#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 3 Jan 2005 (GMT)

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[06:20:29] <Baastuul> Goats.
[06:25:47] <shazza> @__@
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[06:27:03] <animositas> Hey
[06:27:06] <animositas> I need some help
[06:27:12] <shazza> yep?
[06:27:20] <animositas> Music player: Internal cheapass forked midi player
[06:27:20] <animositas> Black Gate : found
[06:27:20] <animositas> exult_bg.flx : found
[06:27:20] <animositas> Serpent Isle : found
[06:27:21] <animositas> exult_si.flx : found
[06:27:22] <animositas> Starting forked player failed
[06:27:23] <animositas> Broken pipe
[06:27:28] <animositas> Any idea how to fix this?
[06:27:40] <shazza> nope i am not so good with that
[06:27:44] <shazza> hopefully someone else will know :-)
[06:27:44] <shazza> sorry
[06:27:58] <animositas> gr
[06:28:02] <Baastuul> animositas, just idle in the channel for a bit
[06:28:07] <Baastuul> Somebody is bound to answer your question
[06:28:11] <Baastuul> Usually as soon as you leave heh
[06:28:29] <animositas> There's somethiing about it in the logs of this channel, but it's tough to read (damn IRC =) )
[06:28:32] <animositas> Yeah thats true
[06:28:55] <shazza> heh
[06:29:03] <Baastuul> I hate dial-up
[06:29:08] <Baastuul> Downloading some TrendMicro stuff
[06:29:12] <Baastuul> It's taking forever
[06:29:12] <shazza> i love my broadband
[06:29:15] <Baastuul> And I wanna go to bed already :p
[06:29:32] * Baastuul kills shazza by choking him with elephant seal blubber
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[06:29:54] <shazza> lol
[06:30:03] <shazza> so much for the idle idea
[06:30:08] <shazza> silly animositas
[06:30:09] <Baastuul> heh yeah
[06:30:17] <Baastuul> i'd laugh if somebody actually answered his question right now
[06:30:45] <shazza> lol
[06:30:45] <Baastuul> hehe why'd you VERSION me? :D
[06:30:54] <shazza> i was wondering if you had mirc
[06:30:57] <shazza> :\
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[06:31:01] <animositas> heh
[06:31:01] <shazza> animositas doesn't
[06:31:03] <shazza> oh here he is
[06:31:04] <animositas> yay
[06:31:04] <Baastuul> oh yeah
[06:31:06] <Baastuul> i have mirc 6.16
[06:31:11] <animositas> No mirc for me
[06:31:16] <animositas> Hooray for unix
[06:31:25] <animositas> NEway I got it to work by disabling MIDI for now
[06:31:36] <Baastuul> yey~
[06:31:41] <Baastuul> i wonder when the next exult update will come along
[06:31:50] <shazza> probably 3d
[06:31:50] <Baastuul> which irc client do you use, anim?
[06:31:58] <shazza> (05:28:07p) [animositas VERSION reply]: sirc 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.4, a perl client
[06:32:07] <Baastuul> ogmgomg
[06:32:15] <Baastuul> damn, i wish this wasn't the last night of my christmas break
[06:32:25] <Baastuul> i don't feel like getting back into my school routine again
[06:32:27] <animositas> Hehe
[06:32:28] <animositas> Me too
[06:32:34] <animositas> I'm gonna be a hermit for a semester
[06:32:42] <Baastuul> hehe
[06:32:47] <Baastuul> i'm a hermit whenever i'm on break
[06:32:51] <Baastuul> i socialize pretty much at school
[06:33:01] * animositas is a physics grad student
[06:33:05] <animositas> We don't know what 'social' is
[06:33:06] <Baastuul> i rarely talk with anybody at my church. for me it's a 2 hour get in and out session :p
[06:33:15] <Baastuul> haha
[06:33:22] <Baastuul> i have physics first period of the day
[06:33:27] <Baastuul> i hate it :p
[06:33:36] <animositas> But physics is FUN =)
[06:33:55] <animositas> Did any of you guys work on this Exult thing?
