#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 29 May 2002 (GMT)

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[00:12:23] --> EazyCheze has joined #exult
[00:12:28] <EazyCheze> yoyoyo
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[00:15:32] <Darke> 'ello.
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[02:43:10] <Kirben> hmm cmanip won't compile under mingw
[02:43:28] <Kirben> ./tools/cmanip.cc: In function `void usage(unsigned int)':
[02:43:28] <Kirben> ./tools/cmanip.cc:61: `PACKAGE' undeclared (first use this function)
[02:43:28] <Kirben> ./tools/cmanip.cc:61: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
[02:43:28] <Kirben> ./tools/cmanip.cc:61: for each function it appears in.)
[02:43:52] * Darke goes and checks.
[02:44:46] <Kirben> nevermind
[02:44:55] <Kirben> found solution in ucxt.cc
[02:45:14] <Kirben> Just needed to add #ifdef HAVE_CONFIG_H around that line.
[02:45:37] * Darke ahhs. No problem.
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[03:17:53] <EazyCheez> Kirby!
[03:18:06] <EazyCheez> how's my favorite pink puffball doing? :)
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[05:08:04] <sb-x> ahoy hoy
[05:08:41] * Darke pawwaves. "'ello sailor! Welcome aboard!"
[05:12:34] <sb-x> Thank ye
[05:12:40] * sb-x sings Sea Shanty.
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[05:40:45] <sb-x> hmm
[05:40:53] <sb-x> can't change permissions of win95 mount point
[05:53:29] <sb-x> hmm
[05:53:34] <sb-x> sbx is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
[05:53:40] <sb-x> :-)
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[07:49:34] <sb-x> Time for the monthly topic switch yet?
[07:49:51] <Darke> Eh? Probably getting close to it. *grin*
[07:50:00] <sb-x> it is one month and 3 days
[07:51:46] <Darke> Suggestions? *grin*
[07:53:11] <sb-x> No. *sigh*
[07:54:58] --- Darke has changed the topic to: Exult: an open-source engine for Ultima 7: http://exult.sf.net/. The Computer is your Friend. *fluff*
[07:55:26] * sb-x snerks.
[07:56:06] --- Darke has changed the topic to: Exult: an open-source engine for Ultima 7: http://exult.sf.net/. No humans or monkies allowed in this channel. *fluff*
[07:56:14] * Darke thinks that one's better. *nodnod*
[07:56:19] * sb-x snerks.
[07:56:46] <sb-x> You know that nobody will understand what computers and friends and fluff and monkeys and this channel have to do with eachother if they have never been here before?
[07:57:36] <Darke> Nope. Like the could understand the reference to "No pets or cities allowed in this channel" either, without context? *grin*
[07:57:55] <sb-x> true... I never said it wasn't a good topic :)
[07:58:47] <sb-x> exultbot: No one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eaters allowed.
[07:58:57] <sb-x> Exult: No one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eaters allowed.
[07:59:27] * sb-x wonders why X-Chat is typing for him.
[08:02:44] <sb-x> Exult: an open-source engine for Ultima 7: http://exult.sf.net/ - This is not the *real* topic. Rejoin #exult to see the real topic.
[08:03:18] <Darke> Ooooooh, now _that's_ a nice topic. *grin*
[08:03:32] <sb-x> Exult: How do you keep an Avatar busy on IRC? Rejoin #exult to find out!
[08:03:33] <sb-x> heh
[08:05:06] <sb-x> Exult: an open-source engine for Ultima 7: http://exult.sf.net/ | <sb-x> Time for the monthly topic switch yet? <Darke> Suggestions? *grin* <sb-x> No. *sigh*
[08:05:26] <Darke> Tempting... *grin*
[08:06:22] <sb-x> * sb-x sings Sea Shanty.
[08:07:16] <sb-x> i guess nobody cares if i sing or not
[08:09:16] <sb-x> Hing Lung Motor Mfy - http://exult.sf.net/
[08:10:18] * Darke sings about how that is probably not a very good topic.
[08:11:31] <sb-x> exultbot: An open-source engine for Ultima 7: http://exult.sf.net - A division of Hing Lung Motor Mfy
[08:11:44] <sb-x> thats -Exult- not exultbot
[08:11:50] * sb-x sighs.
