#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 4 Sep 2001 (GMT)

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[00:01:13] <fingolfin> basically, what we do is this:
[00:01:31] <fingolfin> the whole game map is split up into very small parts, 8x8 pixels, we call those "tiles"
[00:01:33] <fingolfin> now
[00:01:49] <fingolfin> whenever an object is placed somehwere, exult checks its "is_solid" flag
[00:02:08] <fingolfin> if that flag is set to true, it marks all "tiles" that the object is covering as "blocked"
[00:02:28] <fingolfin> then exult has only to check blockage as measured by these small tiles, which is rather simple
[00:03:15] <fingolfin> of course, if you want big complex objects, you cannot just block a big rectangle; in this case, you probably could store a blockage map with the object, which simply lists all sub-tiles of that object that are to be considered as blocked
[00:03:37] <ShadwChsr> Ahhhh thats where i was uncertain
[00:03:43] <ShadwChsr> I wasn't sure if they used the blockage map or not
[00:04:00] <ShadwChsr> err "A" blockage map ;) I didn't want to program one and find out it was a stupid thing to do
[00:04:13] <fingolfin> well
[00:04:43] <fingolfin> what you do is you save with every object what parts of it block. you have many possibilities on how to do that exactly
[00:05:07] <fingolfin> you can do it roughly, by only considering blocks of 8x8, which will give you a speed boost and takes up less space
[00:05:35] <fingolfin> or you do it on a pixel base, which will be finer, but take up a more space and also require a complex & slow collision detection
[00:05:57] * ShadwChsr nods
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[00:13:24] <fingolfin> well, I am not sure what file format you should use. exult only has rectangular blockings, so no "object block maps" are stored; however, I think it should be easy to come up with a format
[00:13:39] * ShadwChsr nods
[00:13:42] <fingolfin> e.g. simple store a bitmap, where each bit represents a "tile" of the object, and 1 means: blocked
[00:13:56] <fingolfin> many objects will have it set to all 1s
[00:14:01] <fingolfin> about handling heights:
[00:14:10] <fingolfin> every object has a height and a lift
[00:14:40] <fingolfin> the height tells you, well, how heigh the object is. compare a book with a street lamp
[00:15:03] <fingolfin> the lift tells you at which height the object is positioned; e.g. a book on the ground vs. a book on a table
[00:15:19] <fingolfin> i.e. you can think of this is the z-coordinates of an object
[00:15:29] <fingolfin> we do only 2d blocking though
[00:15:30] * ShadwChsr nods. And of course you use simple multipliers to calculate how where to draw it.
[00:15:44] <ShadwChsr> what's the height for?
[00:15:51] <fingolfin> sort of; rendering is another story, and horribly complicated ;)
[00:16:07] <fingolfin> ShadwChsr: well, a book is not as height as a table
[00:16:19] <fingolfin> if I place another book atop, I need to know what lift that new book has
[00:16:22] <fingolfin> also
[00:16:33] <fingolfin> we use sort of a z-buffer for every tile
[00:17:04] <ShadwChsr> so, lets say you have a table, and a bench. the bench is smaller
[00:17:12] <fingolfin> as I said: we do not store for each tile if it is blocked and how often; rather we store for each tile a variable that tells for every lift (every possible z coord): blocked or not
[00:17:22] <ShadwChsr> if you put the book on each - it would still have a lift of 2, but the height of each object would be different?
[00:17:29] <fingolfin> nono
[00:17:42] <fingolfin> say the book has height 1, the bench 2 and the table 4
[00:18:12] * ShadwChsr nods
[00:18:22] <fingolfin> the height is constan for all object. now, assume all are on the ground -> all have lift 0
[00:18:33] <fingolfin> nof if I place the book on the bench, it still has height 1, but is at lift 1
[00:18:37] <fingolfin> err, lift 2
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[00:18:43] <fingolfin> if I place it on the table it has lift 4
[00:18:59] <fingolfin> if I place another book onto the book on the table, it will be at lift 5
[00:19:03] <ShadwChsr> ahhhhhhhh I get it ;)
[00:19:22] <fingolfin> the sport where the two book on the table are will be "blocked" at heights 0 till 6
[00:19:29] <ShadwChsr> Now what about stairs & multifloors? I saw some of your stair code where it did some calculations to see if the person could walk over it and get moved up
[00:19:43] <fingolfin> err, I think some of my lifts where off by one, sorry ;)
[00:24:50] <ShadwChsr> actually, don't worry about multifloors yet :-) One step at a time.. I still need to get all this blocked code running. :)
[00:25:00] <ShadwChsr> How many "steps" do you have? 255?
[00:27:11] <fingolfin> ShadwChsr: I am not sure how many we use
[00:27:26] <fingolfin> but I think not more than 32
[00:27:35] <fingolfin> (i.e. one int)
[00:27:49] <ShadwChsr> One last question about terminology before I go code and let you sleep ;)
[00:27:54] <fingolfin> in fact I see we only use a short, so 16
[00:28:00] <fingolfin> about steps
[00:28:10] <ShadwChsr> usecode - the script that runs events/AI/etc in the game
[00:28:23] <ShadwChsr> shapes - ?? the objects in the game ??
[00:28:27] <fingolfin> the char can change his lift, but only +-1 (i.e. no big jumps down/up)
[00:28:44] <fingolfin> ShadwChsr: you got it roughtly right yeah
[00:28:54] <fingolfin> every shape can have multiple frames, though
[00:29:01] <ShadwChsr> gumps - User interface graphics (what does "gumps stand for)
[00:29:07] <fingolfin> sometimes, those frames belong together, e.g. a walking animation
[00:29:10] <ShadwChsr> and should I use the same terminology? I noticed UO has gumps too
[00:29:17] <fingolfin> sometimes, each frame represents its own object
[00:29:35] <fingolfin> gump - no idea what it stands for ;) but yeah, UI element
[00:29:51] <fingolfin> ShadwChsr: use whatever terminology you like ;)
[00:29:55] <ShadwChsr> chunk - collection of ground tiles? a single ground tile?
[00:29:59] <fingolfin> ShadwChsr: if you prefer to say "widget", do so
[00:30:12] <fingolfin> chunkīs are 16x16 tiles
[00:30:22] <fingolfin> we have 144x144 chunks IIRC
[00:30:26] <fingolfin> and every tiles is 8x8
[00:31:02] <ShadwChsr> so 18,000 pixels across the world? :)
[00:31:09] <fingolfin> so we get a total of 144*16*8 = 18432 pixels per side of the world, if I didnīt forget anything
[00:31:13] <ShadwChsr> there's "superchunks" or something like that, right?
