#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 25 Jan 2003 (GMT)

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[06:22:34] --- Topic for #exult is: Exult: An open-source engine for Ultima 7: The Black Gate and The Serpent Isle; Exult 1.0 has been released! http://exult.sf.net/
[06:22:34] --- Topic for #exult set by wjp at Sun Dec 1 13:38:03 2002
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[06:27:20] <Servus> Why HELLO there, Exultbot!
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[06:44:39] <Servus> look he sleep-walked in here!
[06:46:10] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[06:47:46] <Servus> Zzz?
[07:03:19] <ShadwChsr> nope im here
[07:04:40] <Servus> yep
[07:05:22] <ShadwChsr> what kind of exult person are you?
[07:18:23] <Servus> i started ultima 7 clones 3 times, but never finished
[07:19:04] <Servus> im working on UW2:LoW, but ive stopped work for a bit until i see ANYONE from the group that i hope exists and that i hope im in :P
[07:25:15] <ShadwChsr> Ahhhhh thats right
[07:25:50] <ShadwChsr> What kind of ultima 7 clone? Like exult, or a new engine/game?
[07:31:23] <Servus> 3d
[07:31:29] <Servus> isometric but all-3d
[07:31:34] <Servus> 3d buildings etc
[07:31:34] <ShadwChsr> ahhhh
[07:31:51] <ShadwChsr> Why'd you decide on working on UW2?
[07:34:36] <Servus> over christmas break, i beat uw2 for what must be the tenth time... so i decided to make it -- after a little bit of work, i found that it had already been started, so i offered my help, though i expected a bit more of an active scene :-(... apparently Coren is the only other guy who works on the project, and he's unfortunately been ill and incapacitated as of late
[07:34:59] <ShadwChsr> Ahhh
[07:35:11] <ShadwChsr> I've been working on an indie project
[07:35:23] <ShadwChsr> I could use another set of ideas to review code or help, if you want :)
[07:35:40] <Servus> what project
[07:36:08] <ShadwChsr> RPG thing, same as everyone else ;-)
[07:36:20] <ShadwChsr> 2D Isometric
[07:36:28] <Servus> heh
[07:36:34] <Servus> 2D done with 3D?
[07:36:43] <Servus> im doing the same thing right now lol, but 3d isometric :-)
[07:36:43] <ShadwChsr> however, it's rendered in a 3d pipeline to allow for particle effects, dynamic lighting, etc
[07:36:50] <Servus> mostly improving my programming skills
[07:36:51] <ShadwChsr> yeah
[07:37:12] <Servus> i can upload a demo of my current status ( i started it 2 days ago from scratch so im happy about that :)
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[07:41:10] <ShadwChsr> I don't want to go over my head either, 3D programming is alot more complex
[07:41:21] <Servus> direct3d or opengl?
[07:41:41] <ShadwChsr> Whatever you want ;)
[07:41:46] <Servus> what did u make yours in
[07:41:47] <ShadwChsr> Renderer is abstracted into a DLL
[07:41:47] <Servus> i mean
[07:41:58] <ShadwChsr> Currently its D3D
[07:42:04] <Servus> no no no -- direct3d has a full retained mode for loading and displaying fully boned and animated models
[07:43:22] <ShadwChsr> *shrug* I'm using the D3DX interfaces just fine ;)
[07:43:52] <Servus> its part of that
[07:44:07] <ShadwChsr> Yeah I know
[07:44:25] <ShadwChsr> but the point is, having it abstracted won't prevent the engine from loading fully boned or animated models
[07:44:45] <ShadwChsr> it just means the OpenGL version will have more code for that function ;-)
[07:45:08] <Servus> load the directx SDK demo :DXSDK\samples\Multimedia\Direct3D\bin\skinnedmesh
[07:45:13] <ShadwChsr> I may just remove that all together, but I figured I would have a bitching fest if I hardcoded Direct3D :P
[07:45:27] <Servus> and be impressed by it :-P
[07:47:25] * ShadwChsr nods, cool
[07:47:56] <ShadwChsr> 2D just doesn't impress you, huh? :)
[07:49:07] <Servus> baldurs gate was on 4 CDs
[07:49:24] <Servus> after seeing how short that game was for 4 CDs, i lost a lot of that "im impressed" oompah when it comes to 2d
[07:49:44] <ShadwChsr> They used that god-aweful prerendered background stuff
[07:49:48] <ShadwChsr> I *hate* that ;P
[07:50:06] <Servus> looked like tiles to me
[07:50:08] <Servus> quite a bit of it
[07:50:13] <ShadwChsr> The whole point of an RPG is interactivity
[07:50:19] <Servus> ever play Alone in the Dark or Ecstatica?
