#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 24 Mar 2003 (GMT)

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[00:13:48] <Dominus> hi Kirben
[00:26:54] <Kirben> Hi
[00:28:10] <Dominus> did you get my mail, asking for help compiling dosbox?
[00:29:24] <Kirben> Yes, dos box currently doesn't support mingw
[00:30:04] <Dominus> yeah, I know but I wondered if there is a way to get it compile with the msys-dtk stuff
[00:31:51] <Kirben> No usual trick failed last I tried.
[00:32:04] <Dominus> bummer
[00:35:35] <Dominus> I found a "leaked" rc1 on Vogons dated 03-14-03
[00:38:47] <Kirben> Thats about same time I could last build dosbox.
[00:39:06] <Dominus> I see
[00:41:09] <Kirben> Will give it another try will latest cvs.
[01:04:17] <Kirben> No luck :(
[01:04:32] <Dominus> too bad
[01:05:17] <Dominus> and worse that the developers seem to be quite "cvs is not supported and we will not do anything to fix it" most of the times
[01:06:20] <Dominus> but that'S their decision, nothing to cry about :-)
[01:10:06] <Dominus> Kirben: thanks for checking it out and additional thanks for doing such a superb job in supplying makefiles and how-to's for all those great projects
[01:10:11] <Dominus> got to go to sleep
[01:10:16] <Dominus> bye
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[01:10:21] <Kirben> night
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[08:16:20] <wjp> hi
[08:17:30] <Darke> Hi.
[08:20:59] <Matt_O> hi
[08:24:02] <Matt_O> g'night
[08:31:51] <Darke> Night!
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[11:54:11] <Fingolfin> hi
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[12:01:39] <Colourless> hi
[12:01:45] <Fingolfin> yo
[12:01:53] <DarkeAFK> Hiya
[12:15:57] <Colourless> as usual it seems nothing at all is going on here
[12:17:05] <Fingolfin> weelllll
[12:17:27] <Fingolfin> you can also call it differently! You could even claim *a lot* is going on here recently
[12:17:37] <Fingolfin> of course that'd be a lie. But you could do it, anyway
[12:17:49] <DarkeAFK> It all hinges on how broadly you define 'recently', really.
[12:18:00] <Colourless> i said nothing about recently
[12:18:32] <Colourless> i'm talking about the present... the here now!
[12:19:41] <DarkeAFK> You realise of course by saying that, you're causing *something* to happen, so logically if there's something happening, then there's not-nothing happening, so your statment is resting on dubious grounds.
[12:20:17] <Colourless> stop talking paradoxes
[12:23:28] <Colourless> that wasn't a request for you, that was a call out to all people! Help me stop talking paradoxes! Lets rid the world of the evil!
[12:27:33] <Fingolfin> that is kind of paradox, isn't it?
[12:27:57] <Fingolfin> hmm
[12:28:00] <Colourless> shut up
[12:28:16] <Fingolfin> I think I have to dissolve into a logic cloud for some time to think over this 8-)
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[12:28:29] <Colourless> it, did contain an abiguous statement though
[13:41:22] <Colourless> bbl
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[16:39:12] <Fingolfin> yo
[16:39:32] <Colourless> hi
[16:40:12] <Fingolfin> I hope channel activity was high in my absence to appease Ryan? :-)
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[17:01:22] <wjp> hi
[17:02:14] <Fingolfin> yo yo
[17:05:50] <Colourless> what's this? people have spoken... oh, 'tis nothing...
[17:06:47] <wjp> lol
[17:09:11] <Fingolfin> bah
[17:09:32] <Fingolfin> I am thinking about using the sox resampling filter for ScummVM, maybe that would also work in Exult/Pentagram
[17:09:35] <wjp> I could of course say something useful, but that would cause a serious decrease in the amount of meta-talk
[17:09:42] <Fingolfin> but for now I first want to find out if it's fit for real time processing =)
[17:09:46] <Fingolfin> indeed
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[17:09:51] <Fingolfin> it would hurt our S/N level
[17:09:58] <Fingolfin> we wouldn't want that, would weß
[17:09:59] <Fingolfin> ?
