#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 22 Mar 2001 (GMT)

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[00:31:41] --> Kirben has joined #exult
[00:32:34] <Kirben> odd compile error:
[00:32:35] <Kirben> g++ -g3 -mwindows -o tools/expack.exe tools/expack.o U7file.o Flex.o IFF.o Table
[00:32:36] <Kirben> .o Flat.o utils.o -lmingw32 -L./sdl/lib -lSDLmain -lSDL -lwinmm
[00:32:36] <Kirben> make: *** No rule to make target `data/bgfiredoom.shp', needed by `data/exult.fl
[00:32:36] <Kirben> x'. Stop.
[00:32:49] <Fingolfin> oh
[00:32:52] <Fingolfin> darn
[00:33:02] <Fingolfin> means wjp forgot to add it to Makefile.win32 I guess
[00:33:07] <Fingolfin> I'll fix that ASAP
[00:33:44] <Kirben> makefile.cygwin too
[00:34:14] <Fingolfin> yeah
[00:34:18] <Fingolfin> all of them I guess ;)
[00:36:05] <Fingolfin> hmmmmmm
[00:36:38] <Fingolfin> it is in the Makefile here..........
[00:36:43] <Fingolfin> which makefile are you building?
[00:38:01] <Kirben> makefile.cygwin
[00:38:29] <Kirben> odd seems to be in makefile here too:
[00:38:30] <Kirben> data/bgfiredoom.shp \
[00:39:55] * Fingolfin scratches his head
[01:21:31] <Kirben> I see problem, file was not added to cvs
[01:21:44] <Fingolfin> oh no, really?????
[01:21:52] <Kirben> yes really
[01:24:53] <Fingolfin> ok how about this:
[01:25:05] <Fingolfin> you email to the ML about this, and I club wjp when he comes in tomorrow ;)
[01:25:17] <Fingolfin> or maybe you club him, too ;)
[01:30:56] <Fingolfin> ?log
[01:30:56] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exultlog.php3
[01:38:20] --> DraX has joined #exult
[01:38:26] <DraX> hello
[01:38:40] <Fingolfin> hi
[01:39:40] <DraX> Fingolfin, any port work today :)
[01:40:02] <Fingolfin> python
[01:40:10] <DraX> cool
[01:40:15] <Fingolfin> actually, that already should work ;)
[01:40:24] <Fingolfin> after I played a bit around with the configure flags
[01:40:35] <DraX> do you work with macs for a living?
[01:40:50] <Fingolfin> I am studying, not living ;)
[01:40:56] <DraX> Fingolfin, hehe
[01:40:57] <DraX> ok
[01:41:09] <DraX> just like them?
[01:43:40] <DraX> just emailed the openbsd threading guy
[01:44:29] <Fingolfin> well, I have been working with macs for well over ten years now
[01:44:34] <Fingolfin> hm
[01:44:42] <Fingolfin> actually, about exactly 10 years ;)
[01:45:37] <DraX> Fingolfin, i want a mac :)
[01:45:53] <Fingolfin> hehe
[01:46:38] <DraX> my hdd platers are shaking
[01:48:28] * DraX is going to build exult on a freebsd box to see if we have the same problem
[01:58:18] <DraX> it's nice to have friends with 800mhz boxes :)
[01:59:03] <Fingolfin> but its nicer to have one oneself
[01:59:07] <Fingolfin> ;)
[01:59:12] <DraX> Fingolfin, very true ;)
[01:59:18] <DraX> but cash is not something i have
[01:59:18] <Fingolfin> thx ;)
[01:59:39] <DraX> Fingolfin, i don't even actully know the guy i'm using the box of, it's a friend of a friend
[01:59:47] <Fingolfin> hehe
[02:00:02] <DraX> freebsd 4.2-stable which is what i need
[02:00:12] <DraX> i'm also gonna see if i can get a build going on netbsd
[02:00:36] <DraX> what breaks on openbsd in SDL builds perfectly in freebsd
[02:02:18] * mattownby pats his 800 mhz box
[02:03:47] <DraX> well seems a freebsd snapshot will come out of this if nothing else
[02:04:25] <Fingolfin> hmmm
[02:04:45] <Fingolfin> on a typical unix machine, who would own /usr/local/bin ?!? root? or who
[02:04:53] <Fingolfin> DraX: could you check that for me quickly?
[02:04:54] <DraX> bin
[02:05:01] <Fingolfin> hmm ok
[02:05:10] <DraX> actully root wheel for me
[02:05:15] <Fingolfin> ahah
[02:05:17] <Fingolfin> me too
[02:05:18] <DraX> but thats because it's not a standard dir
[02:05:24] <Fingolfin> actually
[02:05:29] <Fingolfin> it is ;)
[02:05:37] <Fingolfin> python installs there at least ;) and many other apps, too
[02:05:56] <Fingolfin> e.g. automake,libtool
[02:06:05] <DraX> *cough* gnu *cough*
[02:07:27] <mattownby> DraX: ?
