#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 4 Jun 2001 (GMT)

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[00:38:18] --> fester has joined #exult
[01:25:23] <-- fester has left IRC (hasta)
[11:10:41] --> wjp has joined #exult
[15:21:33] --> Colourless has joined #Exult
[15:21:38] <Colourless> hi
[15:22:32] <wjp> hi
[15:23:16] <Colourless> i've just been reading the set of Legalities emails
[15:23:56] <Colourless> can't say I think there would be a problem with changing the plot
[15:24:06] <Colourless> we've done far worse already
[15:24:36] <wjp> as long as we don't change the plot by distributing the data files themselves, I doubt EA would really mind
[15:25:11] <wjp> U9's plot has been changed quite a lot by the Dialogue patch, and the Monster & Economy patches changed quite a lot too
[15:25:18] <Colourless> i just sent a email to the list, you may find it interesting :)
[15:25:35] * wjp checks mail
[15:25:54] <wjp> I got a one-hour delay on the list last night, btw :/
[15:26:03] <wjp> so it might take a while before I get it
[15:26:26] <Colourless> ah ok. I'll just past it here
[15:26:48] <Colourless> Pretty obviously we have already broken the license agreement. We've done this in a few ways.
[15:26:49] <Colourless> 1) Exult is a reproduction of the Ultima 7 engine.
[15:26:49] <Colourless> 2) The Font used in the EXULT Menu is a font from BG. We are distributing this copyrighted data.
[15:26:49] <Colourless> 3) Paperdolls in BG require us distributing data, some of which is based on copyrighted art.
[15:26:49] <Colourless> 4) The new in game menus require us to distribute data that is based upon copyrighted art.
[15:26:49] <Colourless> 5) The SFX waves that we are distributing are a reproduction of the sounds from
[15:27:07] <Colourless> the game
[15:28:28] <wjp> yeah, true :-)
[15:29:03] <wjp> although I'm not sure if the reproduction of the engine is the kind of reproduction the license prohibits
[15:29:30] <wjp> but then again, I'm no expert on copyright law
[15:29:44] <Colourless> if it ever went to court, we'd lose. that would almost be certain
[15:30:07] <wjp> yeah, probably
[15:30:21] <Colourless> it would very much be a thing of semantics. They would attempt to make the word reproduce mean as much as possible
[15:31:40] <Colourless> i somehow don't think EA really cares anyway. It's not like they don't know about Exult
[15:32:24] <wjp> yeah, they probably don't want to spend another dollar on that whole "Ultima-offline" thing
[15:33:58] <wjp> I have to go for a while; bbl
[15:34:02] <Colourless> ok
[15:34:03] <Colourless> cya
[16:07:48] <wjp> back
[16:07:57] <Colourless> wb
[16:08:18] <wjp> thanks
[16:11:30] <wjp> do you know a preprocesser macro you can use to identify MSVC++? maybe something like __MSVC__?
[16:12:02] <Colourless> there is one
[16:13:17] * wjp greps through some source trees for MSVC
[16:13:21] <Colourless> use _MSC_VER
[16:13:34] <wjp> thanks
[16:16:08] <Colourless> it's set to the version of MSVC, but I've not completely sure how to tell what version is being used
[16:17:26] <wjp> hmm, I see
[16:20:02] <wjp> kind of annoying to get a msvc project to compile in linux... case sensitivity in filenames can be a pain :-)
[16:20:59] <wjp> (or the case insensitivity, depends on your point of view)
[16:22:06] <Colourless> imho having case sensitivity in a file system is a silly idea.
[16:23:56] <Colourless> it's just too confusing to use really.
[16:24:13] <wjp> well, you get used to it rather quickly
[16:25:15] <Colourless> perhaps.
[16:25:31] <wjp> although I would agree that's it's not that useful
[16:25:42] <wjp> s/that's/that/
[16:29:56] <wjp> is there a windows equivalent to the UNIX timestamps? (seconds since 1 jan. 1970 or something)
[16:30:41] <wjp> or is that stuff ANSI C?
