#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 2 Feb 2004 (GMT)

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[08:58:23] <Zxcvb> is 256 kilobytes of ram and 64 kilobytes of writable save area enough for exult?
[08:59:55] <wjp> are you sure you mean kilobytes?
[09:00:43] <Zxcvb> yes
[09:00:57] <Zxcvb> 32mb of read only memory
[09:00:57] <wjp> not even close to being enough
[09:01:08] <Darke> Considering the original u7 required a minimum of 4Meg of ram... no. *grin*
[09:01:18] <Zxcvb> so how can they do prince of persia sands of time or golden sun in 256k
[09:01:46] <Darke> It's a complete rewrite? I've no idea with that game, since I've never seen it.
[09:01:53] <Zxcvb> it's for gba
[09:02:19] <Zxcvb> there is even a snes emulator coming out for it, so if snes can be done in 256k at decent speed why not ultima
[09:03:36] <Darke> Because ultima7 was designed for a minimum spec of 4meg, and no doubt they had problems cramming it into that, and most of the original snes games were designed for much less? Can't say, I've never been much into the emulator scene past c64.
[09:03:37] <wjp> speed is another thing altogether
[09:05:16] <Zxcvb> it would have to be modified to run most things from rom, and store alot more in the 64k save area
[09:05:31] <wjp> there's no room for "a lot more" in 64k :-)
[09:06:27] <Darke> Weren't the original u7 saves around a meg? Don't have dosbox setup with it at the moment, so can't check.
[09:06:42] <wjp> about 300-400Kb
[09:06:59] <Zxcvb> so, my ultima 9 saves are about 5MB
[09:07:14] <Zxcvb> zip gets it down to about 500k
[09:07:35] <wjp> these get down to 160Kb zipped
[09:07:37] <Zxcvb> and ultima 7 was on the snes
[09:07:52] <wjp> heh, I wouldn't call that ultima 7
[09:08:17] <Zxcvb> what would you call it?
[09:08:39] <wjp> not sure, but let's just say that they didn't leave much of the original intact
[09:08:55] <wjp> (not that I have any personal experience with it)
[09:09:03] <Zxcvb> how much could they have left intact
[09:09:56] <Zxcvb> the snes only had 128k after all
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[09:10:37] <Darke> They would have been able to leave a fair amount of the world intact, since that would have been all read-only, but they'd have had to strip out quite a few of the items... hrm... now I want to hunt down a snes emulator to see just how bad it was.
[09:11:55] <Zxcvb> what about converting the inventory to a list?
[09:12:07] <Zxcvb> that is, not having a graphical backpack
[09:12:34] <wjp> that would save you the graphics of the backpack; doesn't matter much, since that would be in rom
[09:15:15] <Zxcvb> sounds like it would need a total rewrite to even attempt
[09:16:09] <Darke> Yep.
[09:16:39] <Zxcvb> probably wouldn't look much like ultima 7 after it was finished either
[09:18:24] <Zxcvb> and with a maximum size of 256 megabits, pre-rendering most of the graphics wouldn't be that easy either
[09:19:12] <Darke> The 'problem' essentially is that the graphics of the game itself are just too large and varied in such a small area.
[09:19:38] <Zxcvb> what about splitting it into a smaller area
[09:19:46] <Darke> You only need to load up the tiles in the areas surrounding the avatar, but even doing that the original devs needed 4Meg of real memory, using the hdd as swap.
[09:20:19] <Zxcvb> what about ignoring the rest of the game world except near the avatar
[09:21:12] <Darke> That's essentially what the original devs did. Only loading up a 3x3 'chunk' area around the avatar.
[09:21:44] <Zxcvb> or possibly even ignoring the original tiles/data/code and making a clone based on ultima 7 information
[09:21:46] <Darke> That way you don't have large lag everytime the avatar moves near the edge of the current chunk as it loads the new one.
[09:22:20] <Zxcvb> similar to the ultima 3 clone/rewrite on the gameboy color that uses none of the original data/code
[09:22:20] <Darke> Mmm... yes. Only problems is you'd essentially be writing an entire new game...
[09:22:46] <Zxcvb> check out dragon warrior for the ti-89
[09:23:41] <Darke> You'd find that's how a lot of the new GBA ports are of the old games. Simply a rewrite with new/readjusted graphics.
[09:24:27] <wjp> "simply" :-)
[09:25:03] <Darke> If you've got access to the original source and documentation on the original game, it is 'simply'. *grin*
[09:25:11] <Zxcvb> while it uses the original dragon warrior map, town/dungeon layouts, formulas, characters, monsters, etc it has no code in common with the nes version
[09:25:19] <Zxcvb> not simply
[09:25:36] <Zxcvb> most of those games were hand coded and optimized assembly
[09:25:56] <Zxcvb> I am not sure how snes emulation on gba will be possible
[09:26:14] <Zxcvb> but if they can do that, who knows
[09:27:16] * Darke shrugs. Who knows.
