#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 28 Mar 2003 (GMT)

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[00:35:38] <Matt_O> Servus: really?
[00:41:09] <Servus> yep
[00:48:12] <Matt_O> Servus: did you have any success? hehe
[00:48:26] <Matt_O> my attempts seemed to have absolutely no effect
[00:48:37] <Servus> yep i did, what are you trying to do?
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[00:49:19] <Matt_O> trying to convert a texture from YUV to RGB.. I even calculated the 4x4 matrix necessary to do it
[00:49:27] <Matt_O> then when I tried.. it.. didn't change the colors at all!!
[00:50:28] <Servus> youre trying to change texture coordinates into colour values?
[00:52:52] <Matt_O> no...
[00:53:10] <Matt_O> texture coordinates? I don't get it
[00:53:14] <Servus> or from a YUV colour scheme that i apparently havent had much experience with
[00:53:26] <Matt_O> well you don't really need to think about the YUV part
[00:53:37] <Matt_O> I'd still have the same problem if I were trying to change from RGB to BGR
[00:53:41] <Servus> TUV (sometimes called YUV) are the x/y/z equivalents of texture coordinate generation
[00:53:44] <Matt_O> so you can approach the problem from that angle if it helps
[00:55:25] <Servus> why cant you change the values in an image editor? or change the format as you load it, before you make textures out of them?
[00:55:43] <Matt_O> I can
[00:56:25] <Matt_O> but I am expecting that using the matrix will be a lot faster than using the cpu to make the changes
[00:56:40] <Matt_O> so it's a speed consideration
[00:57:53] <Servus> not if you make those changes at the init only
[00:58:01] <Servus> or why not just edit the data files so that they are RGB?
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[03:59:39] <Zxcvb> how many bits is the usecode "CPU"?
[04:00:21] <Zxcvb> that is, if you were to make a CPU to run usecode instructions natively, would it be 16 bit, 8 bit, or 32 bit?
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[04:49:54] <Colourless> Matt_O are you absolutely sure your opengl stuff is anything 'near' correct. As far as I know (knew), there isn't such a thing as a colour matrix to apply transform your colours. Doing such a thing requires using a fragment shader
[04:52:37] <Matt_O> Colourless: no I am not sure at all
[04:53:05] <Colourless> care to let me look at your code?
[04:54:01] <Matt_O> I only have it at work, but I can point you to some "example" code I was trying out that seemed to also have no effect
[04:54:13] <Colourless> ok
[04:55:25] <Matt_O> http://openglforums.com/tutorials/tutorial6.html
[04:55:29] <Matt_O> ok the sample program at the bottom
[04:55:41] <Matt_O> glScalef(0.5,2.0,1.0); // Scale r*=0.5, g*=2.0, b*=1.0
[04:56:00] <Matt_O> changing this line to any arbitrary value seemed to have no effect whatsoever on the ATI Rage 128 at work
[04:56:12] <Colourless> GL_ARB_imaging extension is required
[04:56:19] <Colourless> do you have that?
[04:56:43] <Matt_O> well I really don't know
[04:58:31] <Matt_O> I'm assuming "no" hehehe
[04:58:35] <Matt_O> (at least for the Rage)
[04:58:48] <Matt_O> brb, rebooting
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[05:14:57] <Yuv422> Yay! http://nuvie.sourceforge.net/screenshots/working.png
[05:15:51] <Colourless> impressive
[05:17:10] <Yuv422> still got to implement look through windows. :)
[05:17:43] <Yuv422> and I'm still displaying actors in the blacked out areas. :(
[05:17:53] <Yuv422> but that's not hard to fix.
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[05:41:22] <Matt_O> Colourless: I just tried that sample code and it's now working on my geforce3
[05:41:27] <Matt_O> wretched Rage 128
[05:42:06] <Colourless> you will probably find that your cpu is still doing the work
[05:42:17] <Matt_O> I hope not
[05:42:30] <Colourless> the matrix only effects texture uploads and other pixel related functions
[05:42:47] <Colourless> it *shouldn't* be doing anything to the actual rendering
[05:43:08] <Matt_O> texture uploads are what I am interested in affecting
[05:44:03] <Colourless> you are still going to need to write a function to do the uploading for users that don't have that extension (such as all ATI users)
[05:45:02] <Matt_O> hehe
[05:45:19] <Matt_O> I plan on just saying "Sorry, your video card doesn't support this"
[05:45:48] <Colourless> i would say you are being just a bit lazy :-)
[05:46:36] <Matt_O> then you'd make that statement under a few assumptions which may not be ... accurate :)
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[06:30:06] <Servus> Peopleses, my precious!
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[07:39:59] <Servus> h';p
[07:40:01] <Servus> h'lo even
[08:18:08] <ShadwChsr> hi :)
[08:18:17] <ShadwChsr> I'm doin some major game archetecture redesign :)
[08:21:32] <Servus> cool
[08:21:36] <Servus> screenshots?
