#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 29 Jan 2004 (GMT)

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[08:14:00] <servus> It would seem that cvs is down.
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[10:13:31] <servus> LiLo delights in being eeeevil
[11:13:41] <wjp> well, 1.1.9rc1 seems to have propagated to 4 mirrors already :-)
[11:13:55] <wjp> and that after only 39 hours :-)
[11:16:50] <Darke> Wow. It's moving at... err... light speed.
[11:17:16] <servus> Yes. Light speed, but very slowly.
[11:17:19] <Darke> Wonder if the latest 'doze worm is chewing up lots of sf.net's bandwidth and things are slowing down as a result. *grin*
[11:17:54] <servus> SF: Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)
[11:18:45] <Darke> sf.net runs quite a few mail swervers off the same bandwidth. I've already got dozens of the spam through their lists, so I can expect it's hitting them even harder then me. *Grin*
[11:19:13] <wjp> they're blocking all mails with zip attachments now
[11:19:22] <Darke> Cool.
[11:19:44] * servus ponders
[11:20:18] <Darke> Most of my 100+ copies have come through my sf.net redirected mail addresses, so that should keep my inbox cleanish. *grin*
[11:20:38] <servus> Isn't the attachment extension absolutely meaningless as long as I supply a proper MIME type pointing to something else? Say... send readme.txt as content-type: application/octet-stream
[11:21:01] <wjp> depends on the mail client
[11:21:08] <servus> Say... IE
[11:21:16] <wjp> and I didn't say they blocked on extension
[11:21:23] <servus> Oh I'm being offtopic
[11:22:52] <servus> It just seems like a prime exploit
[11:22:58] <Darke> All things considered, I'm not quite sure what is offtopic on #exult. *grin*
[11:22:59] * servus tries it out
[11:23:09] <servus> Good thing I have my own webserver :-p
[11:23:19] <servus> Called... ServeUs!
[11:23:24] <servus> If that's not offtopic, I don't know what is
[11:24:12] <Darke> exult has a webpage, which is on a webserver. Thus it's not offtopic. See? *grin*
[11:26:15] <servus> But not my buggy server!
[11:29:57] <wjp> ok, just wrote a release announcement for on the webpage
[11:30:12] <wjp> now I wonder if I should actually put it only already, or wait a while for the rest of the mirrors
[11:30:18] <wjp> s/only/online/
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[11:31:50] <Colourless> hi
[11:32:40] <servus> OK, I can't fool IE as easily as I thought might be possible. I sent an executable called readme.txt as Content-Type: application/octet-stream and it opened it in notepad... Still though... :)
[11:32:59] <Darke> Hiya.
[11:33:52] <Darke> servus: Yeah. Windows does some magical sorting order to work out what application it should execute the file with, depending upon content type, extension and I think internal headers. It's documented somewhere on MSDN, IIRC.
[11:34:37] <servus> Well, if I were to just send the file named "readme", sure it might execute (but probably not), but it'd defeat the purpose of trying to look like something else.
[11:35:43] <servus> UGH! Ticketmaster *swore* to not spam me when I gave them my email... I used them to buy Shostakovich concert tickets, and now they're spamming me with "Don't miss Chris Rock, Rod Stewart, and more!"
[11:36:54] <Darke> News just in. servus discoveres that big corporations, like spammers, *lie*! We now return you to your regularly scheduled programs.
[11:37:55] <servus> But but but---
[11:38:03] * servus 's lower lip curls and starts to quiver
[11:39:35] * Darke returns himself to his non-scheduled programming. perl is useful, if really annoying.
[11:39:42] <Colourless> ie, latest versions anyway, have protection against executable file type
[11:41:12] <Colourless> some of the problems that other worms used is that it was a little too smart at detecting file types. One part of outlook would use mimetypes to work out the file format to know whether a file was ok to exectute, but the actual act of opening it would use the 'advanced' file type detector
[11:41:51] <Colourless> this has since been corrected by everything using the 'advanced' file type detector
[11:42:34] <Colourless> unless you find a new exploit you shouldn't be able to fool ie/outlook to open an executable file
[11:43:04] <servus> Okay okay. But why would they think I want to see Chris Rock and Rod Stewart because I bought a Shostakovich ticket?
