#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 23 Feb 2010 (GMT)

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[00:01:19] <Kirben> Are you still having Windows installer issue? that should have bene fixed after my last changes.
[00:01:38] <Malignant_Manor> It works in 9x but not NT.
[00:02:06] <Malignant_Manor> Tested in Win 95, XP, and Windows 7
[00:04:27] <Kirben> The Windows installer seems to work fine under Windows XP, it only reads/saves settings to profile directory under Windows NT4+ now.
[00:05:08] <Dominus> did the snapshot from earlier today contain the fix?
[00:06:23] <Dominus> because with that one it failed for me on XP, W7 (and Wine :))
[00:07:08] <Kirben> Yes, how exactly did it fail?
[00:07:20] <Dominus> it did not create an exult.cfg
[00:07:29] <Colourless> i am *so* glad i'm not having anything to do with this
[00:07:35] * Colourless evil grins
[00:07:53] * Dominus slaps colourless around with an empty exult.cfg
[00:08:16] <Colourless> i didn't write it... well that is because it no one wrote it at all...
[00:09:30] <Kirben> ah, looks like Exult sub directory isn't created by the Windows installer, if it doesn't already exist.
[00:10:27] <Malignant_Manor> That's the problem.
[00:11:04] <Malignant_Manor> I created a blank exult directory and it worked.
[00:11:37] <Malignant_Manor> Also, change the cvs to svn please.
[00:14:59] <Malignant_Manor> Like Dominus mentioned earlier, it would be nice to add a start menu command to edit the cfg file.
[00:16:01] <Malignant_Manor> With this latest problem figured out, were there any known recently introduced bugs left?
[00:16:04] <Dominus> exult runs nicely on Wine :)
[00:16:20] <Marzo> lol
[00:16:26] <Malignant_Manor> I don't think I got ES to play nicely.
[00:16:44] <Malignant_Manor> The very slim amount of time I played with it.
[00:17:07] * Marzo suddenly wonders about creating a SDL <-> Allegro wrapper and compile Exult for DOS using DJGPP
[00:18:47] <Kirben> Should be fixed in the current Windows snapshot (just updated).
[00:18:48] <Malignant_Manor> I wonder if you would have the mouse issues I had when I uses HXDOS Extender.
[00:20:41] <Dominus> hmm, adding a link to the startmenu to edit the exult.cfg is not as easy it seems.
[00:20:58] <Dominus> passing the local appdata path along is not really working on xp
[00:22:35] <Malignant_Manor> The installer is confirmed to create the directory and write the cfg file now in XP.
[00:24:11] <Kirben> Most options can be control via GUI in Exult, I don't think it is a good idea to add edit config.cfg option to Start Menu.
[00:24:57] <Dominus> that is true on the one hand, on the other it is not that easy to navigate to the new location...
[00:25:16] <Dominus> well that's for the document guy to document properly then :)
[00:26:27] <Colourless> Start->Run->%APPDATA% <enter>
[00:26:43] <Dominus> nope, wrong directory :)
[00:26:55] <Dominus> you want %local appdata%
[00:27:06] <Dominus> but that isn't set on XP by default
[00:27:07] <Colourless> %LOCALAPPDATA% then
[00:27:31] <Dominus> shell:local appdata works, though :)
[00:28:13] <Colourless> well its up do you to indicate what you need to use in what OS to access it ;-)
[00:28:15] <Colourless> its your JOB!
[00:28:24] <Dominus> :)
[00:28:39] <Dominus> :P
[00:28:47] <Kirben> Also the config file location is different on Windows 9x/ME, and will depend on what updates are installed in some cases.
[00:29:35] <Dominus> also true, already giving in :)
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[00:30:09] <Malignant_Manor> Marzo, the latest release of QTTabBar causes the back button to not work properly. Thanks for the link and I'll try another release later.
[00:30:27] <Kirben> How large can Ultima7's save game get? file size wise.
[00:31:16] <Dominus> I have one at 410kb
[00:32:25] <Dominus> but I think that was still unzipped (dated april 2001)
[00:32:46] <Dominus> largest zipped one is 240
[00:32:48] <Malignant_Manor> 460k on SI BG Merge gamedat.
[00:33:33] <Marzo> 480KiB in Keyring gamedat
[00:33:58] <Kirben> ok, as long as we aren't storing too much in profile area. We don't want roaming users having to sync are large amounts of data, due to using local app data (over app data).
[00:35:39] <Marzo> Malignant_Manor: can you give more details on this bug?: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2838846&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[00:36:41] <Malignant_Manor> click on gameplay options>background
[00:36:42] <Dominus> marzo: shouldn't exult now use local/exult/game/patch instead of pathtogame/patch?
[00:37:31] <Malignant_Manor> You'll see that the first option from disabled will stick out about 20 pixes.
[00:38:13] <Marzo> Dominus: aye
[00:38:35] <Marzo> But that is a documentation issue, isn't it :-p
[00:39:53] <Dominus> no, I mean, with mods it doesn't even look in pathtogame/mods, for patches it looks in pathtogame/patches
[00:39:55] <Colourless> save games according to microsofts development advise should be stored in My Documents/My Games/Saved Games
[00:40:44] <Marzo> Colourless: I was afraid you would say something like this...
[00:41:00] <Colourless> feel free to ignore that
[00:41:06] <Marzo> Do they say anything about location of screenshots too?
[00:41:06] <Colourless> not like we are a GFW app :-)
[00:41:30] <Marzo> True
[00:42:01] <Malignant_Manor> My Documents\My Pictures\exult
[00:42:13] <Malignant_Manor> More documentation for Dominus.
[00:42:23] <Dominus> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[00:42:31] <Malignant_Manor> Let's see how far spread out we can make it.
