#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 5 Apr 2003 (GMT)

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[05:23:00] <Servus> detail textures!
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[05:30:10] <Servus> h'lo how goes it?
[05:30:19] <Yuv422> Hi Servus
[05:30:29] <Yuv422> good, and yourself?
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[05:41:07] <Servus> fine, not doing much, put some detail textures in my engine
[05:41:21] <Yuv422> any pics?
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[05:45:58] <Servus>
[05:51:07] <Yuv422> looking good
[05:58:58] <Servus> ty, still needs a zillion manhours of work :-)
[05:59:13] <Yuv422> I now what you mean. ;)
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[06:05:11] <Yuv422> hehe I just found half a tree in on the U6 map. :)
[06:11:46] <Servus> half a tree?
[06:12:04] <Yuv422> trees in U6 are four tiles big
[06:12:16] <Yuv422> this is the bottom two tiles of a tree.
[06:12:50] <Servus> thats good, video games always have such damn wimpy trees
[07:11:07] <ShadwChsr> hows your engine going servus?
[07:16:21] <Servus> ehh, alright ;-) i havent worked on it much at all this week
[07:16:32] <Servus> put in detail textures is all, really
[07:17:25] <ShadwChsr> any screens?
[07:17:44] <Yuv422>
[07:17:52] <ShadwChsr> thought so :)
[07:18:03] <ShadwChsr> not bad, not bad :)
[07:18:04] <Yuv422> ;)
[07:18:25] <ShadwChsr> Though, theres something with mapped terrain that just doesn't look right, I dunno what it is :)
[07:18:39] <ShadwChsr> probably just my imagination
[07:18:51] <Servus> heh yuv
[07:18:55] <ShadwChsr> Did you add bump mapping?
[07:19:15] <Servus> no, that's just a detail texture, but if i were to add bump mapping id use that same detail texture
[07:19:32] <Servus> i dont really see the point in bump mapping the ground tho...
[07:19:54] <ShadwChsr> Yeah, it was just in that closeup screenshot kind of looked like it was
[07:20:03] <ShadwChsr> Just the way the texture is, I guess :)
[07:20:47] <ShadwChsr> I'm thinking about upgrading my terrain to 3d(ish)
[07:21:00] <ShadwChsr> In the good old UO/Simcity fashion
[07:21:09] <Servus> actually the ground you see is three textures
[07:21:13] <Servus> it will be at least four textures when im done
[07:21:14] <ShadwChsr> where you still have "cells" (tiles), but they have Z coordinates
[07:21:25] <Servus> like my first engine?
[07:21:51] <ShadwChsr> got any screenshots of it?
[07:22:08] <Servus>
[07:22:36] <ShadwChsr> hmmm maybe, hard to tell :)
[07:22:38] <Servus> thats a completely tile-based system
[07:22:41] <Servus> let me edit it..
[07:23:30] <ShadwChsr> My only problem right now is how to define the textures
[07:23:50] <ShadwChsr> Should I just say forget it and use square textures like a normal person, or is there any way I can map isometric tiles to them?
[07:26:34] <Servus>
[07:26:54] <Servus> the things on the right are just a few of the tiles used in the map
[07:27:37] <Servus> things on the left*
[07:27:52] <ShadwChsr> yeah.. not like that tho
[07:27:53] <ShadwChsr> :)
[07:28:07] <Servus> why not?
[07:28:21] <Servus> it's a completely tile-based, completely 3d system
[07:28:27] <ShadwChsr> Because I'm not going 100% 3d
[07:28:42] <Servus> you cant go half-way 3d, its too much work ;)
[07:30:01] <ShadwChsr> sure I can :)
[07:30:17] <Servus> are you gonna take my advice? :-)
[07:30:25] <Servus> you will be eating those words :>
[07:30:32] <ShadwChsr> If UO can do it with an engine built in 1996, why cant I? :-)
[07:30:44] <ShadwChsr> Heck, SimCity 2000 did it.. that was in, what, 94?
[07:30:44] <ShadwChsr> :)
[07:30:46] <Servus> because that's 2.05D :-)
[07:30:54] <ShadwChsr> thats what I want :)
[07:31:00] <Servus> do it in 3d.
