#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 24 Oct 2002 (GMT)

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[00:05:58] <Dark-Star> cya
[00:06:05] <Dominus|docsing> k
[00:06:08] <-- Dark-Star has left #exult ()
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[00:47:49] <Dominus|docsing> hi Kirben
[00:47:55] <Kirben> Hi
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[01:21:01] <Fingolfin> yo
[01:21:09] * Dominus|docsing looks at his clock and then looks at Fingolfin
[01:21:15] <Dominus|docsing> hi :-)
[01:21:27] <Fingolfin> hi Dominus|docsing :-)
[01:25:31] <-- matto has left IRC ("This feeling.. inside me. Finally found my life, I'm finally free. No longer torn in two. Living my own life by learning fr")
[01:25:47] <Dominus|docsing> now I should be done with all the documentation stuff
[01:26:29] <Dominus|docsing> now I only have to write a lengthy mail to the ML...
[01:26:35] <Fingolfin> heheh
[01:27:07] <Dominus|docsing> Fingolfin: when you next are in contact with someone of the SF staff, please tell them how much I like the nntp access to the SF forums
[01:27:25] <Dominus|docsing> this is just great
[01:27:30] <Fingolfin> I am always in the #sourceforge channel on slashnet, actually :-)
[01:27:41] <Fingolfin> though moorman isn't there right now
[01:27:48] <Dominus|docsing> and when they add the ML archive it will be pure joy
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[01:41:46] <Dominus|docsing> matto: do you actually realize that your exit message is not showing complete?
[01:41:54] <matto> !
[01:42:07] <matto> what does it show?
[01:42:28] <Dominus|docsing> if you look at the logs you will see we did discuss this quite in depth
[01:42:38] <Dominus|docsing> ("This feeling.. inside me. Finally found my life, I'm finally free. No longer torn in two. Living my own life by learning f)
[01:42:51] <Dominus|docsing> for Artaxerxes it shows ("This feeling.. inside me. Finally found my life, I'm finally free. No longer torn in two. Living my own life by learning fr)
[01:43:06] <matto> well well well
[01:43:59] <Fingolfin> [3:40 Uhr] moorman: reminder: as per site status, there is a scheduled service outage scheduled to begin in 1h20m
[01:44:09] <Fingolfin> (SF.net being the site here)
[01:44:16] <Fingolfin> Dominus|docsing: moorman is happy to hear your feedback :-)
[01:45:52] <Dominus|docsing> just that it works fine with port tunnel
[01:49:30] <matto> Dominus|docsing: I've corrected the problem, thx :)
[01:50:12] <Dominus|docsing> matto: I wanted to ask you for a long time now how the sentence ends but always forgot when you were actually present :-)
[01:50:47] <matto> Dominus|docsing: I suspect if you searched on google you'd find the answer ;)
[01:50:57] <matto> they are lyrics from a song
[01:51:00] <Dominus|docsing> we found out earlier
[01:51:06] <Dominus|docsing> Dream Theater
[01:51:31] <matto> "I learned about my life by living through you"
[01:51:35] <matto> I believe.. hehe
[01:52:16] <matto> I should check the exult logs for this discussion :)
[01:52:39] <Dominus|docsing> yes, do so, you will find it quite amusing
[01:54:00] <matto> hmm wjp needs to add a search feature to his exult logs web page :(
[01:54:14] <Dominus|docsing> it was jsut yesterday
[01:54:20] <matto> oh ok
[01:54:49] <Dominus|docsing> in GMT
[01:55:54] <matto> <Dominus> never my thing but friends of mine are quite taken by it
[01:56:02] <matto> ^ - I believe they are more popular in Europe than they are here
[01:56:15] <Dominus|docsing> yes, I think so too
[01:56:15] <matto> I don't know anyone who likes them besides my brother and I :(
[01:56:29] <matto> just goes to show that Europeans haev good taste in music.. ;)
[01:56:36] <Dominus|docsing> isn't Darkstar from the same people?
