#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 30 Sep 2001 (GMT)

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[12:54:22] <Colourless> hi
[13:12:25] <fingolfin> hi
[13:12:32] <fingolfin> only 18 minutes! woohoo
[13:13:10] <Colourless> not bad :-)
[13:14:44] <fingolfin> he
[13:14:45] <fingolfin> :)
[13:40:46] <Colourless> you know, i've been thinking, we should be using a less hard coded approach to the intro's and endgames. Instead I think we should have some sort of unified system to play all of them. The idea is to have a cinematic description which is then played by the cinematic player.
[13:41:38] <fingolfin> hm
[13:41:45] <fingolfin> it sounds nice
[13:42:10] <fingolfin> the question is: can we abstract this stuff in a fashion that makes it work? We will have to make some sort of script language
[13:43:28] <fingolfin> we need to be able to tell it to play flics, maybe synced with subtitles / music
[13:43:35] <Colourless> yeah I think so. everything would be all time queued.
[13:43:48] <fingolfin> we have to be able to show shapes (with various frames) at certain times, in different spots
[13:43:50] <fingolfin> yeah
[13:44:05] <fingolfin> animted sprite with path following for the butterfly would be nice, too :)
[13:44:32] <fingolfin> i.e. I just tell it the path, and the sprite follows the path, as good as it can (slow machines...)
[13:44:44] <fingolfin> essentially waht it does now but more generalized
[13:44:51] <fingolfin> hm
[13:44:58] <Colourless> yeah
[13:45:08] <fingolfin> and the guardian speech would gain by the use scripting, too
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[13:45:17] <fingolfin> though there we need to steer various things at once
[13:45:43] <fingolfin> I haven't looked at any of the endings yet (the code I mean)
[13:46:12] <fingolfin> maybe we should first try to see what cases we need to cover, and come up with a nice design? :)
[13:46:19] <Colourless> there are a few ways to do things. you can either specify the time that a shape would last on the screen, or you could use objects which you can change or delete at certain times
[13:47:04] <Colourless> working out a design first would be a very good idea :)
[13:47:08] <fingolfin> =)
[13:47:17] <fingolfin> something like
[13:47:27] <fingolfin> PutBackGround <shape> <frame>
[13:47:45] <fingolfin> DisplayText 50 124 "with help by the exult team"
[13:47:53] <fingolfin> PlayMus <...>
[13:48:01] <fingolfin> Wait 1000
[13:48:03] <fingolfin> etc.
[13:48:28] <fingolfin> but maybe also with some powerful constructs...
[13:48:46] <Colourless> kind of. It would be better, IMO, to strictly use frame based timing so you would have something like this:
[13:48:46] <fingolfin> path = { 0,0 12,20 30,10 ... }
[13:48:50] <Colourless> frame 0
[13:48:58] <Colourless> PutBackGround <shape> <frame>
[13:49:05] <fingolfin> MoveSpriteAlongPath SpriteID path time
[13:49:11] <Colourless> DisplayText 50 124 "with help by the exult team"
[13:49:12] <fingolfin> hm
[13:49:13] <Colourless> PlayMus <...>
[13:49:21] <Colourless> frame 50
[13:49:23] <fingolfin> you mean time frame here I guess ? :)
[13:49:23] <Colourless> dosomething here
[13:49:45] <fingolfin> uhm... how would you define a "frame" here?
[13:50:17] <Colourless> a frame is just an amount of time that is counted from when the sequence starts.