[07:31:15] <ShadwChsr> The polygons will be defined as 3d
[07:31:16] <ShadwChsr> :)
[07:31:19] <Servus> they wrote all the texture-stretching functions in assembly:)
[07:31:25] <ShadwChsr> Its just the stuff on top will still be sprites
[07:31:33] <Servus> ok, consider engine01 with the camera fixed the way i showed it
[07:31:44] <Servus> sprites ick!
[07:32:09] <ShadwChsr> Unless you have a team of free 3d artists at my disposal, I'll use what I have :-)
[07:32:24] <ShadwChsr> Most games spend tens of thousands of dollars on things like Granny3D
[07:32:25] <Servus> 3d models are piss easy :-p
[07:32:41] <ShadwChsr> I don't have that luxury, and I don't want to spend the next century building an bone animation system ;P
[07:32:46] <Servus> those games are made by _corporations_, and corporations piss money into gutter stormdrains :-)
[07:32:57] <ShadwChsr> they also have 20 programmers ;P
[07:33:03] <ShadwChsr> I want to RELEASE a game
[07:33:05] <ShadwChsr> you know, done :)
[07:33:13] <Servus> youre using direct3d -- you have 5,000 programmers.
[07:33:23] <Servus> direct3d has built-in support for loading 3d models with skeletons
[07:33:29] <ShadwChsr> Exult did it, but (almost) every other indie game has failed because they say they can do everything
[07:33:36] <ShadwChsr> I dont care I have stupid dumb sprite graphics
[07:33:46] <ShadwChsr> At least I'm being reasonable :-)
[07:33:51] <Servus> exult is 2d :-)
[07:34:01] <Servus> sprites are no problem
[07:34:26] <ShadwChsr> I sure wish I could say I want 10,000 game models and 500 animations and multitexturing and and and and
[07:34:26] <ShadwChsr> :)
[07:34:35] <Servus> i just said "sprites ick", not that i was gonna kill you for using sprites
[07:34:48] <ShadwChsr> :)
[07:34:54] <ShadwChsr> It's just frustrating :)
[07:35:08] <ShadwChsr> Everyone thinks I'm f'ing shoveling manure when I mention I'm making a 2D game :-)
[07:35:25] <Servus> aww jeez it's sleetsnowing
[07:35:38] <Servus> because you dont _want_ to make a 2d game, that's why
[07:35:49] <ShadwChsr> I do ;)
[07:35:52] <Servus> and i feel like im watching you shoot yourself in the foot
[07:36:10] <ShadwChsr> Yeah, I will but why not, it will be fun :)
[07:36:12] <Servus> you want something like ultima 8.5, right?
[07:36:18] <ShadwChsr> 8.5?
[07:36:25] <Servus> a little more advanced than pagan
[07:36:34] <ShadwChsr> more or less
[07:36:57] <ShadwChsr> I can display nice 3d terrain but having a player walk up slopes will be a bitch
[07:36:58] <ShadwChsr> :-)
[07:37:04] <Servus> why?
[07:37:14] <ShadwChsr> Because I haven't figured that part out yet :)
[07:37:18] <Servus> i could complete my 3d ultima7 port now
[07:37:36] <ShadwChsr> But I don't see why putting 4 vertices down with z coordinates is going to be real difficult :)
[07:37:40] <Servus> i have enough knowledge to make a good-looking tile based 3d terrain
[07:37:58] <ShadwChsr> I imagine you would just use two world transformation matrices, one for the terrain and one for the sprites
[07:38:10] <Servus> its not that hard
[07:38:21] <ShadwChsr> How is it shooting myself in the foot? :-)
[07:38:37] <Servus> youd use a "billboard" to represent sprites, and the sprites would be moving through 3d world space
[07:38:50] <Servus> you know what a billboard is in opengl terms? :-)
[07:38:58] <ShadwChsr> yeah
[07:39:03] <ShadwChsr> But it was buggy in D3D
[07:39:29] <ShadwChsr> Or it had some stupid limitation
[07:39:45] <ShadwChsr> So I just decided to program 2 triangle polygons that make up a rectangle for my sprites :)
[07:40:14] <ShadwChsr> and have a world matrix looking straight down, with the coordinate system transformed to be the same as the screen pixel size
[07:40:29] <Servus> whats buggy in d3d? billboards? billboards arent something defined by d3d or opengl :-)
[07:41:05] <Servus> billboards are a sprite that is always facing the camera, (parallax?), but its made up by a quad in real 3d world space
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[07:48:58] <Servus> wb
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[08:06:28] <Servus> well im outsa here, 'ta
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[09:03:11] <DarkeZzz> Hiya.