[00:43:19] <Colourless> my music for exult music!
[00:43:52] <Malignant_Manor> What about sfx?
[00:47:01] <Dominus> Seriously marzo, on the patch issue, is it on purpose that it behaves differently than mods?
[00:47:05] <Colourless> as an example, Biowares Masseffect 1/2 and Dragon Age store all their user data in My Documents\Bioware\GameName. Have other games though that spread things across the various dirs too
[00:47:23] <Colourless> its really inconsistent all round
[00:47:30] <Marzo> Dominus: `shell:local appdata\Exult` opens the correct folder in XP too
[00:47:42] <Marzo> It should behave the same
[00:47:47] <Marzo> I will look at it
[00:48:41] <Dominus> Dominus: `shell:local appdata\Exult` opens the correct folder in XP too <- I know, I posted that earlier, just the %local appdata% doesn't work in XP
[00:49:29] <Marzo> ah, right
[00:49:49] <Marzo> XP doesn't set that env var
[00:50:50] <Dominus> kirben, installer tested on XP and W7, worked fine in both now
[00:57:32] <Marzo> Malignant_Manor: fixed the bugs you linked to earlier; Dominus: fixed behavior of default patch dir
[00:57:41] <Malignant_Manor> Weather pixel effects (rain, snow) have been screwed up for some time now in all scalers. OpenGL doesn't even show it at all.
[00:58:18] <Malignant_Manor> That would probably be a good one to fix before release.
[00:59:10] <Marzo> Particularly since there are some sprite shapes that could be used for that purpose
[00:59:29] <Malignant_Manor> Relevant tracker is http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2912644&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[01:02:14] <Dominus> (opengl is still buggy on os x, but so are different other things in the graphics department)
[01:02:25] * Dominus is tired, and goes to bed now
[01:02:44] <Colourless> opengl is not officially supported!
[01:02:56] <Malignant_Manor> Yes it is
[01:02:59] <Colourless> !!!! for extra emphasis
[01:03:21] * Colourless runs away
[01:03:41] <Marzo> It is working well enough now that Kirben has it enabled by default in the Windows snapshots
[01:03:44] <Malignant_Manor> Marzo's spent a decent amount of time fixing things and Kirben has it built by default in Windows..
[01:04:01] <Marzo> Dominus: good night
[01:04:35] <Dominus> good night, tomorrow I'll see about setting up the other VMs
[01:04:59] <Dominus> oh, one more thing, didn't you really think about using the my pictures/exult for screenshots?
[01:05:22] <Marzo> Not really, no
[01:05:42] <Marzo> It would require also paying attention to My Games\Saved Games or whatever
[01:05:53] <Dominus> let's not look that way...
[01:06:19] <Dominus> nighty night
[01:06:25] <Marzo> When it comes to being forced to do that or drop Windows support, I'll chose the latter :-)
[01:06:34] <Dominus> :)
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[01:14:07] <Malignant_Manor> Are you still against an Exult Studio release?
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[01:24:19] <Marzo> Malignant_Manor: Yes
[01:28:50] <Malignant_Manor> I just wanted to double check because I'm looking at the tracker.
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[03:31:51] <Malignant_Manor> This tracker item should already be fixed. http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2770616&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[04:05:39] <Malignant_Manor> I've added a patch to the tracker that fixes a few schedule bugs. https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2957036&group_id=2335&atid=302335
[04:12:04] <Marzo> The problem with tracker item #2770616 is that I have no idea what is causing it
[04:17:28] <Malignant_Manor> I said it should already be fixed.
[04:17:44] <Malignant_Manor> So, it should be able to be closed.
[04:18:39] <Marzo> Oh, got it
[04:19:43] <Marzo> I applied that patch you sent
[04:23:01] <Malignant_Manor> This is a quick discussion about the previously fixed bug. (if you're curious. It also makes it easier to track down when you fixed it.) http://exult.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=331993&t=331969
[04:27:04] <Malignant_Manor> Do guards check for the 'Can't yell' flag?
[04:27:49] <Malignant_Manor> This is for a goblin calling guards. http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2798881&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[04:29:25] <Marzo> That thing actually seems to be hard-coded in the originals
[04:30:05] <Malignant_Manor> This is a bug that will likely screw up most people's games.
[04:33:11] <Marzo> Hm. Should goblins call goblin guards or no guards at all?
[04:35:10] <Malignant_Manor> I don't know if we should add anything like that.
[04:35:57] <Malignant_Manor> Maybe ask other people's opinions.
[04:39:38] <Malignant_Manor> There's also a few notebook related bugs. One chokes up all my cpu and makes me have to kill Exult with task manager after a decent while of trying to get it open and navigate with extreme lag due to no processing power.
[04:44:55] <Malignant_Manor> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2838851&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[04:45:23] <Malignant_Manor> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2838850&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[04:46:03] <Malignant_Manor> Also, the notebook doesn't seem to detect when to stop writing and will go way off the page.
[04:46:32] <Malignant_Manor> None of these are really important except the crash.
[04:49:04] <Malignant_Manor> Save file for BG with good testing area of notebook. https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=2335&atid=102335&file_id=364029&aid=2838851
[04:52:00] <Malignant_Manor> The notebook usually crashes without any other issues in the first case, but it has caused the huge cpu hogging.
[04:53:13] <Malignant_Manor> Best way to reproduce the crash is to just open the notebook in the save provided and drag to the top or bottom of the screen as far as you can.
[04:56:31] <Malignant_Manor> The top is best since you only need to drag it a little bit. This occurs in XP.
[05:02:01] <Malignant_Manor> screenshot of notebook text being displayed on the sides of the notebook (outside of the gump). https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=2335&atid=102335&file_id=364032&aid=2838850
[05:02:47] <Malignant_Manor> The best way to reproduce this is to use that same save game in a low resolution. Then just drag the notebook to the left or right.