[08:12:22] <sb-x> Exult:
[08:12:24] <sb-x> there
[08:12:35] * Darke wonders if there's a law against removing a human's brains through their nostrils.
[08:12:59] <sb-x> Why ever would you want to do that?
[08:13:30] <Darke> Umm... no reason. *innocentblinkblink*
[08:13:45] <sb-x> Exult: An open-source engine for Ultima 7: http://exult.sf.net - * Darke wonders if there's a law against removing a human's brains through their nostrils.
[08:13:49] * Darke was just... umm... curious. Yeah!
[08:14:14] <sb-x> I know for certain there is no law against removing a rabbit's skin and putting it on the barbecue.
[08:14:38] * sb-x innocentrandomactions.
[08:17:44] <Darke> Yeah I know. Because all your 'equal opportunities' and 'basic rights' laws only cover humans. I do know it's illegal to kill and skin a human, though I can't understand why far more intelligent creatures them them are allowed to be hunted and tortured to death, solely because all these naked monkies desire our fur. *shrug* You monkies are weird. *grin*
[08:18:10] <sb-x> Because we can!
[08:18:21] * sb-x laughs evilly.
[08:18:45] <Darke> Like I said, you monkies are weird. *grin*
[08:19:14] <sb-x> I saw a thing on the Find an ISP site about that elmer fudd group...
[08:19:46] * Darke earperks.
[08:20:45] <sb-x> http://www.findanisp.com/usenet.php
[08:20:48] <sb-x> very bottom of page
[08:21:00] <sb-x> last question i mean
[08:21:15] <sb-x> well, out of context it isn't very funny
[08:21:26] <sb-x> it's only funny because... that question is completely out of context :)
[08:22:09] * Darke snickers and nods.
[08:25:06] <sb-x> So I guess Darke on SF Island needs to be killable for me to test my theory out. :)
[08:25:48] <sb-x> If no guards come, I'm right about it not being illegal. If they do, I'll cook them too.
[08:25:49] <Darke> *ponder* You also need the ability to add a 'rabbit skin' item to exult, and have it drop. *grin*
[08:25:57] <sb-x> hmm
[08:26:35] <sb-x> im just interested in removing the skin so i can cook you^W this virtual rabbit
[08:26:51] <sb-x> if it can be cooked with the skin, thats fine
[08:27:35] * Darke ponders. In which case you need to add usecode to handle the 'cook a bunny' event.
[08:28:35] <sb-x> they do taste alright uncooked
[08:28:52] * sb-x has killed so many rabbits in Ultima it is uncountale.
[08:29:06] <sb-x> s/uncountale/uncountable/
[08:29:24] * Darke prefers them cooked actually, it makes the meat less stringy.
[08:29:44] <Darke> But still, since your criteria is 'cooking', you still need some way to cook it.
[08:29:51] * sb-x has killed many people too so you can't say he doesn't believe in equality.
[08:30:18] <sb-x> Yeah... maybe I should just go to an Inn.
[08:30:59] <sb-x> I can try some Silverleaf... now eating -that- doesn't harm anybody does it?
[08:34:06] * Darke snickers.
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[10:11:05] * sb-x bows.
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[11:31:05] <Fingolfin> yo
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[11:46:56] <Colourless> hi
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[11:55:25] <wjp> hi
[11:56:05] <Colourless> hi
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[14:12:38] <wjp> hi
[14:12:45] <Colourless> hi
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[14:12:55] <Dominus> hi
[14:13:34] <Dominus> does anyone know if shape #153 of BG is of any use? it is called "oppressor"
[14:16:21] <Colourless> it 'might' be
[14:16:30] <Colourless> it's almost impossible to tell
[14:17:18] <Colourless> i know that si used completely transparent shapes to create false roofs
[14:18:51] <wjp> we really need to create our own data formats
[14:19:09] <wjp> all these n-bits-restrictions are silly
[14:19:32] <Dominus> yep, this is not going to lead anywehre (finding unused shapes) - at least not far
[14:19:49] <Colourless> the original game did it to save memory and for speed the same format was used on disk
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[16:02:13] <EazyCheez> THE GANG'S ALL HERE!