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[09:03:25] <Darke> Since I'm awake... *grin*
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[10:33:49] <Yuv422> hi Darke
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[11:25:57] <sbx> hi
[11:26:03] <Yuv422> hey
[11:26:38] <Yuv422> want to try out the new scaled nuvie?
[11:26:51] <sbx> hmm
[11:26:53] <sbx> yes
[11:27:03] <Yuv422> let me check in the changes
[11:33:09] <sbx> i have been looking at the u6 conversations still
[11:33:18] <sbx> you didnt happen to figure it all out in the meantime have you?
[11:33:34] <Yuv422> nope been busy with scaling
[11:33:41] <Yuv422> How's it going?
[11:34:09] <sbx> good that you didnt do it already because that might have meant wasted effort for me :)
[11:34:13] <sbx> its going ok
[11:34:30] <sbx> i figured out a lot more, even though i have no experience with this :)
[11:34:31] * Yuv422 is interested in sbx's findings.
[11:34:37] <sbx> but there is still more to find than not
[11:34:42] <sbx> ill send you updated notes
[11:34:52] <Yuv422> righto. thanks sbx
[11:39:43] <Yuv422> I found some Names ending with 0xf3
[11:39:50] <Yuv422> not 0xf1 :)
[11:39:57] <Yuv422> only two I think. IIRC
[11:39:59] <sbx> ok
[11:40:06] <sbx> some descriptions end with f3
[11:40:22] <Yuv422> hmm maybe that means no description?
[11:40:32] <sbx> it still shows them
[11:41:08] <sbx> 122 Gilron (an injured person in Cove)
[11:41:59] <Yuv422> that could be a bit field?
[11:42:01] <Yuv422> but 1
[11:42:03] <Yuv422> bit 1
[11:43:42] <sbx> if something besides f2 f3 is used in others
[11:45:00] <sbx> i dont see a difference between him and 123 Artegal who is also in Cove, but has f2
[11:46:28] <Yuv422> ok new scaling code is in the CVS.
[11:46:38] <Yuv422> hope it still builds.
[11:46:40] <Yuv422> ;)
[11:47:00] * sbx updates.
[11:47:29] * sbx builds.
[11:51:07] <Yuv422> still building?
[11:52:25] <sbx> yes
[11:53:37] <sbx> done
[11:53:51] <Yuv422> any compile issues?
[11:53:56] <sbx> nope
[11:53:58] <sbx> uh oh
[11:54:02] <sbx> now its strange
[11:54:12] <Yuv422> ?
[11:54:22] <sbx> its... stippled
[11:54:27] <sbx> all over the screen
[11:54:33] <sbx> it looks corrupted somehow
[11:54:37] <sbx> ill show you a screenshot
[11:54:51] <sbx> i see the actors twitching though :)
[11:55:07] <sbx> hmm
[11:55:08] <sbx> and moving
[11:55:09] <sbx> heh
[11:55:15] <Yuv422> oh maybe you've got a 16bit display?
[11:55:27] <Yuv422> I haven't checked for 16bit modes yet. ;)
[11:55:32] <sbx> i dont think my party is supposed to be moving around on its own like that :)
[11:55:33] <sbx> yeah
[11:55:49] <sbx> Attempting to set vid mode: 320x200x16x2 Software Surface
[11:55:49] <sbx> Using scaler: Point
[11:55:52] <Yuv422> hehe yeah I haven't set the in_party field for part members yet.
[11:56:07] <Yuv422> right will have to fix the 16 bpp problem.
[11:56:15] <Yuv422> shouldn't take long
[11:57:13] <Yuv422> I think we should have a cvs for U6 tech docs. what do you think?
