#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 4 Jan 2003 (GMT)

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[05:36:11] <matto> EXULTBOT!
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[08:27:28] * Darke waves at the bouncing Pokemon.
[08:27:40] <Darke> Sorry. *wink*
[08:29:48] <Piku> hi there
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[08:50:34] <ShadwChsr> hey :)
[08:50:52] <ShadwChsr> exult just froze on my machine.. some sort of endless loop, since windows things its still running
[08:50:57] <ShadwChsr> 1.0
[08:51:10] <ShadwChsr> how can I do a dump of whats going on for debugging?
[08:51:48] <Darke> stdout.txt and stderr.txt should have a record of what last happened.
[08:52:00] * Darke thinks that's their names anyway. He uses linux. *grin*
[08:52:08] <ShadwChsr> is_installed: '.\static\sispeech.spc' : no
[08:52:15] <ShadwChsr> Digital SFX's file specified: jmsfx.flx... but file not found
[08:52:24] <ShadwChsr> second one is the only line in stderr
[08:52:28] <ShadwChsr> first one is last line in stdout
[08:52:29] <Darke> Where has it frozen anyway?
[08:52:48] <ShadwChsr> i was typing in my name to start a new game of ultima 7 :)
[08:53:14] <ShadwChsr> then the cursor disappeared and everything stopped responding to input, but it still seemed to render and process windows' messages
[08:53:18] <Darke> Erm. Weird.
[08:53:35] <ShadwChsr> Oh wait
[08:53:37] <ShadwChsr> its still doing it
[08:53:46] <ShadwChsr> it happens every time i start a new game, right when it starts
[08:54:00] <ShadwChsr> no cursor at all
[08:54:10] <ShadwChsr> the cursor appeared at the iolo scene though
[08:54:22] <ShadwChsr> it still was buggy just /less/ buggy, since it responded to keyboard input this time
[08:55:28] <Darke> Hrm. The gamedat dir and so on is created ok? And there isn't 'rubbish' in it? *grin*
[08:59:20] <ShadwChsr> not sure, im not too worried though ;)
[08:59:27] <ShadwChsr> also some bugs with the screen resolutions
[08:59:54] <ShadwChsr> at some modes it interlaces, and when i switch to 2x point, it goes non-interlaced, but i can see the exact same region of map!
[09:00:01] <ShadwChsr> so its not zooming in 2x as it should
[09:00:21] <matto> I don't know what the problem is
[09:00:28] <ShadwChsr> when I go to fullscreen mode and alt-tab out, it freezes and stops responding to input
[09:00:37] <matto> but I bet it has something to do with Microsoft... they are responsible for all problems if you trace things back far enough :)
[09:00:40] <ShadwChsr> that one appears to be a bug in your windows code
[09:00:49] <matto> hehe sorry, I know I am not helping
[09:02:11] <Darke> What version of exult are you using?
[09:02:17] <Darke> 1.0? 1.1? cvs?
[09:02:18] <ShadwChsr> 1.0
[09:03:26] <ShadwChsr> u7+forge
[09:04:18] <ShadwChsr> data2 = 0
[09:04:18] <ShadwChsr> Game paused
[09:04:25] * Darke checks to see if he's got a v1.0 compiled. v1.1.0 he's got.
[09:04:42] <ShadwChsr> "game paused" when i Alt-Tabbed, then didn't "unpause" when i clicked on the icon, window didnt restore, etc - bug in message loop ;)
[09:05:08] * Darke ahhs.
[09:06:20] <Darke> Hmm... 1.1.0 works ok on linux. Might be a windows problem or a 1.0 problem. Compiling now.
[09:07:42] <ShadwChsr> which file has the windows code?
[09:07:48] <ShadwChsr> ie/ api
[09:09:33] <Darke> None really. We rely on SDL to do most of the platform specific stuff.
[09:10:20] <ShadwChsr> sdl generates the window?
[09:10:27] <Darke> Yep.
[09:10:36] <ShadwChsr> ugh theres your bug ;)
[09:11:52] <Darke> Erm... why? Works perfectly under linux, amiga, alpha (last time it was compiled), and Zaraus. Like matto said, sounds like a Windows problem. *grin*
[09:12:35] <ShadwChsr> 10 billion working applications say your wrong ;-)
[09:12:58] <ShadwChsr> Exult is the only app on my PC that can't show a window ;-)
[09:13:49] <ShadwChsr> It seems like they forgot the magic line of code: DefWindowProc(..); :P
[09:14:09] <Darke> You obviously have a different definition of 'working' to me then. I've not met a single 'working' application more complex then a HelloWorld program in my life, and don't expect to ever encounter one.
[09:14:58] <matto> I've used exult fine in windows
[09:15:12] <ShadwChsr> press alt-tab ;-)
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[09:15:33] * Darke nods as has he. Was playing it at work before christmas and alt-tabbed regularly.
[09:15:40] <ShadwChsr> fullscreen?
[09:15:45] <Darke> Yup.
