee-Eks> Is Raymundo the play directory modelled after a Origin member?
[22:30:13] <EsBee-Eks> director
[22:32:08] * EsBee-Eks auditions to be The Avatar.
[22:34:41] <EsBee-Eks> With the staff in hand, you try the lines once more. This time you feel like a true actor. The lines flow from your lips as if the Avatar were really saying them. You feel an excitement you have never before felt. You like this 'acting' thing. You crave more! You anxiously await Raymundo's critique... Raymundo takes the staff and says, "Hmmmm. Yes, that's fine. I thank thee. Fine. We shall be in touch, yes? Thank thee for coming in. If thou ha
[22:34:41] <EsBee-Eks> st a resume, just leave it by the door, yes? Thank thee."
[22:35:10] <EsBee-Eks> :-\
[22:38:23] <-- EsBee-Eks has left IRC ("brb")
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[23:45:07] <RonC> Good evening!
[23:45:14] <-- Darke|afk has left IRC (herbert.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
[23:45:47] <wjp> good night :-)
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[23:46:06] <RonC> hi
[23:47:01] <RonC> So, could you help me finish that up?
[23:47:10] <wjp> yeah
[23:47:26] <wjp> as I was saying, you'll need to decide what you want to compile exactly
[23:47:36] <wjp> specifically: exult studio? the gimp plugin?
[23:47:47] <EsBee-Eks> hi
[23:47:52] <wjp> debugging mode?
[23:48:10] <EsBee-Eks> They don't really bother to explain how some people are still alive after 200 years in Britannia. :-)
[23:48:22] <EsBee-Eks> s/people/people and Sherry the Mouse/
[23:48:33] <EsBee-Eks> i recommend debugging
[23:48:46] <wjp> me too
[23:48:57] <wjp> assuming you just want to build the lot:
[23:49:07] <wjp> ./configure --enable-debug --enable-exult-studio --enable-gimp-plugin
[23:49:25] <RonC> Why reccomend debugging?
[23:49:37] <wjp> gives lots of useful output when running
[23:49:45] <EsBee-Eks> to see whats going on
[23:49:56] <RonC> Ok, that's cool.
[23:50:03] <wjp> (and lots of useless output too, for that matter... need to clean that up sometime :-) )
[23:50:16] <EsBee-Eks> like
[23:50:16] <EsBee-Eks> Sentri at distance 1 trying to catch up.
[23:50:16] <EsBee-Eks> :-) *shrug*
[23:50:44] <wjp> well, that's semi-useful; it'll let you know when pathfinding is acting up again
[23:51:12] <EsBee-Eks> maybe there should be dbg levels for different message, and you can set a run-time option how high a level you want
[23:51:24] <wjp> "Okay. It looks like an IFF file chunk" for instance
[23:51:33] <RonC> Or manually config from an XML file...
[23:51:37] <wjp> yeah, something like that would be nice
[23:51:49] <RonC> ok, i'm going to try this command.
[23:52:00] <wjp> sbx: did you try my playmidi patch yet, btw?
[23:52:17] <EsBee-Eks> i meant my comment about sentri actually was "useful" ... i seem to be lagged since im downloading stuff
[23:52:22] <RonC> uh oh.
[23:52:30] <wjp> ah, ok
[23:52:46] <EsBee-Eks> no
[23:53:14] <RonC> It's talking something about a lex output file root... it gives me an error.
[23:53:17] <EsBee-Eks> i didnt know you wanted me to stop playing to modify the code :)
[23:53:22] <RonC> Do I need to do this in a root shell?
[23:53:32] <wjp> sbx: it's in CVS already
[23:53:39] <wjp> RonC: what's the exact message?
[23:53:55] <wjp> and, no, you don't need root for this yet
[23:54:20] <RonC> copy and paste is a little screwy since I can't get Xchat to work.
[23:54:53] <wjp> what client are you using then?
[23:54:59] <wjp> most should support middle-mouse-button pasting
[23:55:10] <EsBee-Eks> wjp: if you dont need me to to test it now, it can wait till i get through the game because i just disabled the splash screen
[23:55:17] <wjp> sbx: sure, no hurry
[23:55:41] <EsBee-Eks> or emulate-3rd
[23:55:41] <EsBee-Eks> ok
[23:56:12] <RonC> I'm using a windows client through Wine...
[23:56:16] <RonC> checking lex output file root... ./configure: lex: command not found
[23:56:30] <wjp> hm, does it abort on that?
[23:56:39] <RonC> configure: error: cannot find output file from lex; giving up
[23:57:18] <RonC> then it aborts...
[23:57:26] <wjp> ok, you'll need the 'flex' and 'bison' packages, then
[23:57:53] <wjp> not exactly nice that it really requires them, since they're only needed for the usecode compiler
[23:59:19] <EsBee-Eks> --disable-compiler?
[23:59:40] <wjp> yes, but from looking at configure.in that doesn't actually disable the checks for flex/bison