#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 23 Aug 2001 (GMT)

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[12:15:14] <zx64> hi, someone told me you had trouble with EA in the past?
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[13:29:02] <zx64> hi
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[13:37:58] <Colourless> hi
[13:38:15] <zx64> hi
[13:38:30] <zx64> someone told me your project had trouble with EA in the past?
[13:39:31] <fingolfin> hi, too
[13:39:35] <fingolfin> zx64: thatīs new to me?!?
[13:39:43] <fingolfin> Colourless: we had troubles with EA in the past?
[13:39:51] <Colourless> this someone doesn't sound like they know what they are talking about
[13:40:11] <zx64> hmm
[13:40:13] <Colourless> exult hasn't had any problems with EA
[13:40:54] <fingolfin> in fact, I think they are quite happy about us, we boost sales of the Ultima collection ;)
[13:42:30] <zx64> oh wait, he said Origin
[13:43:02] <Colourless> Origin = EA
[13:43:13] <zx64> yeah, I know
[13:45:25] <zx64> ah well, its just our project (Freecnc) has come under a bit of legal pressure from EA (some EA lawyer emailed sf claiming we had warez copys of the original games on the site), someone on the mailing list thought you had previously had problems with EA too
[13:45:54] <fingolfin> no; maybe some other Ultima-related project had, not sure
[13:46:09] <fingolfin> the important point is: we require you to own U7 in order to play the game
[13:46:17] <fingolfin> hence they still earn money
[13:46:28] <zx64> similar situation to freecnc
[13:46:44] <zx64> but thanks to a lawyer that seems unable to read, our site is down
[13:46:47] <fingolfin> for similiar reasons, Lazarus (U5 in 3d, looks great, the screen shotts at least) requires you to have it, too
[13:46:54] <fingolfin> zx64: uh, bad
[13:47:29] <fingolfin> zx64: so it is down because you were reported as carrying "warez" - but you donīt , so normally this means they have to proof you guilty, np?!?
[13:47:43] <fingolfin> at least in german law, you are innocent until proven guilty...
[13:48:15] <zx64> hmm
[13:48:36] <fingolfin> is that their only base for this? the "warez"?
[13:48:50] <zx64> yeah
[13:48:52] <fingolfin> and: why is the site down? did your team decide to do so? or did your ISP do it?
[13:49:13] <Colourless> EA probably emailed the ISP to tell the to take the site down
[13:49:19] <zx64> case of jump before being pushed
[13:49:26] <zx64> our site is hosted at sourceforge
[13:49:43] <fingolfin> ok, hmmm
[13:50:09] <fingolfin> They demand money for the cease & desist?
[13:51:18] <zx64> I've put the mail sf received on our mailing list (http://www.geocrawler.com/lists/3/SourceForge/5391/0/6429740/)
[13:51:47] <zx64> fingolfin: no, just our site be shut down
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[13:52:01] <zx64> of course, http != CVS :)
[13:52:12] <Colourless> i'm affraid to say, ea are within their rights for what they did
[13:52:20] <Colourless> trademark law is different to copyright law
[13:52:52] <zx64> the letter only mentions the redistribution of "the `game engine`" which isn't the case
[13:53:22] <zx64> however, we are also addressing the issue of trademarked phrases and such
[13:53:26] <fingolfin> LOL, Colourless, read the letter!
[13:53:55] <fingolfin> it sounds to me as if they think FreeCNC was "the game engine" of CNC
[13:53:57] <Colourless> yeah. What does the C&C EULA say?