[11:43:58] <Colourless> because while they keep statistics on you, their marketting department ignores them :-)
[11:44:09] <Darke> What he said. *points*
[11:48:53] <servus> Like Bush?
[11:48:56] * servus ducks
[11:55:25] <Darke> Pretty much.
[11:55:51] <Darke> (Wouldn't he be 'Shrub' anyway, as apposed to the elder Bush?)
[12:15:24] <wjp> Colourless: wasn't there an exploit recently that used a CLSID somewhere to trick IE?
[12:21:07] <wjp> mirrors that currently have 1.1.9rc1: umn, aleron, easnynews, twtelecom, osdn
[12:25:24] <Kirben> Could exult version number be updated again for cvs ?
[12:25:55] <wjp> hm, not sure
[12:26:02] <wjp> the next version should be 1.2
[12:27:30] <wjp> we could maybe change it to 1.1.9cvs in the meantime
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[14:19:11] <Dominus> hey ho
[14:19:21] <Dominus> just in for a quick question to Kirben
[14:20:13] <Dominus> in makefile.studio.mingw in the install option at line 81 we have:
[14:20:16] <Dominus> mkdir -p $(U7PATH)\data
[14:20:40] <Dominus> can we change that to mkdir -p $(U7PATH)/data (not the / \)
[14:20:43] <Dominus> ?
[14:22:06] <Dominus> because that "mkdir -p $(U7PATH)\data" makes a data dir "above" my u7path
[14:25:14] <Dominus> bye all
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[14:27:30] <Kirben> Yes that should be changed, was left over from when people were compiling outside a shell.
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[15:46:54] <wjp> hi Max
[15:47:46] <Fingolfin> hi willem
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[17:15:34] <wjp> Colourless: that problem with the voices with the wrong samplerate is still there, right?
[17:15:43] <Colourless> yes
[17:15:53] <wjp> what would it take to fix that?
[17:16:09] <Colourless> not much. A hack either in the ucmachine or audio
[17:16:31] <Colourless> i added in methods ages ago that allow you to override the sample rate of a voc
[17:16:49] <wjp> do all vocs have the same sample rate?
[17:17:00] <Colourless> afaik all the BG ones do
[17:17:20] <wjp> ok, so we could just call that override function for BG to set it to that rate
[17:18:31] <Colourless> yes something like that IIRC
[17:20:18] <Colourless> hmm
[17:22:04] <Colourless> either i am totally mistaken or there are no funcs
[17:23:43] <Colourless> simple enough to change things though
[17:27:20] <wjp> hm, the 'alt-1' sound tester doesn't seem to have any pitch problems
[17:29:17] <Colourless> plays too fast here
[17:29:30] <wjp> how big is the difference?
[17:29:33] <wjp> and which one did you try?
[17:29:35] <Colourless> not much
[17:29:46] <Colourless> try 14
[17:29:47] <wjp> oh, maybe I just didn't pay enough attention then
[17:31:15] <wjp> hm, yes, that one might be too fast
[17:31:25] <wjp> although just barely
[17:31:43] <Colourless> the guardian vocs in SI are 'way' faster
[17:31:49] <Colourless> (21 and 22)
[17:32:01] <wjp> how much is the samplerate difference? 8K vs 11K or something?
[17:32:11] <Colourless> could be for those
[17:32:28] <wjp> ok, those SI ones are quite obvious :-)
[17:32:59] <wjp> they have a very metallic 'undertone'
[17:33:03] <Colourless> things 'used' to be ok back in the early builds when exult didn't support resampling :-)
[17:33:22] <Colourless> and the sample rate was set to something in the 8k range
[17:33:26] <wjp> i.e., we should just "ignore" the problem ;-)
[17:39:14] <wjp> do you think 4 out of 10 mirrors is enough to announce 1.1.9rc1?
