#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 28 Jan 2004 (GMT)

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[00:00:55] <Fingolfin> are you really asleep now?
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[06:25:15] <servus> Does Exult use DLL's? If so, how'd you work with them in Nix?
[06:32:40] <Kirben> No
[06:34:01] <servus> OK, but what's the short answer? :-)
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[10:07:52] <wjp> Fingolfin: yes :-)
[10:38:42] <wjp> weird that the 1.1.9rc1 files don't seem to be on the SF download mirrors yet
[10:41:53] <wjp> according to the site docs the mirror are synced every hour
[10:41:58] <wjp> s/mirror/mirrors/
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[11:39:25] <Colourless> hi
[12:14:17] <wjp> hi
[12:57:00] <wjp> mirrors still don't have the files :/
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[12:58:33] <servus> I don't suppose one could get a free gdb lesson here? :-)
[12:59:04] <wjp> one could try :-)
[13:00:40] <servus> Well I'm just not really sure how to navigate... I do a run and it breaks on my segfault and tells me the responsible call prototype, but an 'l' shows me the very first file, which is really just a stub and certainly not the source of the problem... Why does it not show the actual file and line it errs on?
[13:02:00] <wjp> you should be able to select the current stack frame with 'frame 0'
[13:02:37] <Darke> 'bt' is always useful.
[13:03:03] <wjp> although it really should give the listing of the current function
[13:03:06] <wjp> (and it does, for me)
[13:03:37] <wjp> maybe inlining of library functions is making it think it's currently in a non-existant file
[13:04:08] <servus> Hmm, bt did something a little more useful... but it gave several files and lines! Are the lower-numbered ones the ones I want?
[13:04:19] <wjp> #0 is the top frame
[13:04:34] <servus> And it's useless. :-) #1 then? OK...
[13:04:47] <servus> Ooh I think I may see
[13:05:11] <servus> Darn, it was worth a shot...
[13:05:49] <servus> What editor do you guys use? I want... windows\edit.com :-)
[13:06:02] <wjp> emacs
[13:08:15] <servus> Wee, emacs just crashed.
[13:09:43] <Darke> (bt) The bottom most one is the closest to the point the function crashed, the rest go up the function stack.
[13:10:18] <servus> That can't be right. the bottom most one is int main() :-)
[13:10:24] * Darke uses... uhh... too many editors. kdevelop and vim are the primary ones, gvim under windows is the next used.
[13:10:42] <Darke> Hrm... must have had my memory upside down then. Just a sec...
[13:10:50] <servus> MSVC++'s editor really is superior to anything I've used... and I've used tons.
[13:10:50] * Darke turns his memory the right way up. There.
[13:10:54] <wjp> Darke: yes, you're upside down :-)
[13:11:12] <Darke> servus: Ewwww! That's the worst editor I've ever used in my life.
[13:11:26] <servus> It's got everything these others do and don't have!
[13:11:30] * Darke stands wjp on his head. Problem 2 solved.
[13:11:53] <servus> OK, now gdb is returning actual sourcecode lines for errors... lines that I Didn't write, oh well.
[13:12:01] * wjp wonders why this theorem suddenly isn't making any sense anymore
[13:12:59] <Darke> servus: What particular thing do the other ones have? I've never found anything in msvc's editor that any other editor lacked. In fact vim is more powerful then it. My main grip a bad user interface that seems to shift functions randomly depending upon what's in focus/visible and that you must use a mouse to use it properly.
[13:14:10] <Darke> Besides, what's the point of using a editor that you can't use when the machine you're coding on is on another campus to the one you're at. (Which is how I've been working recently at work. *grin*)
[13:14:18] <servus> The mouse is absolutely not necessary. It has full regexp support, member prompting, superior word/line/paragraph traversal to *anything* else...
[13:15:01] <servus> Oh, I'm fluent enough in vi, but... I keep trying to do move by word, go to the end of a line or paragraph with a keystroke, etc.
[13:15:23] <Darke> Umm... you can do all that in vi. Tried the help pages?
[13:15:41] <servus> Of course. I still have my preference.
[13:16:07] <servus> Besides, I'll never like gdb as much as vc's debugger :-)
[13:16:36] <Darke> I've used MSVC since V4.0, and I've never been impressed with it, even as it slowly adds all the features found in a text editor that's been around far longer then it. *grin*
[13:16:51] <Darke> I don't like gdb or vc's debugger, so you've got me there. *grin*
[13:16:58] <servus> Pleh, edit.com is the best TTY editor I know of... if it just had regexp it'd beat 'em all
[13:17:30] * servus kicks the segfault
[13:17:59] <servus> Agh! emacs forces tab styles! *growls*
[13:18:07] <Darke> In which case you'd want 'pedit' which is a freeware clone that's been around almost as long as edit had. I used to use it lots way back when. *grin*
[13:18:14] <wjp> servus: that's all configurable
[13:18:15] <Darke> Heh.