[08:25:21] <ShadwChsr> not et
[08:25:22] <ShadwChsr> yet
[08:25:32] <ShadwChsr> I'm programming a core framework that can run any game
[08:26:02] <ShadwChsr> A task manager (as opposed to hardcoding tasks), a system manager, etc
[08:26:20] <ShadwChsr> Before I had a nasty mix of singleton objects and a class hierarchy
[08:26:33] <Servus> ah, cool
[08:26:36] <Servus> im still working on my quadtree :-(
[08:26:36] <ShadwChsr> now I've changed it to be mostly Object-Composition
[08:26:44] <Servus> im gonna be so glad when im satisfied with this nasty thing
[08:26:53] <ShadwChsr> I figured out how to stop it from including my ENTIRE source tree everywhere with that method
[08:27:02] <ShadwChsr> pure virtual classes - duh!
[08:27:02] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[08:27:11] <ShadwChsr> Got a good book on the subject :)
[08:28:06] <ShadwChsr> This should take my code to the next level
[08:28:28] <ShadwChsr> It makes my game moduler too
[08:28:33] <Servus> hehe
[08:28:38] <ShadwChsr> modular
[08:28:38] <ShadwChsr> ;P
[08:28:47] <ShadwChsr> I can swap in a different gamesystem with one line of code :)
[08:29:14] <Servus> hehe
[08:29:26] <Servus> im gonna have mine point to a folder that has all necessary game stuff
[08:29:32] <Servus> so you just load a different folder and the engine runs a diff game
[08:29:41] <ShadwChsr> Yeah mine already does that
[08:29:42] <ShadwChsr> :)
[08:31:50] <Servus> still worrying about my terrain*sigh*
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[08:37:05] <Servus> wb
[08:37:13] <Yuv422> :)
[08:37:36] * Yuv422 targets another graphic glitch in Nuvie.
[08:38:33] <Servus> hows the walls going?
[08:38:55] <Yuv422> did you see my latest pic?
[08:39:21] <Servus> no
[08:39:23] <Servus> dont think so
[08:39:38] <Yuv422> http://nuvie.sourceforge.net/screenshots/working.png
[08:40:36] <Servus> ah, neat-o :-)
[08:40:42] <Servus> what was the missing link?
[08:41:12] <Yuv422> the order of the wall tiles in the tileset.
[08:41:56] <Servus> cool; youre moving along very very fast :-)
[08:42:08] <Yuv422> :)
[08:42:14] <Servus> ever thought of... converting u6 maps to u7 engine? :-D
[08:42:20] <Yuv422> still a few bugs in the blacking to fix.
[08:42:42] <Servus> have you even scratched the conversation surface yet?
[08:45:06] <Yuv422> I know how to get at each actor's conversion data. but I haven't looked into the codes that drive the conversaion.
[08:46:48] <Servus> itll probably be yucky compression considering u6 fits on one disk :-p
[08:47:24] <Yuv422> the conversion data is lzw compressed
[08:47:35] <Yuv422> like so many files in U6
[08:48:04] <Servus> ah, well at least you know the compression scheme then :)
[08:48:20] <Servus> i believe underworld used a custom huffman compression scheme?
[08:48:47] <Yuv422> I don't think the conversations will be too hard. ;)
[08:49:08] <Servus> ok
[08:49:17] <Servus> spam spam spam humbug!
[08:49:31] <Servus> Thou shouldst ask Shamino about that.
[08:49:44] <Yuv422> hmm now I think that is hardcoded. ;)
[08:50:29] <Servus> Humbug!
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[09:32:33] <wjp> hi
[09:33:14] <Servus> hi
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[09:35:32] <Darke> Hi!
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[09:36:35] <Yuv422> hey
[09:37:32] <frogger> hi
[09:37:44] <Servus> hihi
[09:37:44] <Dark-Star> hi
[09:37:50] <Servus> it's some sort of hi orgy
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[10:15:20] <Servus> heeehee, my terrain system is better than colourlesses ^^
[10:15:50] * Darke thinks other types of orgies would be more fun. *wizenod* But this is a family channel... *grin*
[10:17:15] <Darke> Servus: Oooooh.
[10:17:41] <Yuv422> is a static variable per instance or per class if defined in a method?
[10:18:19] <Darke> Per function/method of defined in a function/method. Per class if defined in a class body.
[10:19:00] <Yuv422> hmm so does that mean if I define it in a function body then a new var will be created per instance of the class?
[10:19:13] <wjp> no
[10:19:38] <Servus> if defined in a method, it's per instance
[10:19:48] <Yuv422> ah k I'll use a instance var instead then.
[10:19:59] <wjp> Servus: no, it isn't
[10:20:03] <Yuv422> hmm you guys seem to be saying different things. ;)
[10:20:06] <Servus> oh yes yes!
[10:20:25] <Servus> ive spent the last week SOLID on recursive structures (which uses tons of static-defined-in-method vars)
[10:21:59] <wjp> just wrote a test program
[10:22:05] <wjp> it's per class; not per instance
[10:22:22] <Yuv422> it's per class in Obj-C too.
[10:24:50] <wjp> lol... some students here are apparently organizing a protest against entropy?!
[10:25:29] <Darke> Cool!
[10:25:50] <Darke> Can I join? Or would my randomness just be counterproductive? *grin*
[10:26:12] <wjp> I wonder if it's a sarcastic comment on the enormous amount of protests the last month
[10:26:26] <Yuv422> be back later
[10:26:36] <wjp> (several against the war, against proposed cuts on education spending, etc...)