[17:10:05] <wjp> most definitely not
[17:10:12] <wjp> it's one of the defining properties of #exult
[17:10:22] <Fingolfin> we have defining properties? wow
[17:10:25] <Colourless> it' good that we all agree
[17:10:42] <wjp> Fingolfin: yes; one of them being an absurdly low S/N ratio :-)
[17:10:48] <Fingolfin> hrm, but isn't agreement productive? wouldn't it be much better if we all disagreed?
[17:11:04] <wjp> unless you count meta-talk with S. In that case the S/N ratio would be quite high
[17:11:27] <Fingolfin> but isn't this meta-meta-talk?
[17:11:42] <wjp> hm, yes... which category would that fall into?
[17:11:50] <Fingolfin> sounds like a problem of infinite recursion =)
[17:11:55] <Colourless> both?
[17:12:25] <Fingolfin> hm, then the S/N would approach 1, if the amount of it is large enough compared to the rest of conversations
[17:12:45] <wjp> well, that depends on if it's added to both with the same weight
[17:12:53] <Fingolfin> maybe we should write a script that parses exultbot's logs and scans for S vs. N ?
[17:13:01] <Fingolfin> wjp: indeed
[17:13:07] <wjp> nah, that would require us to write code
[17:13:17] <wjp> writing code = productive. We don't want that
[17:13:23] <Colourless> !!!!
[17:13:39] <Fingolfin> <shudder> horrible thought
[17:13:46] <wjp> besides, I have this horrible logic-puzzle to solve. I can't waste time on coding ;-)
[17:14:08] <Fingolfin> I mean, I have managed to keep the global options dialog in ScummVM in a "placeholder - Implement this!" state. If I go on like this I mihgt end up *implementing it*.
[17:14:10] <matto|wookin> :o
[17:14:13] <Fingolfin> THis is avery dangerous
[17:14:29] <matto|wookin> Fingolfin is the exult 1.00 source code supposed to compile "out of the box" on mac OS X?
[17:14:37] <Fingolfin> see, I am so scared, by spelling degrades even more than normally =)
[17:14:38] <wjp> yes, you have to be very very careful with placeholders
[17:14:58] <wjp> they're great for avoiding productivity, but they might trick you into implementing them
[17:14:59] <Fingolfin> matto|wookin: dunno... the 1.0 branch does, AFAIK. Not sure about the releases tar ball
[17:15:09] <Fingolfin> matto|wookin: but it doesn't help you anyway, it doesn't work
[17:15:24] <matto|wookin> heh
[17:15:24] <Fingolfin> matto|wookin: unless you compiler your own GCC. Or maybe if you make it use gcc2
[17:15:34] <Fingolfin> wjp: yes! how true
[17:15:46] <matto|wookin> I was looking for an example on how to make my exe double-clickable
[17:16:12] <matto|wookin> I found some program that made it double clickable... but then it couldn't see any other files in its local directory
[17:16:34] <wjp> I wrote lots of placeholders for pentagram too. And now I feel tempted to flesh them out. I must try to ignore the temptation...
[17:16:43] <matto|wookin> wjp : don't... do... it!
[17:57:27] <wjp> bbl, dinner
[18:04:57] <Colourless> cya
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[22:06:58] <BET-frogger> wjp terms of a licence fulfilled!
[22:07:00] <BET-frogger> :(
[22:07:02] <BET-frogger> :)
[22:07:17] <wjp> sorry if that sounded a bit too pedantic :-)
[22:07:38] <wjp> Fingolfin: what's your opinion on the MacOSX config file location, btw?
[22:07:39] <BET-frogger> the first :) was a typo..