[09:16:04] <matto> the fullscreen stuff is built into SDL
[09:16:10] <Darke> Wouldn't do so on anything else with a pathetically small 17". *grin*
[09:16:51] <matto> it's possible that SDL has some bugs and/or missing implementation for your particular video drivers... but that's not exult's fault if it does
[09:16:51] <ShadwChsr> i can alt-tab out (and back in) but clicking on the taskbar doesn't work
[09:17:24] <ShadwChsr> Exult uses sdl ;-)
[09:17:35] <matto> I myself have fixed SDL's directX yuv code
[09:17:54] <ShadwChsr> i thought SDL didnt use directx?
[09:18:06] <matto> it does
[09:18:31] <matto> exult uses SDL, but any problems relating to alt-tabbing in fullscreen mode must be an SDL problem, not an exult problem
[09:18:59] <matto> if you are suggesting someone adds native directX support to exult, then you probably are overestimating windows' importance to the exult developers
[09:19:20] <ShadwChsr> why would I suggest that?
[09:19:20] <matto> oh whoops, sorry Kirben :)
[09:19:36] <matto> I can't think of any other reason you said "Exult uses sdl"
[09:19:54] <matto> anyway.. I'm going to bed
[09:20:08] <ShadwChsr> When a Microsoft app crashes, do you say "That's not Microsoft's fault, because windows runs on x86"?
[09:20:19] <ShadwChsr> :)
[09:20:57] <ShadwChsr> but anyhow they're minor issues <shrug>
[09:22:17] <Darke> No, you say somewhere in the mass of code, libraries, drivers, applications. Try and eliminate the application itself then drill down to the problem. Which usually ends up being OS or driver related. Doing else is stupid. *grin*
[09:22:44] <matto> I'm not just making assumptions, like I said, I've worked with the SDL source code and written SDL apps
[09:22:50] <Darke> That's the reason I tested 1.1, and am currently compiling 1.0. *grin*
[09:24:36] <matto> I'm not saying it couldn't be an exult problem, but from my experience, SDL apps do not create windows or handle platform-specific events like alt-tab
[09:24:58] <matto> SDL takes care of that ...
[09:25:17] <matto> g'night
[09:26:40] <Darke> Night!
[09:30:19] <ShadwChsr> ever heard of MFC darke?
[09:30:51] <ShadwChsr> probably in nightmares/rants/suicide notes?
[09:31:05] <Darke> It's the evil that lies in the heart of all windows programs and I *despise* coding in it. *grin*
[09:31:32] <ShadwChsr> well its not in all windows apps, its just a dumb class library that tries to make the API "object oriented"
[09:31:35] <ShadwChsr> and I hate it too :P
[09:31:47] <ShadwChsr> It looks like it will FINALLY be dead sometime this year :)
[09:31:50] <ShadwChsr> thank GOD
[09:32:05] <ShadwChsr> Visual Studio 2003 FINALLY has a visual form designer for C++
[09:32:24] <ShadwChsr> I cant believe it took them over a decade to do that ;P
[09:33:31] <ShadwChsr> Your not a windows coder but what would you do (switching platforms - not an option ;) I have the game working, using some simple API calls, but that's just one window
[09:33:39] <ShadwChsr> I want to build the mapeditor now
[09:34:24] <ShadwChsr> A) Do the evil traditional route and add all the game source files to an MFC app, and use MFC to do the complex UI windowing code, and the game object hierarchy to do the rendering
[09:34:43] <ShadwChsr> B) Same as above, but code it all in API instead of MFC, which means trillions of lines of code, but at least less evil code
[09:34:55] <ShadwChsr> C) Wait for the next version of visual studio ;P
[09:36:15] <ShadwChsr> D) Rewrite the map editor using 100% new code, a new renderer, new engine, specifically for the map editor in a less nasty windows dev environment
[09:36:20] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[09:36:48] <ShadwChsr> I want to learn MFC to help with job hunting but its just so... evil
[09:36:49] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[09:37:47] <Darke> Hmm... I need more specifics as to your exult+windows problem. I repeated what you did with bg+fov under winxppro with a gf2 card and stock nvidia drivers using exult1.0 straight from the download page and alt-tabbing had no ill effects.
[09:38:43] <Darke> Is designing the game system to allow you to imbed the map editor *inside* it an option? *grin*
[09:38:55] <ShadwChsr> alt tab out, but click on the taskbar to re-activate it
[09:39:03] <ShadwChsr> alt-tabbing twice works, but using the taskbar to restore it doesnt
[09:40:18] <ShadwChsr> I sorta designed it that way - It's all in a huge object hierarchy - so what I was currently doing was building an MFC app, creating an instance of the game object and passing it the handle of the window, so it could attach itself to the proper portion of the map editor window
[09:40:56] <ShadwChsr> The game system is still compiled directly with the map editor using the sources though - from what I can tell, thats what other games do - thats why their map editors are the same size as the game binaries ;-)
[09:41:14] <ShadwChsr> But I still need to put up with MFC :P
[09:42:01] <ShadwChsr> I would like to drop it all and go to C# because it has much cleaner code than MFC, but I need the experience with C++ or I'll be a coder outcast my entire life ;)
[09:42:33] <ShadwChsr> and no one is going to download 20 megs of .NET framework, so thats not an option until two OSes down the road when everyone has it built in as part of the OS anyhow ;-)
[09:42:33] <Darke> No input freeze what-so-ever doing that. But the screen doesn't get repainted. You need to hit a key or move the mouse to get it to repaint all/some of the window. Looks like it might be a problem with SDL, since we don't have control over that I don't think.