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[14:19:27] <Nadir> hi
[14:19:37] <Nadir> Darke, just saw the logs and I wanted to correct you on something :)
[14:19:50] <Nadir> U7 required 2MB
[14:19:57] <Nadir> U8 required 4MB
[14:20:02] <Darke> Ahh. Cool.
[14:20:17] <Darke> I can't imagine trying to run u7 on 2Meg though. *grin* No doubt someone's done it!
[14:20:27] <Nadir> I did it on a 386SX-16
[14:20:35] <Nadir> 40MB hard disk
[14:21:07] <Darke> Ow. I had enough problems with a 33Mhz 486SX. *grin*
[14:21:13] <Nadir> I don't think U7 really takes advantage of memory over > 2MB
[14:21:41] <Nadir> in fact you're better off giving the extra ram to smartdrv
[14:22:05] <Nadir> when I got my 4MB 486DX-33 I gave it a 2MB smartdrv
[14:22:11] <Nadir> and it flew !
[14:22:47] <Nadir> My Serpent Isle box also says that they improved performance over Black Gate by about 30%
[14:23:38] <Nadir> Although I bet that the improvement I got from smartdrv made that improvement unnoticeable
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[14:24:24] <Nadir> Hi Colourless
[14:25:16] <wjp> hi Nadir, Colourless
[14:25:25] <Colourless> hi
[14:27:10] <Nadir> good work on the muppet guardian issue :)
[14:34:09] <Darke> Greetings Colourless.
[14:34:42] * Darke is still in shocked disbelief that anyone could run u7 on a 486DX/33 and have it 'fly'. *grin*
[14:35:37] <Colourless> a friend of mine ran it on a DX16 or DX20 or something (yes it was really really slow cpu) and the games seemed to run ok
[14:36:08] <Colourless> He even ran Doom on it.... now that was awful
[14:36:34] <Nadir> doom on a 486SX-25 wasn't that bad
[14:37:00] <Colourless> yes, you are talking about a 486 there :-)
[14:37:22] <Colourless> a 486 SX was still much faster than a 386 DX of the same speed
[14:37:48] <Nadir> infact I don't think they made anything less than a 25Mhz 486
[14:38:23] <Nadir> the 486SX was a pretty silly CPU as it had a disabled FPU :)
[14:38:25] * Colourless should have specified that he was infact talking about a 386 DX :-)
[14:38:51] <Colourless> the 486SX was intel attempting to sell 486DX's that didn't have a functional FPU :-)
[14:40:28] <Nadir> Some of the early Pentiums were sold with a non-functional FPU, but that didn't stop Intel selling them as if they worked :)
[14:40:48] <Colourless> :-)
[14:41:40] <Nadir> if I cat /proc/cpuinfo on my Linux box I get the following:
[14:41:51] <Nadir> fdiv_bug : no
[14:41:51] <Nadir> hlt_bug : no
[14:41:51] <Nadir> f00f_bug : no
[14:41:51] <Nadir> coma_bug : no
[14:42:00] <Nadir> f00f :)
[14:43:11] * Darke blinks and hits google to find out what the heck that is.
[14:43:46] <Nadir> f00f was pretty nasty
[14:45:23] <Darke> "The f00f bug consists in freezing your CPU when it encounters a command sequence with the hex string f00f" *blink* That explains it, and also tells me exactly nothing.
[14:46:35] <Nadir> f00f is some kind of machine code prefix for exception handling or for certain privileged instructions
[14:47:04] <Nadir> can't really remember. But basically any program, even user-space, could lock up a box by issuing that opcode
[14:48:08] <Colourless> F0 LOCK 0 Assert LOCK# signal for the next instruction
[14:48:45] <Colourless> 0F is then a prefix for extra opcodes
[14:51:12] <Colourless> The LOCK prefix causes the LOCK# signal of the 80386 to be asserted during execution of the instruction that follows it. In a multiprocessor environment, this signal can be used to ensure that the 80386 has exclusive use of any shared memory while LOCK# is asserted. The read-modify-write sequence typically used to implement test-and-set on the 80386 is the BTS instruction.
[14:51:37] <Darke> http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentium/ppiie/
[14:51:58] <Darke> Seems to be the offial erratum... though that paragraph makes a bit more sense. *grin*
[14:56:02] <Darke> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=66opng%248fe%241%40malibu.unice.fr&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain <- A rather amusing summarisation of different vendors responses to that particular bug. Usenet archives are cool. *grin*
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[16:59:36] <wjp> hi Fingolfin
[17:00:03] <wjp> was your Mac OS X binary intentionally dynamically linked against SDL?
[17:00:35] <Colourless> hi
[17:01:49] <Fingolfin> wjp: uhm? it was???
