#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 4 Jan 2005 (GMT)

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[00:27:44] <servus> I wonder if Dr.Code ever saw my U6-to-U7 map converter. It looks like crap, but not bad for crap.
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[00:39:37] <servus> Wee, 3D model code is in. It doesn't do anything yet, but hey.
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[01:01:06] <servus> I'm trying to find the highest place that shapes are cached in, if anyone wants to shortcut me :-)
[01:10:37] <servus> I see where shape *frames* are cached in...
[01:12:19] <servus> ShapeID::ShapeID, I guess
[01:21:20] <servus> Which is correct? "A shape is cached, and all of its frames are cached along with it". or "shape frames are cached individually"?
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[09:55:52] <servus> Wee, header cascade!
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[10:56:24] <sbx> hi shazza
[10:58:13] <shazza> hey
[11:08:06] <servus> Hopefully I'll have 3D trees in the next 5 minutes.
[11:12:44] <sbx> then what?
[11:12:50] <sbx> I have to make a 3D model?
[11:14:12] <servus> Well I have to get them working first ;-)
[11:14:55] <sbx> oh ok
[11:14:56] <sbx> whew
[11:15:13] <servus> I already made some 3D trees though, very Warcraft-III ish.
[11:17:00] <sbx> cool
[11:17:12] <sbx> did you see Andrea B Previtera's screenshot?
[11:17:16] <servus> Yes.
[11:17:20] <sbx> not Exult3D related
[11:19:16] <sbx> you can add werewolves to UltimaVII
[11:20:31] <servus> Heh. It already loads up any replacement files without source change.
[11:20:39] <servus> So you could, indeed, replace the avatar with a werewolf.
[11:23:44] <sbx> Replace the Avatar? Why does that make me think of a Jack Nicholson movie?
[11:23:53] <sbx> I was thinking replace some trolls.
[11:25:16] <sbx> No the Balrog.
[11:25:56] <sbx> But I'd probably prefer a 3D balrog model.
[11:26:11] <sbx> with new sound effects :)
[11:29:45] <servus> There's a Balrog in Ultima VII?..
[11:30:01] <sbx> oh wait
[11:30:04] <sbx> I wish
[11:30:16] <sbx> I was thinking about the Ethereal Demon.
[11:30:18] <sbx> sorry :P
[11:30:42] <servus> Thought maybe you were thinking Ultima Online :-)
[11:30:55] <sbx> This will be a lot better.
[11:30:56] <servus> KHexEdit is actually really nice.
[11:31:31] <sbx> I don't really remember it except it was sufficient for what I used it for.
[11:32:54] <servus> When you put the cursor over an area in the file, it gives a readout in things like 8, 16, 32 bit unsigned/signed integers, single/double float, big/little endian, so that you can actually interpret the data that is in the file.
[11:34:44] <sbx> yeah that's a good feature
[11:35:47] * servus tries to ferret out a stupid error... it's so close to working!
[11:35:47] <sbx> I like file-change searches and a graphical presentation of the data. But last time you said you use an image-editor plugin for that.
[11:36:04] <servus> For different things, yes
[11:37:06] <servus> Oh. My. God. I'm stupid. I kept wondering why my data was showing up and looking everywhere... I never freaded it :|
[11:37:55] <sbx> How freadful.
[11:38:02] <sbx> uh sorry
[11:38:06] * sbx hides from Darke.
[11:38:20] <sbx> even he wouldnt come up with something like that
[11:39:46] <servus> Little Bunny Foo-Foo...
[11:39:52] <servus> And bop him on the head
[12:10:51] <servus> Woo, I see trees.
[12:18:42] <sbx> We have trees.
[12:18:50] <sbx> Repeat. We have trees.
[12:19:01] <servus> Mostly. The top of the tress are NaN.
[12:19:13] <servus> Why am I having this stupid problems... I must be too tired :-)
[12:19:30] <sbx> They are just unstable trees.
[12:20:15] <servus> Threaded APL trees?
[12:21:36] <sbx> antimatter trees
[12:21:42] <servus> Meh. No fun.