[13:18:52] <servus> Configuration files are... yech... I just managed to get my video card drivers working, I've had enough of configs for a while :-)
[13:19:10] <servus> Hmm, new error...
[13:19:28] <servus> Xlib: extension "GLX" missing on display ":0.0".
[13:19:40] <servus> Think that's a problem with my XFree86Config though, because even kedit gives 10 of those.
[13:21:20] <Darke> Yeah, you need to add a line looking something like:
[13:21:24] <Darke> Load "glx"
[13:21:33] <Darke> to the "Module" section of your XF86Config file.
[13:21:46] <Darke> If it's not there already.
[13:21:47] <servus> Did that already.
[13:22:16] <servus> Hmm
[13:22:20] <servus> *zaps KDE*
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[13:22:41] <wjp> restarting X would help, yes :-)
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[13:30:49] <Servus> Heh, it works!
[13:31:26] <Servus> My Windows program compiles and runs in Linux... Sure, it segfaults after running a minute, but... err yeah!
[13:31:45] <Servus> Little buggy here :-)
[13:32:42] <Servus> The errors are not very descriptive in gdb at all. :-(
[13:42:16] * Colourless uses MSVC's IDE and me is proud of it. He really doesn't understand all this fuss about text editors. He doesn't need any more features.
[13:43:28] <Servus> Well, I got a very old version to compile.
[13:43:37] <Servus> It looks like crud but doesn't segfault
[13:43:41] * Darke thinks DragonEdit would be a great name for a text editor. If you complain about it, it bites your head off. Simple.
[13:44:13] <Servus> As opposed to bunnyedit?
[13:44:52] <Servus> I wonder what could cause my new version to segfault so much... This one's fine
[13:45:48] <Darke> BunnyEdit would be small, powerful, and reproduce itself insanely, suddenly appearing installed on everyone's machine overnight.
[13:46:07] <Servus> 10 print "I'm a bunny!" goto 10
[13:46:24] <Colourless> it would be a worm
[13:47:11] <Servus> Wormywormywormy.
[13:47:20] <Servus> Time to sleep. I'm being extrasilly
[13:47:31] * Servus waves. Thanks for the GDB advice.
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[13:47:43] <Darke> Nah. That's WormEdit, icky and slimy. BunnyEdit would be cute and friendly, the edit window continually bouncing around the desktop in an endeeringly cute manner.
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[13:49:49] <servus> Whew, back in safe land! *Snoozes*
[13:50:30] * Darke boobytraps servus' bed.
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[13:58:00] <servus> It's true! I can't sleep! There are bouncing bunny boobies in my bed!
[13:58:30] <servus> Well I'm up though... http://www.google.com/search?q=bastards
[13:59:30] <servus> Well. While. Zzz. zzz...really gotta try now, I have midterms today!
[14:11:31] * wjp reloads mirror page yet again
[14:12:23] <wjp> still nothing
[14:31:47] <Colourless> wow, how many hours and still no mirrors
[14:32:00] <wjp> 18 or so
[14:35:41] <wjp> bbl
[14:37:44] <Colourless> i think we should all march on sf calling for the mirrors to be fixed :-)
[15:00:48] * Darke decides to be lazy and just sends in a marching band.
[15:01:14] <Colourless> that would probably be more effective for me if i was on the recieving end
[15:01:57] <Darke> You find marching bands really annoying? Or a tasty snack?
[15:02:16] <Colourless> not my kind of music, no
[15:06:07] * Darke 's flatmate has played 1st/2nd/3rd trumpet on most of the marching bands in brisbane, sometimes multiple bands simultaneously. He'll have to remember to send him down to annoy you. *grin*
[15:06:56] <Colourless> good thing you don't know where i live..... oh wait.... you do know....
[15:07:03] * Darke muhahahahas!
[15:07:51] <Darke> Hrm... is it just me, or is NVidia's 'Quadro' brand just an excuse to charge 10x the price, for a minorly better card?
[15:08:16] <Colourless> actually the card is pretty much the same, the drivers are different :-)
[15:08:59] <Darke> Hrm... yeah, I remember something about that, being able to bios flash a FX to make it a QuadoFX, apparently made an appreciable difference too, just with the new bios and drivers. *grin*
[15:09:25] <Colourless> can't do that trick now
[15:09:58] <Darke> Why not? Did they withdraw the drivers/bios to stop people?