[22:08:07] <Fingolfin> wjp: if I built a official release, I would make it ~/Library/Preferences/Exult Preferences
[22:08:12] <BET-frogger> english layout on german keyboard
[22:09:44] <wjp> always fun :-)
[22:10:40] <BET-frogger> I also tought of putting it to Preferences...it seems to me that there are only standard xml files in there
[22:11:18] <Fingolfin> BET-frogger: nope
[22:11:19] <BET-frogger> with <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> and all that other stuff
[22:11:41] <Fingolfin> BET-frogger: no, this is for all and any preference files, there are also binary files in there etc
[22:11:44] <BET-frogger> Fingolfin I just looked at 2 or 3...
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[22:12:42] * BET-frogger making a cat Library/Preferences/*
[22:12:56] <BET-frogger> okay there are binaries...
[22:14:17] <BET-frogger> but as I noticed that even emacs uses ~/.emacs, I decided to do so too
[22:14:54] <wjp> emacs is a 'pure' linux/unix/whatever program, though. Even in Windows they uses .emacs :-)
[22:15:04] <wjp> (although I think it may be _emacs, there)
[22:15:13] <Fingolfin> BET-frogger: BTW are you uisng the 1.0.0 sources, or are you using the head of the 1.0 branch? which has some OS X fixes I think (for compilation only, IIRC)
[22:15:16] <wjp> s/uses/use/
[22:15:30] <Fingolfin> BET-frogger: that's a bad example. emacs is a pure unix app. exult isn#t
[22:15:39] <Fingolfin> exult has a GUI after all =)
[22:15:47] <Fingolfin> and can be distributed in an .app bundle
[22:16:16] <BET-frogger> I have an emacs version with a GUI and an .app
[22:16:51] <BET-frogger> nice clicki-bunti :)
[22:18:00] <Fingolfin> yeah, but it probbaly wants to stay compatible with the unix CLI version, so it uses the same prefs location
[22:18:17] <Fingolfin> but in general, the location to store prefs on Mac OS X is ~/Library/Preferences
[22:18:30] <Fingolfin> and application support files go to ~/Library/Application Support
[22:18:42] <Fingolfin> I still wonder why the heck Safari uses ~/Library/Safari :-/
[22:19:14] <Fingolfin> (not to mention iTunes, Mathematica and TeXShop not adhering to the guidelines either)
[22:19:52] <BET-frogger> Fingolfin for the 1.0 I used the tarball from your website...not from CVS
[22:20:57] <BET-frogger> are there any differences?
[22:24:32] <Fingolfin> I think I made some changes on the 1.0 branch after it was tagged, but that's all quite some time ago so I am not really sure... did you have to make any mods to get the 1.0 source to compile?
[22:26:55] <wjp> Fingolfin: http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~kleineb/exult-1.0.0-patch.gz
[22:27:04] <wjp> (some minor changes; mostly std::string related)
[22:27:35] <BET-frogger> yes....
[22:27:42] <BET-frogger> wjp was faster:)
[22:28:51] <BET-frogger> Fingolfin the problem with the AudioOptions_gump.cc must be known to you, there is a patch in the SF patch Tracker
[22:29:37] <BET-frogger> but I noticed it to late in merged the std:string changes from exult's cvs version
[22:29:53] <BET-frogger> so that it compiles again.
[22:29:59] <Fingolfin> well
[22:30:16] <Fingolfin> with the top of the 1.0 branch, and with HEAD, there are *no* compile or link problems known to me what so ever
[22:30:28] <Fingolfin> no mods needed for std::string or anything, for example
[22:31:48] <Fingolfin> once the OS X compiler is fixed, I'll try to get us to make a 1.0.1 source release based on the current 1.0 branch, but not before
[22:34:24] <BET-frogger> Fingolfin sorry, but can u tell me that's the HEAD all about
[22:34:58] <BET-frogger> is this a special CVS tag?