[12:21:52] <sbx> not if you're standing next to them
[12:23:39] <servus> It's the strangest thing. Half of my vertices are NaN... I'll figure it out.
[12:24:17] <sbx> are you going to use md2 afterall?
[12:25:12] <servus> Not for now, at least. MD2s are very complicated, and remember that each and every shape/frame combination needs to be loaded. I'm going for speed, and thus an extremely simple file format right now.
[12:25:28] <servus> I can load the entire model with 1 malloc and 3 freads.
[12:25:48] <servus> Or 0 mallocs if I go the static-array route.
[12:26:08] <servus> Ah-ha, found my error.
[12:26:22] <servus> Gotta go BACK to Windows to fix the error and re-export the model... pleh.
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[12:27:29] <sbx> Dual-boot?
[12:27:31] <servus> 3D Max has an annoying habit of being efficient in the way it stores vertices.
[12:27:37] <servus> Right -- on my other computer. I need a third :>
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[12:35:06] <servus> Good. Trees fixed. Now to work on a texture manager.
[12:35:43] <servus> Hmm... texture format, texture format... Does Exult already have any non-shape image loading routines? If not, I'm putting in a tiny TGA handler.
[12:36:31] <sbx> png
[12:37:34] <servus> It has PNG support? Know which module?
[12:37:42] <servus> Or through SDL?
[12:40:19] <sbx> there are some png handling functions.
[12:40:29] <sbx> with exult
[12:40:46] <sbx> pngio.cc/pngio.h I think
[12:40:56] <servus> Alright.
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[13:00:39] <servus> You came back just to tell us you aren't here?
[13:02:01] * sbx|afk looks at himself.
[13:02:05] * sbx|afk looks at sbx.
[13:02:31] * sbx|afk looks at himself.
[13:02:33] <sbx|afk> Yes?
[13:03:04] <sbx|afk> Or my alternative nick is set incorreclt.y
[13:03:08] <sbx|afk> incorrectly.
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[13:03:40] <sbx> but sometimes I do just leave it and go afk :)
[13:06:30] <servus> How awful!
[13:10:20] <sbx> ?
[13:10:25] <sbx> Fine.
[13:10:28] --- sbx is now known as EsBee-Eks
[13:10:32] <EsBee-Eks> Better?
[13:12:40] <servus> That name strikes me as dirty, somehow.
[13:14:12] <EsBee-Eks> I don't see it.
[13:15:36] * servus checks Amazon.com to see the status of his **December 14th** order -- NOT yet shippde.
[13:16:24] <Darke> EsBee-Eks: Ess-bee-eks vs. Ess-ee-eks? I dunno. It's the closest my mind can warp it to.
[13:16:48] <servus> Darke, got 3D trees working.
[13:16:53] <EsBee-Eks> Darke: Glad you could join us to make that observation.
[13:17:00] <Darke> servus: Yayth!
[13:17:02] <servus> Presumably, 3D avatars would work too if I had the model.
[13:17:25] <Darke> EsBee-Eks: No problem. It's my duty as soverign guardian of all that's pure and innocent to enlighten you on such things. *halo*
[13:17:43] <servus> Darke, any other graphics-format loaders in Exult besides PNG? What do you recommend, or should I just do it on my own?
[13:18:46] * EsBee-Eks takes Darke's halo, bites it, and tosses it back. "Yup, fools' gold."
[13:19:09] <EsBee-Eks> ...or someones playing with their buckets of (gold) paint again
[13:19:24] <servus> It's actually iron dipped in fraznium.
[13:19:40] <Darke> servus: Not that I can recall. It doesn't look like we link against sdl-image or anythign either.
[13:20:48] <Darke> EsBee-Eks: Oi! That's my halo! I think you're just jealous. *indignantpiousfluff*
[13:20:54] <servus> What about what SBX mentioned -- this pngio.h which includes the function Import_png32?
[13:22:30] <servus> Looks like some actual code (./mapedit/shapelst.cc) uses Import_png8. I'll use Import_png32 then.
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[13:23:12] <Darke> Looks like a reasonable png reader to me. JSF's gltest code appears to use the png32 stuff.