[16:02:19] <EazyCheez> hello Exultites :)
[16:02:29] <EazyCheez> well I don't ever see Nadir here
[16:02:44] <Colourless> no, only a few of us are here
[16:03:05] <EazyCheez> well the main people are here anyway
[16:03:16] <Dominus> and we are all very talkative as always
[16:03:25] <Dominus> not even the main people :-)
[16:04:40] <Colourless> gee, darke's not really here. fingolfin isn't here. nadir isn't here. drcode isn't here. the only 2 coders here are wjp and myself :-)
[16:04:56] <Dominus> exactly
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[16:25:28] <Dominus> bah, this bouncing is annoying
[16:25:34] <Dominus> see you
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[19:10:37] <sb-x> hi
[19:10:44] <sb-x> is it possible to extend the flex format?
[19:11:41] <Darke> Hi. Umm... how do you mean? Adding additional data formats inside it?
[19:12:33] <sb-x> adding additional data elements
[19:12:37] <sb-x> like the filename
[19:12:43] <sb-x> or file comment
[19:13:06] <sb-x> Well... I know it is possible, but is it something somebody wants to do?
[19:13:10] <Darke> You just add a 'data block' with those details.
[19:13:23] <sb-x> somebody besides myself
[19:14:18] * Darke guesses you're talking exult specific then.
[19:16:13] <sb-x> What else can they be loaded into?
[19:16:17] <sb-x> besides U7
[19:19:53] <Darke> A flex is just a general file format. IIRC, it's just a basic LBM structure without the block tags identifing each item in it.
[19:20:56] <sb-x> You'll have to tell me what LBM means. :) I meant "what else uses them?"
[19:22:05] <Darke> I know Master Of Orion and Master Of Magic use them back when I was trying to decode their images. IIRC X-COM also uses them to store some of it's data, but it's been even longer since I looked at that.
[19:23:22] <sb-x> It would exult specific then, you could put some meta-information behind each data item.
[19:24:01] <sb-x> but exult would need to know to read a header, and read either that information or null after each filled index
[19:24:09] * Darke expects a lot of old games use them, the basic format of the file is simple and it's good as an 'on disk' image/data storage system for systems with little memory. *cough* Not that 640k isn't _more_ then enough for everybody...
[19:24:29] * sb-x has 640k right now!
[19:25:18] <Darke> Umm... why before? You'd be in the previous block's data. You just add a 'header' to the current block like the specification details (and exult doesn't have, IIRC).
[19:25:50] <sb-x> How do I welcome a server?
[19:26:20] <sb-x> IRC server
[19:27:20] <Darke> Not a clue. *grin*
[19:27:59] * sb-x tries to welcome sendak.openprojects.net in Minnesota, US!
[19:28:30] <sb-x> Your idea about the flex is better... how would Exult tell an extended flex from a regular one?
[19:28:40] <sb-x> a magic number at the front of the file?
[19:28:48] <wjp> wasn't there a heap of unused bytes at the front?
[19:28:52] <sb-x> ack!
[19:29:01] * sb-x notices wjp is next to him.
[19:29:16] <sb-x> hi :)
[19:29:21] <wjp> hi :-)
[19:29:44] <sb-x> - header (128 bytes long)
[19:31:28] * Darke looks. It's actually IFF I was thinking of (LBM is the picture format most commonly used inside them), and it's a little different from the way flexes are implemented. IFF supports nesting of data XML like.
[19:32:09] <sb-x> IFF = Interchange File Format?
[19:32:17] <Darke> Yeah. That.
[19:32:34] <Darke> s/Interchange/Interchangable/ actually, but only if you're picky.
[19:32:44] <sb-x> oh
[19:32:53] <sb-x> is that what WAV is? RIFF?
[19:32:57] <sb-x> with PCM inside
[19:33:03] <sb-x> or is that mangled
[19:33:17] * Darke doesn't know. He's not touched any audio formats.
[19:34:11] <sb-x> Oh, I just remembered that I had read that WAV was like RIFF.
[19:34:16] <sb-x> What is LBM?
[19:35:21] <Darke> A graphics format.
[19:35:50] * sb-x makes up an acronym. Logical Bit-Map?
[19:36:22] <sb-x> Large
[19:36:57] <Darke> I think it's "Interchangable Large BitMap", it's 'correct' name is ILBM, but afaict most people just call it LBM. *grin*
[19:37:41] <sb-x> ooh
[19:38:00] <Darke> From the docs: ""ILBM" is a format for a 2 dimensional raster graphics image, specifically an InterLeaved bitplane BitMap image with color map."