[13:50:19] <fingolfin> either you define a frame as being a specific time -> then you gain not much, you can use millisecs instead
[13:50:35] <Colourless> yeah, millisecs can be used
[13:50:56] <fingolfin> why introduce arbitrary frames when millisecs are much easier to understand? :)
[13:51:11] <Colourless> just i dislike using waits because they can cause lack of sync if not done correctly
[13:51:16] <fingolfin> ah
[13:51:31] <fingolfin> well, what I dislike about "Time 0", "Time 100"
[13:51:37] <fingolfin> is that it is easy to mess it up
[13:51:46] <fingolfin> ie. Time 0 Time 100 Time 50
[13:52:00] <fingolfin> that is why I wanted to suggest relative times instead of absoultes
[13:52:03] <Colourless> yeah, well we could just do waits properly then :)
[13:52:05] <fingolfin> absolute even
[13:52:10] <fingolfin> btw
[13:52:16] <fingolfin> I didn't mean "wait" either
[13:52:33] <Colourless> wait that amount of seconds from the previous wait, not from when the wait was called
[13:52:35] <fingolfin> more like: all following actions should started at time offset current+delay
[13:52:40] <Colourless> if that makes sence
[13:52:42] <fingolfin> yeah
[13:52:43] <Colourless> sense
[13:52:57] <fingolfin> the idea would be that I can issues multiple things
[13:53:10] <fingolfin> like
[13:53:33] <fingolfin> AnimateSpriteAlongPath ButterFly path <duration=10000>
[13:53:41] <fingolfin> TimeOffset:2000
[13:53:56] <fingolfin> AnimateSpriteAlongPath Buttefly2 path2 <duration=8000>
[13:54:17] <fingolfin> this is not necessarily syntax I want to suggest, just an attempt to convey what i mean :)
[13:54:25] <Colourless> yeah I understand
[13:54:38] <fingolfin> this way, you have two butterflies, one starting 2 secs later, but both end at the same time
[13:55:09] <Colourless> yeah that's good
[13:55:11] <fingolfin> of course, absolute time markers have also advantages...
[13:59:49] <Colourless> we have to work out exactly what sort of commands we need, and some syntax rules
[14:03:57] <fingolfin> yeah
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[16:06:05] <wjp> hi
[16:06:10] <Colourless> hi
[16:06:42] <fingolfin> hi
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[20:23:35] * wjp was actually back from dinner quite a while already
[20:23:43] <wjp> (forgot to change nick back :-) )
[20:23:43] <Colourless> hehe
[20:26:07] <Fingolfin> hm
[20:26:11] <Fingolfin> I still had no dinner
[20:26:14] <Fingolfin> I feel hingry..
[20:26:17] <Fingolfin> hungry even
[20:26:29] <Fingolfin> but at least I finished this god damn darn project!!! YEAH, FREE!!!
[20:26:38] <Fingolfin> well, that is, I finished this section of it... erhm
[20:26:50] * wjp still has to do algebra homework for tomorrow :/
[20:32:47] <Fingolfin> he
[20:32:50] <Fingolfin> hmmmm
[20:33:08] <Fingolfin> this guy did a nice job: http://wrench.et.ic.ac.uk/adrian/software/oroborosx/
[20:33:25] <Fingolfin> but somehow, he "overlooked" the GPL plate on oroborus... source is missing, and any notice regarding the GPL...
[20:33:55] <Fingolfin> hm, he says source will be up soon
[20:33:58] <wjp> yeah, he does
[20:34:02] <Fingolfin> he has been saying this since his first release
[20:34:06] <wjp> as soon as he's written some 'blurb' ?
[20:34:15] <Fingolfin> no idea :)
[20:34:53] <wjp> I don't think the GPL allows for delays for writing 'blurbs', actually :-)
[20:35:01] <Colourless> no it doesn't
[20:35:13] <Colourless> the source must be avaliable to anyone who wants it
[20:35:18] <Fingolfin> I just emailed him, commending him on his work, and suggestion he should a) put up the source, b) include the GPL in his binary distro, and c) include either the source or an URL to it wiht his binary distro... I do not like to behave like a bloody damn lawyr, but I think I did it in a friendly fashion
[20:36:09] <Fingolfin> I assume he is just one of those guys who are ashamed of their "icky" code and don't want to show other people :)
[20:36:29] <Fingolfin> i.e. somebody who never worked for a big company and never saw the source of e.g. Netscape :)
[20:36:35] <wjp> :-)
[20:36:45] <Colourless> you could ask for his code and if he doesn't give it tell FSF :-)
[20:37:32] <wjp> "If you don't give me your code, my big brother FSF will beat you up!" ;-)
[20:38:16] <Fingolfin> I asked for his code, and said "I am sure it was just an oversight". I did not make any threats whatever, that is a bad way to approach people
[20:38:39] <Fingolfin> if he outrightly refuses, I will tell him I will tell the FSF; if he still refuses; I'll do; but I prefer *not* to do this
[20:39:00] <Fingolfin> if he says: yeah I want to, but I need to clean it up, I'll tell him: just put it up, you can clean it later :)
[20:39:15] <Fingolfin> hey he could make a SourceForge project, I know several people who would love to help him :)
[20:39:31] <wjp> better idea: tell /. :-)
[20:39:43] <Colourless> hehe
[20:39:58] <Colourless> you want his project removed from the internet do you?