[16:34:44] <wjp> never mind, I'll go and experiment a bit :-)
[16:44:01] <Colourless> it's just ansi c
[16:56:33] <wjp> hmm, is there an english word for 'switching planes'? (ie. stopping at an airport just to catch a next flight)
[16:56:58] <wjp> my english 'travel' vocabulary is a bit limited :/
[16:57:25] <wjp> I'm a lot more fluent in computer-related english ;-)
[16:57:45] <Colourless> hmmm. I don't think there is a word in english to describe that. People generally talk about connected flights.
[16:58:18] <Colourless> of course i think the word transfer is used
[16:58:49] <wjp> I see; thanks
[17:00:20] <wjp> dinner's ready; bbl
[17:00:25] <Colourless> k
[17:03:19] --> Fingolfin has joined #exult
[17:03:48] <Fingolfin> hiya
[17:03:58] <Colourless> hi
[17:04:33] * Fingolfin cvs updates exult on OS X
[17:05:02] * Fingolfin notices he has SDL not installed ATM, and goes get CVS of that, too
[17:16:18] <wjp> hey Max
[17:17:27] <Fingolfin> hi wjp!
[17:21:15] * wjp is working on some silly univ. project :/
[17:21:38] <wjp> Software Engineering class: write a 2000 LoC program in a team of 5 students
[17:21:51] * Fingolfin is usually working for university, or "real" work or on JabberFoX -> almost no time for exult left :(
[17:21:59] <Fingolfin> LoC`what's that?
[17:22:04] <wjp> lines of code
[17:22:36] <wjp> yeah, same here... I've hardly done anything on exult last 3-4 weeks
[17:22:40] <Fingolfin> uhm
[17:22:45] <Fingolfin> what sort of program?
[17:22:45] * Colourless is creating on the "next big thing". However he is doing it rather slowly and hasn't yet written a line of code.
[17:23:08] <wjp> oh, some kind of flight planner thingie.
[17:23:40] <Fingolfin> pfff
[17:23:43] <wjp> you say you want to go from A to B, it suggests a flightplan, and you accept it or not
[17:23:52] <Fingolfin> ;)
[17:23:53] <Fingolfin> sure thing ;)
[17:23:54] <wjp> Colourless: "next big thing" ?
[17:24:01] <Fingolfin> which OS?
[17:24:09] <Colourless> wjp: exactly :)
[17:24:17] <wjp> windows, MSVC...
[17:24:42] <Colourless> wjp: something that will make me lots and lots and lots of money :)
[17:25:05] <wjp> Colourless: sounds good :-)
[17:25:25] <Colourless> :)
[17:25:49] <wjp> Fingolfin: anyway, as I'm sure you can imagine, it's a real challenge... *cough* *cough* ;-)
[17:26:07] <wjp> and we only have 3 months to complete it!
[17:26:10] <Fingolfin> yeah, it sounds very *cough* hard and *couzgh* complicated ;)
[17:26:14] <Fingolfin> oh my god!
[17:26:15] <Fingolfin> that is unfair!
[17:26:17] <Colourless> wjp: hehe. dunno if you'd agree. It's purely windows based program (Direct3D)
[17:26:19] <Fingolfin> so much pressure on you guys!
[17:26:22] <Fingolfin> and you are only 5
[17:26:36] <Fingolfin> well, but you have to use MSVC and windows, that'll make it easy ;)
[17:26:48] <wjp> yeah, we have to write 4 HUNDRED lines of code each... that means we have to write SEVERAL lines EACH DAY!
[17:26:58] <Fingolfin> oh my god
[17:27:20] <Fingolfin> tell me the name of the professor, I'll make sure they put him to jail for being so cruel and unfair to the studetns
[17:27:22] <Fingolfin> !