[02:07:49] <mattownby> DraX: I have detected an unfriendly stance on your part toward Linux, and I'm not sure I like it, after seeing all the problems you've had with BSD.. hehe
[02:08:05] <DraX> mattownby, simply because software is DESIGNED for linux
[02:08:12] <DraX> dosen't mean it's nessicerly good
[02:08:20] <DraX> thats like saying windows is good :)
[02:09:31] <DraX> and my unfriendliness is mainly towards GNU and RMS
[02:09:37] <mattownby> RMS hehe...
[02:09:41] <Fingolfin> well
[02:09:41] <DraX> i still remeber that line in sh-tools
[02:09:51] <mattownby> does this mean you're not using gcc?
[02:09:55] <Fingolfin> " At the time I wrote this article, my /usr/local/bin had 560 files in it-"
[02:10:01] <DraX> mattownby, it's really my only option
[02:10:15] <DraX> Fingolfin, if it uses autoconf it basically is in /usr/local/bin
[02:10:17] <Fingolfin> I think GNU is very good thing
[02:10:23] <DraX> BSD forever!
[02:10:24] <Fingolfin> wel
[02:10:33] <DraX> GNU is a nice thing
[02:10:34] <DraX> RMS is not
[02:10:39] <DraX> RMS makes GNU a pain
[02:10:48] <Fingolfin> without autoconf and GNU, you would have far less software on your *BSD box!
[02:10:59] <DraX> Fingolfin, very true
[02:11:00] <Fingolfin> ?
[02:11:07] <mattownby> I think GNU is pretty cool
[02:11:07] <DraX> but without RMS i would have far more
[02:11:22] <Fingolfin> why does RMS make GNU a pain? that implies firstly that GNU is a pain - what about it is?
[02:11:24] <Fingolfin> please explain
[02:11:38] <DraX> the way he attacks everything
[02:11:46] <DraX> if it's not "Open SOurce"
[02:11:52] <DraX> like APL forisntance
[02:11:54] <Fingolfin> well
[02:12:18] <mattownby> I think he attacks things because it takes people a long time to figure out what he is trying to say about Free Software
[02:12:25] <Fingolfin> he partly has very good things to say, but I disagree with a lot of his stuff, too; but I just don't see how this makes "GNU a pain"
[02:12:31] <mattownby> and he wants to preach the Free Software way
[02:12:35] <Fingolfin> yeah
[02:12:45] <DraX> well he's a nazi about it
[02:12:49] <DraX> he calls things fascist
[02:12:50] <mattownby> I have benefited from a ton of GPL'd projects
[02:13:00] <DraX> but he MEETS the dictionary definition of the word
[02:13:01] <mattownby> and have been very grateful for having them around
[02:13:23] <Fingolfin> well, RMS certainly is a fanatic, and I do not like fanatics, regardless for what they stand
[02:13:26] <Fingolfin> but
[02:13:34] <Fingolfin> he is a single person
[02:13:41] <Fingolfin> and it would be crap to say GNU == RMS
[02:13:42] <Fingolfin> so
[02:13:46] <DraX> the way he propagates the bull shit
[02:13:51] <mattownby> I like when RMS bashes Microsoft
[02:13:53] <Fingolfin> how does this change anything about GNU???
[02:14:03] <DraX> Fingolfin, he's connected to it
[02:14:07] <Fingolfin> tsa
[02:14:07] <Fingolfin> !
[02:14:12] <Fingolfin> that is stupid, come on!
[02:14:16] <DraX> and he has damaged work done to GNU projects
[02:14:21] <DraX> to propagate his bullshit
[02:14:33] <DraX> the famed jwz worked on emacs for a while
[02:14:38] <Fingolfin> I am german, hence I am connecte to Hitler in some ways, does this make me worse or good?
[02:14:46] <Fingolfin> bah
[02:14:52] <Fingolfin> and he has done a big lot for gnu!
[02:15:02] <Fingolfin> he started it; he wrote the first gcc
[02:15:05] <mattownby> rms wrote gcc hehe
[02:15:08] <mattownby> and bison too
[02:15:09] <Fingolfin> without him we would not have GNU!
[02:15:13] <Fingolfin> but still
[02:15:14] <mattownby> I am using bison in school right now
[02:15:15] <Fingolfin> what is your point
[02:15:16] <DraX> well large amounts of xemacs were not implemented into it because it didn't meet his way
[02:15:24] <Fingolfin> you may hate & loathe RMS, that is fine with me
[02:15:37] <Fingolfin> but still: why does this make GNU bad????
[02:15:37] <DraX> i don't nessiceraly hate and loathe gnu
[02:15:41] <DraX> i just try to avoid it
[02:15:51] <DraX> i also find the GPL to restrictive
[02:16:13] <Fingolfin> DraX: and about emacs & xemecas: that story has two sides, and I do not think one is the good and one is the evil side... the lucent guys made bad things, too!