[20:45:58] <Fingolfin> wjp wants :)
[20:45:59] <Fingolfin> argh
[20:46:12] <Fingolfin> I am sick about dalis in #sdl, arguing against libtool w/o knowing what he really talks about
[20:46:20] <Fingolfin> and his fundamental "solutions" to everything
[20:46:32] <Colourless> such as?
[20:46:57] <Colourless> question, why are you arguing about libtool in #sdl ? :-)
[20:50:24] <Fingolfin> dalias like some other guys there, thinks autoconf/automake/libtool are from hell
[20:50:31] <Fingolfin> sure those have bad points, but they *work*
[20:50:33] <Fingolfin> and on a lot of systems
[20:50:48] <Fingolfin> dalias spills out a lot of vaport, but has nothgin working to show, yet continues to whine
[20:51:38] <wjp> s/vaport/vapor/ ?
[20:52:29] <Fingolfin> vapor, yeah :)
[20:52:30] <Fingolfin> argh
[20:52:40] <Fingolfin> I just stop it now, I am sick of this discussion over and over again
[20:52:48] <Colourless> everyone like vaporware. it's exactly what you want :)
[20:53:16] <Fingolfin> he
[20:53:40] <Fingolfin> I like people trying new approaches; I found his idea/suggestion for an automake-replacment that builds a single flat makefile interesting
[20:53:56] <wjp> that sounds familiar :-)
[20:54:06] <wjp> didn't we briefly talk about that last week?
[20:54:08] <Colourless> yeah, somehow it does :)
[20:54:11] <Fingolfin> but he is, IMHO,, extremly arrogant in pretending he knows it all better than some people who spent years creating & maintiangin autoconf/automake/libtool
[20:54:17] <Fingolfin> wjp: aye :)
[20:54:24] <Fingolfin> but then he only wanted to ditch automake
[20:54:35] <Fingolfin> by now, he read a short abstract on libtool, and has decided it is crap, too
[20:54:45] <Fingolfin> I think next week, he will include autoconf, too
[20:54:56] <Colourless> how about gcc :)
[20:55:02] <Fingolfin> two weeks later, it'll be "only gcc and gnu make users are sensible people, ignore the rest"
[20:55:14] <Fingolfin> Colourless: he already thinks that everybody sane should have gcc
[20:55:36] <Fingolfin> Colourless: and he believes every sane systems can build shared libs using "gcc -shared" -LOL
[21:03:36] <wjp> oh, he doesn't like libraries either
[21:03:43] <Colourless> errr
[21:03:58] <Colourless> why not?
[21:04:10] <Fingolfin> argh, my mom just called me, I need to fetch her, she caused a car accident
[21:04:12] <Fingolfin> grrr
[21:04:16] <wjp> :/
[21:04:19] --- Fingolfin is now known as Fingolfin|away
[21:04:31] <wjp> she's ok I hope?
[21:04:52] <Fingolfin|away> seems so
[21:05:00] <Fingolfin|away> she forgot her papers at home, though
[21:05:12] <Colourless> that's not good
[21:05:17] <Fingolfin|away> no
[21:05:30] <Fingolfin|away> ok, I quit here now, and I am away monday/tuesday, but see ya on wednesday!
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[21:07:46] <wjp> I should go too
[21:07:47] <wjp> bye
[21:07:50] <Colourless> cya
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[21:09:57] <Colourless> goodbye exultbot
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