#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 24 Feb 2004 (GMT)

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[01:42:07] <WishStone> wee
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[02:51:18] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
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[03:43:34] <Sheng_Gradilla> Good evening, buddess :)
[03:43:36] <Sheng_Gradilla> :D
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[04:10:50] <Ranger> gaaaawd...
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[04:20:57] <Ranger> .......
[04:20:59] --- Ranger is now known as WishStone
[04:22:17] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[04:22:58] <Sheng_Gradilla> WishStone: I called you "buddy" in the exult forums, and you corrected me by saying you are actually a "buddess" :P
[04:24:18] <WishStone> Ahhhh!
[04:24:23] <WishStone> Good boy *feeds a treat* ;D
[04:24:34] <WishStone> As long as it's not a Buttess ;D
[04:25:11] <Sheng_Gradilla> O_o
[04:25:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> buttess? :D
[04:25:30] <WishStone> Though I have one and am sitting quite comfortly on it :P
[04:25:35] <Sheng_Gradilla> hey, that sounds nice
[04:27:10] <Sheng_Gradilla> purr again, please :)
[04:27:31] <WishStone> eer, whut? :P
[04:27:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> you always purr in the forums :D
[04:27:55] <WishStone> *LAUGHS!!*
[04:28:00] <WishStone> The TALKS I have this night...
[04:28:09] <WishStone> I should stay up till half past 5 more often :P
[04:28:24] <Sheng_Gradilla> what timezone are you in?
[04:28:35] <WishStone> CET
[04:28:40] <WishStone> Central European Time
[04:28:42] * WishStone is a Kraut
[04:28:57] <Sheng_Gradilla> I am on PST
[04:29:06] <Sheng_Gradilla> Pacific Standard Time
[04:29:24] <Sheng_Gradilla> GMT - 8:00
[04:29:56] <Sheng_Gradilla> it's 8:40 PM right now
[04:30:10] <WishStone> *nods*
[04:30:16] <WishStone> Know my way around in timezones...
[04:30:21] <WishStone> I run a UO Guild :P
[04:31:04] <Sheng_Gradilla> :D
[04:31:18] <Sheng_Gradilla> it has been more than a year since I last played UO
[04:31:36] <WishStone> Good! *always happy to see people gett of Ulti-Crack*
[04:32:06] <Sheng_Gradilla> I have my UOT2A, UOR, and UOTD CDs laying around somewhere
[04:33:05] <WishStone> yeeech, 3D
[04:33:28] <WishStone> though the t2a manual was good.. the city maps where excelent!
[04:34:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> I didn't like UOTD
[04:37:06] <WishStone> td was a nightmare... and sadly, with UO-AOS they took some td graphics (like that near-straved unicorn, and out them into the 2d client as well :\
[04:39:49] <Sheng_Gradilla> what I didn't like about UO:LBR is that the monster designer was the same from the Spawn comics
[04:40:13] <WishStone> No kidding... but then again, we simply got all the UO2 stuff dumped unto us....
[04:40:20] <WishStone> It never fit into the Ultima theme >:[
[04:41:07] <Sheng_Gradilla> Have you tried Lineage?
[04:41:09] <WishStone> I feel like shooting the UO producers every time I see the cyborgs or tanks in UO :[
[04:41:18] <WishStone> No, I'm in UO and stuck there... :\
[04:41:34] <Sheng_Gradilla> no purchase required, just download the zip and create an account
[04:41:56] <Sheng_Gradilla> they give you a free trial week
[04:42:08] <WishStone> *nods* Very nice.
[04:42:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> but you have to create the account with a credit card
[04:42:29] <Sheng_Gradilla> I tried it, and played for four months
[04:42:35] <Sheng_Gradilla> but then school ate my time :P
[04:42:54] <WishStone> damn school!
[04:43:13] <Sheng_Gradilla> by the way, Lord British is in Lineage
[04:43:22] <WishStone> I tired to cancle my RL account... it's so expensive and eats all my UO time... but then they told me I need it to have my UO account running. Bastards!
[04:44:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> Richard Garriott works in NC Interactive, the company that publishes Lineage
[04:49:47] <Sheng_Gradilla> http://www.lineage.com/nci/nci_bios_richard.html
[04:49:48] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[04:49:53] <WishStone> :]
[04:49:58] <WishStone> What's that other game...
[04:50:10] <WishStone> Tabula Rasa I think they called the working title...