[13:23:28] <servus> I see that, but that's not in the proper build so I'm ignoring what I see there.
[13:23:57] <Darke> The other alternative is to go cheap and drag in another sdl library: http://www.libsdl.org/projects/SDL_image/index.html This opens most common formats.
[13:24:43] <servus> make&&./exult
[13:24:55] <servus> Well this doesn't need to be a generalized solution.
[13:30:49] <servus> If a model doesn't have a matching texture, should the model just show up as white, or should it just default back to the old blocks-of-texture?
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[13:33:27] <EsBee-Eks> blocks-of-texture?
[13:33:39] <EsBee-Eks> rainbow?
[13:34:16] <servus> I'm referring to how all models are currently handled.
[13:34:39] <servus> Meh I'll just make missing textures white.
[13:35:26] <EsBee-Eks> What about bright pink?
[13:35:30] <Darke> You're probably better off making them pink, or something really wrong.
[13:35:38] <Darke> Stands out as 'error' easier.
[13:35:44] <EsBee-Eks> rainbow :)
[13:36:13] * Darke agrees with sex.
[13:36:16] <Darke> Err... sbx.
[13:36:28] <EsBee-Eks> Not with me you dont!
[13:36:31] * Darke curses the evil mind-warping of servus!
[13:36:37] <EsBee-Eks> oh... ok
[13:36:49] * EsBee-Eks grumbles.
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[13:38:46] <servus> Hey, I'm good for something.
[13:38:58] * Darke blinkies. I suppose that works. Thinks it makes sbx look a little crosseyed though.
[13:39:15] <servus> How's Pentagram going?
[13:40:06] <Darke> Apart from tripping over bugs in gcc, pretty well apparently.
[13:40:25] <Darke> (Not that I've got much of a hand in that, since I haven't really done much of anything with it in a while. *eardroop*)
[13:41:06] <servus> Well I ran Pentagram a very long time ago and I could already cast some spells, so I wondered how near to completion it was :-)
[13:42:03] <Colourless> the gcc bugs were not found IN pentagram :-)
[13:42:09] <Darke> wjp has finished it from start to end a couple of times.
[13:42:17] <Colourless> instead we were debugging a problem in ScummVM and MSVC
[13:42:24] <Darke> Ahh.
[13:42:41] <Colourless> and the solution to the MSVC problem created a problem, in pretty much the same spot in GCC :-)
[13:42:46] <Colourless> so either have one, or the other
[13:42:56] <Colourless> but willem found a solution that worked for both
[13:43:01] * Darke got disconnected halfway through that conversation so missed a chunk of it. *grin*
[13:43:37] <Darke> Alternately, you could just use a #ifdef __MSVC__ or whatever around the appropriate friend declarations. *grin*
[13:44:08] * Darke proposes a solution to solve an already solved problem. Helpful isn't he? *grin*
[13:44:22] * Colourless proposed this solution twice
[13:44:25] <X-BS> Colourless seems to like #ifdefs.
[13:45:44] <servus> It's because MSVC7 stinks.
[13:45:54] <servus> make&&./exult
[13:46:22] <X-BS> I like #ifdefs too.
[13:46:30] <servus> I have an odd g++ linking error.
[13:47:23] <servus> vgafile.cc:88 Undefined reference to ModelFrame3D::~ModelFrame3D [in-charge]() (the line in question is Shape_frame's virtual destructor which does a if( model ) delete model
[13:48:21] <servus> and yes, the ~ModelFrame3D is certainly defined. Odd. I'll work on it
[13:50:46] * X-BS wonders where the coders went.
[13:51:41] <servus> What coders?
[13:52:03] <X-BS> the ones in this channel
[13:52:12] <X-BS> Colourless & Darke
[13:52:41] * wjp stays hidden
[13:53:05] <X-BS> oops
[13:53:13] <wjp> Darke: actually I only finished U8 in pentagram once
[13:53:15] <X-BS> wjp succesfully used his sneaking skill! +10xp
[13:54:15] <Darke> X-BS: Lies! All lies! I'm not a coder. I'm simply a cute and innocent (AND harmless!) bunny. *noddle*
[13:54:15] * servus doesn't even know what in-charge means
[13:54:53] <wjp> it probably just means you declared a destructor but didn't implement it
[13:56:26] <servus> I certainly did implement it. It's a compilation error, and not a linking error, too, which makes it stranger...