[15:10:27] <Colourless> the Bios isn't the thing used to identify a card as being a Quadro anymore
[15:10:37] <Darke> Ahh.
[15:11:33] <Colourless> ATI is similar with Radeons and FireGL cards.
[15:11:46] <Colourless> same chips, different drivers
[15:12:23] <Colourless> though for ATI the OpenGL driver for the FireGL and Radeon cards is the same
[15:12:48] <Darke> Would figure. Seems really dodgy selling X as Y, but Y costing 10 times the price, I'm surprised people haven't complained.
[15:13:22] <Colourless> what you are buying is certification
[15:14:00] <Darke> That you're certified insane should you purchase it? *grin*
[15:14:26] <Colourless> sure the GeForce card may be able to function fine in say 3DSMax, but the Quadro is the one that has been certified by Kinetix as being usable
[15:17:21] <Darke> So something like, "We won't guarantee our program will work on a cheap-ass graphics card, so give up and purchase one that's the same price as this software, luser."? *grin*
[15:17:36] <Colourless> yes pretty much :-)
[15:18:08] <Colourless> though i think it's more like it's the GFX card companies that might request certifications
[15:18:37] <Colourless> so the GFX care companies are never going to get their consumer card certified
[15:19:48] <Darke> Or perhaps, Kinetix to graphics card makers: "If you don't pay us $(bignum) we'll certify your cheap-ass graphics cards, and then *where* will you be, suckers!? Muhahahaha!"
[15:20:00] <Colourless> hehe
[15:20:23] <Darke> Honestly, that perspective makes a whole lot more sense then the other way around. *grin*
[15:20:29] <Colourless> if only it was like that.
[15:20:53] <Colourless> Reality is cheap ass graphics cards can often (used to be anyway) be quite buggy with professional apps
[15:21:02] <Colourless> not really the case anymore though
[15:21:50] <Colourless> as more and more games begin using what were one less used features of OpenGL, the quality of the OpenGL drivers for the consumer cards needs to improve
[15:21:56] <Colourless> s/one/once/
[15:22:19] <Darke> Yeah. I can see it 4 or 5 years ago, but not really nowdays.
[15:23:05] <Darke> That and the fact the only real difference between the cards is the software, not hardware, pretty much indicates quality for both is quite good.
[15:23:48] <Colourless> ATI FireGL cards have some difference. FireGL cards come with 2 DVI outputs while the consumer Radeon cards come with 1 VGA and 1 DVI
[15:24:17] <Colourless> Quadro's are the same IIRC
[15:25:09] <Colourless> i think there could also be an element of 'status' involved. Professionals would prefer professional cards
[15:26:20] <Darke> Considering you're looking around a $1000 for a lcd monitor with DVI nowdays (since most come only with VGA), spending $2000 for a grapics card for two of them seems moderaly sane.
[15:26:32] <Darke> Yeah, they have egos that need stroking. *grin*
[15:26:32] <Colourless> also different support from the gfx card companies too
[15:27:41] <Colourless> if i were to go I'm having problems with my Radeon in XYZ professional app, I'd probably get buy a FireGL if you want to run XYZ
[15:29:51] * Darke nods.
[15:34:03] * Darke yawns and curls up to sleep. Night!
[15:34:14] <Colourless> night
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[17:50:04] <wjp> hm, the SF support tracker has a few download service issues in it
[17:50:28] <Colourless> heh
[17:51:03] <wjp> (just a few, not dozens like with the cvs-out-of-sync stuff last week)
[17:52:07] <wjp> ooh, it's snowing outside
[17:52:39] <Colourless> sounds cold :-)
[17:52:55] <wjp> well, yes :-)
[17:53:09] <wjp> good thing I've got this nice personal heater called an "Athlon XP" here :-)
[17:53:52] <Colourless> hehe
[17:54:06] <wjp> well, time to file my second SF support request within one week *sigh*
[17:54:22] <wjp> let's see... 22 hours now
[17:56:50] <wjp> hey
[17:56:54] <wjp> twtelecom has it
[17:57:06] <Colourless> ooh!
[17:57:44] <Colourless> you should still file a report though. 22 hours aint good enough
[18:02:20] <wjp> ok, done
[18:05:40] <wjp> um, minor correction: there are dozens of download services support requests
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[18:35:13] <wjp> hi
[18:35:19] <Colourless> hi
[18:35:21] <wjp> and, uh, bye :-) (dinner; bbl)
[18:35:28] <Colourless> :-)
[18:35:31] <WishStone> *waves* ;]
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[19:28:16] <wjp> back
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[19:33:18] <Colourless> wb
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[20:36:45] <wjp> well, still no mirrors, but at least the support request got opened and assigned to someone
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