[09:42:44] <ShadwChsr> Yeah I had the repaint problem too
[09:42:49] <ShadwChsr> What windows version?
[09:43:00] <Darke> WinXP Pro.
[09:43:01] <ShadwChsr> I'm running XP but I seem to remember having the same problem in 2000
[09:43:21] <ShadwChsr> what fullscreen settings are you using?
[09:43:23] * Darke was running it in 2000 at work, and never encountered the problem.
[09:43:31] <ShadwChsr> set it to 640x480 2x point
[09:43:32] <Darke> 320x200x2xSAI
[09:44:06] <ShadwChsr> 320x200x2x?? wouldn't that make the resolution effectively 160x100? :)
[09:44:13] <Darke> I wonder what version of sdl 1.0 it's compiled/shipped with.
[09:44:34] <ShadwChsr> the latest, I already checked ;P
[09:44:41] <Darke> No, a 320x200 window with 2xSAI scaling. Which results in a 640x400 window. *grin*
[09:44:45] <ShadwChsr> Thought of tossing in a new DLL to see if that would work, no luck
[09:45:03] <ShadwChsr> darke: weird... so the resolution is actually the original, not the screen res?
[09:45:41] <ShadwChsr> I was wondering why my monitor was having a fit when it was in "640x480" mode ;P
[09:45:57] <Darke> Yes, afaik.
[09:46:34] <Darke> 400x300x2 results in a 800x600 window. At least on my desktop anyway. *grin*
[09:48:07] * Darke wonders if exult is just statically linked the the .dll. Shouldn't be though.
[09:48:09] <ShadwChsr> now it works ;P weird
[09:48:20] <ShadwChsr> the alt-tab thing must be a bug with certain resolutions
[09:48:38] <ShadwChsr> and how can you stand playing in 2xSAI? It just looks like a blurred mess here ;-)
[09:48:59] <ShadwChsr> not to mention it has the occasional stray pixel render problem
[09:50:23] <Darke> Erm... uhh... it looks quite good on a 21" set to 1600x1200 with an 800x600 window in one corner! *grin*
[09:50:47] * Darke is almost blind anyway, so blurryness is a state of the world. *grin*
[09:50:53] <ShadwChsr> :)
[09:51:08] <ShadwChsr> I think you guys need a new installation option
[09:51:24] <ShadwChsr> after the install finishes a window pops up specifying which default config you want
[09:51:28] <ShadwChsr> "classic" or "exult"
[09:51:55] <ShadwChsr> classic does 320x240 (close enough) 2x point, with most keyboard & mouse settings in nostalgic mode ;-)
[09:52:06] <ShadwChsr> That way the player gets total deja-vu (just the way I like it ;-)
[09:52:21] <Darke> Anyway, I can't seem to get it to reproduce on linux, nor do much about it on windows since I don't have any compile tools installed on my flatmate's box. *grin* Have to wait until Colourless or someone comes along to say that "Yeah, it's a SDL problem" or something.
[09:52:34] <ShadwChsr> I find when little things are different about exult, things that arent necessarially bad, they REALLY bug me because of how I remember the original game ;-) Party formation, for example ;)
[09:52:37] * Darke shudders at the horrible, horrible blockyness. *grin*
[09:53:18] * Darke is a despisor of the original party formation, FYI. *grin* The current way isn't great but is immensely better then the original, IMO.
[09:53:36] <ShadwChsr> In exult they seem like their lost
[09:53:43] <ShadwChsr> they're
[09:54:11] <ShadwChsr> they're kinda like.. ho hum what's this in the window? oooo a new crossbow.. avatar? where'd the avatar go?
[09:55:19] <ShadwChsr> :)
[09:55:36] <ShadwChsr> oh well maybe one day my skills will be good enough that I'll sneak it in to the codebase when you're on vacation
[09:55:36] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[09:55:58] <ShadwChsr> anyhow, its really late - night!
[09:56:04] <ShadwChsr> thanks for looking into the bug for me
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[09:56:19] <Darke> That's one thing I like, they actually look somewhat like independant characters rather then footsoldiers. *grin*
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[13:23:55] <Colourless> hi
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[13:27:35] <wjp> hi
[13:27:39] <Colourless> hi
[13:28:55] <Colourless> darke and ShadwChsr (when you are here): I do not think it's an Exult problem, nor a SDL problem. Works just fine here. My guess, video card drivers
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[15:50:06] * Darke greetingsbounces and finally arrives. *grin*
[15:56:29] <Colourless> hi
[16:07:21] <wjp> hi :-)
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