[10:26:48] <Darke> wjp: My bet is on the 'sarcastic comment'. *grin*
[10:27:41] * Darke has had a "too many protests, no longer care" reaction to the last couple of protests down here, it's just getting a *little* silly.
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[10:28:19] <Quester> hi all
[10:28:40] <Darke> Hiya.
[10:28:48] <wjp> hi
[10:29:40] <Quester> wjp, I not yet correct char type, - can't compile exult under MSVC.net
[10:29:51] <Quester> but now i try do it in minwg
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[10:31:02] <Quester> I must use msys, or it optional?
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[10:39:55] <Quester> I must use msys for compile exult, or it optional?
[10:40:15] <Darke> I don't think it's necessary. But I haven't compiled exult on windows in ages.
[10:41:22] <Quester> I try compile without msys and get error on zip.c compile - system cant specify file
[10:48:35] <Darke> Hmm... maybe ask Kirbin when he unidles?
[10:49:56] <Quester> Kirbin, what you say?
[10:51:01] <Kirben> what are you trying to compile ?
[10:51:10] <Quester> exult
[10:51:15] <Quester> i dont install msys
[10:51:45] <Quester> mingw32-make.exe -f makefile.mingw install
[10:53:20] <Quester> all, else msys, like in readme.win32
[10:53:58] <Kirben> What is the exact error ?
[10:58:10] <Quester> ystem cant specify file
[10:58:33] <Quester> then compile zip.c to zip.o
[10:58:42] <Quester> i don't know what file
[10:58:49] <Quester> in message only this
[11:00:14] <Kirben> Did you install exult_dev_win32.zip ?
[11:00:25] <Quester> yes
[11:00:51] <Quester> I install all, wrote in readme.win32
[11:01:01] <Quester> but dont install msys
[11:01:25] <Quester> maybe I must add zlib for mingw from zlib site?
[11:01:51] <Kirben> No they are included in exult_dev_win32.zip
[11:02:14] <Kirben> There should be a zlib.h in include directory of mingw and libz.a in lib directory of mingw.
[11:02:19] <Quester> yes, is it
[11:05:20] <Quester> maybe msys is necessary?
[11:05:30] <Kirben> only for install and studio.
[11:05:46] <Kirben> should compile without msys.
[11:06:39] <Quester> "mingw32-make.exe -f makefile.mingw install" - it make install?
[11:08:24] <Kirben> It only installs after compile is complete.
[11:08:39] <Kirben> so would not matter.
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[11:12:46] <Servus> ok... im having a bad day so far...
[11:12:51] <Servus> my car is _out_ of oil :-/
[11:13:45] <wjp> hm, from my enormous experience *cough* with car mechanics I would guess that's a bad thing? :-)
[11:14:17] <Servus> extremely bad
[11:14:30] <Servus> it's not suppose to go out of your car at all
[11:14:32] <Servus> but im out
[11:14:51] <wjp> so it's leaking somewhere?
[11:15:43] <Servus> its nighttime, but im pretty sure the ground under the car is dry
[11:23:33] <Servus> :-/ and i wanted to go get food
[12:13:29] <Yuv422> have you guys seen this!? http://www.geocities.com/galleondragon/
[12:14:53] <Servus> nope havent seen that but it's mighty nice looking
[12:15:37] <Darke> Yeah. Wasn't this mentioned on the forum recently?
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[12:16:05] <Yuv422> Yeah, that's where I found the link.
[12:17:27] <Yuv422> hmm maybe we can share our U6 knowledge and both get working engines faster. :)
[12:18:08] <Servus> "expected to be completed by june 2003", nearly there
[12:19:19] <Yuv422> I've got no ETA on Nuvie. :)
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[12:48:01] <Colourless> hi
[12:48:03] <wjp> hi
[12:48:31] <Yuv422> hi
[12:51:43] <Yuv422> Colourless: you might remember. How did you get to the gargolyle world in the game?
[12:51:49] <Colourless> care to explain what this means:
[12:51:49] <Colourless> [10:15:20] <Servus> heeehee, my terrain system is better than colourlesses ^^
[12:52:00] <Colourless> Yuv422 you had to go through dungeons
[12:52:12] <Yuv422> did you go down then up?
[12:52:25] <Colourless> i can't remember
[12:52:33] <Yuv422> ah
[12:52:41] <wjp> I think you went all the way down
[12:52:43] <Colourless> you had to go through multiple levels of dungones
[12:53:05] <Colourless> you exited by a cave in the underworld
[12:53:18] <Colourless> multiple ways to enter from britannia from memory
[12:53:18] <Yuv422> I'm trying to work out how U6 connects ladders and dungeon enterences
[12:53:47] <Yuv422> the object entries for the ladders don't have any info in them :(
[12:54:48] <wjp> Colourless: are you working on a terrain system?
[12:54:51] <Colourless> talking about static variables before... now tell me this, what happens when you use static variables in templated classes and functions :-)
[12:54:59] <Colourless> wjp: not as far as I knew :-)
[12:55:19] <wjp> Colourless: that would explain why Servus' is better than ;-)
[12:55:33] * Yuv422 is scared of templates
[12:55:39] <wjp> s/than/, then/
[12:57:01] <Dark-Star> yuv: want to kill some more bugs in nuvie? For example in U6List.h, there's still that "typedef" that shouldn't be
[12:57:27] <Yuv422> ah k
[12:57:49] <Dark-Star> and Event::use doesn't return a value...