[02:17:31] <DraX> RMS really turns me away form gnu
[02:17:37] <DraX> becuase of his prominense in the organzation
[02:18:21] <DraX> s/form/from
[02:19:24] <mattownby> I like the GPL
[02:19:38] <DraX> i like the BSD license
[02:19:44] <DraX> and the X11/MIT license
[02:19:59] <mattownby> and I admire people who are brave enough to release under it =]
[02:20:18] <DraX> you have to be more brave to release under BSD or X11/MIT in my opinion
[02:21:10] * Fingolfin shrugs
[02:21:11] <Fingolfin> well
[02:21:19] <DraX> having released two apps under BSD and one under X11/MIT, it is sort of scary to know the closed source implecations that could be forced if you really tried
[02:21:20] <Fingolfin> licenses are like religions, I think ;)
[02:21:28] <mattownby> doesn't BSD say that you can do whatever you want w/ the code as long as you give credit to the original authors?
[02:21:40] <DraX> mattownby, yes
[02:22:04] <mattownby> what is brave about that?
[02:22:19] <mattownby> well let me expain better
[02:22:26] <DraX> mattownby, i've seen someone change software licensed under BSD to GPL
[02:22:28] <DraX> like that
[02:23:56] <DraX> i'm not going to fight over licensing
[02:24:03] <DraX> as fing said, it's religion
[02:24:28] <mattownby> my current project (http://daphne.rulecity.com) is a laserdisc arcade game emulator. My main concerns with having the source open are that another emulator team (MAME) will take our work and release it in their emulator and we won't get any credit or recognition for being the pioneers. This makes BSD look good. On the other hand, we don't want anyone taking our code and us9ing it in a closed source product. That makes the GPL attractive.
[02:24:29] <mattownby> the other hand, we don't want anyone selling our work either so that makes the GPL bad.
[02:24:50] <mattownby> IMO, there is a much bigger risk going w/ the GPL... than something else
[02:25:00] <mattownby> that's why I say people are brave to use it
[02:25:02] <DraX> mattownby, i beleive they must give credit with the GPL
[02:25:16] <mattownby> I would be pretty pissed if the creators of Dragon's Lair tried to sell my emulator hehe...
[02:25:41] <DraX> and i actully would be happy if the MAME people "stole" your work
[02:25:56] <DraX> opensource should be comunial
[02:25:59] <DraX> people should SHARE
[02:26:04] <DraX> no one need be credited
[02:26:07] <DraX> just share your code
[02:26:22] <mattownby> that's very easy for you to say
[02:26:44] <DraX> for instance in my online classroom my original database calls are from another app, i emailed the guy and he just said don't worry about it
[02:26:52] <DraX> didn't care to be credited
[02:27:44] <mattownby> what does this have to do with me?
[02:27:50] <mattownby> I've put years into this project
[02:27:58] <DraX> mattownby, he put years into his project
[02:28:05] <mattownby> for someone to just stand on my shoulders and "finish" the job, that would be devastating
[02:28:06] <DraX> and said he need not take credit
[02:28:49] <DraX> mattownby, this is why i won't argue licensing, because i think thats a load of garbage
[02:28:53] <DraX> opensource is to be shared
[02:29:01] <DraX> not for people to cry about not being credited
[02:29:07] <mattownby> what an awful attitude
[02:29:08] <DraX> X11/MIT dosen't even require crediting
[02:29:14] <DraX> mattownby, to you
[02:29:24] <DraX> mattownby, your attititude is awful to me
[02:30:04] <mattownby> ok..
[02:30:07] <mattownby> this discussion is over
[02:30:19] <DraX> atheos would not have a rtl8139 or 3c509 network driver if it werent for "stealing" code
[02:34:04] <DraX> how do i set the SDL dir in exult configure?
[02:44:29] <Fingolfin> no idea
[02:44:39] <DraX> put sdl-config in path :)
[02:45:08] <DraX> everyone ready for some marvelous freebsd fixes :)
[02:45:33] <Fingolfin> hm, actually, i need to go to bed now ;) it's almost 4 AM
[02:45:37] <Fingolfin> and I need to get up early
[02:45:48] <Fingolfin> could you collect the fixes into an email and email it to the mailing list?
[02:46:02] <DraX> of course :)
[02:46:14] <Fingolfin> ok
[02:46:24] <Fingolfin> sleep well, folks
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[09:00:59] <Kamilion> hmm
[09:01:33] <Kamilion> Just dropped in to say Exult rocks! Worked the first time I ran it :D
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[10:19:33] --- Topic for #exult is: Exult, the open source Ultima 7 and U7 part 2 engine
[10:19:33] --- Topic for #exult set by ChanServ at Sat Mar 17 00:53:49 2001
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[11:00:14] * Fingolfin thwaps wjp with a trout
[11:00:16] <Fingolfin> hi wjp
[11:00:24] <Fingolfin> wjp: checkin that file, dude! ;)
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[11:14:25] <Kirben> thats odd, didn't get email for last cvs update or 2
[11:15:34] <wjp> hi
[11:15:51] <wjp> Fingolfin|afk: I already comitted it hours ago... :-)
[11:16:19] <Kirben> Hi
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[11:59:46] <Colourless> hi
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[12:18:09] <ashp> Meow, anyone alive?