[13:53:59] <fingolfin> while it is a clone... pfff
[13:54:25] <zx64> Colourless: we havn't reversed engineered anything
[13:54:38] <zx64> plus, my copy of C&C (Dos) didn't come with a click thru-EULA
[13:54:46] <Gandalf> zx64: no...others did that for us :)
[13:55:10] <fingolfin> their request seems not to be well based. IMHO you should put up your site again, and explain that this is not "the" game engine, but that you just wrote a programm that happens to be able to read the CNC data files
[13:55:25] <fingolfin> of course
[13:55:43] <fingolfin> it would be important that you can show another set of data files that work, too, at least if you want to be completly safe
[13:55:59] <zx64> yeah, we support both the original C&C and Red Alert :)
[13:56:10] <fingolfin> otherwise, the original C data is essential to run the programm, which in turn *might* be a problem - although it never was for exult. But IANAL
[13:56:15] <Gandalf> heh :)
[13:56:23] <zx64> but I'd like to do a "Stick Death" version neverthelesss
[13:56:34] <fingolfin> "Stick Death" ?
[13:56:51] <zx64> just crudly drawn stick figures
[13:57:11] <fingolfin> anyway, their letter clearly implies they think you distribute the original game enginge. This is not true. Reply to the letter, explaining this in a polite yet clear manner
[13:57:14] <zx64> with sound effects provided by recording ourselves making "gun" noises
[13:57:17] <fingolfin> then put up your site back again
[13:57:32] <fingolfin> zx64: hehe do that! nobody has to play it, it just has to exist
[13:57:35] <zx64> we have, given them a week to reply, if they don't we put it back up
[13:58:36] <fingolfin> zx64: well, you can, or you can just put it back up now. tell them you see no base in their mail that would require you to shut down; explain to them politelty that it seems there is a misunderstanding. then tell them that of course you are interested in a "friendly" agreement
[13:58:56] <fingolfin> and tell them that of course you will listen to any real arguments
[13:59:11] <fingolfin> this way, they have no point to attack you. they cannot say you were bad willed
[13:59:16] <Colourless> just be careful. EA obviously knows about you, and don't like you. They could take down your site for trademark violations alone.
[13:59:16] <fingolfin> important in court
[13:59:17] <Gandalf> fingolfin: yes...they can buy the project from us...
[13:59:58] <zx64> Gandalf: I might sell my bit for about 99.999% of EA's current value, but that is only a might.. :)
[14:00:10] <Gandalf> heh
[14:00:21] <fingolfin> well, if you want to be sure, keep it down for now. Put up an intermediate site for now. work on alternate data files, remove any direct reference to C&C
[14:00:49] <zx64> ok, and if that fails, we'll do "OpenCNC" as a "completely different and unrelated project to FreeCNC"
[14:01:09] <Gandalf> zx64: with the same code base of course
[14:01:13] <Gandalf> :)
[14:01:32] <fingolfin> nah, that wonīt help you
[14:01:34] <Gandalf> but, I don't expect ea to sue us
[14:01:46] <Gandalf> that would cost far to much money
[14:02:09] <Gandalf> they would loose more then they would gain
[14:02:10] <Colourless> for who, them or you?
[14:02:19] <fingolfin> Gandalf: as Ryam said... if they want they can kill you off over copyright law - so try to be compliant there. Make sure you declare that C&C is trademark owned by EA, etc.
[14:02:22] <Gandalf> Colourless: both maybe?
[14:02:47] <Colourless> it's not always a thing of gain, it's a thing of potential losses
[14:02:47] <fingolfin> Gandalf:be careful. big companies do not follow "common sense" like you might think they do
[14:02:52] <fingolfin> yeah
[14:02:55] <Gandalf> fingolfin: that has been stated on the site since the early hours
[14:03:06] <fingolfin> if you do not in all cases defend a trademark, you can easily loose it completly
[14:03:14] <fingolfin> Gandalf: ok, thatīs good.
[14:03:24] <fingolfin> I canīt judge your site w/o seeing it ;)
[14:03:40] <Gandalf> fingolfin: I have been in the project since the very beginning, I know :)
[14:04:44] <zx64> fingolfin: hmm... I wonder if I create a symlink to /htdocs/ea-really-sucks-so-screw-you/index.php :)
[14:04:58] <fingolfin> anyway, donīt take it too lightly! I say you have no reasons to cower and give up or something, of course not; but do not be too bold, and to not too much rely on what you "believe" they will do.