[17:39:43] <Colourless> might as well
[17:40:24] <wjp> k, done :-)
[17:43:22] <wjp> text on the homepage ok?
[18:05:34] <wjp> bbl, dinner
[18:13:11] <Colourless> text is fine
[18:34:03] <wjp> back
[18:35:07] <Colourless> wb
[18:38:16] <wjp> is that "FUDGE_SAMPLE_RATES" define relevant?
[18:38:33] <Colourless> no
[18:38:55] <wjp> only a difference of about a percent anyway, I guess
[18:40:15] <Colourless> converts from 11111 and 22222 to 11025 and 22050 (making them slightly lower pitch, but not requiring resampling to a 'very' differernt sample rate)
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[18:53:09] <artaxerxes> hi all
[18:53:12] <wjp> hi
[18:53:27] <artaxerxes> wjp: the zaurus ipkg is ready. Where should I put it?
[18:53:53] <Colourless> on sourceforge :-)
[18:53:58] <wjp> either upload it straight to ftp://upload.sourceforge.net/incoming, or put it somewhere where I can reach it
[18:54:23] <wjp> what's the filename, btw?
[18:54:33] <artaxerxes> exult_1.1.9rc1_arm.ipk
[18:54:47] <Colourless> make the _ into -
[18:54:59] <wjp> the first one, that is
[18:55:04] <wjp> (for consistency, if possible
[18:55:04] <wjp> )
[18:55:08] <artaxerxes> oh, ok.
[18:55:27] <wjp> the last two had a _ there too, so maybe it's necessary?
[18:55:36] <wjp> s/two/three/ :-)
[18:56:04] <artaxerxes> it is generated by default by the packager program
[18:56:29] <wjp> well, I don't mind that much, if that's the standard naming convention for ipk's
[18:56:47] <artaxerxes> it could be that it makes a difference
[18:56:59] <wjp> I'll just have to pay attention when adding the lin to the download page :-)
[18:57:02] <wjp> s/lin/link/
[18:57:18] <artaxerxes> btw, why 1.1.9rc1 and not 1.2.0rc1 ?
[18:57:39] <Colourless> because it's not 1.2 :-)
[18:57:49] <artaxerxes> ;-)
[18:58:02] <Colourless> actually the reason is so that 1.2 is actually a newer version
[18:58:18] <Colourless> 1.2.0rc1 would have a version number of 1.2.0.1 effectively
[18:58:27] <Colourless> so what would 1.2 proper be?
[18:58:31] <artaxerxes> would you mind detailing the difference between a new release and a new version?
[18:58:42] <Colourless> 1.2.0.2 perhaps? When we actually want just straight 1.2
[18:59:00] <wjp> my reason was just to have a different number than the 'real' 1.2
[18:59:29] <wjp> people often leave the last part off when reporting bugs
[18:59:41] <artaxerxes> uploaded to upload.sf.net
[18:59:50] <wjp> (if you look at the forum several people already said they're running '1.1.9')
[19:00:04] <wjp> artaxerxes: ok, thanks :-)
[19:00:13] <artaxerxes> maybe they come from the future! ;-)
[19:00:26] <artaxerxes> now seriously,
[19:00:28] <artaxerxes> would you mind detailing the difference between a new release and a new version?
[19:00:55] <Colourless> a 'version' is generally a non beta version :-)
[19:01:58] <artaxerxes> but when it comes to code and tags?
[19:02:18] <Colourless> nothing :-)
[19:02:49] <wjp> ok, I 'released' the .ipk
[19:03:04] <artaxerxes> thx
[19:03:06] <wjp> now let's hope this one reaches the mirrors sooner than the other files :-)
[19:13:49] <artaxerxes> btw, sorry about the exultmsg.txt post on the forum. I didn't realise you guys were on it.
