#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 29 Jan 2003 (GMT)

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[01:41:52] <jerbear> asdf
[01:49:24] <Servus> hello
[01:49:38] <Servus> that was the cat walking on your keyboard, i presume ;)
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[03:18:39] <Servus> hello
[03:18:47] <Servus> i remember what the fireplace comment was about, now
[03:19:25] <Servus> we were discussing making halflife and duke nukem maps, and we both agreed that it was too easy to get stuck on a single detail, and as a hypothetical statement, i mentioned "ive got to get this fireplace to look JUST right"
[03:19:27] <Matt_O> good evening, Severus
[03:19:30] <Servus> hello matt
[03:22:21] <Servus> severus eh? "severe" or "strict"
[03:22:33] <Matt_O> Severus.. from Harry Potter :)
[03:22:46] <Matt_O> Severus Snape
[03:23:21] <Servus> i just saw the movie, i cant be held accountable for spelling
[03:25:32] <Matt_O> I didn't think you were attempting to spell it
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[03:30:56] <Servus> or recognize the spelling
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[03:54:46] <Servus> wb
[03:55:02] <Servus> did you read what i typed to you in the log, daniel?
[03:59:40] <`daniel> umm
[03:59:44] <`daniel> nah can't say i did
[03:59:46] <`daniel> sorry
[03:59:47] <`daniel> hehe
[04:05:29] <Servus> ?log
[04:05:29] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exultlog.php3
[04:17:34] <`daniel> ahh yes
[04:17:35] <`daniel> hehe
[04:17:40] <`daniel> and duke nukem
[04:17:52] <`daniel> I'd make a room with about 40 sector effectors
[04:17:55] <`daniel> dang it
[04:18:10] <`daniel> and half-life, don't get me started on the polygon detail :P
[04:48:11] <Servus> indeed
[04:48:20] <Servus> but halflife maps got slow when you made them complicated
[04:48:39] <`daniel> yeh
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[08:38:32] <`daniel> hello hello
[08:47:13] <Servus> hiya:)
[08:50:00] <Darke> Hi.
[08:50:35] <Servus> hi
[08:50:38] <Servus> how goes it?
[08:57:01] <`daniel> hrrm?
[08:57:04] <`daniel> it goes well
[08:57:08] <`daniel> just a little tired
[08:57:21] <`daniel> I downloaded metal slug 3, started playing it through xmame
[08:57:38] <`daniel> 80mb for an arcade game is alot
[08:59:21] * Darke nodnods. Almost 100Meg uncompressed is *huge* for an arcade game of the time on roms. Nowdays though it's not much of a problem, since you just store it on a cd inside it.
[09:00:53] <`daniel> the sequel is only 30mb
[09:01:01] <`daniel> and the prequel is 22mb
[09:01:12] <`daniel> so I have no idea why the 3rd is so large
[09:09:02] <Darke> Not that much difference Metal Slug X is 66Meg.
[09:09:19] <Darke> Metal Slug 2 is 45Meg
[09:09:40] <Darke> And the original Metal Slug is 27Meg.
[09:10:34] <Darke> IMO, the size ramping up is because they reused a lot of the graphics and most of the engine, so they just had to spend development $$$ on adding more artwork and level design for an easy sequel. Do that nowdays with PC games and you'll get the Blair Witch series of games. *grin*
[09:16:23] <Servus> heh
[09:16:29] * Servus has no idea what game this is :P
[09:20:53] <`daniel> I checked on mame.dk
[09:21:10] <`daniel> apprently metal slug x is around 30mb
[09:24:54] <Darke> Compressed it is, yes.
[09:35:55] * Darke thinks it's *way* too much fun. And the tanks are just too cute. *grin*
[09:43:02] <`daniel> hehe
[09:43:21] <`daniel> what do you play it on?
[09:43:29] <`daniel> xmame, advancemame, mame?
[09:43:36] <`daniel> err
[09:43:37] <`daniel> mame32
[09:43:38] <`daniel> sorry
[09:44:34] <Darke> mame32 usually, since I tend to play it at work during lunch. Not much else to do then. *grin*
[09:45:39] <`daniel> oh yes?
[09:45:43] <`daniel> why the grin
[09:45:45] <`daniel> hehe
[09:49:51] <Darke> No reason. *grin*
[09:59:04] <`daniel> I love it when you eat that fruit that makes ya fat
[09:59:11] <`daniel> and ya shoot heaps better and stuff
[10:01:34] * Darke nodnodnods! It's greatly amusing.