[06:33:57] <Baastuul> well
[06:34:15] <shazza> i am only 15
[06:34:22] <shazza> and i first played ultima 7 when i was 4 or 5
[06:34:25] <shazza> haha
[06:34:27] <animositas> Jeez
[06:34:30] <animositas> Make me feel old
[06:34:31] <Baastuul> i get tired of always having to answer those ridiculous "Bob goes on a slide down a hill at an angle of 35 degrees with an initial velocity of 5 m/s, what is his displacement" type questions
[06:34:47] <Baastuul> i'm 18
[06:34:49] <animositas> I teach those classes =)
[06:34:56] <Baastuul> been playing it since uh... i was 8 or 9
[06:35:10] <Baastuul> :o
[06:35:12] <Baastuul> h8
[06:35:14] <Baastuul> hehe
[06:35:22] <Baastuul> Shazza, I didn't know you were so young :O
[06:35:23] <animositas> Is the port for U8 out yet?
[06:35:31] <Baastuul> Anim; Which college do you go to?
[06:35:37] <animositas> UF
[06:35:50] <Baastuul> University of... Florida?
[06:36:19] <animositas> Yup
[06:36:22] <shazza> i am from australia :O
[06:36:34] <Baastuul> hehe
[06:36:41] <Baastuul> animositas, we are on total opposite ends of the nation
[06:36:44] * Baastuul is in washington
[06:36:54] <animositas> Seattle?
[06:37:01] <Baastuul> Spokane area
[06:37:06] <animositas> Nice place
[06:37:10] <Darke> animositas: There is no u8 port. The answer to the question you're probably about to ask is: http://pentagram.sf.net/ *grin*
[06:37:12] <Baastuul> yeah it isn't bad
[06:37:18] <animositas> Yup thats what I meant
[06:37:23] <animositas> Is it functional?
[06:37:48] <Darke> IIRC, it's been played from start to finish. BUt there's still lots of stuff missing.
[06:38:02] <Baastuul> 48%...
[06:38:48] <animositas> [nods]
[06:38:54] <animositas> I always liked U8 best
[06:39:05] <Baastuul> Ultima 8 was the first one I played
[06:39:07] <Baastuul> I like U7 more though
[06:39:08] <animositas> Ditto
[06:40:20] <animositas> Man they did a nice job on this thing
[06:47:13] <Baastuul> LIES
[06:47:15] <Baastuul> UTTER LIES
[06:47:17] <Baastuul> RRRARRGH!
[06:47:26] <Baastuul> I mean, uh, yes, indeed.
[06:48:07] <Baastuul> 79%
[06:49:53] <animositas> ?
[06:50:03] <Baastuul> 86%~!
[06:50:07] <animositas> You have beef with it?
[06:50:07] <Baastuul> My TrendMicro thing
[06:50:10] <animositas> oh
[06:50:11] <animositas> whats that
[06:50:21] <Baastuul> http://www.trendmicro.com/
[06:50:26] <Baastuul> I'm just loading their free online scanner to do a routine check
[06:50:42] <Baastuul> it takes forever over dial-up when you have to load all the software again
[06:51:03] <animositas> ohh
[06:51:03] <animositas> ok
[06:51:32] * Baastuul lives in the land without broadband
[06:51:34] <Baastuul> Broadbandlessland
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[08:35:23] <servus> Trying to speed up Exult3D
[08:40:34] <sbx> hi
[08:40:51] <sbx> servus: any luck?
[08:59:18] <Baastuul> I can't sleep :/
[08:59:21] <Baastuul> but at least the virus scan is done
[08:59:23] <Baastuul> i'm going to bed now
[08:59:25] <Baastuul> well
[08:59:26] <Baastuul> again
[08:59:28] <Baastuul> GUTE NACHT
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[09:01:55] <servus> sbx, not yet. Exult is so complex. I'm pretty sure it's a timer issue.
[09:09:14] <Colourless> in exult lots of stuff runs on millisecond timers so it is a big pain trying to change anything
[09:18:59] <servus> i've noticed that
[09:19:28] <servus> i got fed up and halted development for a while
[09:32:26] <sbx> :\
[10:08:33] <servus> hey, if any of the engine developers wanna help... :P
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[10:15:55] <aitison> hiya, does anyone know if I can "convert" to fov in the middle of regular BG game in u7?