[13:56:32] <servus> Ah, I see. Strange though. What's ipack for?
[13:57:03] <servus> Looks like I've just got to add stuff to the makefile section for this ipack tool.
[13:57:37] <wjp> not linking against files which define the destructor would indeed produce the same effect as not defining it :-)
[13:58:08] <servus> I was assuming that everything in the middle of the build process was compilation. I didn't know that I was doing multiple links :-)
[13:58:32] <X-BS> It links when you exit a directory doesn't it?
[13:58:42] <wjp> you did call it a linking error when you first mentioned it, though :-)
[13:59:13] <servus> Well of course, undefined reference == linking error. My font is too small :-)
[13:59:26] <servus> The Exult makefile is absurd :-)
[13:59:50] <wjp> the automake/autoconf-generated one?
[14:00:38] <servus> Yeah.
[14:00:51] <servus> Millions of nested autogenerated makefiles.
[14:03:01] <wjp> you'll generally want to avoid looking at them, yes :-)
[14:03:56] <servus> Can't. Have to edit them.
[14:04:40] <servus> Nooo! I forgot to do an #include in a header! Gotta recompile everything!
[14:05:33] <wjp> editing generated Makefiles? that sounds like a bad idea
[14:05:46] <wjp> you should modify the Makefile.am files
[14:05:59] <wjp> (or configure.ac depending on what you want)
[14:06:46] <servus> I should, but I just want to get this working with textures then I can sleep :-
[14:06:55] <X-BS> just compile by hand
[14:07:01] * servus shivers.
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[14:33:39] <servus> Wee, textured trees.
[14:33:40] <servus> Wazza!
[14:45:00] <X-BS> Are they stable?'
[14:46:02] <servus> Haven't crashed yet. What do you mean?
[14:47:27] <X-BS> The tops being NaN.
[14:47:44] <servus> Oh I figured that out a long while ago
[14:47:50] <X-BS> I guess you couldn't texture then.
[14:47:53] <X-BS> ok cool
[14:48:02] <servus> Now they are all just a little bit... underground.
[14:48:56] <X-BS> they have roots
[14:49:22] <servus> They are roots.
[14:49:48] <servus> Cool. Done.
[14:50:07] <X-BS> screenshot?
[14:51:42] <servus> http://24.205.120.21:81/images/screenshots/Exult3D-21.jpg
[14:51:47] <servus> First Exult3D screenshot for some time.
[14:52:25] <servus> I just symlinked all the trees to the same model/texture... those are supposed to be different trees.
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[14:53:32] <servus> Oh, and clicking on any part of the 3D model still selects it.
[14:57:59] <X-BS> That's good. The NPC and building are distracting now.
[14:58:03] <X-BS> What kind of trees are they?
[14:58:10] <servus> Green ones.
[14:58:20] <servus> Dunno, just a few cones I threw together and textured.
[14:58:46] <servus> However, with relatively complex models such as these, we can do some neat lighting.
[14:59:15] <servus> Gonna send some replies to emails I got a while ago from people offering to help with modelling :-)
[15:01:51] <servus> You guys have gotta help me out here -- what precedent should I set, when it comes to model complexity? Low-end to work everywhere, or try to do something that takes advantage of new hardware, like Tenebrae?
[15:03:13] <X-BS> Something that looks exactly like U7.
[15:03:41] <servus> Err?
[15:03:54] <X-BS> It should look like U7 in 3D.
[15:04:07] <X-BS> Same coloring and design.
[15:04:16] <X-BS> I'm not sure if that means low-end.
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[15:04:23] <X-BS> NPCs could be much more detailed.
[15:06:18] <X-BS> How do I go about making a model for it?
[15:08:59] <servus> Colourless is going to hate this, but I'm using a custom export plugin for 3D Studio Max. I can write a converter for any file format, probably.