[05:07:22] <Marzo> Bugs fixed
[05:07:59] <Malignant_Manor> All three notebook plus the goblin calling guards?
[05:08:02] <Marzo> Except for text width of notebook
[05:08:21] <Marzo> Two of the notebook bugs were fixed by preventing it from being dragged :-)
[05:08:35] <Malignant_Manor> Cheater
[05:08:59] <Malignant_Manor> masking the problem instead of fixing it
[05:10:29] <Marzo> Actually, there is little reason for dragging the notebook
[05:10:49] <Malignant_Manor> Unless using the text in it for a screenshot
[05:11:22] <Marzo> Besides, it would be a pain to determine when text should stop being drawn
[05:11:26] <Malignant_Manor> Or moving it to type in something you see in Exult
[05:11:57] <Malignant_Manor> Here's something I've been curious about. http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2805775&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[05:12:27] <Malignant_Manor> It's the party formation. It's been forced to yes for testing for years now.
[05:13:15] <Malignant_Manor> Shouldn't it be able to be changed between the exult way and the original formation?
[05:15:02] <Malignant_Manor> I'm not really sure about anything else that should or needs to be addressed before releasing.
[05:15:54] <Marzo> Fixed
[05:16:25] <Marzo> I am not sure it is a wise thing, though; the old non-formation code might be so out of synch that it could cause issues
[05:17:24] <Malignant_Manor> Well, plenty of time for testing. Both games should be run through before releasing.
[05:17:33] <Marzo> Aye
[05:17:41] <Marzo> And I ought to run to bed now
[05:17:56] <Malignant_Manor> Goodnight
[05:18:38] <Marzo> (these new fixes in particular should see quite some test)
[05:18:55] <Malignant_Manor> Weather and formation?
[05:20:43] <Marzo> And the guard spawning in SI
[05:21:05] <Marzo> And let me know what you think of the new rain effect
[05:21:15] <Malignant_Manor> I have to compile again to test.
[05:21:34] <Malignant_Manor> Hopefully it just needs cleaned and complies file.
[05:24:03] <Malignant_Manor> egg.cc undefined reference to vtable for Rain_effect
[05:25:34] <Malignant_Manor> Well, don't want to keep you staying up for this. It's not a big deal even if it doesn't compile tonight anyway.
[05:26:03] <Marzo> Yeah, you have to delete egg.o
[05:26:08] <Marzo> And a few others
[05:26:21] <Malignant_Manor> I just cleaned it out and restarted.
[05:26:58] <Kirben> Windows snapshot was just updated again, if you are still on Windows.
[05:27:52] <Malignant_Manor> That was fast.
[05:34:32] <Malignant_Manor> So far, the weather effects aren't looking too bad. The one with a big blue area of water looks a bit strange to me.
[05:34:57] <Marzo> What big blue area of water?
[05:36:31] <Malignant_Manor> It was rain with some multi blue pixels and some single pixel whites.
[05:36:52] <Marzo> The standard "rain", you mean
[05:37:26] <Malignant_Manor> Yeah, it's probably just me.
[05:37:34] <Marzo> I thought that those "multi-blue" pixels gave a good representation, within the engine, of the drops hitting the ground
[05:38:01] <Malignant_Manor> Snow looks pretty nice.
[05:38:47] <Marzo> The last remaining is the magic sparkling dust from Kissme
[05:38:50] <Malignant_Manor> Sparkle looks plain.
[05:39:06] <Malignant_Manor> But I can't even remember how it looks in the original.
[05:39:17] <Marzo> Pretty much like that, actually
[05:39:29] <Marzo> (I compared in DOSBox)
[05:39:51] <Marzo> The only major difference really is in the "splash" in normal rain
[05:40:32] <Marzo> (and the fact that every rain drop is based on shape 0 of sprites.vga)
[05:43:05] <Marzo> Well, anyway I am off to bed
[05:43:08] <Marzo> Good night
[05:43:14] <Malignant_Manor> Goodnight.
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[11:24:09] <Dominus> installing Windows 9x is really painful… One of the things I forgot about those OS'
[12:25:05] <Dominus> why oh why did ms have to make the installation process so complicated, or better why do i need to enter stuff all the time. Ask all the necessary stuff once and then install the stuff with this information…. How hard can it be....
[12:25:37] * Dominus is just grumpy after installing Windows 98, 98SE, ME and W2k in a row...
[12:26:51] <wjp> well, they _did_ figure it out eventually ;-)
[12:28:32] <Dominus> yeah… it's kind of fun to see the improvements when installing them in a row… Vmware does take over some of the pains when installing W2k, though :)
[12:34:12] <Dominus> puh, now letting ME update all its stuff and then i'll have to see how to transfer the files to the vmware images, since the W9xes don't support shared folders...
[12:34:26] <Dominus> and all that after the dentist… :(
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[14:11:59] <Malignant_Manor> Toggling full screen with the OpenGL scaler causes the screen to stop displaying properly in Win XP.
[14:13:56] <Malignant_Manor> One example is turning the entire screen black or orange and not being able to see the menus at all when they are opened.
[14:35:42] <Marzo> Aye
[14:36:07] <Marzo> I am thinking of suggesting Kirben to leave OpenGL from the release, as it still has many bugs
[14:37:50] <Malignant_Manor> The savegame menu is causing crashes for it now.
[14:40:07] <Malignant_Manor> Sometimes it is crashing right away. Other times it opens it but the screen shot isn't displaying right.
[14:40:43] <Malignant_Manor> For windows, I'm not sure what bugs there are for OpenGL besides those two.