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[12:59:11] <Yuv422> Dark-Star: Fixed.
[12:59:16] <wjp> Yuv422: I'm also getting some 'x may be used uninitialized' warnings
[12:59:26] <Dark-Star> yes, I killed those already ;-)
[12:59:32] <Colourless> hu
[12:59:32] <Fingolfin> hiya
[12:59:36] <Dark-Star> in ActorManager::loadActors() you should do "actors[i]->id_n = i & 0xff;" instead of "actors[i]->id_n = i;" (or typecast i to uint8)
[12:59:37] <wjp> hi Max
[13:00:21] <Dark-Star> the same goes for Actor::get_location(), the line "*ret_level = z;"
[13:01:19] <Dark-Star> maybe you could even declare Actor::z as uint8 instead of uint16 (there are some more missing typecasts there)
[13:01:56] <Yuv422> yeah just done that. :)
[13:02:04] <Colourless> Yuv422: do the maps by any chance directly line up with each other?
[13:02:40] <Yuv422> heheh surely not? maybe only for ladders.
[13:02:44] <Yuv422> let me check. :)
[13:03:05] <Yuv422> wjp: where were those warnings coming from? :)
[13:03:27] <wjp> ObjManager.cpp:221: warning: `uint16 tile_num' might be used uninitialized
[13:03:35] <wjp> MapWindow.cpp:235: warning: `uint16 sc_x' might be used uninitialized
[13:03:45] <wjp> (same for sc_(x/y/w/z))
[13:04:01] <wjp> misc/U6LList.cpp:70: warning: `U6Link*prev' might be used uninitialized
[13:04:16] <wjp> files/U6Lzw.cpp:114: warning: `int pW' might be used uninitialized
[13:04:26] <wjp> files/U6Lzw.cpp:214: warning: `unsigned char*destination_buffer' might be...
[13:04:49] <Yuv422> argh, the shame... :(
[13:09:52] * Yuv422 thinks it's time to add the -Wall switch to his build style. ;)
[13:10:15] <Dark-Star> -Wall is always a good idea ;-)
[13:10:53] <Dark-Star> btw, nuvie doesn't work with Savage Empire, seems that maptiles.vga is different
[13:11:22] <Yuv422> yeah maptiles.vga is only compressed on U6.
[13:12:19] <Colourless> -pedantic too
[13:12:52] <Servus> colourless
[13:13:10] <Servus> my terrain system lets you see a map as big as morrowind's _without_ a far clipping plane
[13:13:23] <Servus> at 70fps on a geforce2mx
[13:14:05] <Colourless> but how does this relate to me :-)
[13:14:28] <Servus> well i was making a comparison between our terrain engines, that's all...
[13:14:28] <Yuv422> Servus: I heard that Colourless' system was 5x further.
[13:14:34] <Servus> have you experimented with texture splatting?
[13:14:41] <Servus> adaptive quadtrees?
[13:15:06] <Colourless> but i don't have a terrain engine
[13:15:33] <Servus> yes i read that you are simply loading meshes
[13:15:40] <Servus> but then you said you used heightmaps?
[13:16:13] <Servus> all the quads/tris in your current terrain are the same size right now, right?
[13:16:33] <Colourless> when?
[13:17:23] <Servus> on your website? *shrugs*
[13:17:39] <Darke> Colourless: I'm *shocked*! Dilly-dallying around with projects *other* then pentagram and exult?!? How *dare* you!
[13:18:20] * Darke sends out a general warning he's out of his mind tonight. Step away slowly. *grin*
[13:18:39] <Colourless> i once had something resembling a terrain engine, about 3 years ago or something, but it wasn't designed for infinite clipping planes
[13:18:41] * wjp starts to step away slowly, but then realizes that may be exactly what Darke wants
[13:18:52] <Darke> wjp: *innocentlook*
[13:18:52] <Colourless> Darke, you don't have a mind I think
[13:18:53] <Servus> hmm, i must be mistaken then
[13:19:23] <Darke> Colourless: Umm... I'll check. *looks in drawer* Umm... no, it's clearly here in a jar in my desk.
[13:19:44] <wjp> wouldn't that mean that your mind is out of you? (not that you're out of your mind?)
[13:20:26] * Darke watches his mind bop around in the jar to unheard music. "Umm... err... probably. The effect is the same I think though. *noddle*"
[13:20:35] <Servus> maybe im confusing you with telemachos, colourless *ducks* :-)
[13:22:05] <Servus> heck, no ones interested in my nifty terrain engine, guess ill have to put naked girls in it
[13:22:10] <Colourless> :-)
[13:22:12] <Servus> or naked female wolves in it for some ppl here :-p
[13:22:25] <wjp> we have wolves here?
[13:22:36] <Colourless> we have rabbits and some dragons
[13:22:39] * wjp sees a dragon (or rather, doesn't "see" a dragon) and a rabbit
[13:24:10] <Servus> awww it's 5:30am i cant keep dragons rabbits and wolves apart
[13:24:36] * Darke hears a female dragon in his mind catagoricly refuse to pose and he's... err... a bunny. *noddle*
[13:25:00] * wjp fails to parse that sentence properly
[13:25:13] <Darke> Woo!