[11:58:10] <sbx> exult just has them in the main cvs
[11:58:18] <sbx> last time i checked
[11:58:55] <Yuv422> hehe I should put that up on the website. ;)
[11:59:06] <Yuv422> let me fix it.
[11:59:20] <sbx> i was able to see shamino walk across the screen
[11:59:32] <sbx> in dot-matrix form
[12:02:03] <Kirben> I get 'random' undeclared (first use this function)' errors in actor.cpp
[12:02:41] <Yuv422> ah k
[12:02:46] <Yuv422> stdlib?
[12:03:16] <Kirben> changing to just rand seems to work
[12:04:24] <Yuv422> I think random is ment to replace rand?
[12:05:31] <Darke> Wrong way around. rand() is ISO 9899 standard.
[12:05:49] <Yuv422> hmm what are my man pages telling me.
[12:05:54] * Yuv422 looks again.
[12:06:24] <Yuv422> These interfaces are obsoleted by random(3).
[12:06:29] <Yuv422> from man 3 rand
[12:06:34] <Kirben> rand() isn't that good either, at least on win32
[12:06:42] <sbx> The versions of rand() and srand() in the Linux C Library use the same random number generator as random() and srandom(), so the lower-order bits should be as random as the higher-order bits. However, on older rand() implementations, the lower-order bits are much less random than the higher-order bits.
[12:08:27] <Darke> *blinkblink* Err... where do they say it's obsoleted? All the man pages I find say rand() conforms to ISO 9899 and don't mention anything about being 'obsolete'.
[12:09:24] <Yuv422> RAND(3) System Library Functions Manual RAND(3)
[12:09:24] <Yuv422> NAME
[12:09:24] <Yuv422> rand, srand, sranddev, rand_r - bad random number generator
[12:09:24] <Yuv422> LIBRARY
[12:09:27] <Yuv422> Standard C Library (libc, -lc)
[12:09:30] <Darke> What system are you using? random() is a BSDism, and doesn't conform to anything else, not even posix.
[12:09:31] <sbx> hehe
[12:09:37] <sbx> OSX?
[12:09:41] <sbx> i think except for security concern it doesnt matter if you switch them
[12:09:41] <Yuv422> hehe
[12:10:02] <sbx> if even that
[12:10:17] <Darke> The problem will be that the code isn't guaranteed to work on anything other then BSD. *grin*
[12:10:37] <Yuv422> righto I'll switch to rand()
[12:11:16] <Kirben> If you want real random values I suggest you use another random generation, the one in scummvm is good.
[12:11:39] <Yuv422> I'll look into that.
[12:13:41] <Yuv422> ok 16bit fix is in CVS now :)
[12:15:59] <Yuv422> Kirben: where abouts in the scumm tree are the random functions?
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[12:16:39] <Kirben> common/util.cpp
[12:16:46] <Yuv422> ah k
[12:18:47] <Yuv422> hmm not much to it really.
[12:19:14] <Yuv422> I might be looking at an old version.
[12:20:59] <sbx> Yuv422: works :)
[12:21:06] <sbx> strange though that theres 2 iolo's and shamino's
[12:21:16] <Yuv422> hmm really?
[12:21:26] <Yuv422> that's not good.
[12:21:28] <sbx> they might be npcs that look the same
[12:21:35] <sbx> i just didnt remember them
[12:21:36] <Yuv422> ah k
[12:21:52] <sbx> i think it is
[12:22:05] <Yuv422> you'll be able to talk to them soon. ;)
[12:22:21] <sbx> normally the pirates in buccaneers den are sitting instead of walking around so i dont remember their appearance as well
[12:22:26] <sbx> yeah
[12:22:43] <Yuv422> I've got to fix the walking around bit.
[12:22:52] <Yuv422> some actors are ment to be still
[12:23:06] <sbx> it should use their schedule activity
[12:23:10] <sbx> can i change the scaler?
[12:23:21] <Yuv422> hehhe if you go to cove ATM all the wounded men move around
[12:23:43] <Yuv422> and change into clocks, harps and all maner of strange items ;)
[12:23:48] <Yuv422> yes you should be able to
[12:23:53] <sbx> im guessing alt 214 doesnt work?