[19:14:05] <Colourless> for stuff like that, you should email exult-general
[19:14:13] <Colourless> they are 'dev' matters
[19:14:45] <artaxerxes> aie, aie.
[19:15:23] <wjp> a per-game config file field for exultmsg.txt might just work
[19:16:34] <wjp> hm, the SI vocs have a rate of 8849Hz
[19:16:41] <wjp> what a peculiar value
[19:16:45] <Colourless> a setting in the menu would be nice
[19:17:02] <wjp> Colourless: you mean a 'default/french/german' setting?
[19:17:03] <artaxerxes> start menu or in-game menu ?
[19:17:26] <Colourless> wjp: yes something like that.
[19:17:58] <Colourless> ideally exult would be able to enumerate all the cfg files and work it automatically add the translation to the menu
[19:18:30] <Colourless> artaxerxes: either/both IMO doesn't matter
[19:19:06] <wjp> the start menu is currently shape based, isn't it?
[19:19:17] <artaxerxes> but that would be just for exultmsg.txt. You couldn't do it for usecode though.
[19:19:42] <Colourless> wjp: some parts of it are
[19:19:52] <Colourless> though the 'values' aren't iirc
[19:20:03] <Colourless> midi conversion is text IIRC
[19:25:38] <wjp> BG vocs are (or claim to be) 9615Hz
[19:26:50] <artaxerxes> I've got a midisfx.flx in my data dir for Exult (using Zaurus) but no sfx coming out. Any idea?
[19:27:00] <artaxerxes> (.exult.cfg is properly configured)
[19:27:07] <Colourless> if they are forced to like that 8849 they are correct IIRC
[19:27:20] <Colourless> of something close to it anyway
[19:27:22] <artaxerxes> Music works.
[19:27:41] <Colourless> exult.cc from early versions of exult should set the sample rate to the correct value
[19:29:51] <wjp> how early? :-)
[19:32:55] <Colourless> before 1
[19:34:51] <Colourless> now with 455 revisions, finding it may not be so easy :-)
[19:35:23] <wjp> if (mygame == BLACK_GATE)
[19:35:23] <wjp> audio->Init(9615*2,2);
[19:35:23] <wjp> else if (mygame == SERPENT_ISLE)
[19:35:24] <wjp> audio->Init(11111*2,2);
[19:35:28] <wjp> that bit?
[19:37:08] <artaxerxes> n/m my question earlier. Is midisfx.flx used at all then? If not I'll remove it from the ipkg.
[19:37:16] <Colourless> wjp yes that looks like it
[19:37:46] <Colourless> artaxerxes: it is only used if exult is compiled with Midi sfx support, which is no by default
[19:38:45] <artaxerxes> if you have midi support compiled, does it prevent you from using the jm*sfx.flx files?
[19:39:02] <Colourless> no
[19:39:16] <Colourless> requires proper support in your midi hardward though :-)
[19:39:27] <Colourless> it aint going to work properly on a Z :-)
[19:39:36] <artaxerxes> hmmm. ouch.. I doubt the zaurus has that indeed!
[19:39:52] <artaxerxes> unless you plug the zaurus to a Roland keyboard! :-)
[19:40:17] <Colourless> actually even then it's not going to work :-)
[19:40:23] <artaxerxes> lol
[19:40:46] <artaxerxes> so the FMOPL is just for music, right?
[19:40:52] <Colourless> yes
[19:41:58] <artaxerxes> I must say I'm quite clueless when it comes to music/sfx/midi
[19:42:04] <artaxerxes> (and much much more)
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[19:45:00] <Dominus> hi
[19:45:06] <artaxerxes> hey
[19:45:13] <Colourless> hi
[19:45:16] <Dominus> wjp: thanks for the main page notice
[19:47:01] <wjp> sure :-)
[19:47:04] <wjp> hi, btw
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[20:43:43] <Dominus> sigh...
[20:43:50] <Dominus> got to leave again...