[00:31:20] <ShadwChsr> 4 of em or something?
[00:31:25] <fingolfin> ah yeah of course, I knew I forgot something ;)
[00:31:33] <ShadwChsr> I read that years ago ;0
[00:31:41] <ShadwChsr> good old dos days ;)
[00:32:08] <ShadwChsr> Right now my game has dynamically sized "maps"
[00:32:41] <ShadwChsr> What I plan to do is have the maps seemless and have the game load nearby maps so it can swap em easy when you pass the "border"
[00:33:02] <ShadwChsr> is that a good idea? Or should I break it down more like U7.. superchunks/chunks/etc
[00:33:44] <fingolfin> ok, it works like this: we got 16*16 tiles pre chunk. We got 12 super chunks in each direction. and each super chunks contians 16*16 chunks
[00:33:45] <fingolfin> soo
[00:34:55] <fingolfin> we have a total of 16*16*12*16 tiles in each dir
[00:35:12] <fingolfin> making 393216 pixels
[00:35:41] <fingolfin> gosh now
[00:35:45] * fingolfin gives up
[00:35:57] <fingolfin> let me carefully rethinkg that
[00:36:04] <fingolfin> maybe when it is day and my brain works ,)
[00:36:39] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[00:36:53] <fingolfin> it is of course "only" 16*12*16*8=24576 pixels
[00:37:11] <fingolfin> still, if you render that at 8-bit color, you get a 600 MB map
[00:38:28] <ShadwChsr> If ultima used the baldurs gate engine ;)
[00:38:32] <ShadwChsr> thats why tiles are cool ;)
[00:39:07] <fingolfin> ;)
[00:39:17] <Waz> oh.. its not individual pixels.. its clumps of pixels are the indivudual graphics elements?
[00:39:28] <ShadwChsr> I should go eat dinner.. thanks for you help!!!
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[00:39:37] <fingolfin> Waz: yeah
[00:53:55] <fingolfin> night
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[03:00:27] <Waz> ?name
[03:00:27] <exultbot> Greetings Avatar. I am called Exultbot.
[03:00:30] <Waz> ?logs
[03:00:30] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exultlog.php3
[03:00:37] <Waz> thank you exultbot
[03:00:53] <Waz> hmm
[03:00:54] <Waz> ?love
[03:00:56] <Waz> hehe
[03:08:30] <Waz> h
[03:09:30] <Waz> exultbot: hi
[03:09:30] <exultbot> Hi Waz!
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[10:26:35] <wjp> hi
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[10:33:56] <fingolfin> hi
[10:43:25] <wjp|work> I finished Baal in NM tonight
[10:43:31] <wjp|work> Hell is... interesting
[10:47:35] <fingolfin> hehhehe
[10:47:58] <wjp|work> I did Tristram... there were 3 lightning enchanted bosses there
[10:48:32] <wjp|work> one of them physical immune too... really nice
[10:49:18] <fingolfin> =)
[10:49:23] <fingolfin> what level are you ATM?
[10:49:41] <wjp|work> 65
[10:50:22] <wjp|work> (assassin 65, sorc. is around 57)
[10:50:57] <fingolfin> cool ;)
[10:51:26] <fingolfin> argh! now that I hate! some app here wants qt and doesnīt find it (why? it is nicely installed... hm)... so its configure script tells me to look at config.log
[10:51:40] <fingolfin> sadly, config.log has as last message: "checking for qt". very helpful indeed
[10:51:41] <fingolfin> <sigh>
[10:51:49] * fingolfin starts digging through the .m4 files
[10:51:53] <wjp|work> check the configure script :-)
[10:52:18] <fingolfin> that was of course the first thing I did, it simply calls a macro
[10:52:32] * fingolfin is dealing with loads of configure scripts and automake files these days
[10:52:34] <wjp|work> broken macro's... fun
[10:53:03] <fingolfin> porting stuff to OS X is fun in general, but it too often reveals how poor the general knowledge of autoconf/automake is
[10:55:00] <wjp|work> hmm, come to think of it... does our configure.in work with 2.50?
[10:57:25] <fingolfin> I am using 2.52 and it works ;)
[10:57:31] <fingolfin> that is why I changed it after all ;)
[11:02:17] <fingolfin> ARGH! I *HATE* when folks do this! why o why do people think it is clever to check for libs by looking for the libs when they cannot anticipate all names?
[11:02:21] <fingolfin> <sugh>
[11:02:38] <fingolfin> it looks for libqt.so.2.2.3 libqt.so.2.2 libqt.so.2 libqt.a libqt.so
[11:03:10] <fingolfin> but fo me those are libqt.2.3.1.dylib libqt.2.dylib libqt.dylib
[11:03:36] <fingolfin> there are these nice macros in autoconf that look for libs, why not use them? I do not get it
[11:42:19] <wjp|work> because they don't know they exist, probably :-(
[12:00:46] <fingolfin> well, the reason is that they want to detect the exact dir the lib is in, so that they can use that path
[12:01:04] <fingolfin> though the proper way would be to change LDFLAGS by adding a path, runninc AC_CHECK_LIB
[12:01:12] <fingolfin> then if that does not work, try another LDFLAGS etc.
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[12:48:11] <Colourless> hi
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[15:37:35] --- ChanServ has changed the topic to: Exult, the open source Ultima 7 and U7 part 2 engine
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[16:26:17] <Colourless> is there anybody out there? ;-)
[16:45:07] <fingolfin> hi ryan
[16:45:08] <fingolfin> sorry
[16:45:20] <fingolfin> I was teaching math for the past 1.5 hours
[16:45:23] <Colourless> :)
[16:45:37] <Colourless> sounds like fun :)
[16:45:41] <fingolfin> I am sad to have neglected your for so long, can you forgive me one more time?
[16:45:47] <Colourless> no :)
[16:45:53] <fingolfin> aaarrrggghh
[16:45:55] <fingolfin> :(
[16:46:01] <fingolfin> well, fun... hmm
[16:46:22] <fingolfin> this girl (8th grade) has to do stuff like binomials, and expanding/collecting terms in sums etc.