[07:50:19] <ShadwChsr> no, balders gate was pre-renderer, all of it
[07:50:23] <ShadwChsr> no
[07:50:32] <Servus> awesome games with prerendered backgrounds
[07:50:34] <ShadwChsr> err pre-rendered. The "infinity engine"
[07:50:46] <Servus> theres a game called Planescape:Torment that used the Baldurs Gate engine, but kicked baldur's gate's ARSE
[07:52:01] <Servus> http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/7/197207/ecstat2_screen004.jpg here's ecstatica
[07:52:55] <ShadwChsr> ahh
[07:53:06] <ShadwChsr> Still, for an indie game, start simple and expand later.
[07:54:18] <ShadwChsr> Almost all other developers say I want to make a 3d game just like <insert game name here> and it'll have fully LOD textures and curved surfaces and it'll be 10x the size of <game name here>
[07:54:24] <ShadwChsr> And guess what? They all fail
[07:54:46] <ShadwChsr> I'm planning small but building a framework that can handle lots of expansion
[07:54:53] <Servus> well...
[07:55:00] <ShadwChsr> It should be possible to integrate 3d players with little framework changes
[07:55:02] <Servus> buy the quake3 engine and you dont need to do an awful lot more than art :-)
[07:55:12] <Servus> yea just change the class
[07:55:22] <ShadwChsr> ... if you're writing a "leveled" FPS
[07:55:53] <ShadwChsr> that 3d engine doesn't take into account seemless/loadless worlds
[07:56:24] <Servus> halflife was pretty close, and that's old technology
[07:56:43] <ShadwChsr> yeah, but halflife isn't quake 3 ;-)
[07:57:03] <Servus> halflife is quake 2
[07:57:04] <ShadwChsr> Half life isn't perfectly seemless, it only fakes it by pre-loading levels and swapping them fast
[07:57:24] <ShadwChsr> halflife isn't quake 2, its a heavily modified engine based on the quake engine, with retrofitted quake 2 code
[07:57:31] <Servus> its good as seamless, but it requires (VERY) quick loads
[07:57:52] <ShadwChsr> true, but that only works in small hallways
[07:58:00] <ShadwChsr> What are you going to do on a grassy field? ;)
[07:58:02] <Servus> they licensed the quake2 engine and built onto it, as i understand it... and since ive done a lot of half-life programming, and seen all the quake2 comments written by romero, id have to disagree:-)
[07:58:12] <ShadwChsr> Oops look half the NPCs just magically disappeared ;-)
[07:58:13] <Servus> quake3 = big open areas
[07:58:32] <Servus> i just finished American McGee's Alice, (quake3 engine) and that game rocked!
[07:58:59] <ShadwChsr> I'm not saying those games suck, I'm just saying their engines won't work for an RPG that I envision :)
[07:59:14] <Servus> ultima 9
[07:59:15] <Servus> ...
[07:59:16] <Servus> :-)
[07:59:31] <Servus> game never crashed for me, and ran perfect on a p3 700mhz with a geforce2 mx
[07:59:37] <Servus> dunno what these naysayers are complaining about :-P
[07:59:39] <ShadwChsr> Ultima 9's engine was pretty good
[07:59:55] <ShadwChsr> The seemless part was great
[07:59:58] <Servus> it was a little slower than it would have been if... if software made the graphics :-)
[08:00:01] <ShadwChsr> Too bad they fumbled on the gameplay though
[08:00:15] <Servus> *id* software i meant to say
[08:00:28] <ShadwChsr> And for some reason it feels weird playing 3rd person/1st person RPGs, guess I'm just old school ;-)
[08:00:34] <Servus> i didnt mind the gameplay, but the story was just a tad trite
[08:00:49] <Servus> u9 had a first person option:P
[08:00:54] <Servus> it wasnt the greatest, but it was there
[08:00:55] <ShadwChsr> 3d or 2d, I prefer a fixed camera :) I hate getting killed by a monster and having to spend a minute moving my mouse 50 times to turn around ;P
[08:01:09] <Servus> i have my mouse usensitivity high:p
[08:01:25] <ShadwChsr> Yeah but most games these days override the windows mouse and program their own, which is part of the game loop
[08:01:37] <ShadwChsr> which means the mouse is hooked to the frame rate, which makes the mouse laggy ;P
[08:01:48] <Servus> its easy to make it a separate thread
[08:01:50] <ShadwChsr> Don't they know you can use the windows cursor in a Direct-X app? :P
[08:02:07] <ShadwChsr> the windows cursor is hardware accellerated, even a thread doesn't come close
[08:02:08] <Servus> and windows cursors arent pretty 32 bit coloured and animated cursors :-)
[08:02:17] <ShadwChsr> Sure they are ;)
[08:02:32] <Servus> i made my sample direct3d program have the mouse cursor from ultima 9/ultima online :-D (the severed hand in a gauntlet)
[08:02:45] <ShadwChsr> ahhhh hehe
[08:03:03] <Servus> i hid the windows mouse and showed my dx mouse, and set it to that graphic, and it wasnt slow, not noticably at least
[08:03:03] <ShadwChsr> just make it an .ICO and fire off one API call to change it for your app ;-)
[08:03:14] <Servus> doesnt work right
[08:03:18] <ShadwChsr> true, but you did a sample app, not a complete game
[08:03:36] <Servus> turns 16 colours for me at least, i didnt bugger it too long before i tried the dx cursor and found it worked easier
[08:03:45] <Servus> a sample complete game that was incomplete:P
[08:03:52] <ShadwChsr> To be honest I'll probably do my own cursor too, but it will *definately* be in a high (or very high) priority thread
[08:03:53] <Servus> i had the entire ultima7 map rendering in full 3d
[08:04:02] <Servus> slow as a wet turd sliding down a dry rock, but it was there
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[08:05:31] <ShadwChsr> How much of the UW2 project did you code?
