#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 29 Oct 2003 (GMT)

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[13:29:23] <Coren_> Woot! Bump mapping, with some clever trickery, that works at good speed even on older cards. :-)
[13:40:11] <Colourless> uh, hi or something
[13:41:24] <Coren_> "something" will do. But "Hi" too. :-)
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[14:21:11] <wjp> something ;-)
[14:21:27] <Coren_> Hey Willem. How goes?
[14:21:41] <Colourless> comedians all round
[14:21:51] <wjp> and you only figured that out now? :-)
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[15:27:47] <Coren_> I need to gloat a bit: http://tab.ctrl-alt-del.ca/~marc/foo.png Bumpmapping, proper shadows, fast, and /no/ acceleration beyond arb_texture_env_dot3. :-)
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[15:53:15] <wjp> oh, I checked. I don't have that one
[15:53:37] <wjp> (tnt2ultra)
[15:55:08] <Coren_> Ouch. It's needed for proper diffuse lighting with my current scheme (though I will eventually have a downgrade method for cards without that will (obviously) be much less Nifty).
[15:56:12] <Colourless> you'll have to go per vertex
[15:56:22] <Colourless> or do something else
[15:57:06] <Coren_> I can eleminate the angle of incidence term from the diffuse lighting equation. That will kill bumpmapping (of course) and make the world look a bit 'flat', but it'll work.
[15:57:09] <Colourless> or you could think if it's not good enough for carmack, it's not good enough for me, and just don't have a fall back :-)
[15:57:19] <Colourless> doom 3 requires dot3 + cubemaps
[15:57:26] <Colourless> (or better)
[15:57:42] <Coren_> I require dot3 but not qubemaps.
[15:57:48] <Coren_> s/qu/cu/
[15:58:26] <Colourless> cubemaps are used to normalize the light vector
[15:58:39] <Coren_> But my technique is really, really nifty. :-) I'm all fuzzy happy about having conceived it. :-)
[15:59:06] <Colourless> sorry to spoil your celebrations, but i doubt what you have come up with is really that 'unique'
[15:59:16] <Coren_> I know. And that's exactly why I /dont/ use cubemaps. I have a funkily denormalized light vector voxel 3d texture. :-)
[15:59:46] <Colourless> 3d texture you say :-)
[15:59:53] <Coren_> Well, no attempt at googling anything similar found anything. If anyone else figured it out yet, they're keeping it for themselves. :-)
[15:59:55] <Colourless> i'm guessing it's pretty small
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[16:00:16] <Coren_> Yeah, it's fairly small buy you wouldn't know visually.
[16:01:12] <Coren_> I can increase its resolution at great cost in texture memory; but try as I might I couldn't find a visual difference above a certain (32x32x32) point.
[16:03:16] <Coren_> Right now the 3d texture eats only 96K of texture memory, which is insignificant on cards which support dot3 to begin with. :-)
[16:05:41] <Coren_> Hm, well, actually 192K-3 since I generate mipmaps.
[16:09:01] <Coren_> Hmmm. Should I drown out the texture color in the light color when I oversaturate or clip to full texture brightness?
[16:09:47] <Colourless> that entirely depends on the effect you want
[16:11:08] <Coren_> I was asking for you opinion on the matter; I'm quite undecided.
[16:12:10] <Coren_> The former requires an extra texture unit, the latter an extra pass.
[16:12:12] <Colourless> ideally you want to oversaturate the texture colour, but you can only do that using 'tricks'
[16:12:39] <Colourless> or other extensions
[16:13:31] <Colourless> i don't really have an opinion on the matter.
[16:13:40] <Coren_> Hm; oversaturating the texture color is equivalent to drowning it out to the light color in white and near-white lights, which would be most.
[16:14:01] <Colourless> no, it's not actually
[16:14:23] <Colourless> lets say our total light colour for a pixel ends up being '2', and our texture colour is 0.25.
[16:14:33] <Colourless> The output pixel would end up being 0.5
[16:14:45] <Coren_> Well, texture rgb { .7, .5, .3 } lighted { 2, 2, 2 } should give { 1.0, 1.0, .6 } no?
[16:14:56] <Colourless> yes it would.
[16:15:11] <Coren_> Then this is what I can do with the previous method.
[16:15:35] <Colourless> just depends on how far want to go with overbrighting
[16:16:05] <Colourless> you need to be aware of hardware limitations though. such techniques may not look the same on all hardware
[16:17:17] <Coren_> Actually, because of the way I do things, it would by definition. But it'd be a bit funky on lights that are far from white... then again, I don't expect I should have colored lights so bright and close to surfaces often enough (or long enough) for the artefact to be noticable.