[14:05:30] <fingolfin> if they give up in once easily, they know they might loose a lot in the future
[14:05:55] <Gandalf> fingolfin: if you consider only the C++ version I have only done general code, manipulating SDL_Surfaces, it happens to work for FreeCNC as well. I'm save :)
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[14:06:07] <Fingolfin|bbl> Gandalf: ;)
[14:06:14] <Fingolfin|bbl> ok, gotta go for a while, cya
[14:06:24] <Gandalf> cya!
[14:06:28] <Colourless> cya
[14:06:38] <zx64> later
[14:07:47] <Colourless> i would imagine that you should be able to come to an some sort of resolution with EA
[14:08:24] <Gandalf> Colourless: I hope this whole issue is simply based on a missunderstanding
[14:09:27] <Gandalf> and that the attorney that send the letter doesn't even know how to turn on a PC
[14:09:29] <Gandalf> :)
[14:10:27] <Gandalf> brb
[14:10:38] <Colourless> o
[14:10:39] <Colourless> k
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[14:17:32] <Gandalf> back
[14:17:48] <Colourless> wb
[14:18:54] <Gandalf> Colourless: hwy did ea contact you? the same reason they contacted us?
[14:19:14] <Colourless> they didn't contact us.
[14:19:43] <Gandalf> erm...fresh up my memory here :) what happened then?
[14:20:10] <Colourless> Jeff, contacted LadyMOI about Exult along time ago. She said she'd talk to the lawyers about Exult, but we don't know what happened
[14:21:14] <Colourless> LadyMOI being Carly Taylor-S (i can't spell her name) public relations at Origin
[14:21:46] <Gandalf> ah...I see
[14:21:53] <Gandalf> so it seems it's ok with them?
[14:22:20] <Colourless> it appears so.
[14:22:36] <Gandalf> well, Origin is not the ditributor...
[14:22:55] <Colourless> Origin is the IP owner
[14:23:46] <Gandalf> hmm...I don't know how Westood and EA are related
[14:24:05] <zx64> I thought EA owns ww?
[14:24:13] <Colourless> it does
[14:24:18] <Gandalf> I wonder if the IP of C&C is owned by Westood or ea
[14:24:45] <Gandalf> zx64: so virgin owned ww first?
[14:25:06] <Gandalf> isn't it the same relation as Apogee and ID?
[14:25:37] <Gandalf> (which unfortunately doesn't exsist anymore)
[14:25:44] <Colourless> there's no relation between Apogee and ID
[14:26:17] <Gandalf> there was...there's a big article on their history
[14:26:50] <Gandalf> I'm trying to say that it could be the same situation
[14:27:01] <Colourless> i'm not exactly sure how EA became to own westwood. I think that westwood got bought be Virgin (i.e. wasn't originally owned by Virgin), which then sold Westwood to EA
[14:27:41] <zx64> Gandalf: I think you were thinking of Apogee and 3d realms
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[14:28:05] <comrad> hi guys!
[14:28:05] <Gandalf> zx64: that's more or less the same company
[14:28:10] <Gandalf> yo Colourless
[14:28:11] <Colourless> Apogee is 3d realms
[14:28:17] <Gandalf> yo comrad I meant :)
[14:28:24] <comrad> hehe
[14:28:38] <zx64> guys, when did I say, "Lets take over #exult" ? :)
[14:29:00] <comrad> *g*
[14:29:02] <Colourless> just try it. :)
[14:29:09] <Gandalf> we're getting off topic here :)
[14:29:17] <comrad> look here : <zx64> hey, lets take over #exult!
[14:29:18] <comrad> *g*
[14:29:28] <zx64> hehe, you lie like a cheap matress
[14:29:39] <comrad> *g*
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[14:29:47] <Gandalf> Btw: that article is really interessting, with pics, and screenshots and stuff. Pretty cool
[14:29:56] <Gandalf> "the creation of commander keen"
[14:30:32] <Gandalf> wondefull...Now Tim has to join as well :)
[14:31:05] <zx64> 28.8Kbps from sweeden to the states probably isn't that much fun :)
[14:31:08] <Colourless> gee. it's getting kind of full here
[14:31:27] <zx64> how about you guys join #freecnc? :)
[14:31:33] <zx64> /join #freecnc.. oh wait
[14:31:33] <Gandalf> :))
[14:31:44] <zx64> I'm already there
[14:31:52] <comrad> hehe
[14:32:22] <Gandalf> aaarghh!!...