[14:41:55] <Malignant_Manor> Didn't the ones listed get fixed? http://exult.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=331451&t=331006
[14:42:38] <Marzo> All but letter boxing, which I couldn't reproduce
[14:46:23] <Malignant_Manor> I see it now. It is black instead of white so it doesn't really show up anymore.
[14:49:16] <Malignant_Manor> Set the resolution to 320x240 (any non native may work). When you get into the Black Gate menu, move the mouse to the top or bottom.
[14:49:33] <Malignant_Manor> The very top or bottom will leave mouse pointer artifacts.
[14:49:48] <Malignant_Manor> This is a pretty insignificant bug.
[14:50:03] <Marzo> I just fixed the OpenGL screenshot bug
[14:50:09] <Malignant_Manor> Especially now that the border is black instead of white.
[14:50:11] <Marzo> Will be committing shortly
[14:50:55] <Malignant_Manor> I agree with 'Exult.cfg contains absolute paths on Win32' http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2957048&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[14:51:04] <Marzo> I already fixed it
[14:51:08] <Marzo> Commit on the way
[14:51:19] <Marzo> (after I write the changelog)
[14:52:02] <Malignant_Manor> Does it write a variable for shell:local appdata?
[14:52:45] <Marzo> Exult simply won't write the default paths to Exult.cfg
[14:53:22] <Malignant_Manor> Wouldn't adding that variable be useful for the mod configuration files?
[14:53:23] <Marzo> Given that the values are generated *once* at the beginning, it won't make too much of a difference
[14:53:39] <Marzo> That is technically not a variable, it is a command
[14:53:59] <Marzo> (Try it: Start->Run->shell:local appdata)
[14:54:34] <Marzo> Mod configuration files already have two "path macros": __MODS__ and __MOD_PATH__
[14:54:40] <Malignant_Manor> Yeah, but exult doesn't exult have a similar function written into the code.
[14:54:52] <Marzo> The first expands to the mods dir, the second expands to the mod's dir
[14:55:27] <Marzo> For its internal paths, yes; it would, however, wreak havoc in a xml file
[14:56:07] <Marzo> (it has angled brackets which have to be escaped on write and unescaped on read)
[14:57:05] <Malignant_Manor> Mods currently aren't truly per multiple users unless you copy the entire folder into your local user space because of the gamedat file.
[14:57:15] <Malignant_Manor> If I understand correctly.
[14:57:43] <Malignant_Manor> Do mods have a gamedat path variable?
[14:59:17] <Marzo> They are stored by default under the local appdata dir
[14:59:38] <Malignant_Manor> Mods should default to the user app location if patch, savegame, and gamedat are not specified.
[15:00:25] <Marzo> They default to be in the same point in the directory tree as the patch and gamedat dirs
[15:01:52] <Marzo> I preferred to put mods and patches in user-writable directories because of ES; having to run ES elevated (or with sudo) just to edit a mod is not something I particularly care about
[15:02:21] <Marzo> Moreover, unlike the original game data, mods are largely dependent on the user -- some will like some mods, others won't
[15:06:25] <Malignant_Manor> Well, mods could be shared if in the game directory.
[15:07:01] <Marzo> Too much trouble at the moment
[15:07:03] <Malignant_Manor> And the default save, gamedat, and patch paths directed to the user directory.
[15:07:07] <Malignant_Manor> Ah
[15:07:38] <Marzo> What you just said is actually contradictory
[15:08:13] <Marzo> Because for consistency, the mod's patch dir should also be directed to the user directory
[15:09:14] <Marzo> (but in any event, the point about ES trumps any sharing of mods)
[15:10:09] <Malignant_Manor> Yeah, I was forgetting that the mods themselves don't have a separate patch.
[15:10:49] <Malignant_Manor> Well, to separate the default data from the user edited.
[15:10:54] <Marzo> The fixes are committes
[15:11:13] <Marzo> That would be annoying for modders
[15:11:15] <Marzo> brb, afk
[15:21:21] <Dominus> To chirp in, just remember that thinking of multiple users sharing the same computer AND sharing the same interest for Exult/U7 is a nice thought
[15:22:30] <Dominus> BUT in reality it is normally just one user, one user on the computer and in the slight chance of more than one user on the computer the chances are even smaller that these users share their love for Exult/U7
[15:22:51] <Dominus> Those few can be helped by adjusting paths in exult.cfg
[15:24:51] <Dominus> as for the bug about absolute paths, I was not ABLE to use the %local appdata% variable on XP in any way. It just doesn't use it. The only thing it cares for is the "shell:local appdata" command
[15:30:17] <Marzo> Back
[15:30:43] <Marzo> It doesn't exist in XP
[15:31:14] <Marzo> (it would have been %LOCALAPPDATA% if it existed, as you can't have spaces in env variable names)
[15:31:41] <Marzo> For a list of all env vars, you can go into a command prompt and run "set"
[15:33:16] <Marzo> brb, rebooting for update
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[15:36:24] <Malignant_Manor> One thing I didn't mention earlier is this link, because it seems like a driver or hardware problem with sdl. http://log.usecode.org/exultlog.php?log=4Jan2010
[15:37:26] <Malignant_Manor> Dominus could reproduce it on his Mac. I could reproduce it with My Nvida card and at least one driver.
[15:39:04] <Marzo> I could horribly crash X by trying to switch to fullscreen once...
[15:39:47] <Malignant_Manor> With what conditions?
[15:40:09] <Marzo> It was 320x200 at 2x
[15:40:22] <Marzo> (my monitor is widescreen, FYI)
[15:40:30] <Marzo> It was with OpenGL
[15:41:10] <Marzo> (actually, it just crashed the display manager; but the only way to fix it was to restart X)
[15:41:44] <Malignant_Manor> Yeah, maybe have a box that says cannot change when running (or something to that effect).