[20:43:53] <artaxerxes> see ya
[20:43:56] * Dominus waves
[20:43:59] <Dominus> bye
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[21:29:38] <artaxerxes> I'm leaving too. See ya around
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[22:17:57] <wjp> hi Fingolfin
[22:18:17] <Fingolfin> hi
[22:24:39] <wjp> Fingolfin: any progress on linking exult?
[22:25:06] <Fingolfin> wjp: oh I was already yesterday able to link it, I just had to modify my libSDL.la
[22:25:23] <Fingolfin> but if you mean if there is any progress on properly fixing the issue: yes, Sam already put my fix into SDL CVS =)
[22:25:28] <Fingolfin> so SDL 1.2.7 will work properly
[22:25:31] <wjp> great :-)
[22:25:32] <Fingolfin> (like 1.2.6)
[22:25:58] <wjp> do you have time to make a proper 1.1.9rc1 package this week or weekend?
[22:37:47] <Fingolfin> possibly fr/sa/so night...
[22:38:13] <Fingolfin> can't gurantee it, but I'll try
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[23:10:35] <wjp> now this is peculiar
[23:12:48] <wjp> I'm looking at how exult and u7 (through dosbox) play the "rest, and heal, so you are strong and able to face the perils before you" speech
[23:13:11] <wjp> the pitch is the same, since both take exactly the same time to run
[23:13:31] <wjp> however, comparing the two in a wav editor, the exult one isn't centered around 0
[23:13:46] <wjp> the entire waveform is shifted down a bit
[23:14:58] <wjp> a significant bit too: about 25% of the maximum amplitude of that section
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[23:18:02] <WishStone> Huhu! Any of you guya owning or useing apples' Safari?
[23:18:28] <wjp> hi WishStone
[23:18:33] <wjp> I don't even own a mac
[23:18:39] * wjp points at Fingolfin; he does :-)
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[23:19:53] <Ranger> *grumbles*
[23:20:06] * Ranger looks at Fingolfin with big puppy eyes
[23:20:20] <Ranger> Do you know about Safari, oh wise one?
[23:20:24] * Ranger goes kill Wishy
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[23:20:34] <wjp> poor wishy
[23:20:41] <WishStone> ressed her, too
[23:20:41] <wjp> ah, it wasn't fatal, I see :-)
[23:20:44] <WishStone> ;D
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[23:26:46] <Ranger> .......
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[23:28:09] * wjp stares at the resampling function
[23:28:20] <wjp> something is wrong with it, but I don't see it
[23:31:54] * WishStone paitently waits for Fin to wake
[23:34:47] <wjp> I guess I'll have to double-check the coefficients for this cubic interpolator; yay
[23:36:13] * Fingolfin patiently waits (and has been waiting for the past 15 minutes) for WishStone to actually *ask a question*
[23:36:52] <Fingolfin> wjp: cubic interpolation for a resample is bad (yeah and I know I did it myself in the past :-). At least put a low pass filter over it, but even then, you get lots of distortion =)
[23:37:07] <wjp> the main problem here seems to be that the waveform is shifted down
[23:37:45] <wjp> i.e., bits of silence aren't at amplitude 0, but rather at minus something
[23:38:03] <WishStone> oooooh!
[23:38:06] <WishStone> Sorry Fin :D
[23:38:10] <WishStone> Well, question is:
[23:38:32] <WishStone> I have a friend, using it and he wants his cache removed. I read about an option called "restore Privacy" or something...
[23:39:01] <WishStone> I, being a Windoof user, have no idea how he could get there... what does he click or where can ha find it?
[23:39:23] * wjp points at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exult_wave.png
[23:40:24] <wjp> 'rm -rf ~/Library/Caches/Safari' ? :-)
[23:40:47] <Fingolfin> WishStone: cookies? or cache?
[23:41:08] <Fingolfin> for Cache, doing what wjp said would be a way
[23:41:08] <wjp> random google quote: "You can easily flush the cache by going to Safari Menu, then Empty Cache"
[23:41:21] <Fingolfin> indeed.