[16:46:41] <fingolfin> sheīs not that good (otherwise she wouldnīt get additional teaching from me, right? :)
[16:47:01] <fingolfin> but at least she tries and shows effort. anyway
[16:47:03] <Colourless> I would assume so
[16:47:09] <fingolfin> I just was informed she has an exam on friday ;)
[16:47:49] <fingolfin> "since when do you know about this?" - "since this week" ... hmm normally, you are informed in advance at least 14 days over here... but well
[16:47:57] <fingolfin> better than last time, anyway
[16:48:09] <fingolfin> "I am going to write a test tomorrow" - "Oh, good that you tell me today"
[16:48:16] <fingolfin> =)
[16:48:23] <Colourless> heh
[16:48:30] <fingolfin> now, how is your day? ;)
[16:48:54] <Colourless> pretty uneventful :)
[16:49:03] <Colourless> most of my days are though :)
[16:53:46] <fingolfin> oh, come on, nothing? what did you have for lunch? ;)
[16:54:00] <Colourless> nothing :)
[16:54:08] * fingolfin rolls his eyes
[16:54:14] <Colourless> i wasn't up for lunch :)
[17:12:18] <fingolfin> so... what will you have for dinner?
[17:13:19] <Colourless> cabbage rolls
[17:15:09] <fingolfin> ohhh "Kohlrouladen" I assume
[17:15:32] <fingolfin> you take cabbage, and roll it around minced meat?
[17:15:56] <Colourless> kind of
[17:16:06] <Colourless> my grandmother makes them
[17:16:17] <fingolfin> well, I was speaking roughly. I discovcered that it is nto that easy to discuss about food in a multi-national setup
[17:16:37] <fingolfin> cause every country, even every person prepares food slightly or completly differently ;)
[17:16:50] <Colourless> yeah
[17:17:11] <fingolfin> well, yeah, my grandma used to make them, but now she rarely cooks herself... luckily, my mom knows how to prepate delicious "Kohlrouladen"
[17:17:17] <fingolfin> =)
[17:17:32] <fingolfin> well, there you see! and you tell me nothing would happen in your days!
[17:17:55] <fingolfin> this guy is going to eat cabbage rolls, but he dare tell me nothing fancy is going on°!
[17:17:55] <Colourless> no, i didn't say that, i said they were uneventful, as in, nothing interesting happened :)
[17:18:03] <Colourless> heh
[17:18:25] <fingolfin> so... anything else you left out? :)
[17:18:57] <fingolfin> like... who is coming to dinner? maybe Paul Allen will drop in? Or the pope? maybe your neighbors? your grandma? nobody?
[17:19:28] <Colourless> well I did move some barkchips from the backyard to the front yard.
[17:21:07] <fingolfin> WOA! *exciting*
[17:21:27] <fingolfin> Kefka, chimera|wookin: did you hear *that*?
[17:21:57] <Colourless> yeah, absolutely thrilling :)
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[17:35:25] <wjp> hi
[17:35:30] <Colourless> hi
[17:39:57] <fingolfin> hi
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[18:00:48] <EazyCheez> hellew
[18:01:22] <fingolfin> lo
[18:01:32] <Colourless> hi
[18:03:13] <EazyCheez> how's mah bug doin? ;)
[18:04:32] <wjp> hi
[18:06:51] <fingolfin> wjp: hei, werenīt there reports on wrong heads in the BeOS version some time ago?
[18:07:01] <fingolfin> wjp: cause I just got something like this reported for the MacOS version
[18:08:09] <wjp> yeah
[18:08:34] <wjp> I don't think I recently tried paperdolls in BeOS, though
[18:09:03] <wjp> what exactly was the report you got?
[18:12:35] <fingolfin> " The paper doll inventories and the r status line menu all have the head and body of the female blond avatar. This doesn't appear to cause a system crash now, but I haven't run the game for more than 5 minutes at a time or so."
[18:12:53] <wjp> that's a different one, I think
[18:12:57] <fingolfin> ok
[18:13:04] <fingolfin> it works fine for me, though, weird
[18:13:11] <wjp> the thing reported for BeOS was that the heads in the paperdolls were entirely missing
[18:14:13] <fingolfin> hm weird
[18:14:41] <fingolfin> BTW, how about releasing monthly? and with better preparation next time (e.g. checking that NEWS etc. is up-to-date ;)
[18:15:12] <wjp> we could just release every... say... first friday every month
[18:15:22] <wjp> with a more or less fixed schedule the week before that
[18:18:43] <fingolfin> that would be nice
[18:19:07] <fingolfin> though maybe we shouldnīt start that scheme this month ;)
[18:19:15] <wjp> :-)
[18:19:18] <Colourless> heh
[18:19:20] <wjp> last friday of the month then :-)
[18:20:23] <fingolfin> well I only meant since our last realease is only 1.5 weeks ago; and not many changes have accumulated, right?
[18:20:31] <wjp> hardly any
[18:20:42] <fingolfin> yeah
[18:20:50] <wjp> speaking of changes... I haven't updated the homepage in a while
[18:29:26] <EazyCheez> ok, I just decided hell, why not do the Silver Seed while I'm waiting :)
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[18:42:45] <wjp> bye
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[19:22:48] <wjp> Fingolfin: config.guess and config.sub are autogenerated by autogen.sh, so I guess the way to keep these current is to force Jeff to upgrade his version of libtool :-)
[19:23:00] <Fingolfin> wjp: well
[19:23:03] <wjp> (or maybe autoconf, not sure)
[19:23:19] <wjp> ...or we could avoid regenerating them
[19:23:19] <Fingolfin> autoconf is most important here
[19:23:31] <Fingolfin> and I though about putting copies into CVS
[19:24:59] <Fingolfin> I mean, many projects do that, why not we?
[19:27:12] <wjp> because it means we have to keep them up-to-date manually?
[19:28:08] <chimera|wookin> hi!
[19:28:10] <Fingolfin> ?
[19:28:21] <Fingolfin> wjp: autoconf is not updated *that* often
[19:28:25] <wjp> true :-)
[19:28:30] <wjp> hi
[19:28:32] <Fingolfin> wjp: OTOH, it is almost never upgraded on Jeffīs system it seems ;)
[19:29:03] <wjp> :-)
[19:32:57] <Fingolfin> oh, and I see that config.* *is* already in CVS
[19:33:24] <wjp> so we just need to stop deleting them?
[19:33:37] <wjp> (and hope whatever program generates them is smart enough to keep a newer version)
[19:33:45] <Fingolfin> wjp: well, I am working on that stuff ATM
[19:33:53] <Fingolfin> I will check it in soon, then maybe you can test it?