[17:27:31] <Fingolfin> my god
[17:27:47] <wjp> Colourless: what, not cross-platform? ;-)
[17:28:28] <Fingolfin> hmmmmmmm
[17:28:29] <Colourless> wjp: nope. I have no way of developing my idea cross platform
[17:28:34] * Fingolfin can't do autogen.sh for exutl....
[17:29:26] <wjp> Colourless: hmm, did I ask what it was sometime before? Somehow this sounds familiar
[17:29:39] <Fingolfin> why do we need "libtoolize --force --copy" ????
[17:30:05] <Colourless> wjp: nope. I only started this a few weeks ago and haven't really told anyone about it.
[17:30:40] <wjp> Colourless: I must be getting old then... memory's playing tricks on me again :-)
[17:31:41] <wjp> Fingolfin: not a clue... doesn't libtool require it?
[17:31:47] <Fingolfin> welll
[17:31:57] <Fingolfin> look at autogen.sh from SDL...
[17:32:04] <Fingolfin> it doesn't need it
[17:32:19] <wjp> but doesn't SDL use a custom libtool?
[17:32:24] <Fingolfin> I also wonder why SDL uses "--include-deps" as argument for automake, and we don't
[17:32:36] <Fingolfin> hmmmm
[17:33:38] <Colourless> wjp: :) at the moment my idea is mostly all theory. well thought out theory none the less. i've got scraps of paper all over the place with note on them about how to do the thing I want my program to do.
[17:33:45] <Fingolfin> well, libtoolize is glibtoolize for me, so I can live with it and a small change
[17:33:59] <wjp> Colourless: you're making me very curious :-)
[17:35:30] <Colourless> wjp: it's an idea for a 3d engine. A 3d engine with a very advanced method of doing lighting
[17:38:15] <wjp> Fingolfin: autogen.sh could maybe use some extra flexibility
[17:38:23] <Fingolfin> well
[17:38:25] <Fingolfin> it goes farther
[17:38:39] <Fingolfin> libtoolize seems to get called in other places, too
[17:38:47] <wjp> I need to modify the aclocal line on Solaris too, for instance (need an extra aclocal path setting)
[17:39:06] <Fingolfin> so I added a symlink
[17:39:15] <Fingolfin> btw, I also get "You should add the contents of `/sw/share/aclocal/libtool.m4' to `aclocal.m4'.
[17:39:15] <Fingolfin> "
[17:39:37] <wjp> yeah, I get something like that too
[17:40:01] <wjp> same thing in fact. (well, different path)
[17:40:03] <Fingolfin> uhh
[17:40:07] <Fingolfin> sdl finished compiling ;)
[17:40:57] <wjp> the thing is, aclocal.m4 is auto-generated
[17:41:34] <wjp> (at least, I think it is)
[17:41:34] <Colourless> uh oh. I just remember, I have actually written some code for this. I'm not sure if any of it is useful though. I think it's all incorrect
[17:45:15] * Fingolfin finally gets ./configure to work and starts make
[17:45:47] <wjp> Fingolfin: where does libtoolize get called? a grep only shows it in autogen.sh
[17:45:55] <Fingolfin> weeelllll
[17:46:05] <Fingolfin> wait a sec
[17:46:31] <Fingolfin> [localhost:Projekte/ExultMacOSX/exult] maxhorn% ./autogen.sh
[17:46:31] <Fingolfin> usage: rm [-dfiPRrW] file ...