[15:42:11] <Malignant_Manor> That is, if you cannot fix it or don't want to for the release.
[15:42:25] <Dominus> As malignant found out the SDL_HWPalette or something is the bad boy or so, when you set the resolution of Exult to 640x480, THEN it switches to fullscreen
[15:43:30] <Malignant_Manor> Well, this is something different Dominus than what we talked about in the link.
[15:43:53] <Malignant_Manor> Unless, it is somehow related.
[15:44:30] <Marzo> I tried switching to fullscreen with Exult running
[15:44:47] <Dominus> I guess it is related, the other os x guy recently could confirm the non-switching to fullscreen unless res set to 640x480
[15:45:26] <Dominus> both XP and W7 VMs have problems too. I need to install exult first on the W9x VMs to test them there
[15:46:38] <Marzo> It is possible that these low "widescreen" resolutions aren't well supported
[15:46:47] <Marzo> (in modern hardware, I mean)
[15:47:22] <Malignant_Manor> The funny thing is, that if I changed a flag, it worked.
[15:47:39] <Malignant_Manor> It still had issues on his Mac.
[15:48:42] <Malignant_Manor> My comment was>> if ( SDL_VideoModeOK(w, h, bpp, flags) ) seems to not think that fullscreen is allowed.
[15:50:40] <Dominus> I *think* the color problem is a different one, it is present regardless whether switching to fullscreen on runtime works or doesn't
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[15:52:20] <Marzo> Well, even switching resolution first didn't help and I crashed the display anyway
[15:52:37] <Marzo> Let me see about HWPalette
[15:53:05] <Dominus> something is buggy there and it's all over the spectrum of supported OS :)
[15:53:11] <Dominus> bbl
[15:55:19] <Marzo> Meanwhile: any opinions on this: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2957051&group_id=2335&atid=352335
[15:56:11] <Marzo> (btw, this time it was with point scaler, not OpenGL)
[15:57:15] <Malignant_Manor> Leave uninstall for sure. It wouldn't be hard to add a shortcut selection section if shortcuts is checked.
[15:57:39] <Malignant_Manor> If a user wants all of them, they could just hit next.
[15:58:04] <Malignant_Manor> If they don't want them, they can uncheck them.
[15:58:53] <Malignant_Manor> Oh, that must be what screwed it up in Wine.
[15:59:04] <Malignant_Manor> When I tried to run it last night.
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[16:05:35] <Marzo> There went X again
[16:06:22] <Malignant_Manor> I wouldn't think you'd have issues with other scalers to that point.
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[16:38:08] <Marzo> Well, SDL_HWPALETTE (or the lack of it) makes no difference for me
[16:51:40] <Dominus> opinion on the tracker item: we could get rid of some of the items for a RELEASE. Changelog isn't necessary on release but nice for people who use the snapshots, copying isn't necessary. FAQ, ReadME, News, Readme.Win32 can all go IMO.
[16:52:25] <Dominus> As for putting the Exult link into the rootof the startmenu, that is IMO very bad form and on the new startmenu since XP really unncessary.
[16:52:44] <Dominus> And especially for W7 where you can'T switch to the classic start menu anymore
[16:54:18] <Dominus> On mode switching/scalers, the scaler that had problems for me were point/interlaced/scale2x
[16:54:43] <Dominus> the others worked fine, except for the windowed mode switching :)
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[17:06:09] <Marzo> So far, I had problems with all of them
[17:06:16] <Marzo> (in fullscreen)
[17:06:24] <Marzo> Except point 3x and point 4x
[17:06:47] <Marzo> (point 4x in 320x200 gives my monitor's native resolution)
[17:07:16] <Malignant_Manor> Any clues as to why this is happening yet?
[17:07:47] <Marzo> Nope
[17:08:08] <Marzo> Anyway, I'll be back later; have to take the car to repairs
[17:10:04] <Dominus> see you then :)
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[17:48:34] <Malignant_Manor> I'm really getting tired of Firefox crashing Windows.
[18:03:53] * Sevalecpp doesn't use windows ;D
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[18:34:44] <Marzo> And I am back
[18:44:38] <Marzo> DOSBox has the same fullscreen problems as Exult in my end
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[19:18:13] <Malignant_Manor> Do you think the problem has to do with SDL?
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[19:33:07] <Marzo> Probably not
[19:33:35] <rjohnson> re
[19:33:57] <Marzo> Star Wars: KotOR also crashes and burns when it tries to play video at 640x480 under Wine here
[19:34:56] <rjohnson> have you tried the options such as emulating the desktop or whatever its called where its not windowed and hosted in a simulated 640x480 environment
[19:35:36] <Marzo> With KotOR, yes; with Exult, no
[19:35:46] <Marzo> (a virtual desktop, you mean?)
[19:36:03] <rjohnson> ya, i forget what wine calls the option offhand and dont have my linux laptop handy
[19:37:01] <Marzo> Something that I just thought about: I am thinking that, as with local appdata, Exult might want to use common appdata by default to store game data (e.g., "common appdata\Exult\blackgate\static") and Exult/ES data (e.g., "common appdata\Exult\data\*")
[19:37:31] <Marzo> It is, of course, a thought
[19:38:15] <rjohnson> (in case my shot-in-the-dark comment wasnt clear, i didnt mean any random virtual desktop, was specifically referring to a wine option)
[19:39:17] <Marzo> You entered the room just after Malignant_Manor's last comment, where he was wondering if the fullscreen problem Exult and DOSBox are having are related to SDL
[19:39:18] <rjohnson> i've had varyin gdegress of success with wine depending on how it emulates the windowing/desktop
[19:39:56] <Marzo> This data being shared, and defaulting to a shared location, would finally allow Exult and ES to be installed to different locations and still work together
[19:40:23] <rjohnson> ah
[19:40:50] <Marzo> rjohnson: I was using KotOR as a counter-example of that notion :-)
[19:41:12] <Marzo> (but I had great success with getting KotOR to run in a virtual desktop, yes)
[19:41:41] <Marzo> (GLX for the win)
[19:43:03] <rjohnson> cool, i just dropped by because i've seen the exult project before and i was looking for random reverse engineering groups on freenode
[19:43:22] <rjohnson> i do professional reverse engineering in the software security industry
[19:44:49] <rjohnson> most freenode channels relevant to software security are lacking in the reverse engineering talent :)
[19:46:47] <Malignant_Manor> I think I have problems with some game in Wine with in 1280x1024.