[19:34:01] <wjp> sure
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[19:41:09] <wjp> hi
[19:41:15] <x-bow> lo
[19:41:15] <Fingolfin> hi
[19:43:47] <x-bow> i'm putting together a guide to 'modifying' exult savegame files and was wondering if anyone can reccomend a decent hex editor?
[19:45:02] <wjp> for what OS?
[19:45:05] <chimera|wookin> yes! an exult cheat util!
[19:45:11] <chimera|wookin> I like 'biew'
[19:45:13] <chimera|wookin> (apt-get install biew)
[19:45:17] * Fingolfin rolls his eyes
[19:45:18] <chimera|wookin> it's like hiew for DOS hehe
[19:45:19] <x-bow> win 2k
[19:45:23] <wjp> hiew is nice
[19:45:29] <Fingolfin> what exactly would it be able to do that you cannot do with the built in cheat tools?
[19:45:38] <chimera|wookin> Fingolfin: now now.. no need to get ruffled.. hehe
[19:46:28] <x-bow> strictly a DIY guide for now until i can be bothered coding something :)
[19:47:15] <Fingolfin> chimera|wookin: ?!? ruffled? I am just curious
[19:47:20] <x-bow> By definition it won't be able to do more than the built in tools but you have to admit the cheat menu is a tad klunky
[19:47:43] <Fingolfin> x-bow: hm, how about spending the effort on improving the built in cheat menu then? ;)
[19:48:07] <x-bow> i have absolutely no c skills whatsoever :)
[19:48:25] <x-bow> strictly java (for now)
[19:52:11] <Fingolfin> wjp: can you try cvs?
[19:52:18] <wjp> just doing that now
[19:52:27] <Fingolfin> wjp: if possible maybe with a fresh checkout... that is waht I will try now myself ;)
[19:53:22] <wjp> fresh checkout? sure, why not
[19:55:26] <Fingolfin> just to make sure no old stuff is layig around
[19:55:35] <Fingolfin> only doing ./autogen.sh ; ./configure, nothing else
[19:55:52] <wjp> that went ok
[19:56:02] <Fingolfin> well, and then make of course ;)
[19:56:09] <wjp> of course :-)
[19:56:29] <Fingolfin> btw with Automake 2.52, you get this error during autogen.sh:
[19:56:31] <Fingolfin> configure.in:110: warning: AC_PROG_LEX invoked multiple times
[19:56:45] <Fingolfin> this is a known problem, and harmless
[19:56:57] <Fingolfin> just FYI if you ever upgrade ;)
[19:57:21] <wjp> gcc: ../../exult/tools/uccparse.c: No such file or directory
[19:58:19] <wjp> hmm... that's not the right directory
[19:58:37] <wjp> I'm building from outside the source dir, btw
[20:00:24] <Fingolfin> hm
[20:00:33] <wjp> I wonder what triggered that
[20:00:44] <wjp> and when it was triggered
[20:00:44] <Fingolfin> I didnīt touch that stuff at all i think
[20:01:09] <wjp> this is stupid:
[20:01:13] <wjp> uccparse.o: ucclex.c uccparse.c
[20:01:13] <wjp> $(COMPILE) -o $@ -c $(srcdir)/uccparse.c
[20:01:22] <wjp> uccparse.c _isn't_ in the source dir, it's generated
[20:01:33] * wjp checks the logs for that file :-)
[20:02:55] <wjp> hmm... funny... I inserted that myself when adding support for building from another dir.
[20:03:02] <wjp> (in march)
[20:03:09] <Fingolfin> muwahahah ;)
[20:03:32] <wjp> so it may be correct after all...
[20:04:21] <wjp> hmm
[20:06:14] <wjp> I still have a working 'remote' build on my univ. account.. let's see where uccparse.c is there
[20:06:45] <wjp> funny... it's in the srcdir there
[20:13:15] <wjp> same thing for the flex/bison-generated files in the usecode/compiler dir
[20:13:24] <wjp> they are now outside the srcdir but used to be in there
[20:19:16] <wjp> hmm, I think we're doing too much manually there; automake should be able to process .y and .l files itself
[20:22:32] <wjp> fixed
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[20:23:46] <Fingolfin> good to hear
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[20:25:12] <wjp> we were doing all the flex-ing and bison-ing ourselves... that's just asking for trouble :-)
[20:26:32] <Kefka> i hate dealing with immature 14 year old lamers..
[20:26:58] <wjp> any 14 year old lamer we know?
[20:27:10] <Kefka> no.. my friend's brother
[20:27:32] <Kefka> he's been told not to use his brother's computer, yet he persists
[20:27:45] <Kefka> then tried to make it sound like his brother is the bad guy
[20:27:59] <Kefka> and gives stupid stupid reasons..
[20:28:28] <wjp> bah
[20:28:40] <Fingolfin> he
[20:28:51] <Kefka> he's not worth my time or enery
[20:28:57] <Fingolfin> too many netsplits today :/
[20:28:58] <Kefka> s/enery energy
[20:30:09] <Kefka> the funny this is
[20:30:27] <Kefka> he's bragging on how he gets around his brother's BIOS password and screen saver password
[20:30:36] <Kefka> and i am logging the whole thing
[20:30:49] <wjp> sigh...
[20:31:07] <wjp> funny how they always want to brag about things :-)
[20:31:44] <Kefka> yeah.. "i am so l33t, i get around the ss password by changing it to 60 minutes when my brother isn't looking!!"
[20:32:26] <Kefka> thank god he doesn't know vb or javascript
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[20:34:15] * Fingolfin rolls his eyes
[20:34:16] <Fingolfin> jeff!
[20:34:26] <freedman> Hi! I've a question.
[20:34:47] <Kefka> freedman: have you read the FAQ first?
[20:34:50] <Kefka> :)
[20:34:53] <wjp> hi Jeff
[20:34:55] <wjp> Kefka: ;-)
[20:35:02] <freedman> :-) Hi wjp, Kefka
[20:35:15] <freedman> Where'd all those bugs come from??
[20:35:23] <Fingolfin> erhm
[20:35:27] * Fingolfin looks innocently
[20:35:31] <wjp> most from Dominik, it seems :-)
[20:35:34] <freedman> (Actually, I know the answer: Dominik is playing again.)
[20:35:47] <Fingolfin> oh, I was thinking you looked for the cause ;)
[20:36:11] <freedman> Some other time. I'm busy adding new bugs.
[20:36:53] <wjp> adding?