[12:23:59] <Yuv422> the scaler name is case sensitive at the moment though
[12:24:04] <Yuv422> nope not yet
[12:24:21] <Yuv422> and scale_factor is hardcoded
[12:24:22] <Yuv422> :(
[12:24:27] <Yuv422> better fix that.
[12:24:48] <Yuv422> actors should only realy move when the player does too. ;)
[12:25:17] <sbx> well
[12:25:21] <sbx> it might be an interesting option
[12:25:32] <sbx> to allow them to random walk even when time is stopped
[12:25:43] <sbx> to make the world seem more alive
[12:25:54] <sbx> they would not be able to change activity though
[12:26:22] <sbx> by "time stopped" i mean when your not walking or passing
[12:26:36] <Yuv422> yeah
[12:26:58] <Yuv422> I've got to make sure they don't walk to far away from their scheduled point either. :)
[12:27:15] <sbx> when you random walk to you limit them to a certain area?
[12:27:24] <Yuv422> not yet
[12:27:54] <sbx> i dont think they opened doors either
[12:28:01] <sbx> then only open doors when moving to next activity
[12:28:07] <Yuv422> no they won't do that.
[12:28:08] <sbx> but i'd have to confirm that to make sure
[12:28:13] <sbx> ok
[12:28:19] <Yuv422> in nuvie at least
[12:28:41] <Yuv422> they open doors when changing schedule locations in the original though
[12:29:51] <sbx> i set scale method to 2xSai
[12:29:55] <sbx> but it said using SuperEagle
[12:30:04] <Yuv422> should be 2xSaI
[12:30:24] <Yuv422> I've got to add the to_uppercase functions :)
[12:30:46] <sbx> can that be used with filenames?
[12:31:13] <sbx> if the filename has different case nuvie will crash
[12:31:33] <Yuv422> that's a problem with you OS's file system
[12:31:35] <sbx> but thats not a problem in a clean u6 install
[12:31:38] <sbx> heh
[12:32:00] <Yuv422> I guess I could look into the directory and do a match then ask for the case corrected filename. :)
[12:32:10] <Yuv422> but that is a fair bit of efford on my part. ;)
[12:32:15] <Yuv422> effort
[12:32:16] <sbx> if its too hard dont do it
[12:32:30] <Yuv422> maybe later.
[12:32:33] <sbx> the filenames will have original case if the person didnt rename them
[12:32:51] <sbx> i had to rename them to use them with dosbox, so i just made two u6 directories
[12:33:06] <Yuv422> ah k
[12:34:49] <Yuv422> object num is 10 bits from memory
[12:36:17] <sbx> that would explain things
[12:36:25] <Yuv422> :)
[12:36:34] <Yuv422> yeah I was just looking at your conv txt
[12:36:35] <sbx> why additem code uses 4 bytes
[12:36:53] <sbx> i think it does anyway, a7 is still confusing
[12:37:32] <Yuv422> have you looked at Jim Ursetto's Notes SBX?
[12:37:38] <sbx> no
[12:37:43] <sbx> where are they at?
[12:37:54] <sbx> oh, there should be a way to scroll the nuvie screen with alt-arrows or something
[12:38:26] <Yuv422> http://3e8.org/pub/ultima6/u6notes.txt
[12:38:42] <Yuv422> yeah I'll have to put that in.
[12:39:01] <sbx> thats recent
[12:39:02] <sbx> thanks
[12:39:28] <Yuv422> Jim's doc is a life saver.
[12:39:35] <Yuv422> loads of useful info
[12:41:59] <sbx> there isnt conversation info in there?
[12:42:25] <sbx> but there is twinling stars info
[12:42:27] <sbx> interesting
[12:42:32] <sbx> twinkling*
[12:43:25] <sbx> you can put this in your doc dir
[12:44:31] <sbx> when are you going to scale the border?
[12:44:50] <Yuv422> hehhe I've got to clip the mapwindow
[12:45:06] <Yuv422> I might work on that now
[12:46:36] <Yuv422> so many things to do.
[12:47:14] <Yuv422> I think it will be a while before the into sequence is remade. ;)
[12:47:21] <Yuv422> intro
[12:48:35] <Yuv422> one thing I ment to say
[12:48:45] <Yuv422> ariana is npc # 13
[12:48:49] <Yuv422> you;ve got 118?