[17:46:32] <Fingolfin> automake: configure.in: installing `./install-sh'
[17:46:32] <Fingolfin> automake: configure.in: installing `./mkinstalldirs'
[17:46:32] <Fingolfin> automake: configure.in: installing `./missing'
[17:46:32] <Fingolfin> configure.in: 136: installing `./ltmain.sh'; cannot run `libtoolize': No such file or directory
[17:46:34] <Fingolfin> configure.in: 136: installing `./config.guess'; cannot run `libtoolize': No such file or directory
[17:46:37] <Fingolfin> configure.in: 136: installing `./config.sub'; cannot run `libtoolize': No
[17:46:38] <Fingolfin> such file or directory
[17:46:40] <Fingolfin> automake: configure.in: installing `./config.guess'; cannot run `libtoolize': No such file or directory
[17:46:42] <Fingolfin> automake: configure.in: installing `./config.sub'; cannot run `libtoolize': No such file or directory
[17:46:44] <Fingolfin> ^C
[17:46:46] <Fingolfin> [
[17:47:10] <wjp> ah, I see
[17:47:14] <Fingolfin> (at this stage, I had removed libtoolize from autogen.sh; I put it back in later on after I made a symlink for libttolize)
[17:47:21] <Fingolfin> it gets called by autoconf I think
[17:47:26] <Fingolfin> or so
[17:47:39] <Fingolfin> I am not very adept with autoconf/make as you might have guessed ;)
[17:48:24] <wjp> I don't know anything about the inner workings of the thing either
[17:48:36] <wjp> just how the configure.in & Makefile.am files work roughly
[17:48:47] <Colourless> don't look at me. i'm a windows user
[17:48:59] <Fingolfin> bah
[17:49:30] * Fingolfin looks at the very helpful error messages GCC generates
[17:49:51] <Fingolfin> CC [...snip...] SDL_mapping.cc:36: initialization to `void (*)(Uint8 *, Uint8 *, unsigned int, int)' from `void (*)(Uint8 *, const Uint8 *, unsigned int, int)'
[17:49:58] <wjp> using SDL CVS?
[17:50:01] <Fingolfin> it doesn't even contain a *verb* ;)
[17:50:03] <Fingolfin> yeah
[17:50:08] <Fingolfin> that's the problem? ;)
[17:50:14] <wjp> yeah
[17:50:24] <wjp> they added a const somewhere in a function header I think
[17:50:48] <Fingolfin> should be easy to fix then
[17:50:58] <wjp> SDL_mapping.h, line 52
[17:51:12] <wjp> Uin8 *src -> const Uint8 *src
[17:51:15] <Fingolfin> well, with CodeWarrior, it would have told me: "initialization to ... *but expected to see ...*" which would have been helpful <sigh>
[17:51:39] <Fingolfin> thx
[17:52:08] <wjp> converting the other way wouldn't be a problem right? then we could just commit this...
[17:52:17] <Fingolfin> yeah
[17:52:40] <Fingolfin> but I won't commit anything before I got this working ;)
[17:52:46] <Fingolfin> uhhh
[17:52:56] <Fingolfin> now it even gives me a complete error message, how gentle ;)
[17:53:04] <wjp> wow :-)
[17:53:34] <Fingolfin> forgot to change the .cc file, too ;)
[17:53:46] <wjp> oh, right, sorry
[17:53:52] <Fingolfin> nah
[17:54:02] <Fingolfin> I should have thought myself ;)
[17:55:14] <wjp> hmm, the '1'-'8' inventory access shortcuts don't work anymore :/
[17:55:54] <wjp> ah... Jeff broke it when removing Gump_mode
[17:56:30] <Colourless> is it just me or has jeff seemingly broken more than he's fixed lately.
[17:56:33] <Colourless> :)
[17:56:40] <wjp> hehe :-)
[17:56:49] <Colourless> i mean, out of everthing i've committed lately, i haven't broken a thing :)
[17:57:08] <wjp> now why doesn't that surprise me? ;-)
[17:57:21] * wjp checks ChangeLog
[17:58:26] <wjp> I _might_ have broken something... I didn't exactly test that si_display_map function very well
[17:59:08] <wjp> anyway, I have to go again... back in an hour
[17:59:12] <Colourless> k
[17:59:33] --- Fingolfin is now known as Fingolfin|away
[17:59:36] <Fingolfin|away> me, too ;)
[17:59:44] <Colourless> arrggh
[17:59:49] <Colourless> :)
[18:00:17] <Fingolfin|away> dinner time, watcha want?
