#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 28 Sep 2006 (GMT)

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[09:00:29] <servus> If anyone needs it, http://sammatthews.com/files/u7mapper-1.0.rar is the newest version, with databases for both BG and SI (the shallow water/ice problem in SI hasn't been fixed yet). If anyone for whatever reason wants the code, ask.
[09:01:35] <Dalian> danke
[09:09:17] <Dalian> you know..it'd been awhile since I played through all of BG..but I don't remember the instadeath liches :\
[09:12:04] <Dalian> and getting bg to work under Dosbox really made me appreciate Exult that much more
[09:15:55] <servus> Hm? It should be easy to run BG in Dosbox. Just disable EMS and XMS
[09:16:29] <Dalian> yeah it worked fine, tho I have some directory issue with SI
[09:16:47] <Dalian> but wow..talk about a lack of options in the original
[09:25:29] <Dalian> cool..I got pretty much what I expected. I'm not quite used to the scale yet though. Even a few pixels makes a pretty big area
[09:26:00] <servus> Neat :)
[09:26:09] <servus> So you let it run all the way?
[09:26:49] <Dalian> all the way?
[09:27:26] <servus> 32 iterations? Guess you wouldn't know the mojo secrets to stop it early I guess *grin* - so it produced good results? If you send me the TGA, I can try tweaking it.
[09:27:52] <Dalian> ah yeah, 32 iterations, 17k failures
[09:28:03] <Dalian> whatever that means exactly
[09:28:13] <servus> 17K at the end? Ooh yeah you need to tweak your image : o)
[09:28:29] <servus> That's 17K (out of 32K) chunks that I couldn't find "Really Good" matches for.
[09:28:44] <Dalian> that's at opt iter 32
[09:28:45] <servus> A well-defined TGA should end up with about 4K failures.
[09:28:56] <servus> Oh the first one is always a ton : ) - what is the last value.
[09:29:06] <Dalian> 152
[09:29:32] <Dalian> i only made a very basic land mass with an island off to the side, to see how big it'd feel ingame
[09:30:07] <servus> 152? Say, that's good :)
[09:30:40] <servus> Things that are likely to give the program problems are swamp, and mountain/water/grass T-interfaces.
[09:31:02] <Dalian> i'll try to add some of that to it real quick
[09:37:47] <Dalian> ahh hmm...fefefe seems to be si only
[09:41:03] <Dalian> heh..now why is that road a wheatfield
[09:44:55] <Dalian> I see...it's based on the way I'm drawing the road
[09:45:06] <Dalian> sorta
[09:48:35] <Dalian> I tried running a mountain range alongside a coast..didn't like that too much
[09:48:55] <servus> Hm, roads on grass in BG have been very reliable for me. Make sure to not do "cheap" bends with a diagonal pixel, but to do full "L-shaped" pixel bends.
[09:49:13] <servus> Mountain flush against shallow water should be fine. You're using shallow water, right?
[09:50:42] <Dalian> tried doing this: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a351/Nixlplix/u7-bg.gif
[09:51:26] <Dalian> mostly the road worked, but it turns into wheatfield in a few places
[09:53:30] <Dalian> there are some water/grass/coast chunks so I thought I could get away with that at the top
[09:53:31] <servus> It looks pretty good, but never leave things like the strip of beach to only connect to other beach tiles with a diagonal (Look on the big island, just to the west of the southwest tip of the small island)
[09:53:52] <servus> You might have slightly better results with a *slightly* bigger shallow water region.
[09:53:52] <Dalian> but instead it cleaved the mountain range down the middle
[09:54:23] <servus> Hm, yeah, it does that. Once the program gets an idea in its head, it runs with it : o)
[09:56:18] <Dalian> ah yeah I see where I missed an Lshape
[09:58:20] <Dalian> see the road running along the mountain? That turned into wheatfield
[09:59:10] <servus> Dirt against mountain is a nono - it just doesn't happen in BG
[10:00:11] <Dalian> heh
[10:01:48] <Dalian> see how the road curves near the swamp? That worked, but the curves closer to the crossroads is wheat. Is it because I have that longer straight section in there?
[10:02:08] <servus> The swamp curve worked? o.O
[10:02:13] <Dalian> er
[10:02:29] <servus> Guess I should just try and see for myself :)
[10:02:34] <Dalian> no..just before it gets to the swamp. I knew that the swamp curves wouldn't work
[10:02:57] <Dalian> from a previous discussion
[10:03:47] <Dalian> what's the clean switch do exactly?
[10:06:16] <servus> Hmmm, yeah, I see. Not sure about that wheat thingy... blame it on free software :)
[10:06:21] <Dalian> ehhe
[10:06:37] <servus> If you manually fix some chunks, then CLEAN the map, it will try to fix nonperfect chunks again
[10:07:25] <servus> Basically generate first makes a really poorly map that only happens to have the correct *Class* of chunk in each spot, then cleans it over and over again. Cleaning means to make sure that chunks are as happy as possible with their neighbour, and will choose a new chunk from the same chunk class if necessary. Does that make sense?
[10:08:42] <Dalian> sounds like voodoo magic
[10:08:49] <Dalian> yeah makes sense :)
[10:09:47] <servus> Sometimes if it can't find anything it considers *remotely* relevant for the spot, it'll choose something in the same class. Here, wheat and road are both "dirt"... it should work though, dunno why it's balking
[10:10:30] <servus> Remember that it considers chunks in each of the 8 compass directions when choosing the best chunk. My guess is that nowhere in BG will you find such a tight north-west zigzag formation of roads.
[10:11:23] <Dalian> wouldn't removing wheat from the equation make it more likely to pick one that's better?
[10:12:17] <servus> Yepyep, if you "loosen up" the road formation, it looks great.
[10:12:35] <servus> Sometimes you want wheat though - if you make a big block of dirt, I'm probably going to assume it's a farm, right?
[10:14:04] <Dalian> good assumption
[10:14:29] <Dalian> yeah ok, that road was a bit crazy I suppose
[10:14:46] <Dalian> I'm surprised it didn't make the crossroads though
[10:16:52] <Dalian> but at the same time, that's probably not an easy thing for it to figure out
[10:18:55] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/files/u7mapper-dalian.tga Try this out
[10:19:14] <servus> Are there any proper crossroads in BG?
[10:20:02] <Dalian> aye
[10:20:44] <Dalian> hang on I'm going to see how my changes worked too
[10:24:02] <Dalian> hmm nope, that's actually worse than I did before. Large l-curves don't work I guess. Oddly enough tho, the curve on the left side didn't turn into wheat this time
[10:24:48] <servus> Well, it's worth it just for the grass, beach, and forest placement :) I need sleep, bye!
[10:24:59] <Dalian> sure is!
[10:25:04] <Dalian> g'nite
[10:25:16] <Dalian> just gettin the outline is a big help
[10:25:51] <Dalian> I'm just seeing if I can trick it into doing exactly what I want..bwaha :)
[10:26:35] <servus> ( If you fix it by hand, you can merge your new rules back into the database... no, I'm not going to say how tonight :P )
[10:27:06] <Dalian> hehe..I'd like to hear about that sometime :p
[10:27:32] <Dalian> because in a few spots, there *are* chunks that would connect but it didn't pick them for whatever reason
[10:30:29] <Dalian> yeah..your roads work a lot better. I'll have to
[10:30:35] <Dalian> *study how you draw them
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