[20:37:06] <freedman> Max, a question: You added 'smooth walking' just before the release. It looks good; but I'm wondering about having the 'stand' frame at both the beginning and end.
[20:37:11] <freedman> Is that intentional?
[20:37:43] <Fingolfin> well
[20:37:49] <freedman> wjp: Working on the 'find_spot()' method. Finally got it working last night with 'path_run_usecode()'.
[20:38:09] <Fingolfin> not looking at the code right now, but IIRC: it uses the array entry 0 for standing; and 1 to n for walking
[20:38:28] <Fingolfin> freedman: I only hacked up the existing code, using a quick&dirty approach
[20:38:43] <Fingolfin> freedman: I need to look at it again to tell you exactly, though ;)
[20:38:49] <freedman> Oops. I think you're right. Pretty embarrassing, since I wrote it originally.
[20:39:33] <freedman> ...Looking up the code. Yes, you're right.
[20:40:00] <freedman> I was puzzled, because the walking looked good.
[20:40:41] * Fingolfin nods
[20:41:44] <freedman> I think I've finally figured out the jerkiness, but it's from old code.
[20:42:23] <wjp> oh no... another crash in sew_schedule
[20:42:36] <freedman> Arggghhhhhhhhh!!!!
[20:42:49] <freedman> What now?
[20:42:55] <wjp> checking...
[20:43:12] <Fingolfin> we do have many bugs, boy ;)
[20:43:16] <wjp> case sew_clothes:
[20:43:17] <wjp> {
[20:43:17] <wjp> int dir = npc->get_direction(cloth);
[20:43:20] <wjp> cloth == 0 -> crash
[20:43:58] <freedman> Heh. Just a few days ago, I fixed a bug where cloth was deleted but not set to 0. Maybe this is the result:-)
[20:44:18] <Fingolfin> I think we should use many many more asserts. in fact, in my own code I write all with ASSERTs from the start, helps to make code more stabl
[20:44:38] <wjp> speaking of asserts... maybe we should sprinkle some through the save & load code...
[20:44:50] <Fingolfin> freedman use FORGET_OBJECT instead of delete, please ;) that help prevent such problems
[20:44:54] <wjp> might help with catching memory corruption bugs closer to the source
[20:45:04] <Fingolfin> and we might want to add our own ASSERT macro
[20:45:10] <freedman> True.
[20:45:11] <Fingolfin> wjp: yeah
[20:45:17] <wjp> uh oh
[20:45:24] <wjp> there are 20 weavers in the weaver shop
[20:45:30] <freedman> ???
[20:45:31] <wjp> (at least)
[20:45:43] <wjp> how very interesting
[20:45:48] <Fingolfin> lol
[20:46:04] <freedman> Max: We might also always want to fill deleted memory when in DEBUG. There's already code there, but it's normally off.
[20:46:56] <wjp> all npcs >= 53 are Gaye (the weaver)
[20:47:27] <freedman> Sounds similar to some other corrupted games. Wish I know when this happens.
[20:47:59] <wjp> the business schedules on most npcs seem to be correct, though
[20:48:45] <freedman> They're in a different file (schedules.dat?)
[20:49:06] <freedman> It's npcs.dat that seems to get corrupted the most.
[20:49:07] <wjp> I wonder why they all go to the weaver's shop, though
[20:49:38] <freedman> Sounds like a couple other examples where npc.dat had the same NPC repeated to the end.
[20:50:13] <wjp> does the loading code repeat npc's if it reaches EOF or anything?
[20:51:30] <freedman> It shouldn't...
[20:52:14] <freedman> Wait... there's an exception catcher at the top level. It may be that errors are getting ignored.
[20:52:33] <wjp> checking size of npc.dat in gamedat...
[20:52:35] <freedman> I've been wanting to rewrite the constructors in actorio.cc as "read()" methods.
[20:53:39] <wjp> it's 44515 bytes; any idea if that's ok?
[20:54:40] <wjp> is npc.dat fixed length?
[20:55:06] <freedman> No. It also has the objects the NPC's own.
[20:55:20] <wjp> ok, the general size is ok then
[20:56:01] <wjp> this savegame is the one attached to the "Save Game Crashes" bug, btw
[20:56:47] <freedman> Okay. I'd guess that it's corrupted, but haven't looked yet.
[20:58:02] <freedman> What's strange is that I've got dozens of savegames at home, and have >never< had one corrupted.
[20:58:14] <wjp> same here
[20:58:39] <chimera|wookin> freedman!!
[20:58:44] <wjp> but hundreds or users are more likely to get it than just us
[20:58:53] <wjp> after all, it doesn't seem to be _that_ common
[20:59:06] <freedman> Hi!
[20:59:37] <freedman> Maybe there's a write error, and we're not catching it properly.
[21:00:06] <wjp> possible... it is kind of a strange bug... not many things can cause this kind of behaviour
[21:00:39] <freedman> I'd blame Windows, but that's what Ryan uses; and he's never reported it.
[21:03:19] <wjp> where is the code that writes npc.dat? (apart from actorio.cc, I mean)
[21:03:46] <freedman> It's called from readnpcs.cc, I think.
[21:05:36] <freedman> On another topic: I finally finished "Ultima: Runes of Virtue" last night:-)
[21:05:47] <wjp> gameboy?
[21:05:53] <freedman> Yep.
[21:06:11] <freedman> Found a used cartridge at the local store.
[21:06:21] <freedman> Have you played it?
[21:06:23] <Fingolfin> hehe
[21:06:26] <wjp> no
[21:06:36] <Fingolfin> I once had U7 running on a SNES emulator ;)
[21:06:42] <freedman> It's kind of like Ultima9 without the 3D.
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[21:07:25] <West> yo
[21:07:26] <freedman> :-) My daughter plays the "Sailor Moon" RPG with SNES
[21:07:54] <wjp> hi
[21:08:07] <West> hey have you guys fixed the game stopping bug in the dream realm for SI yet?
[21:08:16] <wjp> not AFAIK
[21:08:19] <wjp> did we?
[21:08:37] <freedman> Not I.
[21:09:25] <Fingolfin> donīt even look at me, I had no chance to touch exult at all during the last days
[21:09:32] <freedman> Haven't some players gotten past that point? Or did they have to cheat?
[21:10:32] <West> well I've managed to teleport past being knocked out in the swamp
[21:10:45] <West> but even then you have to cheat yet again to get the serpent necklace from the cheat island
[21:10:52] <West> or else you can't finish the game
[21:13:20] <freedman> I'll try to look at it tonight.