[12:48:52] <Yuv422> in your doc.
[12:49:53] <Yuv422> Maybe I should make a converse expander.
[12:49:56] <Yuv422> ;)
[12:50:08] <Yuv422> so we can see what's going on textually.
[12:50:09] <sbx> expander? what will that do?
[12:50:22] <Yuv422> like what you've done in your doc
[12:50:30] <sbx> oh
[12:50:37] <sbx> here i have some other examples of that...
[12:51:14] <sbx> is that what you mean?
[12:51:20] <Yuv422> yeah
[12:51:42] <sbx> those close to the same format, but more or less converted
[12:51:44] <Yuv422> so we can see the logic flow and commands better
[12:51:51] <sbx> i change them if i find out something is different than i had assumed
[12:51:56] <sbx> yeah
[12:52:50] <sbx> not sure why i wrote 118 ariana :P
[12:53:02] <Yuv422> have you looked at Nystul
[12:53:09] <sbx> just a bit
[12:53:15] <sbx> the start is at the bottom of u6conv.txt
[12:53:33] <Yuv422> in the beginning he refuses to talk until you've visited the library.
[12:53:45] <sbx> a1 (d3 eb) (d3 07)
[12:54:34] <sbx> that is some comparison, that either continues, or jumps to the a2 or a4 code
[12:54:47] <sbx> if it continues it has a jump to 50d where he wont talk to you
[12:56:04] <sbx> it is still be possible that d3 is some kind of push, but i stopped assuming that after looking at where it is in certain places
[12:58:53] <Yuv422> would this sort of script need a stack?
[12:59:01] <sbx> no
[12:59:54] <Yuv422> hehe we should have had this discussion in the #nuvie channel. ;)
[13:00:29] <sbx> hmm
[13:01:43] <sbx> i havnt been thinking about what it this type of script would need because i dont really know what im doing or what kind of script it is, just guessing :)
[13:02:08] <Yuv422> I think you are making good progress.
[13:02:31] <Yuv422> and it's one less thing for me to do. ;)
[13:03:55] <sbx> ok, good, you can add, uh, ship access then so i can get off of buc's den :)
[13:05:41] <Yuv422> hehe yeah ship's might be a pain to implement. ;)
[13:06:01] <Yuv422> I could always do dungeon acces then you could walk home? ;)
[13:06:31] <sbx> i really loved the interconnecting dungeons in u6, it was great figuring that out
[13:07:10] <Yuv422> I should have ladders working soon.
[14:17:03] --> wjp has joined #exult
[14:17:03] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to wjp
[14:17:06] <wjp> hi
[14:17:11] <sbx> hi
[14:17:53] <Yuv422> hi wjp
[14:19:19] * sbx experiments with powder kegs in Ultima VI.
[14:23:18] --> exultbot has joined #exult
[14:23:18] --- Topic for #exult is: Exult: An open-source engine for Ultima 7: The Black Gate and The Serpent Isle; http://exult.sf.net/
[14:23:18] --- Topic for #exult set by SB-X at Fri Apr 4 19:07:29 2003
[14:28:45] <Darke> sbx: Ack! You blew up exultbot!
[14:29:47] <wjp> lol
[14:29:53] <sbx> somebody resurrected him
[14:30:06] <wjp> and now he has 4 pieces instead of 3!
[14:30:23] <sbx> ah
[14:30:51] <sbx> he fragments into shards
[14:30:57] <sbx> like mondain's gem
[14:31:07] <sbx> each one keeping its own log of a parallel remake universe :)
[14:32:36] <wjp> (#nuvie, btw, for the very few that aren't in there too :-) )
[14:34:09] <Yuv422> bed time
[14:34:10] <Yuv422> cya
[14:34:17] <-- Yuv422 has left IRC ("[BX] Become a BitchX Certified Systems Engineer today! Apply within!")
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[16:28:52] * Darke curls up, and sleeps. Night!
[16:28:56] --- Darke is now known as DarkeZzz
[16:28:57] <sbx> bye
[16:29:27] <wjp> night
[16:30:50] * DarkeZzz denies trying to take over the world through strategic use of nuclear pipe cleaners. It would not be elegant. *noddle*
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