[23:41:47] <Fingolfin> the privacy stuff would be cookies, and entierly different matter...
[23:41:52] <WishStone> cache. Well, the drop-down lists he gets in google and such.
[23:42:07] <Fingolfin> that's yet another (3rd) thing :-)
[23:42:08] <WishStone> Oh... Read that it flushes the cache as well :\
[23:42:38] <wjp> safari sure has a lot of things you can flush :-)
[23:42:39] <Fingolfin> what you mean is the "automatic fill-in" stuff
[23:42:46] <Fingolfin> (no idea what the proper english name is)
[23:42:54] * WishStone digs out what she read on google
[23:43:00] <Fingolfin> that can be reset in the "Preferences"
[23:43:04] <WishStone> "Privacy reset"
[23:43:08] <WishStone> When you use a public machine, you may be concerned about entering passwords to your bank account or subscriptions services; or maybe you don’t want people to know you have a secret fascination with advice columns, which they could find out by visiting your history. Privacy Reset erases that history, empties the cache, clears Downloads and Google search entries and also removes cookies, saved names, passwords or other AutoFill text.
[23:43:23] <Fingolfin> there is a section for "Auto fill in", and in that, you can edit (and also remove) the default values
[23:43:31] <WishStone> I thought that sounded perfect for his needs :\
[23:43:43] <Fingolfin> well
[23:43:48] <Fingolfin> you didn't tell us his needs
[23:44:08] <Fingolfin> I can only give you answers to questions you ask, not to questions you only think off =)
[23:44:21] <wjp> heh, that's on apple's safari page, isn't it? :-)
[23:44:28] <WishStone> Yepp wjp
[23:44:36] <WishStone> http://www.apple.com/safari/
[23:44:36] <Fingolfin> the desire to delete the cache is somethign else than the desire to delete the "auto fill-in" list is something else than the desire to delete *all* privacy relevant information
[23:44:46] <Fingolfin> the latter can indeed be done
[23:44:51] <Fingolfin> just go to the the "Safari" menu
[23:45:08] <WishStone> eer, wait, the question here is "how do I get there"? :\ *blush*
[23:45:16] <Fingolfin> and select the corresponding menu item (which in the German version is called "Safari zurücksetzen", maybe it's "Privacy Reset" in the english version, dunno)
[23:45:18] <WishStone> And where is it, and how can I see it and so on.
[23:45:37] <WishStone> Mind you, I only once sat on an apple, tried a right-click and felt lost :P
[23:45:49] <Fingolfin> I just told you =)
[23:45:57] <wjp> the one time I sat at an apple I opened a terminal and felt right at home :-)
[23:46:12] <Fingolfin> feel free to visit me again oen day, wjp =)
[23:46:16] <wjp> no, I've actually been behind Mac OS X twice
[23:46:21] <Fingolfin> ahahah =)
[23:46:26] <WishStone> Hm.. :\
[23:46:38] * WishStone mutters about Macintosh being teh ebil anyhow
[23:46:41] <Fingolfin> WishStone: I'll repeate it once again for you: Go to the "Safari" menu in Safari. Select the menu item. Done
[23:46:58] <WishStone> GRRR
[23:47:01] * Fingolfin doesn't mind WishStone calling the Macintosh "teh ebil". After all, I don't even know what that is =)
[23:47:11] <WishStone> Don't talk to me like a baby *mutters*
[23:47:17] * wjp is curious... how many menu items does the safari menu have?
[23:47:26] <WishStone> My question as to how I get in the "safari menu" isn't answered by that, Fin :\
[23:48:24] <Fingolfin> wjp: the "Safari" menu is an "application menu", which every mac app has (e.g. Finder has a "Finder" menu, etc. etc.). They usually contain "About", "Preferences, "Hide", "Hide Others", "Show all", "Quit"
[23:48:40] <Fingolfin> WishStone: err.... you ask me not to talk to you like a baby, yet ask such a question? :-)
[23:48:49] <Fingolfin> WishStone: if you were on Windows, or on Linux, how'd you get to a menu?