[10:16:50] <aitison> in otherwords I started my u7 with exult witout addons and now that I have the addon I can't go to isle of fire
[10:17:05] <sbx> No you cant
[10:17:40] <sbx> you have to start a new game in exult
[10:17:56] <aitison> dang
[10:18:14] <aitison> Does fov include anything else other than isle of fire?
[10:20:03] <sbx> Just the rewards you get from it, and an earthquake at the start of the game.
[10:20:17] <sbx> and a ship, unless you get that without fov too
[10:21:58] <aitison> ok, I guess I can live without them :)
[10:22:02] <aitison> Thanks for your help
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[10:24:06] <servus> How about putting all the graphics stuff in its very own thread?
[10:27:48] <sbx> Hmm... I would have recommended he install FOV.
[10:36:28] <servus> Colourless, what do you think is the best option?
[10:39:07] <Colourless> what do you mean?
[10:39:36] <servus> For making the graphics fast enough to add things like 3D models? Trying to disentangle all the timer stuff from the graphics, or trying to encapsulate the graphics in their own thread?
[10:42:24] <Colourless> i wouldn't try, not at the moment
[10:43:16] <servus> What would you recommend, then?
[10:43:38] <Colourless> fix the timer stuff in general :-)
[10:43:59] <Colourless> multithreading will not really fix anything
[10:47:35] <servus> Why not? You mean your timers are handled with spinlocks instead of thread sleeping?
[10:48:46] <Colourless> everything gets shoved into the timer queue and we wait till the next thing needs to run
[10:49:17] <Colourless> handle input events as they occur and render when it's appropriate
[10:51:09] <servus> Well GUI rendering code needn't be changed -- just terrain rendering
[10:51:23] <servus> Why should that need to be instant-response?
[10:52:59] <Colourless> i'm guessing you want to put in smooth scrolling and interpolation
[10:53:51] <Colourless> as such you'll need to take snapshots of the world at regular intervals to interpolate between
[10:54:21] <Colourless> if there is no regular timing in the timer queue your interpolation will be very bad...
[10:54:49] <Colourless> the number 1 problem exult does is when doing regular events it most often does nexttime = currenttime + someconstant
[10:57:43] <servus> I have smooth scrolling, kinda
[10:57:56] <servus> I mean, the graphics are smooth except for the artificial slow-ness of the entire engine
[10:58:36] <Colourless> what do you mean artificial slowness
[10:58:53] <servus> Every time the engine loops, you have some delays built in...
[10:59:19] <Colourless> you could probably get rid of them
[10:59:29] <Colourless> if you find where they are
[11:00:04] <servus> I've seen a few, but it's like a forest :-)
[11:04:33] <servus> That's why I figured if all the main engine's slowness was done by thread sleeping, I would have plenty of processing power left over for my very own graphics thread that ran at its own pace.
[11:20:17] <servus> Any more ideas, Mr. Original Engine Coder? :-)
[11:21:13] <Colourless> Dr Code was the original engine coder :-)
[11:21:52] <servus> Engine Coder, not "THE" Engine Coder. :-p
[11:40:18] <servus> So.. I think I'll try the thread idea first unless you have very strong objections :-)
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[14:30:32] <servus> Alright. Good. I'm going to try to get a 3D tree in Exult today. For now -- sleep!
[14:33:17] <servus> As a minor note, I'm abandoning Quake MD2's because I've decided that I don't need "animateable" models at all. Frames don't always make sense as a series of motions within one object. Observe trees that are one shape with many frames being completely different models. The models will simply be a list of faces/vertexes/UVWs/normals, and the name of a texture map. This, I think, is the best solution, and it should let models load e
[14:33:17] <servus> xtremely quickly. I'll make a file format, Exult model texture manager, Exult model manager, and 3D Studio Max export plugin (which should be extremely simplified) soon, hopefully within the next couple days. Each model will be a static frame.
[14:34:36] <servus> There will be two new directories. The models will have the name ##SHAPEID##_##FRAMEID##.mdl, and the textures will either have arbitrary names, or might just be named ##SHAPEID##.tga, or whatever. All of this is still a little in the air.
[14:35:05] <servus> This should allow for a pretty "seamless" integration of new game content, without modification of game code once it is in place.
[14:36:43] <servus> Please post your thoughts, and I hope to have a new demo soon.
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[21:07:01] <servus> Which shapes should I 3D-ize first...