[01:56:53] <matto> darkstar? doesn't ring a bell
[01:59:26] <Dominus|docsing> http://members.aol.com/X1Darkstar/
[02:00:08] <Dominus|docsing> ah, from Psychotic Waltz
[02:00:30] <Dominus|docsing> not Dream Theater (all the same to me though Darkstar is quite nice)
[02:04:58] <matto> maybe I'll have to check them out :)
[02:05:41] <Dominus|docsing> yeah do so. at least the 1st Darkstar, the 2nd is hard to get...
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[08:28:33] <SB-X> yo
[08:34:40] <Darke> Hi.
[08:36:31] <SB-X> Darke: do you have nntp forum access to SourceForge?
[08:37:22] <SB-X> i mean, do you have nntp access to web forums at SourceForge?
[08:41:39] <Darke> Probably. I've not used it though. *grin*
[08:42:16] <SB-X> eh
[08:43:05] <SB-X> <Dominus|docsing> Fingolfin: when you next are in contact with someone of the SF staff, please tell them how much I like the nntp access to the SF forums
[08:43:06] <SB-X> [01:27:25] <Dominus|docsing> this is just great
[08:43:33] <SB-X> <Dominus|docsing> and when they add the ML archive it will be pure joy
[08:43:44] * SB-X never knew about that.
[08:44:11] <SB-X> i wonder if I can get that :-)
[08:44:31] <Darke> If you said that you want SF.net to bug you with a 'features' newsletter once a month, you'd know about that. *grin*
[08:44:37] <SB-X> get access to*
[08:44:42] <SB-X> heh
[08:44:45] <SB-X> i see
[08:45:44] <SB-X> I tried to look at their main page to find out about it, but that has been unavailable for some time due to maintenance.
[08:47:23] <Darke> Strange. OTOP, it's not as if I go there often. *grin*
[09:07:37] <SB-X> It is back up now.
[09:08:02] <SB-X> Project of the Month for October 2002 : gaim
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[13:05:04] <artaxerxes> test
[13:05:46] <SB-X> test succeeded
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[13:17:19] <artaxerxes> :)
[13:20:15] <Fingolfin> yo
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[13:21:49] * Darke yawns and hereby, royally declares that now is the time for him to sleep. Or something like that. *nodyawn* Night!
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[13:26:04] <artaxerxes> hey
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[14:12:32] <Colourless> hi
[14:17:36] <SB-X> yeh
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[16:35:58] <artaxerxes> hi
[16:35:59] <wjp> hi
[16:36:04] <Colourless> hi
[16:36:57] <Fingolfin> hi
[16:37:30] <artaxerxes> I'm creating a palette for Century. I have a clue of what I need, and I'll make it the most general possible so that other ppl can reuse it in the own games. The palette will be freely redistributable but maybe not some art
[16:37:51] <artaxerxes> or at least not alterable
[16:38:26] <artaxerxes> or maybe not reusable for own games.. will see
[16:41:37] <SB-X> hi
[16:44:40] <artaxerxes> do you object to this? Does it sound fundamentaly wrong to make some art and to not allow people to use this art for their own games?
[16:45:08] <Colourless> not at all
[16:45:50] <wjp> it's just basic copyright :-)
[16:45:56] <Colourless> if you make any art, it's your ip. you can do whatever you want with it, and restict access to it however you want
[16:46:49] <artaxerxes> but in a society in which we try to promote freedom, isn't this going backwards?
[16:46:57] <Colourless> hardly
[16:46:58] <wjp> or you could choose to make some art (the more generic art) freely available, and restrict the rest (the things that give your game its unique identity)
[16:47:13] <artaxerxes> that's what I was thinking of doing wjp
[16:47:28] <wjp> I'd just put things like palettes in the public domain
[16:47:34] <artaxerxes> for sure
[16:47:44] <Colourless> open content is a quick way for someone to steal your work
[16:47:45] <artaxerxes> LGPL *giggle*
[16:48:24] <wjp> for art the situation may be trickier than for source code
[16:48:50] <wjp> something like "you may only use this art if you allow others to use most art in your product"
[16:48:57] <Colourless> if your entire game content was allowed to be used by anyone, for any reason, there wouldn't be any restriction on someone even attempting to sell your game without your permission
[16:49:19] <artaxerxes> I've tried to draw NPCs yesterday and I'm getting a better hand. Is it legal (in your opinion) to blank out every pixel of u7's NPC shape and choose my own colours or I'd better draw really from scratch even if the result is the same?