[19:38:31] <Darke> So it actually stands for "InterLeaved BitMap". *grin*
[19:38:49] * Darke admits he wouldn't have guessed that one in a million years. *grin*
[19:38:57] * sb-x really dislikes interleaved audio/video.
[19:39:01] <sb-x> but.. anyway
[19:39:05] <sb-x> heh
[19:39:26] <sb-x> I need a good vector graphics format for my game
[19:40:09] <Darke> Surprisingly enough, I don't think there's any 'interleaving' involved. Just a compression algorythm.
[19:40:15] <sb-x> oh
[19:40:40] <Darke> Why a vector graphics format?
[19:41:04] <sb-x> interleaving is fine but it doesn't help when your trying to decode something and don't realize it is interleaved
[19:41:12] <sb-x> badnwidth
[19:41:15] <sb-x> bandwidth
[19:41:34] <sb-x> i think small pictures with a binary vector graphics format will transfer faster
[19:41:45] <sb-x> and still have color and detail
[19:42:44] * Darke suggests using an XML file to 'define' the vectors and the positions of the small pictures, etc. And wrap them all up in a zip or tar.gz file.
[19:42:53] <sb-x> and look high res even when your close
[19:42:55] <sb-x> hmm
[19:43:09] <sb-x> but then you cant display the image as it downloads
[19:43:10] <Darke> (That is, wrap the XML file and all it's associated pictures up into a zip.)
[19:43:25] <Darke> You can't anyway, unless you've already got all the small images locally.
[19:43:49] <sb-x> you can display an approximation of a shape if you have 3 coords
[19:44:15] <sb-x> your right, that isn't very good looking or fun
[19:44:36] <sb-x> fun to program :)
[19:44:49] <sb-x> i dont know why i mentioned vector graphics, sorry :)
[19:45:09] <Darke> If you were wanting to go that way, you could have a seperate *.xml.gz and a *.tar.gz file.
[19:46:36] <sb-x> SVG? VML?
[19:46:44] * Darke mumbles something about how 'skinned' vector graphics are all the rage nowdays.
[19:46:56] <sb-x> is most of the 128 bytes header unused in exult?
[19:46:56] <sb-x> the flex header
[19:47:17] <sb-x> i dont play games so I wouldn't know
[19:47:54] <Darke> Random link: http://www.w3c.org/Graphics/SVG/ I don't really know much about it though.
[19:48:08] <sb-x> i was already there
[19:48:29] <sb-x> and http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML
[19:48:38] <sb-x> it seems more generic
[19:49:06] <sb-x> i dont think SVG is XML, and VLM is
[19:49:09] <sb-x> VML
[19:49:23] * Darke points out all the 3d games and such are simply a collection of a 'vector file' aka, map/model, textured with 'small' bitmaps. *grin*
[19:49:54] <sb-x> I remember Quake map format, I guess your right.
[19:49:58] * sb-x was thinking 2D.
[19:50:54] <sb-x> by comparison, my game will use grids that are simply bitmaps
[19:51:46] <Darke> All you need is to just drop the third dimension (hight/depth) and you've got 2d. Similar to the duke3d topdown map I guess.
[19:53:19] * Darke likes VML. It's surprisingly readable.
[20:19:05] * Darke considers outputting u8usecode as XML and writing a parser to assemble it back into binary, it really shouldn't be _too_ difficult...
[20:20:33] <sb-x> It would be fun to read. :-)
[20:24:33] * Darke thinks you'd need to 'preprocess' it a little first, so you can work out which offsets you need to add jump labels too, so you don't just have them attached to every opcode. But otherwise...
[20:24:45] * Darke thinks it'd be a little scary to read actually. *grin*
[20:35:14] <sb-x> Blackbox is reading one of my terminals as four terminals.
[20:36:29] <sb-x> and.. i have 3 Pans open???
[20:37:03] * Darke thinks it might be a convenient time to kill your window manager and start it again. *grin*
[20:37:47] <sb-x> Oooh strange... each Restart->Blackbox makes a new Pan and aterm entry show up
[20:38:58] <sb-x> Now there are 9 aterms and 6 Pans
[20:39:32] * Darke blinkblinks.