[04:51:00] <Sheng_Gradilla> no news, but they keep working on it
[04:51:18] <Sheng_Gradilla> from what I know, it is not Garriott's project, but Starr Long's
[04:51:59] <Sheng_Gradilla> Garriott is helping
[04:53:10] <Sheng_Gradilla> from what I read of Tabula Rasa, the game is much like UXO
[04:53:32] <Sheng_Gradilla> seems like UXO is a ripoff from the ideas from Tabula Rasa
[04:58:53] <WishStone> Bad enough I'm addicted to UO. I won't go for UXO...
[04:59:27] <Sheng_Gradilla> that's actually good :P
[04:59:35] <Sheng_Gradilla> don't go for UXO :P
[05:01:03] <WishStone> ;]
[05:01:05] <WishStone> Anyhow!!
[05:01:06] <WishStone> 6am
[05:01:10] <WishStone> reeeeeally time for bed
[05:01:31] <WishStone> Night everyone!
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[17:00:19] * WishStone is the Hunter for the Lost Topic!
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[17:16:04] * WishStone sits in a corner watching people come and go
[17:17:33] <wjp> hi WishStone
[17:17:50] <WishStone> huhu W :]
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[17:37:20] * WishStone glues Cahaan to their seat1 Now Stay!!
[17:37:39] <Cahaan> lol
[17:38:30] <WishStone> ;]
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[17:48:13] <Dominus> hi
[17:48:39] <WishStone> huhu
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[17:50:12] <Dominus> away from killo-watt?
[17:50:30] <Dominus> away from keyword?
[17:50:42] <afkw> eer
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[17:50:47] <WishStone|away> ;D
[17:50:57] <WishStone|away> afkw is the command for this, unlike afkr
[17:50:58] <wjp> hi Dominus
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[17:51:06] <Ranger|afk> :P
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[20:56:40] * wjp hmms about the main gauche paperdoll art
[20:57:13] <wjp> looks like a dagger with a 'hand guard'
[20:57:59] <Dominus> that's what I'd say
[21:02:20] * WishStone stays outa that ;D
[21:02:57] <WishStone> Geeps, I hugged a friend of mine an hour ago and STILL smell like his after-shave :P
[21:04:23] <Dominus> does it at least smell good?
[21:06:23] <WishStone> 'sniffs her shirt* Well, it's not too strong, thank god ;D
[21:06:30] <WishStone> Smells like some lotion or cream to me.
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[21:30:23] <Dominus> uh oh, WishStone has been murdered
[21:30:51] <murderer> Yepps
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[21:44:08] <wjp> hi
[21:44:14] <Dominus> hi Fingolfin
[21:45:26] <Dominus> Fingolfin: there is a question to on the forum http://exult.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=18174&t=18174
[21:45:31] <Fingolfin> hi
[21:46:19] <Fingolfin> see http://exult.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=17984&t=17984
[21:47:23] <wjp> last post in that thread is from the same person as the new thread
[21:47:57] <Dominus> it's just that you talked here about a possible workaround here in #exult and he might have read that
[21:48:29] <Fingolfin> I talked about a possible work around?
[21:48:46] <Fingolfin> I only mentioned the same as in that forum post (you have to compile on a 10.2 system, and I don't have one right now)
[21:48:53] <Fingolfin> maybe I can utilize the Sf.net compile farm...
[21:49:12] <Fingolfin> however it has the old buggy GCC farm (still <sigh>)
[21:49:36] <wjp> I didn't have much compiling things on the sf OS X box
[21:49:46] <wjp> internal compiler errors in pentagram
[21:50:06] <wjp> (I would assume the same ones you got a couple of ages ago)
[21:50:16] <Dominus> on the 10th you two discussed this:
[21:50:17] <Dominus> [13:14:02] <Fingolfin> the problem is, I know how to use those SDKs trivially via XCode, apple's developer IDE
[21:50:18] <Dominus> [13:14:11] <Fingolfin> but I dunno how to use them "triviall" from the CLI...
[21:50:18] <Dominus> [13:14:40] <Fingolfin> maybe I can do it by inserting some -L / -I / -F statements at the start of LDFLAGS/CPPFLAGS... hrm
[21:50:18] <Dominus> [13:17:47] <wjp> I think gcc also has some options to ignore the 'system' include/library paths
[21:50:18] <Dominus> [13:21:00] <wjp> (nostdinc, nostdinc++ for the include paths; not sure about the library paths)
[21:50:20] <Dominus> [13:44:55] <Fingolfin> possible
[21:50:22] <Dominus> [13:45:08] <Fingolfin> I'll look later (tonight?) into this, gotta go now...