[16:49:40] <Colourless> a restriction that people can only use your content for projects that will not be sold is one way around that problem
[16:49:59] <SB-X> im leaving for now
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[16:50:01] <Colourless> technically no, it's not legal
[16:50:02] <artaxerxes> bye
[16:50:29] <wjp> I doubt anyone would notice if you used the outline of U7's NPCs, though
[16:50:43] <Colourless> you can not use anything from u7 in anyway to be perfectly legal
[16:50:55] <artaxerxes> would you recommand making _VERY_ similar shapes of U7 NPCs or should they be entirely different
[16:50:58] <wjp> but you'd better (say that you) draw everything from scratch :-)
[16:51:31] <artaxerxes> (since players are used to a certain angle)
[16:52:09] <wjp> I would try to pay as little attention to U7 NPCs as possible, and just create them the way you want, regardless if they happen to look like U7's
[16:52:10] <Colourless> it would depend on how similar things are
[16:52:23] <Colourless> i agree with wjp
[16:52:37] <artaxerxes> k
[16:52:37] <Colourless> do what you want, and try to ignore the u7 npcs
[16:52:46] <artaxerxes> alright
[16:53:24] <artaxerxes> the one I've done look very 45 degrees... U7's are more 30 degrees and it's much nicer
[16:53:26] <Colourless> one reason i would never actually use the u7 engine to make a game is just it's perspective
[16:53:48] <artaxerxes> really difficult to draw indeed
[16:53:58] <wjp> the angle is a direct result of the perspective, so you can 'copy' that from U7 :-0
[16:54:02] <artaxerxes> but perspective is everything! ;)
[16:54:02] <wjp> s/0/)/
[16:54:49] <artaxerxes> but perspective is everything! (current motto of a financial canadian newspaper)
[16:55:02] <artaxerxes> (that explains the wink)
[16:55:57] <wjp> ah :-)
[16:56:38] <artaxerxes> si-french.sf.net/snapshot4.png for my beautiful (!) cobble stone street chunk
[16:56:42] <artaxerxes> ;)
[16:57:01] <Colourless> i much prefer the 60 degree from overhead isometric perspective that u8 uses. It just looks more natural
[16:57:15] <artaxerxes> true
[17:04:27] <Colourless> i think i'll be off now
[17:04:31] <Colourless> cya
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[17:20:55] <artaxerxes> YES
[17:21:04] <artaxerxes> SO COOL!
[17:21:11] <artaxerxes> I love the Gimp
[17:21:57] <artaxerxes> Take a picture of someone from head-to-toe and apply a simple perspective/shearing effect and you've got a perfect angle for Century!
[17:22:25] <wjp> hm, that sounds very nice :-)
[17:22:46] <artaxerxes> and a piece of cake too! :)
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[17:33:02] <artaxerxes> that's going to be a bliss! I've written down the image size and the rotation matrix to apply! cool!
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[17:38:54] <artaxerxes> for info: take a any picture of someone seen for head to toe
[17:39:03] <artaxerxes> open it in the gimp
[17:39:22] <artaxerxes> select the shearing tool (right of cropping tool)
[17:39:34] <artaxerxes> select perspective
[17:40:00] <artaxerxes> select traditional (choice 1) or corrective (choice 2)
[17:40:08] <artaxerxes> smoothing on
[17:40:57] <artaxerxes> if choice 1, click in the lower left of the picture and drag that corner to the middle of the image and a tad bit higher
[17:41:15] <artaxerxes> (higher than the bottom side)
[17:41:54] <artaxerxes> if choice 2, click on the upper left of the pix and drag that corner to the middle of the image and a tad bit lower than the top side
[17:41:59] <artaxerxes> you're done!
[17:42:29] <artaxerxes> with choice 1, the image will look smaller, with choice 2, it will look bigger
[17:42:42] <artaxerxes> bbl
[18:28:26] <artaxerxes> my palette is getting really good.
[18:30:17] <wjp> are you creating your current art in 24/32 bit colour?