[12:18:22] <ashp> I found a minor, yet wildly irritating bug in the SI support from yesterdays CVS :)
[12:18:33] <Colourless> explain
[12:19:01] <ashp> after the lightning strikes and you lose all your possessions, the backpack the avatar gets is strangly unopenable
[12:19:15] <ashp> things can happily be sucked into the void that is the backpack, just never opened and taken out
[12:19:35] <ashp> If I knew what the hell I was doing, I'd provide more useful debugging info
[12:19:53] <Colourless> interesting, I'll have to look at it
[12:20:41] <ashp> trying to repeat atm, I think if I remember I *removed* the backpack and left it on the ship to 'see what would happen'
[12:20:54] <ashp> if I remember the original engine could get confused and leave bits of equipment behind
[12:21:24] <ashp> just walking straight down this time left me with an openable backpack
[12:21:25] <Colourless> hmmm, such a bug isn't really worth investigating at this stage then
[12:21:35] <ashp> yeah, it's pretty minor to be honest. :)
[12:22:57] <ashp> yeah, I can repeat it if I drop the backpack before reaching the lightening
[12:23:46] <Colourless> that unopenable backpack might be the 'usecode container'. Just click on it once to see if you can get a name for it
[12:24:15] <ashp> ok
[12:24:30] <ashp> I like to do bizarre things to see if the engine pukes :)
[12:24:45] <ashp> I used to trick the original into leaving the spellbook, which helped.
[12:25:17] <ashp> woah, this time it started, I clicked before the ship appeared and now no graphics appeared, yet I can move around.
[12:25:38] <Colourless> that's a known bug
[12:25:42] <ashp> Ah, ok. :)
[12:26:47] <ashp> I get the name 'backpack' when I click on it once
[12:26:55] <Colourless> hmmm
[12:27:48] <ashp> Is there anything in the cheat menu I can enable to get more information about an object?
[12:27:57] <Colourless> sorry, no
[12:28:11] <ashp> Shame, that would have been a nice way to check :)
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[12:41:38] <Fingolfin> hi ryan
[12:41:48] <Colourless> hi
[12:42:09] <Fingolfin> ok, I am goinh again ;)
[12:42:22] <Fingolfin> to visit my grandpa... just come from my grandma ;)
[12:42:31] <Colourless> :)
[12:42:41] <Fingolfin> btw, exult runs on OS X! although with glitces, and without sound, but it runs ;)
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[14:54:42] <wjp> hi
[14:54:52] <Colourless> hi
[14:55:20] <Colourless> you realise that you didn't commit data/bgfiredoom.shp
[14:55:30] <wjp> already did that
[14:55:34] <wjp> (5 hours ago)
[14:56:04] <Colourless> interesting, i've got not email
[14:56:09] <wjp> me neither...
[14:56:21] <wjp> I didn't get the 'oops' email I replied to Tristan either
[14:56:39] <Colourless> but after checking, the shape exists
[14:56:51] <Colourless> odd
[14:58:30] * wjp is fighting with an NT4 install
[14:58:45] <wjp> "press enter to reboot" ... rebooting ... "Missing operating system"
[14:59:21] <Colourless> who seriously uses NT4 :)
[14:59:25] <wjp> hey, it's actually working the 4th time!
[14:59:33] <wjp> I don't :-)
[15:09:10] * wjp has to go again
[15:09:12] <wjp> bbl
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[18:48:11] <Fingolfin> hiya
[18:48:18] <wjp> hi
[18:48:20] <Colourless> hi
[18:51:58] <wjp> I think I'm going to split up exult.flx now
[18:53:25] <Fingolfin> good
[18:54:28] <wjp> Hmm... this is not good... how can 'Algebra' by Lang possibly cost 470 guilders?? (book, btw)
[18:55:09] <Fingolfin> uhmm
[18:55:16] <Fingolfin> inflation? ;)
[18:55:46] <wjp> sure :-)
[18:56:16] <wjp> hmm... Amazon.com has it for $70
[18:56:34] <wjp> better, but still pricey
[18:56:39] <Colourless> I almost thought you were talking about something in exult there... one the currencies in Serpent Isle is guilders. I was thinking wtf, algebra in SI??
[18:56:53] <wjp> lol
[18:57:34] <wjp> (470 guilders is about $200-$225 I think)
[18:58:16] <Colourless> that's a lot
[18:58:24] <wjp> yup
[18:58:38] <wjp> Exult question: does the credits font have a \'e ?
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[18:59:14] <freedman> $200 for a math book??
[18:59:18] <wjp> and we didn't even mention usecode :-)
[18:59:23] <wjp> hi Jeff
[18:59:34] <wjp> pricey, isn't it :-)
[18:59:35] <Colourless> hi
[18:59:37] <freedman> Hi.
[18:59:42] <wjp> Amazon has it for $70, though
[19:00:02] <freedman> That's a bit more like it. That's a pretty old book.
[19:00:21] <wjp> it covers the basics pretty well
[19:00:52] <freedman> I think I have 'Commutative Algebra' by him somewhere in a box. It's been a looong time.
[19:01:19] <wjp> :-)
[19:01:54] <freedman> I vaguesly remember a 'module' being something different from a source file:-)
[19:02:01] <wjp> hehe :-)
[19:02:17] <freedman> Planning a being a professor?