[21:50:33] <Dominus> that's what I meant
[21:51:51] <Fingolfin> I don't think ClockNova read that, though, nothing in his new post hinted at it
[21:52:19] <Fingolfin> anyway, I never got around trying that. But it looks like a tedious job to get that to work, and quite frankly, I am not sure I am willing to spend that amount of work on it...
[21:52:55] * Dominus shrugs
[21:53:15] <Fingolfin> i.e. anybody with a 10.2 box would have a trivial job of producing a exult binary working on 10.2
[21:53:20] <Fingolfin> provided they use the latest 10.2 dev tools
[21:53:22] <Dominus> that's really for you to decide
[21:53:29] <wjp> and know what they're doing :-)
[21:53:34] <Fingolfin> while I have to go out of my way and do complicated tricks ... so...
[21:53:34] <Dominus> maybe we can make ClockNova to do it
[21:54:24] <Fingolfin> maybe I have a 10.2 system on a FW HD somewhere around... i could, if I find it, reboot into that and try it.... but so far, there was exactly one request... hum
[21:55:43] <Dominus> and then that hd might have that buggy gcc on it...
[21:56:55] <Fingolfin> no
[21:57:01] <Fingolfin> and even if, I can easily update it
[21:57:15] <Fingolfin> that's not the problem (the update can be downloaded by anybody from connect.apple.com)
[21:58:24] <wjp> Fingolfin: would this help: http://hosted.sextons.net/gravy/archives/cat_mac_os_x.html
[21:58:33] <wjp> (the january 8, 2004 entry)
[22:00:00] <Fingolfin> which points to http://gborg.postgresql.org/pipermail/pgsqlcocoa-forum/2003/000012.html
[22:00:03] <wjp> yes
[22:00:11] <Fingolfin> I can give it a try
[22:00:36] <wjp> looks like a compile option, a link option and two environment vars
[22:01:40] * Fingolfin wonders if that stuff will take care of Frameworks, too
[22:03:08] * wjp wonders about that too, even though he doesn't quite know what it means :-)
[22:03:26] <Dominus> he he
[22:03:48] * wjp browses around the SF compile farm OS X machine a bit
[22:03:48] <Fingolfin> :-) that is the part which i thought might be complicated
[22:04:18] <Fingolfin> the -I and -L are relatively simple stuff... but I'd assume you also need a "-F" to specify where it shall look for Frameworks... but maybe that is not necessary. We'll see
[22:04:55] <Fingolfin> MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET is a flag for the linker, BTW
[22:05:08] <Dominus> I'd say you have an eager tester in the forum :-)
[22:05:44] <wjp> and you can probably try to run it on the compile farm's 10.2 machine
[22:06:20] * Fingolfin thinks that he might have to add -F/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.2.7.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/ to both LDFLAGS and CPPFLAGS
[22:06:21] <wjp> (it should at least get past the dynamic linking stage that was failing for ClockNova, I hope)
[22:06:36] <wjp> -F is to frameworks what -L is to libraries?
[22:06:50] <Fingolfin> well I can for starters also check if a) it still runs on 10.3 <g> and b) using nm check whether the problematic symbols occur in the binary
[22:06:55] <Fingolfin> yeah
[22:07:03] <Fingolfin> but frameworks are both headers *and* libraries
[22:07:12] <Fingolfin> so you need to pass them both to the compiler and to the linker
[22:07:18] * WishStone eyes wjp and mutters 'Geek' under her breath
[22:07:21] <WishStone> ;D
[22:07:40] <Fingolfin> Frameworks are bundles (directory with structured content
[22:08:18] <Fingolfin> typical example looks like this:
[22:08:19] <Fingolfin> |-- AddressBook -> Versions/Current/AddressBook
[22:08:19] <Fingolfin> |-- Headers -> Versions/Current/Headers
[22:08:19] <Fingolfin> `-- Versions
[22:08:19] <Fingolfin> |-- A
[22:08:21] <Fingolfin> | |-- AddressBook
[22:08:23] <Fingolfin> | `-- Headers
[22:08:25] <Fingolfin> | |-- ABAddressBook.h
[22:08:36] <Fingolfin> (that'S the start of the content of "AddressBook.framework" )
[22:09:27] <wjp> I'm just taking a peek at the frameworks on the SF OS X box
[22:09:42] * wjp had actually already found /System/Library/Frameworks :-)
[22:09:43] <Fingolfin> (MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET should be 10.1, btw - 10.2.7 isn't a valid value :-)
[22:09:46] <Fingolfin> hehe
[22:10:09] <Fingolfin> argh, seems the 10.2.7 OpenGL framework is defective
[22:10:35] <wjp> does it need that because of exult or because of SDL?