[10:04:30] <`daniel> yah
[10:04:40] <`daniel> and becoming a zombie
[10:04:58] <`daniel> then vomiting blood out of your mouth as a special move
[10:07:43] <`daniel> im jsut glad i dont need to pay $2 per credit
[10:07:56] <`daniel> these games werent meant to be finished
[10:09:38] * Darke laughs!
[10:26:58] * Servus vomits a pack of crayons
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[11:45:28] <Nadir> hi
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[11:47:06] <Nadir> hi
[11:47:07] <Nadir> wb
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[13:18:48] * Darke waves and didn't even notice he was back. Have been bouncing all night and pretty much decided to ignore this channel until it stabilsed. *grin*
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[13:48:15] <Colourless> hmm, netsplit perhaps
[13:49:23] <Colourless> and the oracle says....
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[13:50:01] <Colourless> yes...
[13:50:02] <Colourless> now just where has chanserv gone...
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[13:51:15] <Colourless> speak of the devil
[13:51:22] <Darke> I dunno.
[13:51:23] <Darke> Ahh!
[14:15:11] <Colourless> Hmm, windows isn't totally clueless about device failures. Just got a message saying something similar to "Windows has dected a device failure. Reboot immediately to restore functionality" while I was testing out some changes (which obviously didn't work) i made to freespace 2. I am not sitting here with a 640x480x16colour screen. I think i'll reboot :-)
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[14:19:00] <Colourless> ah here i am back in the land of the coloured....
[14:21:06] * Darke yays 'n stuff.
[14:22:11] * Darke is in the land of "how freak'n long does it take for kde to compile?!?" at the moment. 10 hours and still going strong. *grin*
[14:23:17] <Colourless> sounds like the land of the colourled to me
[14:23:49] <Colourless> or coloured :-)
[14:24:26] <Colourless> so, i've got some bad news for you.... we are actually in the same land.... 'tis called Australia by many others
[14:25:05] <Darke> At least it isn't the land of the DCMA yet. *grin*
[14:26:33] <Colourless> no, not yet
[14:27:03] <Colourless> but this is the country where a court ruled in favour of a mod chip seller
[14:27:38] <Colourless> mod chips that are used to remove country coding are allowed
[14:32:27] * Darke nods. Yep. Apparently there's been more pressure recently though to enact more DCMA-like legislation.
[14:32:48] * Darke ponders searching for the news story or two he was reading today.
[14:33:37] <Colourless> pressure i've heard of, but last thing i heard our government wasn't being too cooperative
[14:33:54] <Colourless> (about introducing such legislation)
[14:35:25] * Darke nods.
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[15:17:37] * DarkeZzz has suddenly realsed he should have been asleep... err... a while ago. *grin* Night!
[15:17:43] <Colourless> cya
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[18:04:57] <wjp> hi
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[19:24:11] <Fingolfin> hi
[19:24:53] <wjp> hi
[19:43:38] * wjp sighs... Dirichlet characters can be quite annoying
[19:52:37] <Fingolfin> no clue about those, need to look them up
[19:53:00] <wjp> definition is quite easy:
[19:53:04] <Fingolfin> I noticed that mathworld.com doesn't list Reed-Solomon codes, goppa polynomials and some other things, now I am considering writing & submitting entries =)
[19:53:29] <wjp> a dirichlet character is a function chi: Z -> C, (integers -> complex nr.s), satisfying:
[19:53:41] <wjp> (a character mod q, q > 1, sorry)
[19:53:48] <wjp> chi(a)chi(b) = chi(ab)
[19:53:53] <wjp> chi(1) = 1
[19:54:03] <wjp> chi(a) = chi(b) if a is congruent b mod q
[19:54:09] <wjp> chi(a) = 0 if gcd(a,q)>1
[19:55:01] <Fingolfin> hm
[19:55:45] <Fingolfin> so if q is prime, then "mod q" is such a function
[19:56:02] <wjp> no
[19:56:17] <Fingolfin> no? why not?
[19:56:18] <wjp> the image are the complex numbers
[19:56:34] <wjp> so it doesn't satisfy X(a)X(b) = X(ab)
[19:56:36] <Fingolfin> you didn't say it has to be surjective =
[19:56:43] <wjp> it can't be surjective :-)
[19:56:59] <Fingolfin> err, (a mod q)*(b mod q) = (a*b mod q)
[19:57:10] <wjp> that's only in Z/qZ
[19:57:59] <Fingolfin> hu? it should be true for any integers a,b if q is prime. that's why Z/qZ works after all..
