#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 29 Aug 2005 (GMT)

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[01:19:04] <Lord_Nightmare> isn't mikmod under an osi-approved license?
[01:20:13] <Lord_Nightmare> i just think it sounds better than modplug but that may be because the filter is permanently on in the commandline modplug player. and modplug, afaik, does NOT support AMF
[01:22:43] <Colourless> your information is rather out of date then
[01:23:04] <Lord_Nightmare> nah, my modplugplay version must be.
[01:23:16] <Lord_Nightmare> stupid debian never bothers to update the thing
[01:23:53] <Colourless> anyway why not mikmod... too much stuff in it. even libmikmod wants to use its own output devices
[01:24:22] <Colourless> does far too much stuff. way more than we neeed
[01:24:29] <Lord_Nightmare> ya i guess you're right... though you'd only need to use the one module for playing amfs
[01:24:42] <Lord_Nightmare> you know FAR more about this than me
[01:25:01] <Lord_Nightmare> so i defer to your authority
[01:25:25] <Lord_Nightmare> (not that i could have done anything ANYWAY, but...)
[01:28:35] <Colourless> funny thing about sampling filters with mods, IMO sometimes they take something away from the mod. Nearest sampling can sometime create a bit of a mechanical sound, while the advanced filtering methods IMO can make the mod sound somewhat flat
[01:29:08] <Colourless> in particular with mods with fairly low quality samples.
[01:29:48] <Lord_Nightmare> yeah. sometimes cubic spline filtering can make low qual samples sound better, but very few mod players support that, and its kinda processor intensive
[01:30:18] <Lord_Nightmare> an alternative is gaussian interpolation, which is marginally less processor intensive but sounds 'mushed' and 'flat'
[01:32:07] <Lord_Nightmare> both are far better than linear interpolation, which sounds like a powerful lowpass filter (since thats basically what it is, a filter which mostly blocks all frequencies above 1/4 of the samplerate
[01:33:09] <Lord_Nightmare> unfortunately, libmikmod only supports linear. its odd, given all the other crazy features it has, it doesnt support cubic spline interpolation...
[01:33:30] <Lord_Nightmare> i don't know what interpolation methods modplug supports
[01:33:44] <Colourless> in pentagram will allow you to set the sampling method, nearest, linear, cubic or 'HiQuality' (which is some 8 point sampling method that i can' remember the name of off hand)
[01:34:02] <Lord_Nightmare> 8-tap FIR filtering?
[01:34:08] <Colourless> that sounds about right
[01:35:15] <Lord_Nightmare> thats SUPPOSED to be higher quality than either cubic spline or gaussian, but imho cubic spline sounds better (though sometimes cubic spline can introduce artifacts which were not present in the original sample, however its much less likely to do this than linear interpolation is)
[01:36:32] <Lord_Nightmare> supposed quality scale: nearest/none, linear, quartic/cubic (two unusual methods nobody uses), gaussian, cubic spline, 8-tap FIR
[01:36:56] <Lord_Nightmare> some people thing gaussian sounds better than cubic spline. i disagree.
[01:55:57] * Lord_Nightmare is one of the few people who can't get his u7bg fix with exult, because mt-32 sound effects don't yet work.
[01:56:15] <Lord_Nightmare> Colourless: wjp and SB-X say the new midi system is completely done, is that true?
[01:56:52] <Colourless> midi sfx are not implemented, but other than that it's 'done'
[01:56:54] <Lord_Nightmare> is all thats left to do for native mt-32 support, to upload the sfx patches to the mt-32 and use them?
[01:57:07] <Colourless> it already does that
[01:57:28] <Lord_Nightmare> so it uploads the patches but doesn't use them?
[01:57:34] <Colourless> it uses them
[01:57:38] <Colourless> it just doesn't play SFX
[01:57:41] <Lord_Nightmare> oh...
[01:57:44] <Colourless> that is SFX SFX
[01:58:12] <Colourless> i don't say real mt32 support, when i don't mean REAL mt32 support
[01:58:21] <Lord_Nightmare> ok....
[01:58:25] * Lord_Nightmare is confused
[01:58:30] <Colourless> we upload timbres and use them when playing the music
[01:59:00] <Colourless> as the sfx are imbedded in the ending music you even get the sfx in the ending
[01:59:04] <Lord_Nightmare> the same timbres as the regular executable does, i assume. are they stored within the executable or are they in a seperate data file
[01:59:12] <Lord_Nightmare> ah!