[18:31:38] <artaxerxes> I think so
[18:32:00] <artaxerxes> and then index using a custom palette (which I am doing)
[18:32:47] <artaxerxes> I've tried this solution in making a chunk with only 4 or 5 colours and index it using u7's palette and it worked pretty well. I think I can do it with a custom palette again
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[18:53:31] <artaxerxes> could someone explain to me how the translucent colours are applied in exult ?
[19:01:07] <artaxerxes> colourless told me that above index 224 the colours rotate, and above 248 they are translucent. Somehow I don't think that 248 and above rotate though... according to the palette, it makes no sense. Can someone confirm?
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[19:08:03] <artaxerxes> wb
[19:08:27] <artaxerxes> if I may suggest, could you read the log and tell me what you think about my 2 last comments?
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[19:30:30] <wjp> rotating colours: 0xE0-0xE8, 0xE8-0xF0, 0xF0-0xF4, 0xF4-0xF8, 0xF8-0xFC
[19:34:15] <wjp> btw, the default palette in the gimp doesn't have the real in-game colours for the translucent ones
[19:34:28] <wjp> instead, they are colour of the translucency belonging to that colour
[19:37:34] <artaxerxes> could you explain that last 2 phrases?
[19:45:26] <wjp> our default gimp-plugin palette is not the same as the in-game palette
[19:45:49] <wjp> we changed the last 8 colours by the colour of the translucency they produce
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[19:46:26] <wjp> e.g., since 0xF8 produces a yellowish translucency, we made 0xF8 yellow in the gimp-plugin palette
[19:50:23] <artaxerxes> I understand now. Using ES, you can open a palette (U7's for instance) and export to a file and use that file into the gimp. Does that still apply?
[19:51:23] <wjp> no, you'll get the real in-game colours that way
[19:51:49] <artaxerxes> ok
[19:52:39] <artaxerxes> right now I'm trying to understand how the surfs are made and I'm puzzled
[19:53:06] <artaxerxes> I can't seem to find what tile is used to make up the surf and how the palette rotation applies there
[19:53:28] <artaxerxes> there is no palette that goes from blue to sand!!
[19:53:48] <artaxerxes> (I mean: no colour in a rotating part of the palette)
[19:55:00] <wjp> that isn't a palette rotation :-)
[19:55:16] <artaxerxes> tile rotation?
[19:55:27] <wjp> it just loops over some frames
[19:55:45] <artaxerxes> you can do that even with chunks ?
[19:55:54] <artaxerxes> I though it was shapes only
[19:56:00] <wjp> chunks consist of shapes
[19:56:32] <artaxerxes> true but there is a difference between tiles and shapes in the shapes.vga.
[19:56:55] <artaxerxes> tiles don't have a header for instance with shapes do
[19:58:24] <artaxerxes> shapes 612 and 613!!! So that was it!
[19:58:43] <wjp> and 751
[19:58:49] <wjp> and 808
[19:58:54] <wjp> 834, ...
[19:59:01] <wjp> 875...
[19:59:08] <artaxerxes> yup
[19:59:11] <wjp> 907, 911, 918 :-)
[19:59:14] <artaxerxes> :)
[19:59:25] <artaxerxes> cleaver
[19:59:32] <artaxerxes> er... clever
[19:59:35] <artaxerxes> :)
[19:59:54] <wjp> just use the 'find' feature in ES to find all shapes named 'surf'
[20:01:17] <artaxerxes> It took me ages to find that feature! I love it now!
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[20:53:25] <artaxerxes> wjp: why does a chunk have a size of 512 bytes when it's make of 8x8 2 bytes tiles ?
[20:58:23] <wjp> 2 byte tiles?
[20:59:37] <wjp> hm, you mean in the u7chunks file?
[21:01:52] <wjp> it's 16x16 tiles, btw
[21:04:12] <artaxerxes> ahh that's explains why I'm all off then! :)
[21:21:04] <artaxerxes> yay! I'm made my very first CentChunk (!) that works with ES!
[21:26:50] <artaxerxes> To start my exult game, I am not supposed to use the coommand: exult -g gamename ?