[22:10:40] <Fingolfin> and luckily there is a fix : http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/stepmania/stepmania/PBProject/README?rev=1.7
[22:10:44] <wjp> (or because of a system lib?)
[22:10:46] <Fingolfin> SDL always links against OpenGL on OSX
[22:11:18] <wjp> haha, nice fix/workaround :-)
[22:12:19] <Fingolfin> I think I should collect all this information, clean it up, and put it online somewhere :-)
[22:12:26] <wjp> missing the entire Libraries directory is pretty impressive :-)
[22:12:50] <wjp> Fingolfin: it does sound useful, yes
[22:14:48] <wjp> so if I understand this correctly, a framework is a way to package an entire library (both headers and binaries) and make it available to the compiler/linker easily without having to add separate -I and -L paths
[22:18:04] <Fingolfin> yes. moreover, it can contain multiple versions of a library and of the header files
[22:18:35] <Fingolfin> and also additional data
[22:18:51] <Fingolfin> resources like images/sounds, or the documentation, etc.
[22:20:09] <wjp> hm, I also see 'sub'frameworks here under Carbon.framework
[22:20:57] <Fingolfin> interesting. I just removed all the CPPFLAGS/LDFLAGS I had set, and only kept MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET and NEXT_ROOT, and it was automatically looking for the frameworks in the 10.2.7sdk
[22:21:05] <Fingolfin> however, configure failed the SDL detection
[22:21:12] <Fingolfin> configure:23057: ./conftest
[22:21:12] <Fingolfin> dyld: ./conftest malformed library: /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.2.7.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Frameworks/CarbonCore.framework/CarbonCore (not a Mach-O library file, bad filetype value)
[22:21:30] <Fingolfin> it's not a surprise considering that the SDK only contains stubs
[22:21:35] * Fingolfin tries again w/o NEXT_ROOT
[22:22:20] <wjp> hm, so that's the actual running of a program that fails?
[22:22:32] <wjp> not really surprising, no
[22:24:43] <wjp> there's a "don't run SDL test program" configure option, isn't there?
[22:25:25] <Fingolfin> yeah, but I have the suspicions NEXT_ROOT actually affects the dynamic linker at runtime, too. I'll try w/o it for now (and research a bit on it)
[22:38:27] <Fingolfin> when linking expack, I get
[22:38:28] <Fingolfin> std::basic_istream<char, std::char_traints<char> >::seekg(std::fpos<__mbstate_t>)
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[22:38:39] <murderer> hmpf!
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[22:39:21] <Fingolfin> "char_traints" ? wonder if that is a typo =)
[22:39:32] <wjp> traints? eh
[22:40:11] <wjp> where is that typo from?
[22:40:27] <Fingolfin> it's from the error message the linker prints when trying to link expack
[22:40:35] <Fingolfin> however, a google for that string shows that apparently it's OK
[22:40:45] <Fingolfin> anyway, using "nm" on the libstdc++ being used gives:
[22:40:46] <Fingolfin> 000026c8 T std::basic_istream<char, std::char_traints<char> >::seekg(std::fpos<mbstate_t>)
[22:40:56] <Fingolfin> notice __mbstate_t vs mbstate_t
[22:41:48] <wjp> [wjp@aldur ~]$ grep char_traints /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.2.3/libstdc++.a
[22:41:51] <wjp> Binary file /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.2.3/libstdc++.a matches
[22:42:19] <wjp> almost makes me want to take a peek at the libstdc++ sources to see what it is :-)
[22:42:22] <wjp> (almost :-) )
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[22:55:14] <Dominus> goodnight
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[23:19:00] <wjp> time for me to go too; good night
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[23:22:23] <WishStone> ....
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[23:25:52] <WishStone> oopsie
[23:30:46] <WishStone> [00:40] -dmwaters- {global notice} Hi all! we appear to be having bad luck today.:) we're currently looking into the services crash, and why our main rotation server just disappeared. any further messages will be given in wallops "/mode your_nick +w"
[23:30:47] <WishStone> :D
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