[19:47:19] <Malignant_Manor> Well, without a virtual window.
[19:48:11] <Malignant_Manor> I think Half Life and KoTOR are two examples.
[19:48:43] <rjohnson> i pretty much only play 2d iso games anymore so i dont know much about wine and 3d
[19:49:11] <rjohnson> lately i've gone back to play jagged alliance 2 in my rare spurts of spare time
[19:49:25] <wjp> rjohnson: professional RE-ing? cool :-)
[19:49:47] <wjp> rjohnson: the most active of the RE'ed game engine channels I know here is #scummvm
[19:49:48] <rjohnson> RE/vulndev some automation of software analysis
[19:50:52] <rjohnson> i also run uninformed.org which has some articles on reversing windows internals
[19:52:56] <rjohnson> the only gaming related articles we've done are on battle.net and an intro to reversing that used minesweeper as a test app
[19:54:45] <wjp> I guess a large difference is that the code you're looking at 'actively' tries to confuse you (rather than just accidentally like some game engine code ;-) )
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[19:55:16] <rjohnson> indeed :)
[19:55:40] <rjohnson> i work on designing protections/mitigations as well as defeating them
[19:56:41] <rjohnson> we also have to do things like reverse file formats / protocols so theres quite a bit of overlap
[19:57:05] * wjp nods
[19:57:25] <wjp> often quite nice puzzles :-)
[19:58:07] <rjohnson> yeah, we assume everything we throw in a debugger or disassembler is potentially hostile. can be tedious but also adds motivation
[19:58:33] <rjohnson> i've been doing RE professionally for about 8 years now
[19:59:14] <rjohnson> are there conferences specific to game engine reversing?
[19:59:28] <wjp> hm, never encountered any, but also never looked
[19:59:40] <rjohnson> the security industry has a bunch. i have some of my past presentations on rjohnson.uninformed.org
[20:00:09] <wjp> yeah, I scan the occasional paper/presentation of creative hacks :-)
[20:00:22] <rjohnson> mostly its instructional material, but a few good gems in there
[20:03:55] <wjp> cool
[20:05:42] <wjp> hm, idastruct sounds like something I wish I'd have heard of 3 years ago :-)
[20:08:31] <Marzo> Indeed
[20:13:46] <rjohnson> it was just a quick hack. now i'm working on dataflow analysis type stuff which is the right way to approach that problem
[20:15:54] <wjp> any idea if hex-rays makes that easier? I haven't really read much about that yet
[20:16:26] <rjohnson> without symbols i'm not sure, with symbols ya
[20:16:52] <rjohnson> i havent tried hex-rays yet either, but i just switched jobs and they sent over a copy last week
[20:17:10] <wjp> ah, nice :-)
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[21:20:30] <Malignant_Manor> Enemies aren't attacking the Avatar once he is unconscious.
[21:30:56] <Marzo> That actually is happening for everyone
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[21:31:47] <Malignant_Manor> I've confirmed this Windows related bug and commented that it happens when Exult is in fullscreen mode. https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2885134&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[21:32:17] <Marzo> Enemies stop attacking if someone falls unconscious or dies; but maybe they should start attacking again if no awake enemies are around
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[21:34:17] <Malignant_Manor> Party members were also lagging to help. After party members are attacked, then enemies may attack the downed Avatar.
[21:35:21] <Malignant_Manor> The party members taking a long time to help attack is vs neutrals.
[21:36:38] <Malignant_Manor> I can't reproduce the 'Fade-in fails when reappearing in Paws after death' bug either.
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[21:42:41] <Marzo> brb
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[21:53:59] <Malignant_Manor> Is it possible to overwrite some in-hand offsets using Exult.flx and still have it editable with ES? There's one goblin shape in SI and cyclopses in both games that don't have them set properly.
[22:14:26] <Marzo> back
[22:16:14] <Marzo> It would require a custom format for WIHH
[22:16:55] <Marzo> (wihh is one of the few remaining files for which a full patch is required)
[22:17:59] <Marzo> wjp: are you still here?
[22:26:09] <Malignant_Manor> Ah, well goblins are are bug in the original. For some reason (probably a mod import) I misremembered cyclopses having clubs hanging out and being in the wrong spot.
[22:26:40] <Malignant_Manor> You can see it in the Fawn Tower that is taken over by them.
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[22:29:50] <Malignant_Manor> That seems out for the release then. Relevant tracker. I also commented that it is a bug in the original. https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2798863&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[22:30:24] <Malignant_Manor> Can you, as a project member, add files to someone else's tracker?
[22:33:30] <Marzo> Yes
[22:34:03] <Malignant_Manor> Actually, I should send you the file to put in SI Fixes too. I don't think you modified that data.
[22:40:13] <Malignant_Manor> Did the irc automatically send a message that you are away when I sent the file?