[13:25:16] * wjp doesn't get it, either :-)
[13:25:52] <Darke> wjp: One of my roleplaying characters is a female dragon. Make more sense?
[13:26:13] <wjp> slightly, yes :-)
[13:26:22] <Colourless> darke has no gender bias :-)
[13:26:54] <Servus> i thoughtyou were a wolf :-p
[13:27:01] <Darke> wjp: And since Servus was under particular impressions, the logical conclusion was that he was going to add female dragons into it, thus the comment. *grin*
[13:27:10] <Servus> most furry chatters i know are wolves, apologies :-)
[13:27:10] <Darke> Colourless: That's a nice way of putting it. *grin*
[13:27:23] * Servus hides :-(
[13:27:25] <wjp> there's also a leopard cub around here sometimes
[13:27:34] <Darke> Servus: *snicker* No problem.
[13:31:24] <Colourless> ha, found it. this is unimpressiveness of my terrain 'engine' from years ago... ignore the obvious sillyness, if possible :-) http://www.users.on.net/triforce/mouse.jpg
[13:32:13] <wjp> ignoring that mouse cursor is rather hard :-)
[13:33:05] <Colourless> hey, it's an example of scaling a polygonal mouse cursor :-)
[13:33:31] <Colourless> yes, it's just a 'little' large and obstructs lots, but hey, it's be best i can do for now :-)
[13:33:55] * Darke weighs Colourless on a Mouse Scale. It would seem the dragon weighs about 200 'Mouse's.
[13:35:06] <Colourless> yeah real funny, mr/ms computer game cross dresser ;-)
[13:35:11] <Servus> hehe
[13:35:33] <Servus> i just had to see if Frigidazzi would sleep with a girl, alright!!!
[13:35:37] <Colourless> then again, you may be talking about other types of role playing ;-)
[13:36:03] <Darke> Colourless: *innocentlook*
[13:36:14] <Colourless> my thoughts exactly...
[13:36:33] <Servus> my cars outta oil! Yar! How disturbing!
[13:36:59] * Darke mumbles something about Servus and a one-track mind. *grin*
[13:37:38] <Servus> two-track mind, thank you very much!
[13:37:49] <Yuv422> hmm time for bed.
[13:37:52] <Yuv422> cya.
[13:38:09] <wjp> night
[13:38:14] <Yuv422> may the best Terrain engine win! *g*
[13:38:15] <Servus> night
[13:38:19] <Colourless> so darke, in games, what do you play as male or female, since that probably wasn't the sort of role playing you were actually meaning :-)
[13:38:21] <Servus> :P
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[13:38:35] <Colourless> mine has the best mouse cursor. wins be default :-)
[13:38:50] <Colourless> so what, if the engine was slow, and looked like crap :-)
[13:39:12] * Darke laughs.
[13:39:37] <Colourless> s/be/by/
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[13:40:11] <wjp> "mine has the byst mouse cursor."? ;-P
[13:40:12] <Darke> Colourless: *parseparseparse* Define 'games'. *grin* FPSes/CRPGs and such?
[13:40:27] <Colourless> general, all combined :-)
[13:40:28] <Servus> you get to pick your name/gender in FPS's?
[13:40:39] <Servus> ok, ultima 7, what gender/name?
[13:40:42] <Colourless> servus: of course you do :-)
[13:40:56] <Servus> i'm gordon :-/
[13:41:00] <Colourless> what we have here is an example of advanced tech in my engine, it's a shadow: http://www.users.on.net/triforce/av/snap001.jpg
[13:41:02] <Darke> Servus: Depends really on your fps. StarTrek Voyager: Elite Force had a nice token male/female swap.
[13:41:15] <Colourless> you were still Alex though :-)
[13:41:20] <Darke> Colourless: Ooooooh.
[13:41:27] <Darke> Colourless: Like I said, 'token'. *grin*
[13:41:55] <Darke> Colourless: Different voice actor and a nice Alexander/Alexandera (IIRC) with everyone calling you 'Alex'. *grin*
[13:41:57] <Colourless> Deus Ex 2 is going to do the same, and guess what, you are Alex in that game too :-)
[13:42:09] <Darke> Colourless: Wow. How... creative!
[13:42:16] <Colourless> Alex Denton, Bother/Sister of Paul and JC :-)
[13:42:28] <Servus> hehe
[13:42:42] <Servus> very ultima-8-ish :-)
[13:42:54] <Darke> You think they could have used a name that's not already used. Patrick/Patricia is another quick swap.
[13:42:54] <Servus> im getting sick of making my fancy terrain engine tho :-)
[13:43:09] <Colourless> now darke, you still are yet to answer the question :-)
[13:43:11] <Servus> if i were making a 3d graphics engine for ultima8, i'd be done by now
[13:43:27] <Servus> nearly _all_ male names have a female counterpart...
[13:44:03] <Colourless> the 'engine' really had nothing to do with ultima8, i just had an animated avatar model on my hard drive, so i used that for testing :-)
[13:44:34] <Colourless> i think you are exaggarating with nearly
[13:45:16] <Servus> but if i were doing a fixed-camera thing such as the graphics engine for an improved ultima 8, i'd be done by now
[13:45:44] <Servus> nearly all of my work nowadays is making my engine work while looking straight at the horizon ( i dont want some nasty heavy wall of fog an eigth mile ahead of me...