[21:14:40] <West> what would cause an error like that anyway?
[21:15:39] <wjp> what was that bug again?
[21:16:22] <wjp> the crash when you return the crystal to Syranush?
[21:16:29] <wjp> (or whatever her name is)
[21:16:36] <West> after you get the dream crystal in the dream realm and take it to that one gal up in the cabin, she gives her whole speech thing with Eldin
[21:16:36] <West> yeah
[21:17:11] <freedman> Fortunately, crashes are usually the easiest bugs to fix.
[21:17:29] <wjp> yes, they tend to show you exactly where they're caused :-)
[21:17:37] <West> heh
[21:17:43] <wjp> unlike.. say... savegame corruption bugs :/
[21:17:43] <West> well nifty
[21:18:43] <West> so I'll be able to get back underway in SI again as soon as you get the bug fixed ? :^)
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[21:19:52] <wjp> dat = 0x8571048 "Gaye\210jW\bājW\b8kW\bðZW\bā'R\b 'R\b /R\bā.R\b"
[21:20:07] <wjp> interesting string :-)
[21:21:03] <wjp> I wish I had a debugging session right before this game was first saved...
[21:21:29] <West> Santo Merde
[21:22:21] <West> AHH the old Star Trek is so bad...
[21:22:23] <West> *sigh*
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[21:23:47] <PoorCNewb> Hola
[21:24:22] <wjp> hi
[21:24:49] <PoorCNewb> Long time no see (literally) you're usually away for some reason
[21:25:21] <PoorCNewb> For the last 4 days
[21:26:00] <chimera|wookin> PoorCNewb: he was probably just pretending to be away when you popped into the channel :)
[21:26:08] <wjp> :-)
[21:26:09] <chimera|wookin> just kidding hehe
[21:26:16] <PoorCNewb> I'm not that annoying
[21:26:24] <PoorCNewb> :/ lol
[21:27:05] <Fingolfin> oh my
[21:27:10] <Fingolfin> we all have a real life (tm), too
[21:27:19] <Fingolfin> we do not only live for this channel & exult, you know
[21:27:29] * chimera|wookin gives Fingolfin a confused look
[21:27:32] <Kefka> we don't?
[21:27:34] <Kefka> :)
[21:27:52] <PoorCNewb> U sure?
[21:28:02] <wjp> I have a life? heh, didn't know that :-)
[21:28:03] <PoorCNewb> :P
[21:28:13] <Fingolfin> well, maybe chimera|wookin, Kefka and PoorCNewb do
[21:28:23] <Fingolfin> but they are all not developers of exult, AFAIK ;)
[21:28:28] <Kefka> hahah
[21:28:59] <Kefka> we the honorary members of the peanut gallery
[21:28:59] <chimera|wookin> you mean that none of us are developers of exult?
[21:29:02] <Fingolfin> boy, when did it get late autumn over here? last week it was hot, now I am freezing
[21:29:09] <chimera|wookin> after all the time I've spent keeping you company in this channel!! hehe
[21:29:21] <Fingolfin> chimera|wookin: oh well, let me rephrase that to "coder" ;)
[21:29:41] <chimera|wookin> hehe..
[21:29:43] <chimera|wookin> hey I'm a coder
[21:30:05] <chimera|wookin> I haven't exactly contributed any code to exult hehe
[21:30:12] <chimera|wookin> except for a small bug fix
[21:30:25] <Kefka> i can write a Hello World program as well as the next guy!!
[21:30:32] <PoorCNewb> Yeah, me too!
[21:32:01] <PoorCNewb> No, don't get me wrong, I couldn't code a .bmp to show up on a screen let alone code anything in Exult
[21:32:15] <PoorCNewb> I'm a reaaaaaaaaaal Newb
[21:32:37] <chimera|wookin> with SDL, displaying a BMP is relatively easy
[21:32:44] <chimera|wookin> even a poor c newb such as yourself could do it
[21:32:49] <PoorCNewb> I don't know how to use SDL!
[21:32:50] <chimera|wookin> what?!
[21:32:56] * chimera|wookin cuffs PoorCNewb on the back of his head
[21:33:00] <chimera|wookin> Get wookin' boy!
[21:33:04] <PoorCNewb> Aww CRIMENY!
[21:33:07] <chimera|wookin> hehe
[21:33:20] <PoorCNewb> God allmight, don't hit me!
[21:33:32] <PoorCNewb> Aww, don't step on me either
[21:33:42] * chimera|wookin cracks PoorCNewb's sorry pate like a coconut
[21:33:46] <chimera|wookin> ok... I must leave now
[21:33:53] <chimera|wookin> talk to you later
[21:33:56] <PoorCNewb> Oh well, cya
[21:35:20] <wjp> bye
[21:36:05] <wjp> ok... it looks like all the npcs without a schedule at the current time are put in the weaver's shop
[21:36:14] <wjp> kind of makes sense really
[21:36:55] <freedman> Hmm....
[21:37:23] <Kefka> back in a couple
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[21:37:31] <PoorCNewb> Man, okay, I'm really gonna try to get this exult stuff in my head
[21:37:48] <PoorCNewb> I can at least see the structure of it
[21:37:59] <PoorCNewb> No, not that it's shaped like a topple tower
[21:38:32] <PoorCNewb> But the different functions, where would I look to know what they mean?
[21:38:45] <PoorCNewb> Like in the actors.cc
[21:39:25] <wjp> we don't have many comments, I'm afraid
[21:39:27] <freedman> Actors.h?
[21:39:51] <freedman> You should probably start with gamewin.h. That controls most everything.
[21:39:55] <PoorCNewb> And other H files it "includes"?
[21:40:13] <PoorCNewb> Well I had that idea already
[21:40:26] <PoorCNewb> To look in the H files I mean
[21:40:27] <PoorCNewb> K
[21:40:34] <wjp> most .h files 'describe' the corresponding .cc files
[21:41:39] <PoorCNewb> I can see several things different in C than C++ already
[21:41:52] <PoorCNewb> the ::, that symbols what?
[21:41:56] <wjp> classes are one thing
[21:41:56] <PoorCNewb> ::
[21:42:04] <PoorCNewb> Yeah, and objects or something
[21:42:10] <wjp> :: indicates a members of a class or namespace
[21:42:15] <wjp> s/members/member/
[21:42:24] <PoorCNewb> I'd hate to see Aurelian here now, I haven't read that on-line book he sent me
[21:42:30] <PoorCNewb> on c++
[21:42:34] <PoorCNewb> He'd be pissed at me
[21:43:00] <wjp> OO takes some getting used to if you've never used it before
[21:43:49] <freedman> You probably should read a little about the concepts before trying to figure out the Exult code.