[22:41:43] <wjp> Marzo: yes
[22:42:08] <Marzo> Malignant_Manor: I got the file
[22:42:46] <Marzo> wjp: I have been thinking for a while now of replacing some portions of Exult with third-party, more robust code, and wanted to get your opinion on something
[22:42:52] <Marzo> (if you can help, that is)
[22:43:50] <Marzo> Specifically, I have been thinking of using Boost libraries, particularly for filesystem handling and interprocess communications
[22:44:29] <Marzo> (actually, now that I think about it, this question can go to Fingolfin and maybe Colourless)
[22:44:37] <Colourless> if its available for all os and compilers then maybe.
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[22:44:55] <Marzo> They try to be as portable as possible, actually
[22:45:50] <Fingolfin> they are quite portable, if you target desktop machines at least
[22:45:51] <Marzo> But I agree, it has to be looked at into with care
[22:45:59] <Fingolfin> windows / linux / Mac Os X
[22:46:19] <Marzo> Fingolfin: that is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to find out, yes
[22:46:31] <Fingolfin> if you want other devices, esp. fancy new things like smart phones, then I am less sure whether using boost is a good idea
[22:46:54] <Fingolfin> if ScummVM used Boost (and the Standard C++ lib, for that matter), it would run on half as many devices or less, I think :)
[22:47:06] <Marzo> Wow
[22:47:38] <Marzo> So maybe copying from ScummVM would be better in this regard...
[22:47:41] <Colourless> i think i'll defer to Fingolfin's opinions since he seems to know about the library
[22:48:05] <wjp> I'd prefer using code from pentagram of scummvm to using boost I think
[22:48:10] <wjp> s/of/or/
[22:48:26] <Marzo> Aye, this is more-or-less what I wanted to know
[22:48:41] <Marzo> (consensus, I mean)
[22:49:20] <Colourless> i'm all for stealing from scummvm :-)
[22:49:27] <Marzo> :-)
[22:50:17] <wjp> cabal here we come :-)
[22:50:49] <Marzo> lol
[22:52:03] <Marzo> One thing I might copy from Boost, if ScummVM doesn't implement it, is the overloading of operator/ for paths
[22:53:16] <Marzo> Hm. Which of the 3 ScummVM repositories is supposed to be the most recent? Or are they all supposed to be in synch?
[22:53:27] <wjp> heh, interesting; never saw that use of operator/ before :-)
[22:53:32] <wjp> 3 repos?
[22:54:24] <Marzo> It is an extremely original and interesting use as far as I am concerned :-)
[22:54:44] <Marzo> Aye, SF is listing SVN, Git and Mercurial as repos
[22:54:57] <Marzo> But looking into it, I see that only the SVN one is non-empty
[22:55:37] <wjp> ah, yes, SVN is the one you want
[22:56:01] <wjp> there's some form of half-consensus to move to git at some point, but no real hurry
[22:56:25] * Marzo remembers that he wants to lodge several complaints to the Web devs at SF
[22:56:56] <Marzo> (I mean, they managed to make the trackers a lot worse by not remembering settings...)
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[23:02:54] <Marzo> Kirben: given that you have some experience with the Win32 Exult installer, I want to ask about the feasibility of implementing something
[23:04:11] <Marzo> Specifically: I was wondering if it is possible to add pages to the installer that allow browsing for automated installation of BG and SI
[23:06:04] <Marzo> For example, a page could have a check to "Install from Ultima Collection CD", for example, which would ask the location of the CD and the installer (through the DLL backend, possibly) would copy the files to the appropriate dir and set Exult.cfg as appropriate
[23:07:01] <Marzo> s/,for example,/
[23:07:19] <Marzo> (this is just an idea I had today that would be nice for the release, if it is not too difficult to implement)
[23:08:07] <Kirben> I expect that would be possible, but that format of various release could vary, and the installation files are usually compressed.
[23:09:57] <Colourless> it should be possible
[23:10:50] <Marzo> The original floppies had multipart zip files, which shouldn't present a problem
[23:11:36] <Malignant_Manor> Gold editions are zipped.
[23:11:39] <Marzo> The CDs are usually uncompressed, requiring only a copy
[23:11:50] <Colourless> ultima collection cd is zipped
[23:11:57] <Colourless> complete ultima 7 is uncompressed
[23:12:03] <Marzo> Zips aren't too much of a problem
[23:12:11] <Colourless> exult can aloready unzip
[23:12:19] <Marzo> Exactly
[23:12:57] <Fingolfin> Marzo: please file bug reports with SF.net on that. They'll be definitely closed with a comment like "we discussed this with the web team, but the feature works as designed / expected / whatever" or "we decide to not fix this at this point" etc.
[23:12:57] <Marzo> And it would be simple to statically link libzip into the installer dll
[23:13:03] <Fingolfin> Marzo: (this is the reply I always get)
[23:13:16] <Fingolfin> Marzo: *but* if many many people report this, maybe they finally understand that they made their page a lot less usable
[23:13:41] <Marzo> Fingolfin: Indeed, I plan on doing exactly that
[23:14:07] <Fingolfin> they'll probably also tell you to file a feature quest instead, at their idea torrent
[23:14:09] <Marzo> (er... *zlib* not libzip)
[23:14:09] <Kirben> Is it really that difficult to install Ultima 7 though? this really seems overkill for the installer.
[23:14:13] <Fingolfin> haven't done that yet, but maybe somebody else did
[23:14:48] <Malignant_Manor> @Kirben, that's what I was thinking.
[23:15:00] <Malignant_Manor> Many people are dumb as hell though.
[23:15:15] <Marzo> Well, Malignant_Manor beat me to the punch :-)
[23:15:17] <Malignant_Manor> At least when it comes to this sort of thing.
[23:16:17] <Marzo> More seriously, it is just to simplify things for most users
[23:16:41] <Kirben> The Ultima Collection CD would be the most common I expect, and comes with a Windows installer. While most people on other systems (ie unix), should be able to handle an install.