[18:00:43] <Fingolfin|away> all this things going on in Nepal .. they get more weight if you have an aunt living there, like me...
[18:00:59] <Colourless> me?
[18:02:34] <Colourless> i should really be going off to bed soon
[18:03:19] <Fingolfin|away> "me" as in "I", not "me" as in "you" ;)
[18:03:23] <Fingolfin|away> and yeah, you should
[18:03:26] <Fingolfin|away> and now I am really away ;)
[18:13:30] <-- Colourless has left IRC (i must be going)
[18:58:48] <-- Fingolfin|away has left IRC (42)
[22:19:08] <chimera|wookin> bed? what's this talk of bed?
[22:19:25] <wjp> heh, I don't know...
[22:19:30] <wjp> weaklings :-)
[22:21:05] <chimera|wookin> wjp!
[22:21:15] <wjp> hi :-)
[22:36:48] --> ArizailUngol has joined #exult
[22:37:07] <wjp> hi
[22:37:13] <ArizailUngol> Hi
[22:37:30] <ArizailUngol> Tis a while since i last stuck my head in here
[22:37:43] <ArizailUngol> Hows things going?
[22:38:54] <wjp> slowly but steadily :-)
[22:39:35] <ArizailUngol> hehe
[22:39:55] <ArizailUngol> sounds familiar :)
[22:40:02] <wjp> :-)
[22:41:34] <wjp> I'm in the middle of an exam period, so I don't have much time left to work on Exult, unfortunately :/
[22:42:02] <ArizailUngol> aye, everyone seems to be like that at the moment dont they
[22:42:17] <wjp> yeah... busy time of year
[22:42:22] <ArizailUngol> its either doing exams or finished exams and looking for a job
[22:44:00] <wjp> I still have a few years of studying to go before I need to go looking for a job, luckily :-)
[22:45:29] <ArizailUngol> i'll be nearly twice my current age if things go to plan :)
[22:45:43] <wjp> :-)
[22:46:21] <ArizailUngol> shesh, thats scary:)
[23:11:11] <-- ArizailUngol has left IRC (Ping timeout for ArizailUngol[modem-67.heniochus.dialup.pol.co.uk])
[23:28:37] --> Dominus has joined #Exult
[23:28:44] <Dominus> hello
[23:28:46] <wjp> hey Dominik
[23:29:11] <Dominus> wjp: just dropping by to tell you I like the actual map for the teleport cheat
[23:29:29] <Dominus> judging by the links you gave
[23:29:37] * wjp adds one vote to 'pro' :-)
[23:29:50] <wjp> do you think I should touch up the SI map?
[23:30:02] <wjp> (remove the dungeon areas)
[23:30:13] <Dominus> actually no, as it is used for cheating
[23:30:39] <Dominus> when I cheat I want to see all
[23:31:09] <wjp> would you like the roofs popped too, then?
[23:31:39] <Dominus> but it seems that some dungeons areas on the map have some kind of roofs and for that it would be nice to remove the roofs for that
[23:31:46] <wjp> I've got those maps too, so it would be easy to do
[23:32:03] <Dominus> for the non-dungeon part I prefer it with roofs especially in BG
[23:32:17] <wjp> hmm, that's going to be tricky
[23:32:40] <Dominus> I guess so, taking some effort in editing
[23:33:04] <wjp> how are you with image editing tools? ;-)
[23:34:08] <Dominus> so so, easy to get frustrated
[23:35:01] <wjp> yeah, I know the feeling
[23:37:27] <wjp> hmm...