[19:58:03] <wjp> the image has to be a complex number, so if you want to map a to 'a mod q', you need to pick a set of representatives
[19:58:13] <Fingolfin> welll, integers *are* complex numbers
[19:58:23] <Fingolfin> just a very special subset of them =)
[19:58:35] <wjp> but you can't 'properly' map the residue classes mod q into them
[19:58:52] <wjp> how would you map the residue classes mod 3 into C?
[19:59:40] <Fingolfin> just look at the function f(x) := x mod q, where x is integer, and we choose the mod to map onto the canonic representatives. So if q=3, onto 0, 1, 2
[19:59:40] <wjp> um, make that mod 5 :-)
[19:59:45] <Fingolfin> or 5
[19:59:47] <Fingolfin> or any prime q
[20:00:08] <Fingolfin> then it is multiplicaive, maps 1 onto 1, and if a,b, are congruent mod q their image is equal
[20:00:09] <wjp> but then f(4) = 4, but f(4*4) = f(1) = 1 != 4 * 4
[20:00:37] <Fingolfin> good point =)
[20:00:47] <Fingolfin> hm... so why did I think that...
[20:00:58] * Fingolfin scratches his head
[20:01:40] <wjp> it's hard to work from a definition without also having the 'idea' behind it
[20:02:02] * wjp can't quite think of the idea behind characters, though :-)
[20:02:19] <Fingolfin> well I was doing enough mod stuff in the last few month, I should know better. but yeah, you are right of course
[20:02:32] <Fingolfin> I still dunno why I thought what I thought, though =) maybe I mixed it up with "a+b", whatever
[20:02:41] <wjp> one example is the legendre-symbol
[20:03:11] <Fingolfin> but of course, multiplication can't conserve the image, as otherwise (contrary to my prior statement), standard finite groups all would be boring, as they would all be equal and only contian a single element =)
[20:03:16] <Fingolfin> ah ok
[20:03:32] <Fingolfin> so, what is the motivation behind considering these dirichlet characters?
[20:03:50] <wjp> apparently they're useful for proving the prime number theorem for arithmetic expressions
[20:04:43] <wjp> (which gives the order of the number of primes congruent to a mod q smaller than x)
[20:05:44] <wjp> exercise: show that X(a) is either 0 or a root of unity (with X a character of course)
[20:05:45] <wjp> :-)
[20:09:05] <Fingolfin> well I see that (unless q=2) chi(-1) = i if that helps, lol
[20:09:36] <wjp> it is? :-)
[20:09:53] <Fingolfin> chi(-1)*chi(-1) = chi(1) = 1
[20:10:02] <Fingolfin> err
[20:10:08] <Fingolfin> so it's 1 I guess? <g>
[20:10:13] <Fingolfin> nm
[20:10:15] <wjp> 1 or -1
[20:10:18] <Fingolfin> yeah
[20:10:25] <Fingolfin> brb, network restart
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[20:13:22] <Fingolfin> re
[20:13:38] <Fingolfin> so, 1 or -1, yes (my brain is pretty useless today, isn't it)? :-)
[20:14:12] <Fingolfin> but there should be at most q different values, no (or something like that, since chi(a) = chi (a mod q)) ? or what did I forget this time around =)
[20:16:00] * wjp nods
[20:16:16] <wjp> even less, in fact, since the a with gcd(a,q)>1 have chi(a) = 0
[20:16:59] <Fingolfin> yeah right (hey I did say "at most" :-)
[20:20:37] <wjp> the particular problem I'm semi-stuck on:
[20:21:07] <wjp> the sum over all primes p <= x of chi(p) is o(x/log(x)) as x -> infinity
[20:23:57] <wjp> but that most likely needs some semi-advanced theorems :/
[20:30:14] <Fingolfin> you want to prove that statement or what?
[20:30:44] <wjp> yeah
[20:31:49] <Fingolfin> the primes of course have gcd(p,q)=1 except for a finite number of exceptions (the prime factors of q), while there are infinitly many numbers that have gcd(n,q)>1
[20:32:28] <Fingolfin> is q a prime or an arbitrary integer, btw?
[20:32:28] * wjp nods
[20:32:40] <wjp> arbitrary integer
[20:33:03] <wjp> but as you say, there's only a finite number of exceptions at the start, so you can just ignore those if necessary
[20:33:10] <Fingolfin> yeah right
[20:33:28] * wjp is kind of hoping it's going to follow from some theorem :-)
[20:33:34] <Fingolfin> heheh yeah
[20:33:37] * wjp is browsing his notes for any applicable theorems :-)
[20:33:50] <Fingolfin> I am just trying to "understand" the claim, even if I may not be able to prove it formally =)
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[21:14:42] <wjp> time to go; g'night
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