[21:28:20] <wjp> yeah, I think so
[21:28:48] <artaxerxes> ahhh
[21:28:53] <artaxerxes> it's --game gamename
[21:29:04] <artaxerxes> that's why it didn't work
[21:29:28] <wjp> hm, the --help is kind of outdated, isn't it?
[21:30:55] <artaxerxes> yes!
[21:30:58] <artaxerxes> :)
[21:31:41] <artaxerxes> wjp: please stay for a couple more minutes
[21:31:54] <artaxerxes> http://si-french.sf.net/snapshot5.png
[21:32:00] <artaxerxes> my new game!
[21:32:02] <artaxerxes> :)
[21:32:28] * wjp glances at homework... I'll be here for a while :-)
[21:32:31] <wjp> lol
[21:32:36] <wjp> nice character art :-)
[21:32:56] <artaxerxes> that's the default from ES :_
[21:32:58] <artaxerxes> :)
[21:33:03] <wjp> rofl
[21:33:20] <wjp> hm, I wonder if we should change the window title to something more appropriate when not running BG/SI
[21:33:25] <artaxerxes> true
[21:33:33] <artaxerxes> the caption should be in .exult.cfg
[21:33:38] <artaxerxes> IIRC
[21:33:53] <wjp> actually, it should be in the mythical 'game configuration file' :-)
[21:36:20] <artaxerxes> Ah yes, the one precised at command line with the -c parameter! ;)
[21:36:32] <artaxerxes> how come I can't move the player?
[21:36:38] <wjp> no, not that one
[21:36:51] <wjp> the -c parameter just allows you to specify an alternate exult.cfg file
[21:37:21] <wjp> there is this Cunning Plan(TM) to extract all game-specific data from Exult, and store it in several game configuration files
[21:37:51] <artaxerxes> ahhhh... quite a Cunning Plan(TM) you have there! :)
[21:38:06] <wjp> things like shape numbers for various things, spell-casting data (e.g., reagents), shape animations, etc.. etc.. etc..
[21:38:08] <artaxerxes> btw, I could teleport only if I put a fonts.vga file
[21:38:23] <wjp> otherwise it crashes when it tries to tell you it teleported?
[21:39:29] <artaxerxes> I remember telling jeff about that (a module type of thing). I said let's separate exult from BG specific stuff and from SI specific stuff, so that we can write any module to create a new game. And I've been told that there aren't that many specific stuff to separate anyways
[21:39:33] <artaxerxes> yup
[21:39:49] <artaxerxes> same for hitting "esc". beautiful crash
[21:40:02] <artaxerxes> makes sense. I don't have a gump file either
[21:40:40] <wjp> the amount of work left to do to get exult custom-game-ready is really kind of depressing :-)
[21:40:40] <artaxerxes> where can I change the player's name ? Newbie isn't my favorite nick! ;-)
[21:41:21] <artaxerxes> the amount of art, scenario, sub-plots and tweaking to create a new game is ever more so depressing! :)
[21:41:27] <wjp> game.cc line 236 :-)
[21:41:34] <artaxerxes> ugh
[21:41:36] <wjp> :-)
[21:41:50] <artaxerxes> I have to recompile exult !?! No way... takes too long
[21:41:56] <artaxerxes> oh no!
[21:41:58] <wjp> just one file :-)
[21:41:59] <artaxerxes> it won't
[21:42:02] <artaxerxes> you're right
[21:42:15] * artaxerxes loves Makefiles
[21:54:57] <artaxerxes> if you have a chance reload the URL I sent a bit earlier
[21:55:19] <artaxerxes> http://si-french.sf.net/snapshot5.png
[21:55:54] <artaxerxes> much better
[21:56:31] <artaxerxes> bbl
[21:59:24] <artaxerxes> back
[22:06:25] <wjp> :-)
[22:09:54] <artaxerxes> would be cool to be able to import a shp as a frame for a shapes.vga entry
[22:10:04] <artaxerxes> right now it seems it asks for a png ...
[22:17:41] <wjp> I should be going, I guess :/
[22:17:52] <wjp> g'night
[22:17:55] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz...")