[13:46:04] <Servus> i want to see mountains miles and miles away, and i think i will accomplish that
[13:46:04] <Darke> Colourless: Erm... what do you mean by "what do you play"? I played 'the game' as male/female. U7 I played with both, ST: Voyager I played through with the female, most of the crpgs (Dungeon Siege, Baulders Gate, SSI gold box games, etc) I play with a mixed party.
[13:46:21] <Servus> U7 which gender did u play first?
[13:46:29] <Darke> Servus: Sounds good.
[13:47:06] <Colourless> Servus: well so far, things are looking good for you
[13:47:06] <Darke> Servus: Umm... *ponder* *thinkthinkthink* Erm... I'm honestly not sure, you are talking, what, 10 years ago? *grin*
[13:47:40] <Colourless> Darke: you know what... me too ;-)
[13:47:51] <Servus> good for me, how so?
[13:48:12] <Servus> i beat the original u7 (no exult) 3 weeks ago
[13:48:14] <Colourless> i was talking about your engine
[13:48:46] <Servus> i know but it's so hard to get people to talk about it that i was milking the issue :-)
[13:49:28] <Darke> Colourless: Odds are it would have been female though, since I was playing through a few of the older SSI gold box games at the time, where there were penalties for female characters (IIRC, could only get 75% of 'super' strength, rather then 100% like males), so I was getting sick of thinking up male names and playing male characters. *grin*
[13:49:42] <Colourless> hehe
[13:50:13] <Darke> In the end though, you'd pick up enough 'gauntlets of the...' to give your party 19/20/21/22 strength anyway on the characters that count, so it wasn't really all that much of a problem.
[13:51:07] <Darke> The later Dragon Lance and Forgotton ones got *really* silly though with magical items to the point you'd be discarding a whole pile of really nice magical items with almost each combat.
[13:51:47] <wjp> sounds like some of the later Might & Magic games :-)
[13:51:58] <Servus> pleh
[13:52:07] <Servus> m&m2, though, was insanely hard
[13:52:21] <wjp> I only played 6-8
[13:52:37] * wjp wonders if the earlier ones run in dosbox
[13:52:46] <Darke> wjp: I wouldn't know, got stuck about half way through M&M8 because I was pushing ahead to fast and not getting the experience and skills on the right charaters. And M&M7 is *insanely* difficult to start off with.
[13:53:14] <Darke> Haven't finished M&M9 simply because my savegames are at my parents house on their computer, and I keep forgetting to grab them when I'm over there. *grin*
[13:53:23] <wjp> oh, there's an M&M9? :-)
[13:53:31] <Servus> m&m's get worse and worse each time -- and they all have the __EXACT_SAME_STORY__
[13:53:50] <wjp> actually... 8 had a somewhat different story
[13:54:03] <Servus> did you end up in an alien spacecraft of some sort?
[13:54:05] <Darke> wjp: Yep. Uses the LithTech engine.
[13:54:06] <wjp> I was really surprised when 'The Plot Twist'(TM) didn't show up
[13:54:32] * Darke wanted to finish 7 just to get to see the spaceship at the end. Just didn't get into it.
[13:54:42] <wjp> 8 didn't have a spaceship...
[13:55:10] <wjp> (or I think it was 8, anyway)
[13:55:21] <Darke> 8 afaik, doesn't have a spaceship.
[13:55:23] <Servus> no super-technical-advanced-long-lost race you find at the end?
[13:55:27] <wjp> no :-)
[13:55:30] <Servus> hmm
[13:55:31] <wjp> hence my surprise :-)
[13:55:35] <Servus> all the ones i played had that
[13:55:49] <wjp> there was even a perfect spot for it to be inserted
[13:56:07] <wjp> there was this timevault or Vault of Time thingie that you could finally open at the end
[13:56:12] * Darke quite liked 8, 9 is... pretty and relatively 'easy' as far as gameplay, but just feels like it was pushed out the door *really* unfinished. Lots of little stuff missing.
[13:56:14] <Servus> m&m2 was terribly difficult there... the Cuisinarts in the Lost Pyramid of Really Sharp Things had 65536 HP and could disintegrate anyone on a shot :-p
[13:56:19] <Darke> *nod* Vault of Time I believe.
[13:56:26] <wjp> so I was expecting it to lead to a spaceship
[13:56:33] <wjp> but instead it only contained some magic items
[13:56:49] <wjp> (I think none of it was really great)
[13:57:36] <Servus> http://4.60.125.19/images/misc/Engine21.jpg El Engine
[13:58:39] <wjp> the Lost Pyramid of Really Sharp Things? :-)
[13:59:19] <Servus> well i couldnt remember the technical term for it :-)
[13:59:27] <Servus> it was right next to Pegasus and the city of Vulcan
[13:59:36] <Servus> and the big fat crater of Dead People (tm)
[13:59:38] <Colourless> hehe
[13:59:53] * Darke really wished he'd got the 'World of Xeen' one way back then. He had a text walkthrough of everything and the game seemed to be real fun and creative, he never saw it in the shops around here. I wonder if anyone's done a remake of it.
[14:00:36] <Colourless> Servus, how do you do lighting?