[01:59:26] <Lord_Nightmare> so the sfx-exclusive timbres are being uploaded
[01:59:35] <Lord_Nightmare> they're just never triggered by exult
[02:00:07] <Lord_Nightmare> (regular executable meaning the dos executable from origin)
[02:00:51] <Lord_Nightmare> <Lord_Nightmare> they're just never triggered by exult <- i meant, they're not triggered for sfxs by exult, yet music which triggers them, like the ending, as you mentioned, works fine.
[02:01:05] <Lord_Nightmare> ok, theres more done than i thought
[02:01:21] <Lord_Nightmare> i thought the sfx timbres werent even being uploaded
[02:02:19] <Lord_Nightmare> all thats left is to add a specialcase to the midi-sfx handler in exult (as opposed to midi-music, which is done, and voice-sfx, which is wavefile based)
[02:03:31] <Lord_Nightmare> it sounds like it shouldn't be hard to finish... is there a lookup table or something that needs to be extracted from the dos executable, before it can be fully complete?
[02:03:51] <Colourless> for serpent isle it should be fairly trivial to get it to work
[02:04:05] <Lord_Nightmare> Colourless: i'm really sorry for bothering you about this :/
[02:04:07] <Colourless> for BG there is a look up table and some other stuff that needs to be done
[02:04:29] * Lord_Nightmare whips out a hex editor
[02:08:01] <Lord_Nightmare> wow. executable up until 0x5000 is all tables... and theres probably more later on... (i have approximately 5 minutes of experience disassembling executables, so excuse me for saying anything REALLY stupid, like mixing up the exe header with useful data or something )
[02:08:28] <SB-X> how can you tell what's a table?
[02:08:55] <Lord_Nightmare> you can't. but if its organized in columns, it COULD be a table.
[02:09:04] <SB-X> oh
[02:09:43] <Lord_Nightmare> and theres LOTS of data organized in columns from 0x00055 to 0x04fff
[02:11:59] <Lord_Nightmare> 0x05000 (to 0x2xxxx so far and onward) looks like code, but could also have compressed or otherwise encoded data in it.
[02:14:20] <Lord_Nightmare> theres a big blank (all 0x00) space around 0x3AF7C to 0x3B5BF. after that, the data is in patterns of repeating bytes. that looks like some sort of data as opposed to code, but not obviously like a table.
[02:15:07] <Lord_Nightmare> from 0x3b9f9 onward, it looks like code again
[02:17:28] <Lord_Nightmare> from 0x411e0 to 0x41e9f we have lots more columnar stuff. 41ea0 looks like an executable header of some sort:
[02:17:32] <Lord_Nightmare> 00041EA0 75 37 2E 65 78 65 00 00 00 6F 62 6A 02 06 C8 07 u7.exe...obj....
[02:18:17] <Lord_Nightmare> after that theres lots of simple repeating patterns which may constitute part of the header
[02:18:50] <Lord_Nightmare> or may be some sort of streamed mystery-opcode data?
[02:19:36] <Colourless> using a hex editor to attempt to find a mystery table that you have no idea where it is, isn't a good idea
[02:19:43] <Lord_Nightmare> this goes on until 44c80
[02:19:51] <Colourless> you need to disassemble the exe
[02:20:00] <Lord_Nightmare> Colourless: well, it will tell me with only SOME accuracy, where NOT to look
[02:20:22] <Lord_Nightmare> 44c80 is the borland c++ compiler signature
[02:20:48] <Lord_Nightmare> then after that is a bunch more table-like stuff
[02:20:56] <Lord_Nightmare> and some error strings
[02:22:09] <Lord_Nightmare> then another table-like thing, and more strings and error codes, and what looks like some debug messages and display stuff for in-game debugging
[02:23:18] <Lord_Nightmare> at 45F08:
[02:23:26] <Lord_Nightmare> 00045F00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 8A 12 46 52 41 4D 45 53 ..........FRAMES
[02:23:26] <Lord_Nightmare> 00045F10 2E 46 4C 47 00 E1 00 62 0D 35 01 62 0D E9 00 62 .FLG...b.5.b...b
[02:23:33] <Lord_Nightmare> then a BIG table after that
[02:24:18] <Lord_Nightmare> maybe an embedded file called frames.flg, and its contents?
[02:24:30] <Lord_Nightmare> that may relate to the guardian lipsync...
[02:25:19] <Lord_Nightmare> yeah these look like embedded files around here
[02:25:33] <Lord_Nightmare> misstrac.dat
[02:25:42] <Lord_Nightmare> path.dat
[02:25:43] <SB-X> why do they have embedded files?