[23:17:07] <Marzo> I am thinking more regarding the exult.cfg side
[23:17:34] <Marzo> (specifically, this bug report: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2957050&group_id=2335&atid=102335)
[23:18:15] <Marzo> It is a bit overkill, I agree, but it is the next best think to a built-in game finder in Exult
[23:18:37] <wjp> I can imagine an installer could make it easier to install from multi-part floppy archives, but I'm not sure if enough people have such versions to make it worth th effort
[23:19:11] <Marzo> No argument on the multi-part floppies here
[23:19:27] <Malignant_Manor> Computers don't even come with floppy drives anymore. Do they?
[23:19:44] <Marzo> You can buy USB floppy drives
[23:19:49] <Malignant_Manor> Yeah.
[23:20:12] <Kirben> Not that guy again, doesn't he have anything else to do but pick at extreme points? it won't occur with fresh install.
[23:20:13] <Marzo> But even if you still have those floppies, I doubt they still work
[23:20:36] <Marzo> I had more or less the same reaction :-)
[23:21:54] <Malignant_Manor> My floppies still work of all my games. Last I checked anyway.
[23:21:59] <Marzo> For the record: the Ultima Collection CD is *not* compressed
[23:22:21] <Malignant_Manor> My Complete Ultima 7 is.
[23:22:21] <Marzo> Malignant_Manor: and when was that, exactly?
[23:22:35] <Malignant_Manor> I can check a FoV disc in a sec.
[23:22:59] <Malignant_Manor> 96
[23:23:13] <Malignant_Manor> The label says 96 anyway.
[23:23:33] <Marzo> Believe me when I say they won't work if you try now :-)
[23:24:45] <Malignant_Manor> Oh, checking floppies.
[23:24:55] <Malignant_Manor> I thought you meant the cd.
[23:25:32] <wjp> just easy single zips on the complete U7, fortunately
[23:25:40] <Malignant_Manor> My FoV cd is from a Top 10 Pack.
[23:26:04] <Malignant_Manor> It uses multiple .cat files
[23:26:16] <Marzo> I am 3 for 3: Ultima Collection CD and 2 EA compilations all uncompressed
[23:30:07] <Kirben> Surely allowing paths to be set inside Exult in the future, would be better option? and cover not only Windows platform.
[23:30:22] <Marzo> It would, indeed
[23:31:24] <Malignant_Manor> How the heck does that scenario linked to happen?
[23:31:53] <Malignant_Manor> The cfg is written to the user app location.
[23:32:22] <Marzo> If I were to guess: about as often as the scenario I pointed out in a comment :-)
[23:33:02] <Malignant_Manor> It should be an impossible scenario when using the default build.
[23:33:36] <Malignant_Manor> If they choose to build it the old way, then it is their fault it doesn't work.
[23:37:05] <Colourless> if game paths are set globally (in program files\exult\exult.cfg), then if they were to be modified in exult, you'd need a UAC prompt and create an elevated process to do the change.
[23:38:08] <Colourless> setting the game paths per user would be annoying IMO
[23:38:22] <Colourless> though i don't know how things currently work
[23:38:30] <Malignant_Manor> It is already set per user.
[23:38:34] <Marzo> Currently, you have to more-or-less set it up per-user
[23:39:02] <Colourless> if i'm not mistaken
[23:39:17] <Colourless> you *could* setup a 'default' exult.cfg on install
[23:39:21] <Marzo> Unless the installer were to write the cfg to program files with the installed paths
[23:39:24] <Colourless> that gets used as the per user base
[23:39:35] <Colourless> exactly what i was thinking
[23:39:58] <Marzo> Indeed if there is an exult.cfg at the exe path, Exult automatically copies it to the user's profile
[23:40:08] <Marzo> (or ES, or ucxt...)
[23:40:44] <Marzo> So making a skeletal cfg with the game paths to act as a template would work
[23:41:13] <Marzo> This is what gave me the idea of having the installer "install" the original games which I described above
[23:41:50] <Marzo> (because people are just as likely to install Exult first, then the games, as they are to install the games first, then Exult)
[23:42:32] <Malignant_Manor> I think the sfx files should be asked for in the installer.
[23:42:51] <Marzo> I think they should be *mentioned*
[23:43:14] <Malignant_Manor> It would be nice to have a switch between the two in game.
[23:43:24] <Marzo> I thought about that too
[23:43:25] <Malignant_Manor> If both are present.
[23:43:55] <Marzo> Exult could detect if one of them is present and use it automatically
[23:44:11] <Marzo> And allow you to toggle between them
[23:44:32] <Marzo> (assuming you enable digital sfx, that is)
[23:44:40] <-- Fingolfin has left IRC (Quit: Fingolfin)
[23:45:36] <Kirben> Wouldn't setting global game path, go against the idea of profiles though? has anyone even mentioned that issue on other systems? where profiles have been long supported in Exult.
[23:45:57] <Marzo> Very true
[23:46:29] <Malignant_Manor> Well, they should be overwritten in the user cfg.
[23:46:39] <Malignant_Manor> If needed or just copied there.
[23:46:50] <Marzo> Not to mention that, as Dominus pointed out earlier, while it is nice to think of multiple users playing U7 in the same computer, it is far more likely that only one of them will ever do it
[23:47:12] <Malignant_Manor> or share the same user profile
[23:48:29] <Malignant_Manor> Last comment directed at users sharing a computer
[23:48:43] <Kirben> Yes, could even have a case, where userB doesn't have access to the location, where userA installed Ultima 7.
[23:49:04] <Marzo> That is precisely the comment I made :-)
[23:49:33] <Marzo> brb
[23:50:45] <Malignant_Manor> Whatever you do. No matter how simple, people will find a way to screw it up.