[14:00:44] <Servus> lightmaps
[14:00:55] <Servus> i have worlds of xeen
[14:01:01] <Darke> Then again, given the fact 6-8 are reportedly almost as non-data driven as you can get a game, I would presume the previous ones in the series are similarly done, so no doubt it's non-trivial.
[14:01:11] <Servus> worlds of xeen was fun
[14:01:27] <wjp> bbl
[14:01:30] <Darke> Bye.
[14:01:52] <Servus> the picture i showed you is _only_ a lightmap, without an underlying texture, colourless... i currently have a base texture with a lightmap ontop of it, next im gonna add detail textures and texture splatting (alpha-blended decals)
[14:02:03] <Colourless> Servus: looks like you are overbrighting, modulate2x or are you doing something different?
[14:02:12] <Servus> http://4.60.125.19/images/misc/Engine24.jpg current system (it's a little muddy looking
[14:02:36] <Servus> i turned up the contrast of the lightmap in photoshop, and just used modulate (1x)
[14:02:43] <Colourless> ah, that would make sense as to why it was so bright :-)
[14:03:17] <Colourless> the lightmap looks a lot like the lighting used in Giants Citizen Kabuto
[14:03:49] <Colourless> textured picture looks more than just a little bit more realistic :-)
[14:04:14] <Servus> it's muddy though
[14:04:34] <Colourless> thats the fault of the texture :-)
[14:04:37] <Servus> and only one base texture
[14:04:41] <Servus> the textures really nice :P
[14:05:32] <Servus> http://4.60.125.19/images/misc/grass.jpg here it is... tiles perfectly and is now my wallpaper :-)
[14:12:15] <Servus> http://4.60.125.19/images/misc/Engine26.jpg maybe this ones better?
[14:13:49] <Colourless> yeah thats better
[14:13:59] <Colourless> now, i have to wonder, what are you generating your terrain from?
[14:14:37] <Servus> a grayscale heightmap
[14:14:46] <Colourless> of what though
[14:15:25] <Colourless> of anything in particular, your terrain seems rather... sharp
[14:16:55] <Servus> it's part of the grand canyon
[14:17:23] <Servus> http://4.60.125.19/images/misc/Engine25.jpg
[14:18:21] <Colourless> not too bad, but you need higher resolution textures (and or detail textures) and aniostropic filtering
[14:19:33] <Servus> ill be using detail textures
[14:19:44] <Servus> and texturesplatting
[14:21:59] <Colourless> here is a screenshot from giants, showing some extreme overbright lighting, and look, it *does* have a naked girl in the shot http://www.users.on.net/triforce/giants.jpg
[14:23:42] <Servus> ooh nekkid girls
[14:23:45] <Servus> i need a prettier sky
[14:24:00] <Servus> i think im gonna do it like morrowind, where theres a base sky texture, with clouds rolling over it
[14:24:04] * Darke gasps! Noooo! I'm going blind! Oh. It's just 'cause of the overbright. Never mind. *innocentlook*
[14:24:55] * Darke thinks that looks like a pretty game. He's never played it though, what's it like?
[14:25:42] <Colourless> i though your sky was alright, better than some games
[14:26:22] <Colourless> i'm guessing it's a good thing i didn't use the 'special camera' mode by pressing the 'F' key
[14:27:07] <Colourless> giants is pretty fun, with some rather amusing humour (note that it must have a 'u' since it's rather british humour)
[14:27:29] <Darke> Ahh. I should probably keep on the lookout for a copy then. *grin*
[14:27:39] <Darke> Special camera mode?
[14:27:49] <Colourless> it goes real cheap now
[14:27:56] <Colourless> i got it for $10
[14:28:21] * Darke will have to hunt through the budget games then. It's no doubt there.
[14:32:39] <Servus> well shoot im dead tired and the suns up :-(
[14:33:01] <Servus> night all
[14:33:05] <Darke> Night!
[14:33:22] <Servus> night darke, night colourless, night all
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[14:36:33] <Colourless> here's an example of special camera mode while riding a reaperski http://www.users.on.net/triforce/giants3.jpg
[14:42:28] <Dark-Star> wjp: Just tried it, M&M4 and 5 don't run in dosbox...
[14:43:39] <Dark-Star> ...although they run natively under Win XP, actually quite well
[14:44:53] <Dark-Star> They're using some very 'difficult' file format, I tried deciphering it some time ago to get the sounds etc., without success
[14:45:17] <Darke> Colourless: Ahh. Half naked female and a 'front' view cunningly conceiled by a reaperski. *grin* What rating did Giants get anyway? Or does pixelated female nudity not increase the rating scale much. *grin*
[14:46:31] <Darke> Dark-Star: I think you'll find that the 'datafiles' are actually literal memory-structure dumps to a file. Similar to what U8 did with it's savegames. *grin*
[14:46:49] <Colourless> well, it works like this, the game, when released, had a half ass patch applied (which put a bikini top on delphi). of course the patching process is very easily reversed by just deleting a single file :-)
[14:48:04] <Darke> Colourless: *snerk*
[14:48:37] * Darke figures just *which* file is detailed on many internet sites and newsgrope postings. *grin*
[14:48:57] <Dark-Star> Darke: Yes, that might be. They're not compressed, but I haven't found any offset tables or something similar inside :-(
[14:51:53] <Darke> Dark-Star: There probably won't be any offset tables. From what I've seen of 6-8, all structure sizes are more-or-less statically defined. For example there are certain hard limits to the items/etc filling maps/inventory/etc.