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[21:02:06] * Darke watches the imperfect wjp_ clone sneak into the channel, and waits for him to kill the real wjp and take his place almost unnoticed.
[21:02:28] <sb-x> Darke: now you screwed up his chance to do it unnoticed
[21:02:46] <Darke> Of course. *grin*
[21:03:59] * sb-x imagines an imperfect wjp_ clone living underground on SF Island.
[21:05:56] <Darke> Stop that! Dominus already has too many Evil Ideas(tm) of his own, he doesn't need yours. *grin*
[21:09:09] <sb-x> ... and Colourless chasing Darke around the island for messing up CVS
[21:10:33] <sb-x> and Darke hiding behind a rock, and wjp putting a big sign above the rock with an arrow pointing down
[21:12:36] <-- wjp has left IRC (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: wjp_!~wjp@ip503c5297.speed.planet.nl)))
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[21:12:42] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to wjp
[21:12:58] * sb-x is scared.
[21:15:15] * Darke points at wjp. See! I told you!
[21:16:10] * wjp notices topic
[21:16:18] <wjp> hmmm...
[21:27:06] <Darke> Hmm... I think I'm going to have to cut down a little on the datatype details, this: `(word) [BP-02h] = (word) ((word) [BP-02h] + (byte) 0x01h)` is getting a little too pedantic even for me. *grin*
[21:35:20] <sb-x> colorize it
[21:35:38] * sb-x has been using grc recently.
[21:37:23] * Darke was more thinking of reducing it to `(word) [BP-02h]+=(byte) 0x01h` or `(word) ++[BP-02h]`. Most of the comparisons and math logic look pretty simple.
[21:37:28] <Darke> grc?
[21:37:40] <sb-x> generic colourizer
[21:37:48] <sb-x> it is python
[21:40:10] <sb-x> 11(7word11) 11[9BP8-902h11] 8= 11(7word11) 11(11(7word11) 11[9BP8-902h11] 8+ 11(7byte11) 90x01h11)
[21:40:20] * Darke will skip colour for the moment. He's still only reading most of it through 'tail'.
[21:40:50] <Darke> All things considered, I think I prefer the black&white one. *grin*
[21:41:15] <sb-x> :)
[21:41:20] <sb-x> can you replace BP-02h?
[21:41:33] <sb-x> with a descriptive name
[21:42:20] <Darke> Sometime in the future I hope. *grin*
[21:42:42] <sb-x> what about the casts?
[21:42:53] <sb-x> i didnt know you had to explicitly cast word to word
[21:43:13] <Darke> Only one of The Games We Don't Support has proper names for their variables. So it'll likely be something like `Word word02`. *grin*
[21:43:29] <Darke> It currently outputs the datatype whether we need to know it or not.
[21:44:15] * wjp bought both of The Games We Don't Support from ebay
[21:44:30] <wjp> but I have absolutely no intention of supporting them :-)
[21:44:38] <sb-x> :-(
[21:44:40] <Darke> It's just saying that the value to the right of it, is of that type. Logically I should be have `(word)` where that `(byte)` is, since that's what the code is going to be doing. *grin*
[21:45:27] <sb-x> if the byte is a word than cant you just ++word02
[21:45:36] <sb-x> ++[BP - 2h]
[21:45:43] * Darke wants to acquire copies of TGWDS and playing through them to see how they look.
[21:46:16] * sb-x has never played TGYDS 2.
[21:48:53] <Darke> Yeah. But the problem is that you've currently got a tree that looks something like (pop word (add (word byte))), where the 'pop', can't access the values in the 'add', nor even knows of the existance of the 'add', it's just a Node* to it. *grin*
[22:22:13] --- Darke is now known as Darke|afk
[22:26:24] <-- sb-x has left IRC ("bye")
[23:06:01] --> Roman has joined #exult
[23:12:13] <-- EazyCheez has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[23:14:16] * wjp decides now would be a good time to go to bed
[23:14:20] <wjp> 'night
[23:14:24] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz...")
[23:19:24] --- Darke|afk is now known as Darke
[23:21:36] --> zzzzzz has joined #exult
[23:40:11] <zzzzzz> long live lord british ;)
[23:40:57] * Darke accidentally bumps a gold plaque. Oops.
[23:50:58] <-- zzzzzz has left IRC ("gone for good (... to eat some food)")
[23:58:38] <-- Roman has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))