[19:02:25] <wjp> a module... "vector space" over a ring, or something
[19:02:43] <wjp> I'm just 3rd year now... not a clue what I want to do later
[19:03:35] <freedman> Anyone read the GNU-BSD flame war on the #Exult logs earlier?
[19:03:48] <wjp> not yet...
[19:03:50] <Colourless> no.
[19:04:13] <wjp> did it get serious enough to have to ban people? ;-)
[19:04:39] <freedman> They seem to have settled it by dropping the subject...
[19:04:53] <freedman> Too bad Tristan wasn't there.:-)
[19:06:37] <freedman> Ryan: SI does seem to be getting better. The usecode changes must be on the right track.
[19:07:40] <wjp> hmm... 36 pounds on amazon.co.uk
[19:08:02] <freedman> ~70 dollars?
[19:08:13] <Colourless> freedman: Yeah. Other non trivial things are problems though, such as world wrapping.
[19:08:17] <wjp> probably, yes :-)
[19:08:26] <wjp> might be a bit less, though
[19:08:37] <freedman> Colourless: I thought you fixed world-wrapping.
[19:09:04] <wjp> IIRC, Ryan just suggested we write future code with world-wrapping in mind
[19:09:08] <Colourless> freedman: no, i haven't. I still aim on doing it though.
[19:09:30] <freedman> Good. It looks like too much of a pain for me:-)
[19:10:01] <wjp> Jeff, did you catch the question about the \'e in the credits?
[19:10:19] <freedman> No. Was that with the French version?
[19:10:31] <wjp> well, Artaxerxes' real name has one...
[19:10:53] <wjp> and I think he should get a mention there
[19:11:41] <freedman> That char. probably isn't in the fonts file. We could add support for BS, perhaps, so we can overwrite chars.
[19:11:59] <wjp> so the french version has a separate fonts file?
[19:12:17] <freedman> Don't know.
[19:13:11] <Colourless> if we had the french fonts.vga it might help wouldn't it
[19:13:48] <freedman> Actually, it would be nice to have the whole version.
[19:14:23] <wjp> <whisper>I did see it on an abandonware site about a month ago, but the d/l server didn't respond</whisper>
[19:15:26] <freedman> heh. We could get it from a user & put it in a private spot on SourceForge... But that would be a huge download for us modem users.
[19:15:54] <wjp> or we could do a diff with the english version...
[19:16:47] <freedman> Yes. It might be that the only differing files are usecode and text.flx.
[19:17:56] <Fingolfin> back
[19:17:59] <Fingolfin> hi jeff!
[19:18:12] <freedman> Survived the license war?
[19:18:27] <Fingolfin> 36 pound are about 100 DM, are about $50-60 dollar, I think
[19:18:38] <Fingolfin> freedman: with DraX ? ;)
[19:18:44] <wjp> Fingolfin: right
[19:18:57] <Fingolfin> heheh
[19:18:58] <freedman> I saw the logs. Amusing.
[19:19:03] <Fingolfin> well
[19:19:13] <Fingolfin> I had a talk with matt later, in private
[19:19:41] <Fingolfin> DraX has a sliglthly "communist" PoV, IMHO ;)
[19:19:56] <Fingolfin> I mean, if it belongs to everyone, then usual nobody feels responsible...
[19:20:07] <Fingolfin> and nobody is inclined to do anything...
[19:20:13] <freedman> :-) Convinced Matt to put a GNU sticker on his car?
[19:20:29] <Fingolfin> why do I work on exult? for fun; and so that I can play U7 again; and of course for the fame, too ;)
[19:20:43] <Colourless> always the fame
[19:20:52] <freedman> Pretty much the same here.
[19:20:56] <Fingolfin> well, he asked me what we would do if origin shipped exult and sold it...
[19:21:12] <Fingolfin> I said that it boiled down to this:
[19:21:13] <freedman> I'd brag about it!:-)
[19:21:41] <Fingolfin> they wouldn't sell exult; they would sell the U7 data files, and as a free addon would ship a copy of exult, which still would be exult, only that they officially approved it
[19:21:46] <Fingolfin> so yes, we would brag about it ;)
[19:21:53] <Fingolfin> and it would still bear our names ;)
[19:22:17] <Colourless> not going to happen anyway really will it. With the cancelling of UO2 origin pretty much doesn't exist anymore
[19:22:20] <freedman> ...and we'd have game companies pursuing us with $200K/year offers!!!:-)
[19:22:36] <wjp> heh :-)
[19:22:43] <freedman> :-( Probably not.
[19:23:07] <wjp> nah... but I'd settle for $150K/year too ;-)
[19:23:14] <Fingolfin> lol
[19:23:27] <freedman> Same here. But not a penny less...
[19:23:36] <Colourless> i'd settle for less :)
[19:24:20] <freedman> I used to think like Matt. Nothing like having a few jobs where the code gets buried to make GPL look more attractive.
[19:26:50] <Fingolfin> oh well
[19:27:06] <Fingolfin> I still stand to what I wrote yesterday: licenses are like religions ;)
[19:27:40] <freedman> Yes:-) But I'm not sure why people get so emotional about them.