[14:53:07] <Darke> Dark-Star: And the rest of the information would be 'stored' in the .exe as a "read X entries of Y bytes into memory pointer Z as graphics, then read... as inventory, then read..." type of thing. It's very frustrating. *grin*
[14:53:35] <Colourless> Darke: because I like you here is a shot from the front, but of course, it's the 'patched' version http://www.users.on.net/triforce/giants4.jpg of course I have put up an 'unpatched' image, but you'll just have to guess it's filename :-)
[14:54:24] <Colourless> and that's the last pic from giants that i'm going to post
[14:54:33] <Dark-Star> Darke: Yes, it seems one would need to disassemble the whole exe file... Not something I'm very good in...
[14:55:57] <Darke> Colourless: *gasp!* She has nipples! Curse you, I shall never see again! *grin*
[14:56:31] <Colourless> hehe
[14:56:37] <Darke> Dark-Star: Shouldn't be too much of a problem to run it in a debugger like IDA then just locate the part when it opens the file and slowly walk through from there. Painful and slow but you'll get what you want. *grin*
[14:57:06] <Colourless> and you'll turn into someone like Darke, or myself
[14:57:47] <Darke> Colourless: You can tell that they just 'hacked' on that bikini it just doesn't look 'right', though the choker bit looks cute.
[14:58:08] <Darke> Dark-Star: Listen to Colourless. Be afraid, very afraid. *grin*
[14:59:07] <Colourless> Darke: yeah, it was never intended to be like that.
[15:00:00] <Darke> Colourless: Cool sword too. I'm surprised that they didn't complain and patch her gausy bit of lower clothing even though it doesn't show anything. *shrug* Censors are weird.
[15:00:03] <Dark-Star> Hehe... I actually tried to do wth. like that back then, but debugging in pure DOS was a pain at that time, even with the right tools :(
[15:00:44] <Dark-Star> s/wth/sth
[15:01:09] * Darke is still amused that an anime cartoon nipple somehow managed to get shown on the back of a dvd case of one particular dvd. *grin* He thought that was particularly a no-no.
[15:01:44] <Colourless> the game cover itself has a topless delphi
[15:01:50] <Darke> Dark-Star: Doesn't it run under XP? Just run the debugger and the game under XP and it should solve at least some of the problems.
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[15:03:19] <Darke> Colourless: *blinkblink* Veird. Gripe about the game internals that are seen only by someone that 'understands' what they're looking at, then be quite happy to allow them to show the same things on a box cover that anyone could see.
[15:03:22] <Dark-Star> Darke: Yes, _today_ that's not the problem anymore. You know, I tried that about 5 years ago, there simply was no XP back then... Today the only problem is time, of which I don't have enough :(
[15:05:27] <Darke> Dark-Star: *grin* Always the case.
[15:15:56] * Darke yawns and decides to hop off to sleep. Can't keep eyes open. *grin* Night!
[15:16:01] <Colourless> cya
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[18:09:07] <andt> ?seen kirben
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[20:09:00] <jtool12> yo
[20:09:30] <Colourless> hi
[20:09:33] <wjp> hi
[20:09:56] <jtool12> Hi guyz
[20:10:07] <jtool12> what's up with Exult? 1.1?
[20:14:53] <wjp> yeah, something like that :-)
[20:15:01] <jtool12> :)
[20:15:11] <jtool12> not yet i guess :)
[20:15:11] <wjp> 1.1 isn't exactly on official release (yet), though
[20:15:12] <wjp> s/on/an/
[20:15:40] <jtool12> when is it for, the official 1.1?
[20:19:39] <matto|wookin> hi
[20:19:49] <frogger> hi
[20:19:51] <wjp> no idea...
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[21:11:02] <matto|wookin> people are dropping like flies around here ..
[21:11:19] * matto|wookin wonders if frogger caught the thinly-veiled frogger reference
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[21:22:37] <Fingolfin> re
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[21:24:25] <matto|wookin> hi
[21:24:29] <Dominus> hey ho
[21:58:55] <matto|wookin> hum ...
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[22:35:53] <wjp> Fingolfin: read the pentagram logs of today? :-)
[22:37:48] <Fingolfin> no
[22:40:02] <wjp> we had a 'vip' in there tonight :-)
[22:40:47] <Dominus> the first vip at all in the history of exultbot
[22:42:02] <Fingolfin> I read it (although, he's not really a "VIP"="Very Important Person", more an "IP"="Insider Person", isn't he? :-)
[22:42:14] <wjp> :-)
[22:42:18] <Dominus> he he
[22:42:49] <Dominus> he confirmed one thing
[22:43:15] <Dominus> after eight years not much about the development sticked in the head :-)
[22:44:06] <matto|wookin> stuck :)
[22:44:15] <Dominus> grrr
[22:44:31] <Dominus> I knew something was wrong :-)
[23:13:59] <matto|wookin> so a special guest in the Pentagram logs, eh?
[23:14:21] <Dominus> yep
[23:16:14] <matto|wookin> Baka!
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