[17:01:57] <Fingolfin> "no" is the answer =)
[17:02:18] <Fingolfin> at least that explains why it was so small =)
[17:02:39] <Fingolfin> I'll fix it ASAP
[17:02:55] <wjp> some guy on the forum went into a huge rant about the injustice of requiring fink :-)
[17:03:04] <Fingolfin> which reminds me, I should try to fix --static-libs for SDL/OSX =)
[17:03:08] <Fingolfin> lol
[17:03:35] <Colourless> bah, I see nothing wrong with Fingolfin requiring that someone having to need something else he is involved with :-)
[17:03:42] <Fingolfin> I don't care much about people who rant. Usually, igorning ranters is a very good policy =). Sensible people can bring up complaints in a sensible fashion
[17:03:51] <Fingolfin> you don't need fink
[17:04:02] <Fingolfin> you can get away with symlinking your libSDL.dylib to /sw/lib =)
[17:04:13] <Colourless> this individual thinks otherwise
[17:04:23] <wjp> well, I think that not liking fink tends to correlate with not liking unixy things
[17:04:38] <Fingolfin> well I think ranting before asking if this was maybe a mistake is simply stupid :-) anyway
[17:04:41] <wjp> (and symlinking would probably count as a unixy thing :-) )
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[17:33:50] --- Topic for #exult is: Exult: an open-source engine for Ultima 7. http://exult.sf.net/
[17:33:50] --- Topic for #exult set by wjp at Tue Jan 6 09:55:17 2004
[17:33:51] <Colourless> like... Pentagram, sort of :-)
[17:34:07] <Fingolfin> I think I've asked this a couple time before, but uhm, how again do I recover my Phorum account/password? :-)
[17:34:15] <Colourless> bitch to us :-)
[17:34:16] <wjp_> Fingolfin: you don't :-)
[17:34:26] <Fingolfin> ah good
[17:34:34] <Colourless> you need to convince one of use to go change it or some such
[17:34:38] <Fingolfin> I guess I'll have to "rm -rf" the forum dir in htdocs then =)
[17:34:40] <Colourless> s/use/us/
[17:34:47] <wjp_> Fingolfin: right, convincing argument :-)
[17:34:55] * wjp_ resets password
[17:34:56] <Fingolfin> <g>
[17:35:04] <Fingolfin> this time I'll note it down =)
[17:35:13] <Fingolfin> (in an encrypted DB, of course)
[17:37:57] <wjp_> interesting
[17:38:02] <wjp_> there actually is such a counter already :-)
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[18:20:50] --- Topic for #exult is: Exult: an open-source engine for Ultima 7. http://exult.sf.net/
[18:20:50] --- Topic for #exult set by wjp at Tue Jan 6 09:55:17 2004
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[18:29:25] <WishStone> *greets*
[18:29:33] <wjp_> hi WishStone
[18:29:44] <Colourless> hi
[18:30:24] <Colourless> for such a 'mod' friendly engine it's sure taken them a while to release something
[18:30:56] * wjp_ sweeps that comment under the carpet
[18:31:07] <Colourless> ignore that comment, wasn't meant for here :-)
[18:31:09] * WishStone pulls up a chair and watches the GODS of Exult ;D
[18:31:36] <wjp_> be careful you don't put that chair on the carpet; it's a bit unstable with all the... uh.. "stuff" under there :-)
[18:31:51] <WishStone> oops...
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[20:56:38] * WishStone grins
[20:56:45] <WishStone> The internet rocks :P
[21:03:38] <wjp> it rocks to such an extent that you fell off? ;-)
[21:03:57] <WishStone> Yepp :P
[21:04:18] <WishStone> Well, I'm currently in germany again.... Fangorn (my BF) and a friend of his, in Paris, are having crepes....
[21:04:34] <WishStone> And let me "take part" by having put a webcam at the table :P
[21:04:48] <wjp> how cruel :-)
[21:04:59] <WishStone> *is homesick now* :P
[21:06:53] <WishStone> *ROFL* And now Oli, his friend comes walking up to the cam and shows me his nicely stuffed crepe!!! *LOOOOOOOL*
[21:10:21] <wjp> :-)
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[21:13:31] <WishStone> www.astroxys.de/lt.rox/munching.jpg ;]
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[22:09:14] <WishStone> W.I.S.H.S.T.O.N.E.: Wireless Intelligent Soldier Hardwired for Scientific Troubleshooting and Online Nocturnal Exploration
[22:09:18] <WishStone> \:]
[22:09:28] <WishStone> http://www.cyborgname.com/
[22:09:33] --- WishStone is now known as Wishy|Shower
[22:10:39] <wjp> I would be a Wireless Journeying Person :-)
[22:11:51] <wjp> or a Wireless Intelligent Lifeform Limited to Efficient Mathematics and Justified Accurate Nullification
[22:12:07] <wjp> the mathematics bit is quite appropriate :-)
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[22:42:47] <WishStone> *heh* Maths causes systems failures in my brain :P
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[23:03:46] <wjp> time to go; 'night
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