[22:35:00] <wjp> that's just the current 1.0.x CVS version
[22:35:16] <wjp> yeah, HEAD's the special tag for the most current version
[22:35:36] <BET-frogger> most current version of a special branch?
[22:36:07] <wjp> actually I'm not entirely sure about that
[22:36:32] * wjp reads up a bit
[22:36:42] <Fingolfin> well, that#s the jargon for it
[22:36:58] <Fingolfin> just checkout the devel-1-00 branch
[22:37:14] <wjp> ah, I misread
[22:37:17] <BET-frogger> so when I make a cvs update -PAd I'll get the HEAD
[22:37:42] <wjp> HEAD = current CVS version. (of the main branch)
[22:37:49] <wjp> -A was ignore sticky tags, right?
[22:37:55] <wjp> I think you'll get HEAD then, yes
[22:38:11] <Fingolfin> uhm, to clarify this
[22:38:26] <Fingolfin> both the devel-1-00 branch, as well as the trunk, should compile on OS X out of the box
[22:38:27] <BET-frogger> not just ignores, alsoclears them
[22:38:37] <Fingolfin> with "head" I was just informally refering to the top of each branch
[22:38:52] <Fingolfin> the devel-1-00 branch has changes past the point where the tarball was made
[22:38:54] <BET-frogger> yes yes I get it
[22:39:04] <BET-frogger> ;)
[22:39:24] * Fingolfin verifies his statement is actually still true =)
[22:39:39] <wjp> :-)
[22:40:19] * wjp grumbles
[22:40:35] <wjp> I now have a pretty solid proof that this puzzle I've been working on for days doens't have a solution
[22:40:48] <wjp> s/doens't/doesn't/
[22:41:03] <wjp> but it does have one.
[22:41:06] <wjp> *sigh*
[22:41:15] <BET-frogger> hmm. it seems that Release1_00 is newer than devel-1-00
[22:41:18] * wjp goes over his reasoning once more
[22:41:41] <wjp> are you sure? that sounds weird
[22:41:46] <BET-frogger> Release1_00 (revision:
[22:41:47] <BET-frogger> devel-1-00 (branch: 1.42.2)
[22:42:01] <BET-frogger> output ot cvs status -v README
[22:42:14] <wjp> doesn't that mean that Release1_00 is on that branch for that file?
[22:42:53] <wjp> oh, btw, the branch point of devel-1-00 was indeed before Release1_00
[22:43:01] <Fingolfin> wjp: which puzzle?
[22:43:15] <wjp> oh, some logic puzzle for the upcoming math summer camp
[22:43:16] <BET-frogger> wjp yea...
[22:43:29] <Fingolfin> as wjp says: devel-1-00 is the branch. Release1_00 is the point we made the 1.0 source snapshot
[22:43:35] <wjp> it involves statements about (purely fictional) couples between people there
[22:43:37] <Fingolfin> but the branhc has newer files, too
[22:43:58] <wjp> of course, not all those statements are necessarily true
[22:44:15] <wjp> and there are also statements saying if other statements are true or false
[22:44:23] <wjp> in short: a recipe for disaster :-)
[22:45:46] <BET-frogger> wjp and you have a proof for a contratiction
[22:45:50] <BET-frogger> ?
[22:46:07] <wjp> well, I need to go over it a couple of more times before I'm totally sure, but yes
[22:46:45] <BET-frogger> if there are not to many variables you can make a hughe truth table :)
[22:47:10] <wjp> :-)
[22:47:15] <wjp> let's see...
[22:47:19] <wjp> there are 10 people
[22:47:40] <wjp> each of them is either a participant or a supervisor (so that's 10)
[22:47:51] <wjp> each of them either lies or tells the truth (20)
[22:48:18] <wjp> then there's 5 couples between them (another 120 options, so about 7 bits) (27)
[22:49:05] <wjp> would still fit in RAM though
[22:49:11] <BET-frogger> lol
[22:50:24] * Dark-Star likes math puzzles too... maybe wjp could post a link to the puzzle he's working on? ;-)
[22:51:26] <wjp> it's in dutch :-)
[22:51:48] <wjp> and it's kind of supposed to be secret until the actual camp :-)
[22:51:58] <Dark-Star> aaah that's not good, I'm not as good in understanding dutch as you are in understanding german ...