[14:33:01] <Colourless> you screamed because?
[14:33:08] <Gandalf> this PC is a p2-333/64 and it can't even play mp3's without "hicking
[14:33:15] <Gandalf> when opening a window...
[14:33:20] <comrad> lol
[14:33:26] <Colourless> ouch.
[14:33:27] <Gandalf> yes...this is a windows PC (my parents PC)
[14:33:29] <comrad> my p90 does very well ;)
[14:33:46] <Gandalf> comrad: I'm sure it doesn't run an MS OS :P
[14:33:54] <comrad> it runs openbsd :)
[14:34:02] <Colourless> ha, my Athlon 1000 laughs at you :)
[14:34:04] <comrad> but with windows it should be fine too
[14:34:32] <Gandalf> Colourless: I'll have a TB@800 + 512MB soon :P
[14:34:32] <zx64> Colourless: hmm... perhaps if you had a 1.5Ghz and another gig of ram you could run GNOME ...
[14:34:39] <comrad> hehe
[14:34:59] <zx64> <---- Gnome basher for the hell of it
[14:35:10] <comrad> kde2 freak
[14:36:54] <Colourless> I'm with the dark side, i use Windows 2000 :)
[14:38:06] <zx64> how many "GET /default.ida?XXXXXXXX..." do you get?
[14:38:18] <comrad> this is code-red right?
[14:38:50] <zx64> yeah (second varient)
[14:38:59] <Colourless> none as far as I know. Don't have port 80 open.
[14:39:16] <comrad> and what the heck is default.ida?
[14:39:51] <Gandalf> http://www.3drealms.com/keenhistory/index.html
[14:40:11] <Colourless> no idea
[14:40:14] <Gandalf> read it, learn it, live it! :)
[14:40:26] <zx64> Colourless: hehe
[14:40:39] <Colourless> i will not reread such things :)
[14:40:58] <zx64> perhaps if you'd typo'd it to "no ida"..
[14:41:21] <Gandalf> Colourless: have you read it already then?
[14:41:29] <Colourless> yes :)
[14:41:44] <Gandalf> I think it was a pretty cool article :)
[14:42:11] <Colourless> it was
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[14:45:50] <zx64> wb
[14:45:53] <Fingolfin> woho, folks, what is going on here? ;)
[14:45:59] <Fingolfin> thx
[14:46:06] <Fingolfin> you got a bit offtopc it seems, hm? ;)
[14:46:07] <Colourless> they are attempting to take over the channel
[14:46:13] <zx64> noooooo!
[14:46:25] * Fingolfin points out to Colourless that there are only two ops in here...
[14:46:44] * Colourless deops both to prove a point
[14:46:46] <Fingolfin> damn ;)
[14:47:03] <Fingolfin> ;)
[14:47:07] <Colourless> :)
[14:47:13] <comrad> offtopic? there is no topic, so how could we get offtopic? *g*
[14:47:14] <Fingolfin> anyway, what are you guys going to do, or what did you already do?
[14:47:35] <zx64> take off and nuke the site from orbit. it's the only way to be sure
[14:47:53] <Colourless> that's pretty extreme don't you think ;-)
[14:48:25] --- Fingolfin has changed the topic to: Exult, the open source Ultima 7 and U7 part 2 engine
[14:49:02] <Fingolfin> I wish chanserv would work right and properly do the topic retention
[14:49:59] <Colourless> yeah
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[14:56:39] <unreal> question for the crowd:
[14:56:46] <Colourless> hi
[14:56:55] <unreal> hey there.
[14:57:12] <unreal> first, exult is way cool.
[14:57:35] <unreal> but, i'm having a bit of trouble with it.