[02:25:50] <Lord_Nightmare> no idea
[02:27:20] <Lord_Nightmare> 477a0-ish to 47B50-ish is some sort of weird table or script
[02:27:31] <Colourless> probably static lookup tables they weren't going to change
[02:27:53] <Colourless> easier to embed in the exe and call as an array probably then to alloc memory and load from disk
[02:28:58] <Lord_Nightmare> MUSIC.SPEECH.SFX.INTERRUPT.PORT.ADLIB.ROLAND.ON.OFF.ABCD <- probably has to do with the options menu
[02:29:38] <SB-X> what are you looking for?
[02:30:06] <Lord_Nightmare> SB-X: if i knew, i'd probably have found it by now
[02:30:47] <Lord_Nightmare> definitely some interesting stuff involving engine subsystem names, around 47DCA
[02:31:42] <Lord_Nightmare> haha, a debug message: "YO! NPC %d is ethereal but solid! Fix it in the WE!"
[02:31:59] <Lord_Nightmare> i assume WE == world editor
[02:32:11] <Colourless> yep
[02:32:47] <servus> It'd be neat to see screenshots of the world editor. I've seen shots of the original Ultima Underworld map editor.
[02:33:01] <servus> They should've released it... like the Stunts! map editor...
[02:33:15] <Lord_Nightmare> its a pity the U7 source was lost
[02:33:22] <Colourless> 99% of all game editors barely work
[02:33:23] <Coren_> That was long before the user-modding fad
[02:33:24] <servus> You know it's out there :-p
[02:33:34] <servus> Stunts wasn't.
[02:33:44] <Colourless> they work just enough and are just stable enough that the original game could be made
[02:33:55] <servus> uwedit looked pretty polished
[02:34:20] <Coren_> In-house world editors are rarely useful for modding anyways; they tend to be hacked around the task at hand and hardcode most things.
[02:34:25] <servus> The uw.exe contains a string "uwedit.exe", so I kept trying to invoke uw.exe in different ways to see if the editor was embedded... No luck : o)
[02:35:00] <servus> I seem to remember Doug Church (or someone) being proud of uwedit in an interview.
[02:35:31] <Colourless> the u8 world editor was embedded in the u8.exe or more specifically, the code base was shared and a compile time define would have changed the exe from u8.exe to u8we.exe or whatever the editor was called
[02:36:52] <Lord_Nightmare> "Ultima VII self-check reveals a corrupt<NUL>game. This occurs rarely, but may be<NUL>corrected by reverting to an earlier<NUL>saved game.<NUL>Hit any key now to revert<NUL>and correct the problem.<NUL><NUL>Coord:%X,%X"
[02:36:54] <Colourless> u8.exe actually contains all the editor classes, except they contain no code
[02:37:34] <Colourless> and u8gumps.flx contains all the graphics for the editor widgets
[02:38:00] <Lord_Nightmare> the u8 source i THINK EA still has
[02:38:14] <Lord_Nightmare> maybe i could ask mooglyguy, he works at EA
[02:42:12] * Coren_ wishes uw2 would work right in dosemu.
[02:42:25] <Coren_> Hmmm. Maybe bochs.
[02:42:30] <Colourless> 3 screenshots from the u7 worldeditor: http://www.users.on.net/~triforce/u7we/
[02:42:30] <servus> Dosbox?
[02:42:56] <servus> Heh, and a cute little mouse icon too
[02:43:01] <servus> Neat :)
[02:46:33] <Lord_Nightmare> the second screenshot gives names to item flags. do they match the names in exult?
[02:49:29] <Lord_Nightmare> Colourless: where'd you dig those up?
[02:50:49] <Lord_Nightmare> btw what is in the file /static/mt32sfx.dat in BG?
[02:51:30] <Lord_Nightmare> another embedded file in the executable: weather.dat
[02:51:46] <Lord_Nightmare> at 4907a
[02:53:12] <SB-X> that's really cool
[02:53:37] <Coren_> Interrestingly enough, with modern OSes, linking data files into the executable file is not a stupid strategy.
[02:53:50] <Colourless> mt32sfx.dat contains mt32 timbres used by the sfx
[02:53:59] <servus> That method is recommended for icons in wxWidgets applications.
[02:54:02] <Coren_> On-demand paging takes care of all the hard work, and you get to use the data and it's "just there".