[19:27:56] * Fingolfin shrugs
[19:28:14] <Colourless> people get emotional over the sillies things on the internet
[19:28:20] <Colourless> silliest even
[19:28:36] <freedman> KDE vs Gnome!
[19:28:47] <freedman> BSD vs Linux
[19:29:00] <wjp> VI vs Emacs!
[19:29:11] <freedman> Forgot that one:-)
[19:29:15] <wjp> :-)
[19:29:36] <freedman> X vs anything
[19:30:04] <Fingolfin> windows vs. mac and amiga vs atari st used to be popular, too
[19:30:11] <Fingolfin> and donīt forget star wars vs. star trek
[19:30:28] <Colourless> intel vs amd
[19:31:06] <Colourless> ultima 7 vs serpent isle :)
[19:31:37] <Fingolfin> me vs. the rest of the world ;)
[19:32:52] <freedman> Hey, forgot about the AtariST. I owned one (so you know where I stood:-))
[19:33:24] <freedman> OF course: OS/2 vs Windows That was huge.
[19:33:33] <wjp> hmm... why hasn't mozilla 0.8.1 been released yet?
[19:33:44] <wjp> it should've been released this monday :-(
[19:34:01] <freedman> Is mozilla any good? Didn't care much for the newer NS betas.
[19:34:22] <wjp> I use Mozilla 0.8 as my default browser
[19:34:52] <wjp> it's working more or less ok
[19:34:53] <freedman> Gotta try it.
[19:41:37] <Fingolfin> I owned an Atari ST, too ;)
[19:41:55] <Fingolfin> first a 512, then a Mega ST, then a Mega STE in fact, all bought used/inherited from someone ;)
[19:42:07] <Fingolfin> mozilla is nice, yes
[19:42:26] <Fingolfin> but IE 5(.1) on MacOS is much better integrated, so I stick with it for now
[19:43:45] <freedman> I hate to admit that I prefer Windows IE5 to Linux Netscape. But Konqueror is my main browser now.
[19:44:13] <wjp> haven't used Konqueror yet...
[19:44:21] <wjp> maybe I should try it sometime
[19:44:50] <freedman> It's quite good, but you pretty much need to have KDE to take full advantage. So a nice stand-alone Mozilla would be useful.
[19:45:21] <wjp> hmm... /me doesn't really like KDE
[19:45:45] <freedman> Uhoh. Another war:-)
[19:46:08] <wjp> heh :-)
[19:46:15] <freedman> I use it at work, but prefer Blackbox at home for working on Exult.
[19:46:24] <wjp> blackbox?
[19:47:06] <freedman> A minimalist window manager. No icons, even. Comes up in about a second, vs 10 secs for KDE.
[19:48:29] <freedman> ... and hardly uses any screen space. Has simple text menus (easy to modify), and does have virtual screens.
[19:49:02] <wjp> might be nice to try sometime
[19:49:20] <freedman> What do you use?
[19:49:23] <wjp> gnome
[19:49:50] <freedman> I've never really tried it.
[19:51:55] <wjp> hmm... how to generate exult_bg.flx elegantly...
[19:55:35] <wjp> ok, this should do it...
[19:55:48] <wjp> now I 'just' need to incorporate it into exult
[19:56:10] <freedman> Getting good at that 'configure' stuff?
[19:56:33] <freedman> (I'm terrible at it. I just want to code.)
[19:56:45] <wjp> configure isn't that bad :-)
[19:56:50] <freedman> Time for lunch. Have fun!
[19:56:52] <wjp> it just takes some getting used to
[19:56:55] <wjp> ok, see you later
[19:56:58] <-- freedman has left IRC (Leaving)
[19:59:33] --- wjp is now known as wjp|away
[19:59:34] <wjp|away> bbl
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[20:01:33] <-- Colourless has left IRC (Ping timeout for Colourless[ppp474.adelaide.on.net.au])
[20:01:36] --- Cless is now known as Colourless
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[20:59:17] <wjp> back
[20:59:59] <Colourless> wb
[21:16:44] <wjp> ok, my changes seem to compile...
[21:17:14] <Fingolfin> changes? splited exullt.flx?
[21:17:20] <wjp> yeah
[21:19:03] <Fingolfin> good ;)
[21:19:57] <chimera|work> where is the one known as Willem Jan Palenstijn!!!
[21:20:11] <Fingolfin> uhm
[21:20:11] <wjp> ?
[21:20:14] <Fingolfin> he is not here ;)
[21:20:27] * Fingolfin stands protective before wjp
[21:20:28] <chimera|work> he has a lot to answer for... his crimes will not go unpunished =]
[21:20:40] * wjp looks around nervously
[21:20:41] * chimera|work draws polished blade, as crowd gasps
[21:20:47] <wjp> Alt-G
[21:21:04] * Colourless gasps
[21:21:06] * Fingolfin draws the sword of lies
[21:21:10] <Fingolfin> muwahahah
[21:21:24] <chimera|work> "You cannot draw steel in this chamber!" a fumbling courtier protests. Without changing expressions, chimera smoothly runs him through. The limp body slides off the end of his blade, to lie in a crumbled heap on the floor. Blood pools outward from the corpse.