[14:57:49] <unreal> i can get it to run for a while.
[14:58:03] <unreal> it may crash, so i run it again, and so on.
[14:58:26] <unreal> after a big crash, it doesn't want to run again (ever).
[14:58:52] <unreal> so i reinstall it. change some stuff and pray.
[14:59:03] <Colourless> hmmm, odd
[14:59:05] <unreal> at the moment, i can't get it to run anymore.
[14:59:14] <Colourless> what happens if you try?
[14:59:29] <unreal> it doesn't even make it to the splash screen.
[14:59:41] <unreal> just a box that hangs.
[15:00:01] <Colourless> even after you restart your computer
[15:00:09] <unreal> many, many times.
[15:00:21] <Colourless> that is strange.
[15:00:24] <unreal> (win 98 se)
[15:00:49] <Colourless> are you sure you haven't caught a virus. that is very unusual behaviour
[15:01:17] <unreal> i was using the last official build all yesterday until it died completely
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[15:01:40] <unreal> then this moning i got the most recent build and it worked again.
[15:01:47] <unreal> now it is dead too.
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[15:03:50] <Colourless> it sounds like something else is causing a problem on your system
[15:04:44] <unreal> i thought that it may be direct draw.
[15:04:53] <unreal> i had just upgraded to 8.0 recently.
[15:05:25] <unreal> after i got the upgrade to 8.0a it started working again.
[15:05:37] <unreal> but, as you can see, it has died again.
[15:06:23] <unreal> how common are crashes on win98?
[15:06:49] <Colourless> no more common than any other port
[15:07:26] <unreal> oh well, i'll see if i come up with anything, if so i'll let you know. thanks.
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[15:35:42] <zx64> later..
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[15:37:31] <Gandalf> see ya
[15:37:34] <Gandalf> bye
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[16:18:59] <Fingolfin> Is there a specific reason we would not want to #include config.h in all files? I think we should, no? would take me a few secods to fix unix Makefiles to do it...
[16:19:02] <Fingolfin> hmm
[16:19:08] <Fingolfin> that is, only for gcc I assume... grmbl
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[17:44:29] <wjp> hi
[17:44:34] <Colourless> hi
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[18:53:01] <fingolfin> hi
[18:53:13] <Colourless> hi
[19:08:11] <Kefka> OH MY GOD!
[19:08:12] <Kefka> How shall we survive without a web page update?
[19:08:14] <Kefka> lol
[19:08:19] <Colourless> :)
[19:08:41] <fingolfin> ;))))
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[19:24:10] <^miguel^-> Hi
[19:24:54] <Kefka> hello
[19:25:14] <fingolfin> hi ^miguel^
[19:25:36] <wjp> hi
[19:25:42] <Colourless> hi
[19:28:01] <Kefka> brb
[19:28:08] <-- Kefka has left IRC (Read error to Kefka[cc51780-a.warn1.mi.home.com]: Connection reset by peer)
[19:34:03] --> Kefka has joined #exult
[19:42:05] --- fingolfin is now known as Fingolfin|away
[19:50:50] <-- ^miguel^- has left IRC (Visit http://www.arianne.cx !)
[19:56:24] <Colourless> time to go
[19:56:37] <-- Colourless has left IRC (time's up)
[20:15:57] --- Fingolfin|away is now known as Fingolfin
[20:23:31] <wjp> I'm leaving too
[20:23:33] <wjp> good night
[20:23:40] <-- wjp has left IRC ([x]chat)
[21:23:51] <chimera|wookin> who disturbs my rest?
[21:31:16] <Fingolfin> nobody
[21:31:21] * Fingolfin goes back to his plum cake
[21:35:34] * chimera|wookin narrows eyes suspiciously at Fingolfin
[21:37:14] * Fingolfin doesnīt see that as he is busy eating his plum cake
[22:01:33] <-- Fingolfin has left IRC (Client Exiting)
[23:29:47] <-- chimera|wookin has left IRC (So many rubes in this world who need to be dealt with ... and I don't have time to do the dealing. http://www.rubecity.com)