[16:19:08] <Coren_> Spell effects would be the primary source of colored light and those would normally be fairly dim and transient.
[16:21:03] <Coren_> At any rate, thanks for letting me bounce on your brain. Helped clarify things.
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[17:03:38] <wjp> hi again
[17:03:46] <Colourless> wb
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[17:36:00] <wjp> hi
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[19:58:31] <Colourless> going
[19:58:32] <Colourless> ./quit
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[22:26:50] <wjp> hi Max
[22:27:19] * wjp started reading the Silmarillion recently
[22:27:27] <wjp> somewhat weird to read about Fingolfin there :-)
[22:27:36] <Fingolfin> hehe
[22:27:46] * Coren_ chuckles.
[22:27:52] <Fingolfin> not everybody can point at books written about them, aye
[22:28:04] <Fingolfin> but at least now you can learn all the truth about me and my life!
[22:28:15] <Coren_> You win a virtual Jujube if you can name the book(s) where you can read about me. :-)
[22:28:20] <wjp> including the little-known fact that you're actually dead? :-)
[22:28:36] <wjp> Coren_: does google count? :-)
[22:28:48] <Coren_> Heh.
[22:28:53] <Coren_> No, of course.
[22:29:09] <wjp> can I at least google for what a Jujube is? :-)
[22:29:44] * Coren_ chuckles. It's a candy. Softer than a jelly bean. Almost pure sugar in bright colors. :-)
[22:32:26] <wjp> I need a hint :-)
[22:32:40] <Coren_> Erm, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.
[22:33:02] <wjp> are those authors I should know? :-)
[22:33:26] <Coren_> Aaack! *cough* *sputter*
[22:33:32] <wjp> dragonlance, apparently
[22:33:33] <Coren_> Shame shame shame!
[22:33:53] <wjp> or "death gate cycle"? *cough*
[22:34:07] <Coren_> Nah, that is their earlier work. Kinda cute but not great.
[22:34:24] <Coren_> Yep; comes from death gate. :-)
[22:34:29] <Coren_> Isn't Google fun?
[22:34:35] <wjp> everything2, in fact :-)
[22:35:43] <Coren_> They're actually very good. Death gate is much fun; and so is the Dragonlance stuff. The first DL trilogy is overly corny, though, but is required reading as background for the rest.
[22:36:15] <Coren_> Kinda like the Hobbit. :-)
[22:38:57] <Coren_> Avaliable in cheap paperback collections by now. I recomment it if you're looking for a bit of fun if light reading.
[22:39:17] <wjp> DG or DL?
[22:40:00] <wjp> (or both? :-) )
[22:40:13] <Coren_> Either/Both. DG is more intricate and involved, and a much longer read.
[22:40:51] <Coren_> DL is two easier to digest trilogies, and a *large* number of associated short stories.
[22:41:14] <Coren_> DG is an heptalogy, if there is such a term. :-)
[22:41:45] <wjp> if you want there to be, there is :-)
[22:42:20] <Coren_> Certainly sounds better than 'n-book trilogy' I've seen in the media. Feh.
[22:42:39] <wjp> hm, I thought only the HHGTTG 'trilogy' was labelled as such? :-)
[22:43:21] <Coren_> Nah, it's also used unwittingly by members of the uneducated press. :-)
[22:44:04] <Coren_> I'm the kind of guy who will randomly shout at newscasters and TV drones on occasion. "No! It's NYE-KEE!" and such. :-)
[22:44:43] <wjp> nye-kee?
[22:45:00] <wjp> is that the 'official' pronunciation?
[22:45:15] <Coren_> Hmm. You probably didn't get that reference. Here, in Quebec, almost everybody pronounces "Nike" (the sportsgear manufacturer) "Nyke".
[22:45:17] <wjp> I kind of thought it was from the greek godess 'nike'
[22:45:30] <wjp> (which is pronounced nee-keh, I guess)
[22:45:39] <wjp> hard to write phonetically in english :-)
[22:45:57] <Coren_> Well, according to the Nike spokespersons it's Nye-Kee. :-)
[22:46:01] <wjp> yes, I got the reference :-)
[22:47:12] <Coren_> I actually was rolling on the floor once. There was an interview of some Nike major PR dude on TV some time ago, and the inverviewer kept pronouncing "Nyke". The PG guy acted like he didn't hear so as to diplomatically not offend the journalist...