[21:21:34] <Fingolfin> damn!
[21:21:37] <Fingolfin> I wanted to do that!
[21:21:41] <Fingolfin> filthy bastard
[21:21:42] <Fingolfin> ;)
[21:21:46] <chimera|work> "Now," chimera said through clenched teeth. "I will settle things with WJP!"
[21:21:57] <chimera|work> hehehehe
[21:22:02] * wjp hovers over Ctrl-Alt-T
[21:22:29] * Fingolfin jumps matrix-style over chimera, slashin the sword of lies at chimeras blade...
[21:22:58] * chimera|work deflects the Sword of Lies, though it costs him greatly.
[21:23:21] * Fingolfin quickly pulls around the Sword of Lies, evading chimeras slow move, and cuts chimeras nick name, severing the |name part
[21:23:30] <chimera|work> "So you are the nemesis who has been nipping at my flanks all these years," Chimera gasps in shock, even as he parries another blow.
[21:24:02] <Fingolfin> "You cannot resist the power of the yellow-green stripped side"
[21:24:11] <Fingolfin> "!"
[21:24:40] <Fingolfin> "But I will have my vengance later"
[21:24:42] * chimera|work becomes confused by this unusual taunt and backs away a few steps to get his bearings.
[21:24:59] * Fingolfin sheets the Sword of Lies
[21:25:28] <Fingolfin> [or is it sheat? <g>]
[21:26:09] <Colourless> it's actually sheath
[21:26:31] * Fingolfin decides to look it up in an dictionary and puts back the Sword of Lies into its scabbard
[21:27:02] <chimera|work> sheathes
[21:27:09] <Fingolfin> <sigh>
[21:27:38] * Fingolfin unsheathes the Sword of Lies and beheads exultbot, just out of frustration over these lousy whiners
[21:28:05] * exultbot drops dead
[21:28:16] <Fingolfin> <g>
[21:28:21] * chimera|work watches as the blood of exultbot soils the nice fresh carpets
[21:28:30] * exultbot doesn't bleed
[21:28:34] <Colourless> that's it, you get deoped for that
[21:28:45] * Fingolfin whispers to the channel: "How did the revive speel go again?"
[21:28:46] * Fingolfin sobs
[21:29:00] * chimera|work reminds colourness that colour doesn't have a 'u' in it =]
[21:29:42] * Colourless speaks the Queens English, and colour definitely has a u in it
[21:29:43] <wjp> I'm really impressed with myself... I managed to get exult in an infinite loop without even doing anything
[21:30:00] * Fingolfin whispers to exultbot "Shhhtt, exultbot, or he'll notice it was just a trick!"
[21:31:13] * exultbot is really, really quiet
[21:31:24] <Colourless> here you go exultbot
[21:31:53] <Fingolfin> ?name
[21:31:53] <exultbot> Greetings Avatar. I am called Exultbot.
[21:31:53] <Fingolfin> "Oh well, puny mortal, I beheaded himst! What dost thou expect?"
[21:32:18] <chimera|work> I was just kidding about colour
[21:32:41] * chimera|work cracks Fingolfin's knave's pate
[21:33:32] * Fingolfin carefully touches his cracked knave's pate, wondering what it is
[21:33:45] <chimera|work> hehehehehehe
[21:34:08] <Colourless> YOu won't defeat me that easily :)
[21:34:15] <Fingolfin> heheh
[21:34:20] <Fingolfin> me? I didn't do anything ;)
[21:34:50] --- Colourless has changed the topic to: Watch out for Fingolfing, he's a trouble maker!
[21:34:50] * wjp thinks about lowering the access levels of a few carefully selected individuals ;-)
[21:35:15] --- Colourless has changed the topic to: Watch out for Fingolfin, he's a trouble maker!
[21:35:18] <Fingolfin> wjp: hey hey, no need to punish Colourless, he's not this way usually ;)
[21:35:25] --- Fingolfin is now known as Fingolfing
[21:36:28] <Colourless> can't op yourself now, can you
[21:37:18] <Fingolfing> hrm... wjp, did you do that?
[21:37:18] <Fingolfing> ;)
[21:37:49] * wjp looks around innocently
[21:37:53] <wjp> who, me?
[21:38:06] --- Fingolfing is now known as Fingolfin
[21:38:23] <chimera|work> the real trouble maker isn't in the channel at the moment hehe
[21:38:27] * chimera|work clenches fists
[21:38:36] * chimera|work loosens blade in scabbard. "Oh blade, be true this day!"
[21:39:01] <wjp> now you made me type "handle SIG32 noblade"...
[21:39:29] <chimera|work> hohoho!
[21:39:58] <Fingolfin> LOL
[21:39:59] <chimera|work> "Very well, wjp! For your fine jesting, your sentence of death shall be suspended for one day."
[21:40:11] <wjp> a segfault in line 666... hmmm
[21:41:28] <Fingolfin> <g>
[21:42:06] * wjp wonders if chimera|work is making fun of him
[21:42:42] <wjp> :-)
[21:43:04] <Colourless> 7ops don't need +v
[21:43:15] <wjp> hmm.... oops :-)
[21:43:21] * chimera|work can breathe again
[21:43:48] * chimera|work gets up off the floor where he had fallen, nearly suffocating.