[23:37:54] <Dominus> and like yourself Iīm currently low on time but if you want to I could take a look at that part for SI (isnīt really neccessary for BG, Iīd say) just tell me again what the switches are to generate the maps
[23:39:01] <wjp> exult -game serpentisle -buildmap x
[23:39:12] <wjp> x = 0 shows all roofs, x = 2 pops them all
[23:39:35] <wjp> it'll generate 400Mb of .pcx's in the current directory
[23:40:06] <wjp> if you want, I've also got 3072x3072 version of all 4 maps (BG/SI with/without roofs)
[23:40:10] <wjp> these are about 10Mb each
[23:40:28] <Dominus> that would be great, as it would save me some computer time
[23:41:00] <Dominus> if you donīt mind putting those up somewhere :-)
[23:41:21] <wjp> I'll put them on a zip disk. They'll be on my univ. account tomorrow
[23:41:46] <Dominus> ok, great, just mail me the urls then :-)
[23:42:48] <wjp> gigdr at tesionmail?
[23:43:00] <Dominus> yep!
[23:43:10] <wjp> k
[23:43:18] <Dominus> as it says on the exult site :-)
[23:43:33] <wjp> I just took a peek in my exult mailbox :-)
[23:43:48] <wjp> now how did I get that zip drive to work in linux again?? :-)
[23:45:41] <wjp> I just love those "not-really-mature-yet" features :/
[23:46:17] <Dominus> thatīs why I stick with MS, mature but very buggy features :-)
[23:46:46] <wjp> :-)
[23:47:17] <Dominus> a funny post on the dragons newsgroup:
[23:47:30] <wjp> which subject?
[23:47:31] <Dominus> > IMHO Black Gate as a game is better than Serpent Isle. But Serpent Isle
[23:47:31] <Dominus> > is a lot more playable. It has the key ring, hot keys and the nice
[23:47:31] <Dominus> > paper doll inventory.
[23:47:32] <Dominus> >
[23:47:32] <Dominus> > So I was thinking wouldn't it be easy to implement those thing to Black
[23:47:32] <Dominus> > Gate too? The hot keys should be very simple, and even without the
[23:47:34] <Dominus> > key ring, it would be easy to program the key 'k' to open any locked
[23:47:36] <Dominus> > door if Avatar has the key. The paper doll inventory should be
[23:47:38] <Dominus> > relatively easy to bring on too, as the two games have the exact
[23:47:39] <Dominus> > same graphics. SI has even more objects.
[23:47:50] <Dominus> > Is anyone at attempt doing this? I don't have the skills, but since
[23:47:51] <Dominus> > it is possible to run U7 in Windows nowadays, I would guess somebody
[23:47:51] <Dominus> > had this idea too. And since U7 is ranked up pretty high in the
[23:47:51] <Dominus> > Ultima popularity scales afaik, the motivation possibly couldn't be an
[23:47:51] <Dominus> > obstacle..?
[23:48:01] <wjp> hehe :-)
[23:48:16] <wjp> hmm... what he describes sounds pretty familiar :-)
[23:48:21] <Dominus> someone pointed him to the right place allready :-)
[23:48:34] <wjp> hmm, what's the Subject of that msg?
[23:48:46] <Dominus> From: alammen81@artic.net (Alammen)
[23:48:46] <Dominus> Newsgroups: rec.games.computer.ultima.series
[23:48:46] <Dominus> Subject: Attempts to 'serpentize' Black Gate?
[23:48:58] <wjp> rcgud, right?
[23:49:09] <wjp> oh, ultima.series
[23:49:14] <Dominus> itīs the series group, actually
[23:49:19] <Dominus> :-)
[23:49:52] <Dominus> hope he doesnīt feel offended if he checks out these logs now
[23:51:05] <wjp> zipdrive works! yay!
[23:51:17] <Dominus> good!
[23:51:34] <wjp> I wonder how fast those things are...
[23:52:01] * wjp makes a note of how to get it to work
[23:52:14] <wjp> (now if can just remember I made that node the next time :-) )
[23:55:36] <wjp> wow, I'm just now receiving the cvs-logs from 4 hours ago
[23:59:31] <wjp> oh, btw, the SI map has to be 177x176