[21:43:56] <PoorCNewb> Yeah, "learning C" will get you the general idea of formats and command lines in C++
[21:44:07] <PoorCNewb> But other than that, it wouldn't help too much, would it?
[21:44:15] <PoorCNewb> I'm learning C first, but.....
[21:44:16] <freedman> Isn't there a "learning C++"?
[21:44:56] <PoorCNewb> Yep, I got tons of C++ tutorials like I have tons of bookmarked C tutorials
[21:46:03] <PoorCNewb> And that C++ book Aurelian sent m
[21:46:04] <PoorCNewb> me
[21:47:24] <freedman> Speaking of C++... I've got a bug to concentrate on here at work.
[21:47:37] <freedman> I'll check back in a little while.
[21:47:42] <PoorCNewb> Yeah, cya
[21:47:47] <wjp> bye
[21:48:54] <PoorCNewb> Gravy, I'll get on this right away
[21:50:06] <PoorCNewb> See you later wjp
[21:50:19] <wjp> bye
[21:50:37] <-- PoorCNewb has left #exult
[21:52:51] --> Kefka has joined #exult
[22:18:16] <Kefka> whoa
[22:18:22] <Kefka> multiplayer Underworld 1 and 2
[22:19:02] --> PoorCNewb has joined #exult
[22:19:12] <wjp> what? where?
[22:19:19] <PoorCNewb> Oh no, everyone's gonna leave the room now
[22:19:40] <wjp> well... I'm going to leave soon, yes :-)
[22:20:16] <wjp> now, in fact ;-)
[22:20:20] <Fingolfin> hehe
[22:20:22] <Fingolfin> cya willem
[22:20:24] <wjp> g'night
[22:20:25] <Kefka> er
[22:20:29] <Kefka> ok night
[22:20:30] <PoorCNewb> Adios
[22:20:33] <-- wjp has left IRC ([x]chat)
[22:20:39] <Kefka> http://www.twistsoft.co.uk/
[22:20:41] <Kefka> was that link
[22:20:43] <Kefka> oh well
[22:21:04] <PoorCNewb> Something here is odd, I got Binary and Development Runtimes of SDL
[22:21:15] <PoorCNewb> And a sourcecode, which do I want?
[22:21:55] <Fingolfin> depends on what you want to do ;)
[22:22:00] <PoorCNewb> I grabbed an "Intro to SDL development too.
[22:22:18] <PoorCNewb> I got MinGW, so I got the Development Runtime for MinGW
[22:32:01] --> Flikm has joined #exult
[22:32:16] <PoorCNewb> Heh, don't go here, they're a bunch of rabid dogs!
[22:32:27] <Flikm> lol
[22:32:31] <Flikm> im here!!!
[22:32:42] <PoorCNewb> They bite, run for your lives
[22:32:44] <PoorCNewb> !!
[22:32:52] <PoorCNewb> Life, oops!
[22:33:03] <Flikm> lol
[22:33:37] <PoorCNewb> Well, these guys are hard at work coding out the bugs, better leave 'em alone
[22:33:49] <Flikm> lol
[22:33:54] <Flikm> exultbot: hi
[22:33:54] <exultbot> Hi Flikm!
[22:34:00] <Flikm> lol
[22:34:11] <Flikm> exultbot: stupid bot
[22:34:21] <Flikm> hehe
[22:34:25] <Flikm> lmao
[22:34:27] <Flikm> lmfao
[22:35:12] <Fingolfin> donīt insult that bot, dude!
[22:35:17] * Fingolfin pats exultbotīs head reassuringly
[22:35:21] <Flikm> lol
[22:35:58] <Flikm> exultbot: sup?
[22:37:17] <PoorCNewb> Does it bite
[22:37:18] <PoorCNewb> ?
[22:37:27] <Flikm> lol
[22:37:32] <Flikm> no see?
[22:37:43] * Flikm pets exultbot
[22:39:22] <Flikm> exultbot: go away
[22:39:53] <PoorCNewb> That's sad, that's one stupid bot
[22:40:36] <Flikm> lol
[22:40:42] <Flikm> way too tru
[22:40:53] <Fingolfin> phew
[22:41:17] <Fingolfin> think Ultima-like, dude!
[22:41:20] <Fingolfin> ?name
[22:41:20] <exultbot> Greetings Avatar. I am called Exultbot.
[22:41:33] <Fingolfin> now how does it continue, eh?
[22:41:39] <PoorCNewb> Carpal tunnel syndrom in your wrists already? Get back to work!!
[22:41:43] <PoorCNewb> ?job
[22:41:43] <exultbot> My job is to write down everything you say.
[22:41:54] <Fingolfin> ...and...?
[22:41:55] <Fingolfin> :)
[22:42:04] <PoorCNewb> ?sky
[22:42:20] <PoorCNewb> Hmm, doesn't take random topics too good still
[22:42:37] <Flikm> ?wasssup!?!?!?!??!!
[22:42:38] <Flikm> lol
[22:42:40] <PoorCNewb> ?health
[22:42:48] <Kefka> ?join
[22:42:48] <exultbot> I would be honored to join thee, Avatar, but I'm already in #exult's party.
[22:42:51] <Flikm> ?die!!!!!!
[22:43:01] <Kefka> heh
[22:43:01] <PoorCNewb> I'm trying to rememberall those dumb topic from the ultima games
[22:43:05] <PoorCNewb> ?Batlin
[22:43:05] <Flikm> ?im gonna kill ur ass
[22:43:22] <PoorCNewb> ?Blackthorn
[22:43:25] <PoorCNewb> ?jump
[22:43:27] <PoorCNewb> ?yell
[22:43:37] <Flikm> ?die!!!!