[08:05:50] <Servus> none
[08:05:58] <Servus> i made my own, a long time ago
[08:06:11] <Servus> i looked at corens code, and not to be a nitpicker or rude or anything, but thats the messiest thing ive ever seen in my LIFE
[08:06:18] <Servus> i couldnt find the main function:|
[08:06:19] <ShadwChsr> <Servus> im working on UW2:LoW
[08:06:26] <Servus> modelling and graphics :-)
[08:06:30] <ShadwChsr> ahhhhh
[08:06:32] <ShadwChsr> got any screenshots?
[08:06:53] <Servus> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/LoW/muffin6.jpg static objects
[08:07:11] <Servus> his main function externs to something, and then that externs to something else and then THAT externs to something ELSE
[08:07:19] <ShadwChsr> yay
[08:07:21] <Servus> its like he's trying to win an obfuscation award:(
[08:07:36] <ShadwChsr> I'd start finding another project to help with, cause theres no way he's finishing an app like that ;P
[08:07:50] <Servus> it runs well
[08:07:56] <Servus> its very smooth and the physics are nice
[08:08:46] <Servus> there are a few more pics in that folder i just gave you... dont worry about any of the other muffin pics
[08:13:36] <Servus> ok this is strange... my programs working fine in debug, but when i try to run it in release ( it worked fine last night! ) it tries to load my entire harddrive :))
[08:14:42] <ShadwChsr> probably because it's DrWatson-ing the whole app
[08:14:57] <ShadwChsr> I've seen that too, usually a memory leak
[08:15:28] <Servus> nah, i do a full clean and full rebuild on both debug and release, and debug works fine... release is being funny but... strange! just a sec sigh
[08:16:58] <Servus> i reset the entire release configuration menu, and set it back up how it should be and its still being a bugger! ODD!
[08:22:37] <Servus> thats the strangest thing in a long history of strange things... i completely deleted my project and i still have the same problem in Release mode only... oh well *waves and reboots*
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[08:34:59] <Servus> well it appears that my map-loading routine only works in debug mode and not release mode, which is so very ironic because i can only debug it in debug of course :P
[08:35:11] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[08:35:15] <ShadwChsr> Look for memory leaks
[08:35:34] <ShadwChsr> specifically "delete" calls that are deleting deleted pointers
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[08:36:19] <Servus> quite honestly, my map loading routine is incredibly, incredibly messy because of how tired i was when i wrote it -- i wouldnt be surprised to find a half-eaten tunafish sandwich in the middle of it
[08:36:20] <Servus> ack!
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[13:38:18] <Fingolfin> yo
[13:40:48] <wjp> hi Max
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[14:11:53] * Darke waves and notes the almost complete absense of lurkers on the channel.
[14:16:23] <wjp> hi
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[14:28:16] <Colourless> hi
[14:28:23] <Darke> Hi!
[14:29:13] <wjp> hi
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[16:28:45] <Colourless> it was 44.1 degrees here in adelaide today...
[16:32:23] <Colourless> hottest day in like 20 years
[16:45:15] <Darke> Ow. That's... err... rather hot. *grin*
[16:46:43] <Colourless> yeah, just a tad :-)
[17:12:40] * Darke yawns and does the sleep thing. In nice, cool, airconditioning. *grin* Night!
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[17:14:35] <Fingolfin> yo
[17:14:44] <wjp> hi again
[17:14:51] <wjp> g'night DarkeZzz
[17:15:29] <wjp> page 530 in WoT 10...
[17:15:41] <wjp> (i.e., I'll finish it tonight)
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[17:20:15] <Fingolfin> hehe
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[22:58:19] <wjp> *sniff*... finished :/
[23:06:27] <wjp> dreadful cliffhangers at the end
[23:23:16] <Fingolfin> indeed
[23:23:20] <Fingolfin> very painful
[23:23:30] <Fingolfin> all these years we have to wait now for the next part <sigh>
[23:37:52] <wjp> it was kind of weird that it took half the book to get past part 9, chronologically :-)
[23:38:12] <wjp> I guess part 9 focused a lot on Rand himself, so the rest of the plot lines had some catching up to do :-)
[23:39:20] <wjp> hm, WoT was going to be 12 parts, right?