[15:15:18] <X-BS> md2?
[15:15:29] <X-BS> there's probably a lot of md2 editors
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[15:16:11] <servus> I'm very hesitant to decide upon a model format that does a thousand times more than I need.
[15:16:28] <servus> Besides, there are model editors, and model editors can export to MD2 :P
[15:17:57] <X-BS> I mean you could make a converter?
[15:20:13] <servus> Certainly
[15:21:18] <servus> What modelling program do you use?
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[15:26:07] <X-BS> i don't have one yet
[15:30:56] <servus> Well, back to Windows for me, gonna make some thingies!
[15:32:14] <Fl00der> servus: are you the one who is making Exult 3D?
[15:32:19] <servus> I am.
[15:32:28] <Fl00der> so, how project is going?
[15:32:30] <servus> Just the 3D part though. Other people already made Exult ;-)
[15:32:37] <Fl00der> heh..yea :)
[15:32:45] <servus> http://24.205.120.21:81/images/screenshots/Exult3D-21.jpg new screenshot
[15:33:05] <servus> Now I'm gonna spend some time making a bunch of models and stuff to import.
[15:33:07] <Fl00der> looks nice :)
[15:33:13] <servus> Thanks
[15:33:24] <servus> One thing that needs to be done BAD is mountains
[15:33:27] <Fl00der> except Avatar and Iolo
[15:33:29] <servus> Then ships...
[15:33:34] <servus> Then NPCs of course
[15:33:35] <Fl00der> they are like squaures :P
[15:33:47] <servus> They are, in fact, rectangular prisms, a close cousin of the cube.
[15:33:59] <servus> :P
[15:34:21] <Fl00der> will you edit them better later or you keep them squares?
[15:34:43] <servus> I should love a large graphical list of all the U7 shapes.
[15:34:50] <servus> They should look as "good" as the trees when I'm done.
[15:34:58] <Fl00der> ah. ok :)
[15:35:05] <Fl00der> trees looks very good now
[15:35:23] <servus> They'll look better once I put lighting in; thanks:)
[15:35:51] <Fl00der> nice :)
[15:36:47] <servus> Actually I think I had made a program to make an HTML art-gallery out of all the U7 shapes... *Scrounges*
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[16:12:23] <servus> Well, time to start modelling some trees.
[16:12:45] <servus> Gonna make 'em look as similar to the original Ultima ones as possible. I already have plenty of indoor stuff modelled that I made for Underworld Adventures. I can use those :-)
[16:13:04] <servus> Nice thing is that now, not all trees have to be TINY.
[16:27:48] <X-BS> You mean you'll make some giant trees? I think Silverleaf trees and the Emps' houses will look nice.
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[16:36:11] <[KrusheR]> are you guys creating an all new ultima VII?
[16:40:36] <servus> No.
[16:41:06] <[KrusheR]> i mean new, gfx engine, models...
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[16:48:28] <servus> Yes, that, but the new models are just a cosmetic change.
[16:49:40] <X-BS> Well, time to sleep.
[16:49:42] <X-BS> cya
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[16:50:03] <servus> Decide first: Crappy low-poly trees that are all done with big bitmaps or good high-poly trees?
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[17:35:18] <servus> I used to have a great tree-making plugin for 3D Studio Max, but I can't even remember its name now... darnit.
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[18:32:11] <servus> Hmm. As long as no one *walked* on top of a mountain, I could make it as high as I wanted.
[18:59:50] <Fl00der> Servus: when you are going to release Exult 3D playable Alpha for windows?
[19:00:02] <servus> As soon as it's not dog slow :-)
[19:00:23] <servus> The source is compileable for Windows, though.
[19:01:49] <Fl00der> :)
[19:39:11] <servus> What are those crazy little silverleaf eating monkeys called?
[19:39:28] <servus> I'm compiling a list of prominent items to remake
[20:25:46] <servus> Are these flying gargoyle animations ever actually used?
[20:43:08] <servus> http://rafb.net/paste/results/QmZUTd56.html this is a list of what I plan/hope/would like to be replaced with 3D models.
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