[22:52:31] <BET-frogger> some might say dutch is like german with a cold :)
[22:52:50] <wjp> or german is like dutch with a fever? :-)
[22:53:49] <Dark-Star> anyway, if you like math riddles then this page might be interesting: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/riddles/intro.shtml
[22:54:45] <wjp> ah, cool; I've seen that before but lost the link :-)
[22:55:32] <Dark-Star> hehe... that happened to me too, but I was able to google for it since I knew the wording from one of the puzzles quite well :-)
[22:57:16] <BET-frogger> btw: host www.math.leidenuniv.nl
[22:57:17] <BET-frogger> Host not found.
[22:57:39] <wjp> that's weird
[22:57:53] <wjp> it's
[22:57:54] <Dark-Star> same here...
[22:58:11] <Dark-Star> that works
[22:58:12] <BET-frogger> Dark-Star we are both t-offline
[22:58:30] <wjp> hm... lookup fails from SF shell server too
[22:58:30] <Dark-Star> BET-frogger: I know :-P
[22:58:42] <wjp> oh... wait... it's monday evening evening again... *sigh*
[22:58:47] <Dark-Star> wjp: maybe someone didn't pay the DNS fees? *g*
[22:59:07] <wjp> that's surfnet's default service time. (surfnet's the ISP to dutch universities)
[23:01:02] <wjp> hm, or maybe it's our DNS server
[23:01:35] <wjp> or maybe not :-)
[23:01:46] <matto|wookin> hast du meinen kleinen Hund zum W.C. gehen gesehen?
[23:04:20] <wjp> huh?
[23:04:35] <Dark-Star> matto: what's that, some kind of code? ;-)
[23:43:18] <Dark-Star> got to go...
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[23:49:35] <BET-frogger> Fingolfin if still alive er.. awake:
[23:50:02] <BET-frogger> gumps/.libs/libgumps.a(AudioOptions_gump.o) definition of std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >::assign(char const*, unsigned long) in section (__TEXT,__text)
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[23:51:22] <BET-frogger> I get this error if I build the HEAD of the devel-1-00 brunch
[23:51:52] <wjp> is that the full error?
[23:52:22] <BET-frogger> damm..
[23:52:24] <BET-frogger> /opt/gcc/lib/gcc-lib/powerpc-apple-darwin6.4/3.1/../../../libstdc++.a(string-inst.o) definition of std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >::assign(char const*, unsigned long) in section (__TEXT,__text)
[23:52:25] <BET-frogger> gumps/.libs/libgumps.a(AudioOptions_gump.o) definition of std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >::assign(char const*, unsigned long) in section (__TEXT,__text)
[23:52:46] <BET-frogger> that's the error from the linker ... /bin/sh ./libtool --mode=link /opt/gcc/bin/g++-3 ...
[23:56:12] <BET-frogger> in the current CVS HEAD I get an error if I link static against sdl_mixer
[23:57:32] <wjp> that first one sounds rather weird
[23:57:37] <BET-frogger> it was some days ago..IIRC there were some symbols defined in fmopldrv.o and SDL_mixer, these symbols are bend_fine and bend_coars
[23:58:12] <wjp> are you statically linking with that first error, btw?
[23:58:42] <BET-frogger> with which error, the audiooptions std::?
[23:58:51] <wjp> yes
[23:59:06] <wjp> oh, that one gets fixed by adding a std:: somewhere?
[23:59:21] <BET-frogger> first error...to late for me.....
[23:59:43] <BET-frogger> i merged some std::string things from exult cvs and it works...