[21:07:27] <servus> Got a workable file format for the 3D models, a working file exporter, and a working file importer.
[21:10:47] <servus> On the "What Happens Next?" page for Exult, it says "rewrite of the midi & graphics system to make it easier to manage". What's that mean?
[21:11:41] <Colourless> it means i gut the renderer and replace it with code that doesn't make your head doesn't explode when you try to figure out wtf it is trying to do
[21:12:13] <servus> So that means it'll break my small portion probably? :-)
[21:12:33] <Colourless> bascially get rid of the entire imagewin dir and replace it with something a little more managable
[21:12:42] <servus> On a brighter note, I want to actually see this tree I just modelled in Exult, within the next few hours.
[21:12:48] <Colourless> yes, i will break whatever you've done :-)
[21:13:08] <servus> That's OK, I only wrote like 2 lines.
[21:13:20] <servus> I stole the rest from Tetris.
[21:13:52] <servus> Any comments on the path I'm taking for 3D models?
[21:14:33] <Colourless> sure, but do you want to hear it :-)
[21:15:07] <servus> Sure, all Open Source people are "mean", right? :->
[21:16:07] <Colourless> your custom file format will pretty much mean you'll only be able to use 3DS Max with your converter, and nothing else
[21:16:37] <servus> The file format is "custom" because it's so simple. You could make a command-line converter for any file format in a snap.
[21:16:53] <Colourless> but you need to create a converter
[21:17:01] <servus> Sure, but what other option is there?
[21:17:23] <Colourless> you were using MD2. why chahge?
[21:17:27] <Colourless> *change
[21:17:35] <servus> Remember how many frames are going to be loaded per shape-cache. It needs to be fast. Something like a dxf or md2 has lots of extra features that I don't need.
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[21:18:03] <servus> I don't need skeletons, multiple frames, animation, translations... just vertices and face indices.
[21:18:08] <Colourless> if using opengl, then using the MD2 glprog is really quick
[21:18:18] <Colourless> strips and fans all the way
[21:19:09] <servus> Harumm. How many people are really going to be modelling stuff, though?
[21:19:39] <Colourless> not many.. but even less if you restrict yourself to a single program. But, that's my opinion. You asked for it :-)
[21:20:57] <Colourless> do what you want
[21:22:56] <servus> I just forgot everything I know about the Exult source code.
[21:23:25] <servus> Well it doesn't matter. The file format is abstract and can be whatever and if it changes, just the file opener needs to be changed, no big deal.
[21:25:34] <servus> How do I get into map-editting mode again? I want to know the shape IDs for some objects.
[21:25:51] <Colourless> ctrl-alt-m ?
[21:26:18] <servus> I wish the shape browser worked [for me]
[21:26:36] <Colourless> what's wrong with it?
[21:28:14] <servus> Never shows any flex files, but double-clicking did something I can use :>
[21:28:26] <servus> I will no proceed to replace Shape 306 frame 5!
[21:29:19] <servus> Shapes have a hard absolute of 8 frames?
[21:30:05] <wjp> no
[21:30:14] <Colourless> 31 frames
[21:30:16] <wjp> there are many shapes with more than 8 frames
[21:30:23] <Colourless> avatar has 31
[21:30:26] <Colourless> 32
[21:31:27] <servus> Alright. I just need to know how many digits are possible :-p
[21:31:48] <Colourless> 64 frames if you count flipping
[21:32:06] <servus> I don't *think* I'll count flipping. We'll see.
[21:33:05] <servus> http://linux.ucla.edu/~phaethon/q3a/formats/md2-schoenblum.html all this cruft is why I wanted to avoid MD2.
[21:34:47] <Colourless> only 'bad' think about MD2 are the max limits and the really terrible accuracy of the verts :-)
[21:35:03] <Colourless> oh... and the awful accuracy of the vertex normals
[21:35:09] <servus> What abuot all the junk I don't need, too? :-)
[21:35:43] <Colourless> not 'that' much junk... some good stuff for software renderers :-)
[21:38:15] <servus> http://sourcepost.sytes.net/sourcepost/sourceview.aspx?source_id=20030 what I'm working with right now.
[21:38:32] <servus> I dunno, I'm just concerned about caching speed.
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