[02:54:17] <Lord_Nightmare> lots of stuff related to sound and mt32 around 49600
[02:54:31] <servus> The 3D compass model in Bonk! is hardcoded : o)
[02:54:48] <Lord_Nightmare> Colourless: ah, and we need the table of sfx numbers ingame to sfx numbers in-mt32
[02:55:15] <Colourless> the mt32 timbers match the ingame sfx
[02:55:38] <Colourless> what is needed is the information about what notes and how long to play each sfx for
[02:55:45] <Lord_Nightmare> ah!
[02:55:51] <Colourless> and what volumes
[02:55:54] <Lord_Nightmare> ok, i'll look for midi stuff then
[02:56:27] <Lord_Nightmare> embedded file: randseed.dat at 49936
[02:58:24] <Lord_Nightmare> and right before it, that same ethereal but not solid message again
[02:58:30] * Coren_ tries to figure bochs out.
[02:59:15] <Lord_Nightmare> embedded file: occlude.dat at 4a936
[02:59:38] <Colourless> occlude.dat isn't embedded
[02:59:44] <Lord_Nightmare> it isn't?
[02:59:46] <Lord_Nightmare> hmm
[02:59:47] <Lord_Nightmare> weird.
[03:00:45] <Lord_Nightmare> yeah the contents don't match either. must be a reference then.
[03:02:11] <Coren_> What the heck is 'bcc'? Borland's?
[03:02:39] <Lord_Nightmare> 0004B270 00 00 47 55 4D 50 4D 47 52 2E 44 41 54 00 48 65 ..GUMPMGR.DAT.He
[03:02:39] <Lord_Nightmare> 0004B280 79 21 21 20 57 68 61 74 27 73 20 68 61 70 70 65 y!! What's happe
[03:02:39] <Lord_Nightmare> 0004B290 6E 69 6E 67 3F 00 E3 00 7B 3F D9 00 7B 3F DE 00 ning?...{?..{?..
[03:02:52] <Lord_Nightmare> yep
[03:02:56] <Lord_Nightmare> borland c compiler
[03:03:12] <Coren_> Meh. Boch's bios makefile depends on bcc.
[03:03:21] <Coren_> s/Boch/Bochs
[03:03:48] <Lord_Nightmare> another big table/column thing after 4b360
[03:04:04] <Lord_Nightmare> and some immediately after what i pasted above
[03:04:07] <servus> I bet Lord_Nightmare is accidentally inspecting Quickbooks.
[03:05:12] <Lord_Nightmare> embedded file?: overlay.dat (around 4bca0)
[03:06:01] * Coren_ points out to Lord_Nightmare that it's very likely those aren't so much embedded files as they are string literals for the open() sprinkled between the rest of the data.
[03:06:31] <Lord_Nightmare> coren: that'd make sense, but those files don't exist in the data directories
[03:07:10] <Lord_Nightmare> 4c3c0 to 4eeaf is all blank space...
[03:07:23] <Coren_> Or at least, not in the production release.
[03:07:32] <Lord_Nightmare> Coren_: true...
[03:08:14] <Lord_Nightmare> i'm looking for strings from the worldeditor shots in the executabl
[03:08:51] <Coren_> In fact, your last excerpt seems to point that way: a filename followed immediately with another string literal; just what you'd expect in { if(!open("GUMPMGR.DAT"...) do_err("Hey!! What's..."); };
[03:09:23] <Lord_Nightmare> from 4eeb0 to the end of the executable is all code, or code-like data.
[03:10:01] <Lord_Nightmare> Coren_: i actually pasted that because of the error message, since i know gumpmgr.dat is an external file
[03:10:41] <Lord_Nightmare> i don't see editor strings in the executable :(
[03:12:00] <SB-X> i meant the editor screenshots are really cool
[03:12:33] <Lord_Nightmare> yeah, where did those come from?
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[04:50:18] <Coren_> Gah! I can't get %@$# bochs to run uw2!
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[07:47:59] <wjp> Coren_: recent versions of dosbox can play UW2 at playable speeds if you use the dynamic core
[07:48:14] <wjp> (recent CVS versions)
[07:48:16] <Baastuul> Dubya Jeigh Pee
[07:48:46] <wjp> Bee eigh eigh es tee you you el
[07:49:13] <Baastuul> Why, you Nederländer scoundrel...
[07:50:21] <wjp> hm, dutch doesn't use the umlaut that way, you know :-)
[07:51:10] <Baastuul> Yeah, I know, but I felt like abusing the German spelling of "Engländer" by carrying it over into "Nederländer," a gross perversion of both languages.
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[17:14:00] <Lord_Nightmare> now that i know of all those table-like things in the executable, i'll compare them to tables in exult and see if i can match any up
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