[22:48:11] <wjp> :-)
[22:48:23] <Coren_> But the dialog went like "So, does Nyke do blah, blah, blah" - "We at NYE-KEE blah blah blah" every time the PR dude would add emphasis to the pronounciation and grow visibly annoyed, but the journalist never got the clue. :-)
[22:48:50] <wjp> heh :-)
[22:49:38] <Coren_> Kudos to the Nike guy. I would probably have strangled the journalist at the 6th or 7th nyke, but he (mostly) kept his cool. :-)
[22:50:11] <wjp> they're probably given extensive training to deal with mispronunciation :-)
[22:50:34] <Coren_> At the end he was going something like "Yes, at (2 sec pause) NYE (1 sec pause) KEE (2 sec pause) blah blah blah". :-)
[22:51:41] <Coren_> I'm such a geek to care about things like that.
[22:51:55] <wjp> "Later the company was renamed Nike after the Greek goddess of victory."
[22:52:07] <wjp> so they got it pretty much entirely wrong :-)
[22:52:21] <Coren_> I'm also the kind of guy that gets angry at ads that promise "75% whiter teeth" or whatever.
[22:52:41] <wjp> hm, I'd like to see a definition of "75% whiter" :-)
[22:52:43] <Coren_> Hey, it's their name. *They* get to choose how its mispronounced! :-)
[22:53:22] <Coren_> Hell, I'd like to see a definition of "whiter" I could agree to, let alone some means of quantifying it!
[22:55:21] <wjp> how about "75% of all persons queried thought the 'after' teeth were whiter than the 'before' teeth?"
[22:55:37] <wjp> (where whiter is the subjective opinion of each person asked)
[22:55:59] <Coren_> Well, that still wouldn't be "75% whiter".
[22:56:00] <wjp> hm, "subjective opinion" is a bit redundant, I guess :-)
[22:56:13] <wjp> true
[22:56:21] <Coren_> And I guess that long quote doesn't have "marketing oomph".
[22:56:33] <wjp> the truth rarely does :-)
[22:57:04] <wjp> one marketing phrase that annoys me is "medisch erkend" (dutch)
[22:57:11] <wjp> it roughly means "medically acknowledged"
[22:57:14] <Coren_> One of my all time faves was some toothbush that, IIRC, claimed to remove "17% more plaque". The first time I saw it I went like, what? Not 18%? What a piece of crap!
[22:57:35] <wjp> makes me wonder if they got a doctor to say "yes, product X really exists."
[22:57:41] <Coren_> LOL
[22:58:42] <wjp> I'm sure you can get the 18% if you brush just a _bit_ longer :-)
[22:59:11] <Coren_> The common one up here is "Eprouve dans des tests cliniques" I.e. "tested in clinical tryouts". First off, there is no such thing as a "clinical tryout". Secondly, even if there was, all they say is that it was tested, not what any putative results were.
[22:59:23] <wjp> ah, yes, we have that too :-)
[22:59:36] <wjp> (well, something similar)
[22:59:49] <wjp> "getest door dermatologen", or something
[22:59:59] <wjp> (tested by dermatologists)
[23:00:06] <wjp> they always like to throw in 'big words' there :-)
[23:00:12] <Coren_> "It was thoroughly tested by doctors [and found to be worthless garbage]". :-)
[23:01:24] <Coren_> I expect you guys have similar laws to here that forbit lying in ads?
[23:01:33] <wjp> yeah
[23:01:41] <wjp> not sure of the details, though
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[23:02:01] <Coren_> Here, the ad weasels have gotten *amazingly* creative at saying things that mean absolutely nothing but couldn't possibly be proven false. :-)
[23:02:46] <Coren_> Listening to the oogles of pseudo science and hand waving would be amusing were it not for the fact that people *do* fall for the garbage.
[23:04:01] <Coren_> Said of a (powerful) cleaning agent containing peroxide: "Uses the power of OXYGEN to clean; the same as in pure air!"
[23:04:18] <wjp> right...
[23:04:36] <wjp> of course the properties of oxygen and peroxide are just a _bit_ different :-)
[23:04:44] <Coren_> Thus givin the impression that it's harmless and environmentally friendly. It's effective stuff allright, but damn nasty. :-)
[23:05:41] <Coren_> Right, but it /is/ true, in a way-- peroxide's solvent capacities /does/ come from the stronger hydrogen bond created by the extra O atom compared to water. :-)
[23:05:41] <wjp> and there's the use of the word "lipide" (lipids?) which basically just means "fat", but that doesn't sound as nice :-)
[23:06:02] <Coren_> lipids, yes.