[21:44:15] * chimera|work draws his blade and backs away. "i don't know what manner of evil magic that was, but I will find a way to counter it! Mark my words! The tyranny will not last forever!"
[21:44:55] <wjp> ok, everything seems to be working...
[21:45:02] <wjp> I'll try to commit everything this time ;-)
[21:45:48] <Colourless> you had better,
[21:45:57] <wjp> oh, wait. I need to update some makefiles
[21:46:26] <Colourless> yes, you had better do that too
[21:46:35] <wjp> :-)
[21:47:07] <chimera|work> Kirben doesn't like it when his win32 is broken hehe
[21:49:04] <wjp> hmmm.... I think it needs path translation. (unix->mac, unix->win)
[21:50:44] <Colourless> Win32 can use unix style paths :)
[21:50:53] <wjp> ok, that's good :-)
[21:52:34] <Fingolfin> hm
[21:52:52] <Fingolfin> we have path translation already
[21:52:58] <wjp> switch_slashes()
[21:53:01] <wjp> found it
[21:53:05] <Fingolfin> hehe
[21:53:11] <Colourless> yeah, and it's not actually required for Win32
[21:53:26] * wjp removes the static from that function
[21:53:37] <Fingolfin> hehe
[21:53:51] <Fingolfin> ryan: that is only because of your C lib
[21:53:53] <Fingolfin> I think
[21:56:55] <Colourless> perhaps, but I can't recall any program that wouldn't allow you to use unix style paths.
[21:58:14] <wjp> ugh... I hate having to use strings and char*'s together
[21:58:21] <Fingolfin> wjp: well
[21:58:30] <Fingolfin> wjp: we should unify it, true, but: where is the big problem?
[21:58:45] <wjp> it's annoying :-)
[21:58:48] <Colourless> i speak too soon :) Some programs think the filename is invalid
[22:00:45] <Colourless> but thats just because of the open file dialog box wont allow it
[22:05:34] <wjp> well.. ok... that should do it
[22:09:06] <wjp> oops
[22:09:14] <wjp> shouldn't have run a cvs update
[22:09:33] * wjp removes all those .shp's from data/ again
[22:09:36] <wjp> *sigh*
[22:11:44] <Fingolfin> hehehe
[22:16:20] <wjp> committing...
[22:18:09] <wjp> ok, done
[22:18:32] <wjp> anybody want to double-check it before I go to bed? :-)
[22:18:43] <Colourless> no
[22:18:50] <Fingolfin> no
[22:18:58] <Fingolfin> we will skin you tomorrow if ti breaks ;)
[22:18:59] <exultbot> no
[22:19:21] <wjp> ok ok ok... I'll try to build it on my univ. account :-)
[22:19:29] <chimera|work> hehe
[22:20:19] <Colourless> it's gotten far to late. I'm off to bed
[22:20:25] <wjp> night
[22:20:48] <-- Colourless has left IRC (if only you knew what time it was... do the maths :))
[22:21:11] <wjp> hmm... about 10 or 11 am ?
[22:25:38] <wjp> oops... forgot to add binary tags
[22:28:26] <Fingolfin> hrm
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[22:36:52] <wjp> hi
[22:37:22] <Kirben> Hi
[22:37:55] <chimera|work> Kirben: there's some good news and some bad news
[22:38:38] <Kirben> bad news first
[22:38:55] <chimera|work> win32 has been cancelled
[22:38:59] <chimera|work> the good news is
[22:39:02] <chimera|work> win32 has been cancelled
[22:39:06] <chimera|work> hehe.. I am just teasing
[22:39:12] * Kirben slaps chimera|work around a bit with a large trout
[22:39:15] <chimera|work> ouch!
[22:39:21] * chimera|work crawls back into his hole
[22:39:44] <Fingolfin> lol
[22:39:45] <wjp> the other bad news is that I've done another big, file-moving, commit :-)
[22:40:08] <chimera|work> wjp: sounds like the mailing list will be rather active in the near future =]
[22:40:32] <chimera|work> Tristan will no doubt say: "This is horrible, please fix this immediately!" like he did to Max that oen time hehe
[22:40:56] <Fingolfin> LOL
[22:41:30] <Kirben> the file split sounds like good news, better structure
[22:41:50] <wjp> just wait until you try to build it :-)
[22:42:12] <Kirben> building now, sofar so good
[22:46:08] <-- Fingolfin has left IRC (Ping timeout for Fingolfin[pD9504D5C.dip.t-dialin.net])
[22:54:09] <Kirben> compiled ok
[22:55:18] <wjp> great
[23:02:11] <wjp> does it run too?
[23:04:26] <Kirben> no, new .flx file is missing from make install
[23:06:42] <Kirben> works fine once I do that manually
[23:07:07] <wjp> ok, fixed, I think
[23:11:18] <wjp> I have to go to bed; see you later
[23:11:24] <Kirben> ok night
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