[22:43:39] <PoorCNewb> ?die
[22:43:43] <PoorCNewb> ?run
[22:43:46] <Fingolfin> you are bad & boring, guys
[22:43:54] <PoorCNewb> I got nothin'
[22:44:00] <PoorCNewb> This bot's the one that's stupid
[22:44:19] <PoorCNewb> We're just the peasants who don't know what to do
[22:44:36] <Fingolfin> PoorCNewb: come on, try to behave a bit. the bot at least has manners. he knows when to shut up
[22:44:47] <PoorCNewb> Yeah, C peasants
[22:45:06] <PoorCNewb> Ohhh, that was cheap as old socks
[22:45:21] <PoorCNewb> I'm just trying to see what the bot can do that's all
[22:46:18] <Flikm> i have consulted the eskimo programmer near the iceburg and he has told
[22:46:19] <Flikm> me that i should seek out a man by the name of Bill Gates and brutally
[22:46:19] <Flikm> mangle his body and spread his limbs and entrails about the Isle of
[22:46:19] <Flikm> Wight (is that how you spell it). I shall do his bidding emmidiately and
[22:46:19] <Flikm> efficiently.
[22:46:28] <Flikm> rotfl
[22:46:58] <PoorCNewb> Whaaaaat?
[22:47:43] <PoorCNewb> Ah well, I gotta go and nitpick bugs for Exult and see how much I can fix myself
[22:47:57] <PoorCNewb> Cya
[22:48:09] <-- PoorCNewb has left #exult
[22:48:29] <Flikm> cya
[22:48:31] <-- Flikm has left #exult
[22:49:07] <Kefka> Thank God..
[22:50:37] * Kefka sets mode +b *!*@*.ipt.aol.com
[22:51:41] <Fingolfin> :)
[22:52:20] <Fingolfin> ah no
[22:52:20] <Kefka> :)
[22:52:33] <Fingolfin> I will not be so quick in such harsh measures
[22:53:00] <Fingolfin> a) there may in fact be some intelligent AOL users and b) maybe we can teach them a bit... like how to be not rude
[22:53:04] <Fingolfin> netiquette
[22:54:10] <Kefka> i wonder if there is a web site dedicated to the do's and don'ts concerning netiquette
[23:10:44] --> Waz has joined #exult
[23:10:48] <Waz> ?logs
[23:10:48] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/exultlog.php3
[23:11:14] <Kefka> Waz: NO! don't read them
[23:11:22] <Kefka> you'll lose brain cells
[23:11:45] <Waz> oh.. i thought someone accidently said bad things about me in channel
[23:12:13] <Waz> its ok.. i'm drinking wine.. i'll lose the cells anyway
[23:12:17] <Waz> :)
[23:13:07] <Fingolfin> Waz: sadly, we didnīt say anything bad about you yet ;)
[23:13:16] <Fingolfin> Waz: please donīt give us reason to do so ;)
[23:13:25] <Waz> i'm not trying hard enough then...
[23:13:54] <Fingolfin> =)
[23:14:10] <Fingolfin> well, those AOLers were pretty good at annoying us, you might want to *NOT* copy them
[23:15:08] <freedman> ??
[23:15:15] <Waz> if i can figure out how to do it, would anyone object to me putting names to locations on the ultima map?
[23:15:34] <Fingolfin> no, do it
[23:15:46] <freedman> Nice
[23:15:57] <Fingolfin> if you get it done, make a patch, submit it, if it looks fine we put it into CVS and you get into the credits ;)
[23:16:01] <Waz> i was thinking, in the runic text, aboutve the map in the pretty yellow, put names of towns and other geographic s..
[23:16:17] <Fingolfin> statically?
[23:16:20] <Fingolfin> or as a roll-over?
[23:16:25] <Fingolfin> roll-over effect I mean
[23:16:39] <Waz> its someone elses idea.. but sence i supposidly have a degree in programming.. and C being my favorit.. i *should* be able to do this..
[23:16:41] <Fingolfin> that would be cool. Like if you move the mouse over trinsic and it says "trinisc"
[23:16:46] <Fingolfin> ;)
[23:17:00] <Waz> yes.. center justifieed above the map.
[23:17:11] <Fingolfin> that reminds me... we might want to make a "translation" cheat that displays all rune text using latin letters instead
[23:17:28] <freedman> That's an excellent idea.
[23:17:42] <Waz> i thinkit will not be hard as when the map is showing the game pauses.. so i would not have to worry about synchronising with the game
[23:17:59] <Waz> how about latin words, in runic font..
[23:18:00] <Waz> :)
[23:18:11] <Waz> to hard.. i couldn't read it
[23:18:42] <Fingolfin> he ;)
[23:19:16] <Fingolfin> Waz: basically, go for the code that shows the map... it has a loop that waits for a click in there
[23:19:32] <Fingolfin> Waz: now change it to wait for events in general, and intercept mouse moved events
[23:19:46] <Fingolfin> then somehow depending on where the mouse is, display some text (or erase old one)
[23:20:46] <Waz> i noticed
[23:21:11] <Waz> yeah.. thats what i'm thinking.. the hardest part fo rme i don't know the "internal" api for the game
[23:21:40] <Waz> i was going over the sdl docs, but the games seems to get them in exult.cc and them use exult code from there
[23:22:31] <Waz> but the code layout seems really nice.. well designed..
[23:23:05] <Waz> its just a huge learning curve for me.. i don't know where anything is.. :)
[23:23:26] <Fingolfin> you can always ask here if you donīt understand something, and weīll help you if we can (have time that is ;)
[23:23:39] <freedman> If we remember:-)
[23:23:46] <freedman> What platform are you on?
[23:24:49] <Waz> well luckly, my c++ book will help with the syntax, its just that , for example the Get_click(), i have to hunt thought the 100 other c files to find where the function is, to see what it dose.. thats the bitch i'm having.. :)
[23:25:02] <Waz> i have win98 and windows 2000.. i gots 2 boxes
[23:25:04] <Fingolfin> a good IDE helps here
[23:25:17] <Fingolfin> that thin is defined in exult.cc btw
[23:25:32] <Waz> i might use MSVC for editing and gcc(ming) for compileing
[23:25:39] <freedman> Yes; an IDE would make it easier to browse around. Even Emacs' "ctags" can be helpful there.
[23:26:57] <Waz> anyone use UltraEdit?
[23:27:15] <Waz> we have that at work.. the piddle ass developers use it..
[23:28:21] <freedman> Never heard of it.
[23:28:26] <Waz> no matter..
[23:29:47] <Waz> oh well.. of to cheat at starcraft
[23:30:03] <Waz> * single player, not multi
[23:30:12] <-- Waz has left IRC ()
[23:34:22] --> West has joined #exult
[23:54:33] <West> hey freedman
[23:54:36] <West> you fix that bug yet?
[23:56:50] <freedman> Yes. Been wasting time on Slashdot.