[23:07:11] <wjp> some marketing people once thought up the word 'formaline' for some skin (or maybe dieting) product or something
[23:07:30] <wjp> since it contains 'form' and 'line' (we call dieting 'lijnen', which is pronounced similarly)
[23:07:39] <Coren_> Here, the fad for a while was "ions". Like they were some sort of magical pixie dust or something. "Uses the power of ions to [blah blah blah]". Of course, they never mention that by definition *any* solution makes ions; or specifies WHAT ions they are talking about.
[23:07:41] <wjp> of course 'formaline' already existed :-)
[23:07:57] <wjp> (and is used for something they did _not_ want their product to be associated with :-) )
[23:08:02] <wjp> (I think the english word is 'formalin')
[23:08:11] <Coren_> Hell, we even had an "Ionic toothbrush"!
[23:08:22] <wjp> wow, ions!
[23:08:38] <wjp> makes it sound very high-tech :-)
[23:08:53] <wjp> not any solution, btw, just those of.. uh.. salts?
[23:09:28] <wjp> that's probably not the right english term, though
[23:09:41] <Coren_> I said solution, not suspension. :-) And yes, salt is correct.
[23:10:26] <wjp> well, that's good to know :-)
[23:11:42] <Coren_> Well, check this out. This "Ionic toothbrush" was supposed to electrostatically charge plaque and teeth so that they pushed each other away. Of course, the *chemical* bond would not be affected, something they didn't bother to mention. They don't explain either how the brush (which holds a tiny cell) is supposed to apply an electrostatic charge to the teeth. Nor do they explain what ions have to do with any of this, besides claiming 'with
[23:12:02] <wjp> (cut off after "claiming 'with")
[23:12:16] <Coren_> ...claiming 'with the power of ions...'. :-)
[23:12:19] <wjp> hm, I think we had that one here too
[23:12:35] <wjp> I can remember the computer animations showing the plaque just magically disappear :-)
[23:13:55] <Coren_> Of course, the caption would read, in tiny unreadable print /designed/ not to be visible, something like "Simulation". :-)
[23:14:27] <wjp> of course :-)
[23:14:37] <wjp> wouldn't want to lie :-)
[23:14:52] <Coren_> Heh. Car manufacturers are the worse. Here, they are mandated by law to state a number of things when they claim a price (such as, what it includes, what the payment terms are, if a downpayment is required, etc).
[23:15:47] <Coren_> So, in all of their ads, for about 1 second at the end of the comercial, there is about 150 words of text written in a font that is exactly two scanlines high. Impossible to read even on the best monitor from the master. :-)
[23:16:05] <wjp> :-)
[23:16:49] <wjp> "but it was perfectly readable on the pc monitor we designed it on!"
[23:16:55] <wjp> *feigned shock* :-)
[23:17:10] <wjp> (at 400% zoom... *cough*)
[23:17:29] <Coren_> They don't even bother. The law says they have to /include/ the information, not that it should be actually readable. Weasels all. :-)
[23:18:54] <Coren_> Heh. Back to LoW. The digression was fun. :-)
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[23:19:11] <Coren_> I'm still immensely happy at my bumpmapping and lighting code. :-)
[23:19:33] <wjp> I should go look for a newer graphics card :-)
[23:19:42] <wjp> do they still make fan-less cards?
[23:21:09] <Coren_> Heh. Mind is fanless and fairly decent (nVidia FX 5200)
[23:21:29] <Coren_> s/Mind/Mine/
[23:22:10] <Coren_> Wasn't overly expensive either. I always buy the previous-generation 3d cards-- much better value.
[23:22:49] <Coren_> The trick is: go for the features/price and ignore online reviews. When they don't outright lie, they are biased and never look at the important stuff.
[23:23:06] <wjp> I feel no particular need to get 'the fastest' 3d card
[23:23:32] <Coren_> the FX 5200 supports vertex and fragment programs, has four texture units, a decent fill rate, and works flawlessly under Linux.
[23:23:41] <wjp> no fan and supporting some semi-recent games should be enough
[23:24:09] <Coren_> Heh. It can play Arx Fatalis with all the settings at maximum. That's good enough a benchmark for me. :-)
[23:26:15] <Coren_> At any rate, if my opinion has value to you, I recommend it. Good value. I'm pleased with the purchase.
[23:27:48] * wjp is just looking at some prices online :-)
[23:27:52] <Coren_> And despite some free software zealots whining about the binary Linux driver, I have no moral qualms about their method, since it works well and they support it. :-)
[23:28:17] <wjp> I have a tnt2ultra and am using nvidia's drivers
[23:29:36] <wjp> the early ones were a bit unstable, but I have no real complaints about the more recent versions
[23:29:57] <wjp> (other than the fact that at some point they limited the tnt2ultra to 75Hz at 1600x1200... grr...)