[23:48:55] <Fingolfin> probably by clicking on it? :-)
[23:49:18] <WishStone> I have no idea about linux, thank you very much.
[23:49:30] <WishStone> Look, sorry, okay, sorry that I asked something *sighs*
[23:49:31] <Fingolfin> ok. did you ever use a graphical operating system?
[23:49:37] <Fingolfin> :-)
[23:51:00] <Fingolfin> apparently you are on windows, good. So, if I told you to "go into Word and select the 'foobar' menu", you'd probably look in Word's menu bar for it, no? Same on Mac OS X/Safari. Only that the menu bar isn't contained in the window, it's at the top of the screen
[23:51:25] <Fingolfin> anyhow, if your friend is a mac user, just tell him to go to the Safari menu and select "Privacy Reset", and I have no doubt's (s)he'll know immediately what to do :-)
[23:51:48] <WishStone> He does not, why else would I have troubled you, oh mighty god?
[23:51:53] <Fingolfin> (ah. I just switched my system to english, the menu item is called "Reset Safari". So, go to the Safari menu and select "Reset Safari"
[23:52:19] <wjp> weird name
[23:52:23] <Fingolfin> WishStone: hehe. I still doN't get what's hard to understand about this :-)
[23:52:37] <wjp> I'd think twice before pressing something called "Reset Safari"
[23:52:44] <WishStone> What's making this hard for me is that you're being a jerk to me and I have no idea what I have done to you, mkay?
[23:53:05] <WishStone> I'd greatly love you to take me serious without laughing at me or something.
[23:53:14] <Fingolfin> wjp: of course, when you select that menu item, first a dialog pops up which precisely explains what'll happen. Then you can go on, or cancel (default being cancel) :-)
[23:53:20] <WishStone> Unless that's not possibly in which case I'll stuff it.
[23:54:04] <Fingolfin> WishStone: <sigh>
[23:54:18] <wjp> Fingolfin: of course you don't know a dialog is going to pop up beforehand :-)
[23:54:26] <WishStone> What you're telling me right now makes as much sense to me as it perhaps would fo to you if I have you a scapel and tell you to lay feww the lower epeidermis of a dead mouse without cutting a blood vessel.
[23:54:48] <WishStone> And then if you look at me with a question I just laugh and say: What's the pro9blem, you have the scapel, you have the mouse, go for it.
[23:54:58] <wjp> hehe, I know what I would have to do, but I'd probably make a mess of that mouse :-)
[23:55:31] <Fingolfin> WishStone: I think your comparision is extremly bad
[23:55:40] <WishStone> Oh do you.
[23:55:47] <Fingolfin> WishStone: just answer me this? Have you ever used Windows? And have you ever used menus in Windows?
[23:56:58] <Fingolfin> I would guess the answer is "yes"... if so, I am telling you how to use the scalpel on a mouse, after you used it on rats. Clearly, it's a transfer, but the two things are pretty close anyway... :-). So yes, I think your comparision is flawed.
[23:57:21] <Fingolfin> unless you actually never have used menus on windows, in which case I must apologize, but I *did* ask you about it and you never replied :-)
[23:59:54] <Fingolfin> I can explain it anyway. Sorry if this sounds like I am treating you liek a baby, I am not -- I just see no other way to explain it if you don't know how to use a menu: "1) Start Safari 2) Once it's up and running, at the top of the screen you'll find the so-called 'Menu bar', a list of horizontally aligned text items, which are actually clickable 3) Locate the one called 'Safari' (it's at the very top left of the screen, just nex
[23:59:54] <Fingolfin> t to the Apple menu). 4) Click on it 5) A menu appears - a list of vertically aligned text, which again is clickable 6) amongst that, you find an entry labeled "Reset Safari" 7) Click it 8) Read the instructions in the dialog and follow them