[22:45:21] <artaxerxes> I've update the snapshot for a third time... Please you guys check it out at:
[22:45:25] <artaxerxes> http://si-french.sf.net/snapshot5.png
[22:45:39] <artaxerxes> u
[22:45:39] <artaxerxes> r
[22:45:40] <artaxerxes> l
[22:45:42] <artaxerxes>
[22:45:43] <artaxerxes> a
[22:45:44] <artaxerxes> b
[22:45:44] <artaxerxes> o
[22:45:45] <artaxerxes> v
[22:45:46] <artaxerxes> e
[23:12:35] --> Kirben has joined #exult
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[23:18:01] --> Jammet has joined #exult
[23:18:10] <Jammet> Hiya ... nice to be back in here..
[23:19:03] * Jammet looks absolutely frustrated, and sits down in the virtuality of the channel to ponder.
[23:19:54] <Jammet> I hate my life I hate my life I hate my life.
[23:24:46] <artaxerxes> what's wrong ?
[23:25:53] <Jammet> Welll...
[23:26:15] <Jammet> I rented a nice and good machine to host an ircd for a private network.
[23:26:53] <Jammet> The admin guy was okay with this and the server was to be a leaf. And now he refused. For no reason other than that I messaged him and he was annoyed.
[23:27:21] <Jammet> I've offered so much, worked so hard, and then total refusal.
[23:29:00] <artaxerxes> you've already paid anything ?
[23:29:45] <Jammet> Yeah.
[23:30:03] <artaxerxes> he is obliged to provide what you paid for!
[23:30:18] <Jammet> It's not just the money. It's ... the humiliation. I've been doing virtually handstands just to get everything working right.
[23:30:36] <Jammet> Well, he's not. It's a private network.
[23:31:09] <Jammet> He's just fine off ignoring me. About the hardest personality I have ever come across. Say one thing that he doesn't like and that's it. What kind of Teamplay is that.
[23:32:00] <artaxerxes> not very nice.
[23:32:52] <artaxerxes> anyways Jammet... sorry to seems so quick, but I _do_ have to leave. Come back in about 13 hours and I should be here
[23:33:07] <Jammet> Well, he is your typical "Adolf Admin" person. Knows the OS to the heart. Does everything in vi and mutt and some shells. Sure technically he's pro. But.. the human side.. the one you talk to, that is so crippled, ...
[23:33:20] <Jammet> artaxerxes: Okay. Thanks for listening though.. Bye...
[23:33:22] --- artaxerxes is now known as artaxerxes|Zzz
[23:41:42] <Fingolfin> Jammet: that sucks
[23:41:45] <Fingolfin> Jammet: sucks deeply
[23:42:16] <Fingolfin> what did he say, an outright "no" or "piss off" or what?
[23:44:45] <Jammet> He says it like this:
[23:45:38] <Jammet> Okay, give me a root shell then. I will set up the daemon and configure it. It wouldn't be okay if you were ServerOp.
[23:46:26] <Jammet> Basically he wanted the hardware. I wanted to learn some of the process and do some configuring and have the right to shutdown/restart my server, etc.
[23:46:28] <matto> doh
[23:46:40] <matto> if he is gonna accept money, he has to be willing to put up with getting pestered by his customers
[23:47:44] <Jammet> He wouldn't take money. He's just a very... complicated person. Strange ways of thinking. Rational in his ways, but so rude that it breaks my heart. I mean, a little trust always has to be there with a newcomer. And he does not know me. He was just the responsible person to talk to.
[23:48:13] <Jammet> If there is no trust at all, there is never a beginning to build up on.
[23:49:40] <-- Fingolfin has left IRC ("g00d night, folks")
[23:55:00] --> SB-X has joined #exult
[23:55:02] <SB-X> hi
[23:57:09] <Jammet> Hiya,...
[23:57:47] <SB-X> Jammet!
[23:57:54] <Jammet> Yes?
[23:58:15] <SB-X> i havn't seen you in here for some time
[23:59:19] <Jammet> I'm sorry about that...
[23:59:28] * Jammet looks all sad.
[23:59:57] <Jammet> Lots of things went wrong. I got frustrated a lot.