[23:30:12] <wjp> used to have 85Hz without any problems
[23:31:09] <Coren_> Heh. There might very well be causality there! Mebbe the tnt2ultra was unstable at the dot clock needed to go over 75Hz at that resolution. :-)
[23:31:19] <wjp> I was just wondering about that too :-)
[23:32:10] <Coren_> Can you cat me the output of your glxinfo? I'm curious to see what extensions this card has
[23:32:11] <Coren_> ?
[23:32:11] <wjp> let's see what we have here... Asus V9520 Magic GF FX5200, 128Mb DDR, 8xAGP, TV-Out, for 80Eur
[23:32:42] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/glxinfo
[23:33:02] <wjp> 80 Euros, hm, quite cheap
[23:33:09] <Coren_> Sounds just a bit steep, but you might be paying for Asus name (and reliability)
[23:33:32] <wjp> it looks a lot cheaper when you look at the cards above and below it :-)
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[23:33:41] <Coren_> I paid mine about 80 CAD ~= 65 Euro. But it wasn't an Asus.
[23:33:56] <wjp> prices go up rather rapidly up to Eur589
[23:34:16] <wjp> (For some "Asus V9950 ULTRA TD de Luxe FX5900/256MB VIVO")
[23:34:54] <wjp> this store has a rather limited selection, though
[23:35:27] <wjp> there's a Gainward PRO/660 FX5200 128Mb/TV+DVI for Eur85
[23:35:43] <wjp> a PINE XFX FX5200 256Mb 8xAGP TVI/DVI for Eur119
[23:36:02] <wjp> (I guess the added memory makes that last one a bit more pricey)
[23:36:06] <Coren_> Ack! The TNT2 doesn't even have EXT_texture3D!
[23:36:41] <Coren_> I don't think over 128M is that useful. I mean, that's a LOT of texture memory already. :-)
[23:39:33] <Coren_> God. I had no idea the TNT2 was sooo old! :-)
[23:39:43] <wjp> sure, rub it in ;-)
[23:40:04] * Coren_ chuckles.
[23:40:47] <Coren_> I wouldn't have known, at the time nVidia was a bit player. Before my GE2 I had a Voodoo3. :-)
[23:41:40] <Coren_> Why would someone be insane enough to pay almost 600Eur for a video card that is going to be deemed hopelessly outdaded in 6 months and sell for <200?
[23:41:56] <wjp> beats me :-)
[23:42:31] <Coren_> And the 5200 supports both dot3 and cube_map == Doom3 requirements. :-)
[23:43:40] <wjp> I don't particularly care about doom3 :-)
[23:44:12] <Coren_> I'm no fanboy, and I'll probably wait until it gets to the bargain bin, but I /am/ looking forward to it. :-)
[23:46:20] <Coren_> I guess that's why I never buy the latest video cards. You only need those if you want to be l337 and get 1.2% bigger framerate at the latest game du jour. :-)
[23:46:55] <Coren_> By the time I get a game, whatever video card I have at that point is usually good enough. :-) Arx Fatalis being the sole exception.
[23:47:12] <wjp> I'm considering getting NWN
[23:47:38] <wjp> and I'm fairly sure my tnt2 won't cut it :-)
[23:49:07] <wjp> (although apparently it does fit the mininum sysreqs)
[23:49:10] <Coren_> Heh. Can it even handle 'sproingies'? :-)
[23:49:30] <wjp> do I want to know what those are? :-)
[23:50:14] <Coren_> You probably have it on your box. It's a GL screensaver hack. 'locate sproingies'
[23:50:27] <wjp> oh, indeed I do
[23:50:38] <wjp> ah, those
[23:51:11] <wjp> the weird, cylinder-like objects going down something resembling the UW2 ethereal void pyramids :-)
[23:51:21] * Coren_ chuckles.
[23:51:34] <wjp> yes, it can handle that
[23:51:35] <Coren_> Oh, you are going to *love* my new Talorus! :-)
[23:51:54] <Coren_> It's the only world I'm going to actually mess with the geometry. :-)
[23:52:18] * wjp looks at the clock and oopses
[23:52:25] * Coren_ waves.
[23:52:33] <wjp> good guess :-)
[23:53:01] <Coren_> Gotta scoot too.
[23:53:18] <wjp> thanks for the graphics-card-advice :-)
[23:53:33] <Coren_> Me pleasure. :-)
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