[00:00:36] <servus> Can any of you guys create Ultima-Underworld-feeling maps in something like Worldcraft, QuArK, or Q3Radiant? :P
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[00:06:27] <servus> He did that last time I asked that, too.
[00:53:01] <SB-X> No.
[01:32:39] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/images/Random%20Illustrations/Fortress.jpg A world with something like that sort of feeling
[01:35:42] <SB-X> Why do they live underground, anyway?
[01:36:26] <servus> I've yet to figure that out, but I like underground.
[01:36:44] <servus> I think it's a lot more atmospheric
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[05:02:08] <richcon> hello
[05:06:52] <SB-X> hi
[05:09:06] <richcon> Thanks for tracing down the slippers issue for me
[05:09:23] <SB-X> oh, you're richard? you're welcome
[05:09:26] <servus> So you got a patch?
[05:09:29] <SB-X> it was fun to play Serpent Isle again
[05:09:58] <SB-X> servus: him or me? :p
[05:10:13] <servus> Him
[05:10:25] <richcon> Yep. First time for me. I bought the Ultima Collection years ago, and was determined to play them through in order (skipping only Alkabeth.. though i did look at it for about a half an hour), just now am getting up to Serpent Isle.
[05:10:39] <richcon> Patch? for the compile error? I got it to compile
[05:10:54] <SB-X> for the usecode bug
[05:10:59] <richcon> oh
[05:11:06] <richcon> There's no patch that I could see
[05:11:18] <SB-X> it's easier to patch the usecode than add some kind of fix for that occurance to the engine
[05:11:36] <richcon> I know. My suggestion wasn't for myself, I can just ignore it
[05:12:04] <richcon> It's for anyone else who takes the original files and plays through Exult with them (and apparantly is late resolving the slippers issue. Don't tell me anything more about it!)
[05:12:20] <SB-X> Marzo Junior likes to work with usecode; make him do it. :)
[05:12:30] <richcon> So no need to patch it for me
[05:12:41] <SB-X> yeah, apparently it wont hurt the game at all to ignore it
[05:13:03] <SB-X> the developers ignored it after all
[05:14:01] <richcon> Unless you want to post it to the site as a general Serpent Isle patch
[05:14:03] <richcon> that's up to you
[05:14:09] <SB-X> i'm not doing it
[05:14:41] <SB-X> does CVS exult come with usecode fixes?
[05:14:43] <servus> richcon: Did you play the Ultima Underworlds in proper order? :)
[05:14:49] <SB-X> I thought it did.
[05:15:29] <richcon> Nope. I didn't consider them to be part of the main plot arc, so I skipped them :) (besides, they didn't ship as a part of Ultima Collection.)
[05:15:45] <SB-X> It's about the mole-people of Britannia, and Mon Mothra their archduke.
[05:15:51] <servus> Ultima Underworld takes place right between Ultima VII and Ultima VII: Serpent Isle
[05:16:00] <richcon> So I've heard
[05:16:00] <servus> Mors Gotha ;P
[05:16:09] <richcon> Does it involve the Avatar, or another character?
[05:16:13] <servus> Ultima Underworld II is certainly part of the unierse
[05:16:31] <servus> Yes, you are the Avatar and you have adventures with Dupre, Iolo, Shamino, Lord British, Nystul, Nelson, and the whole gang
[05:16:58] <richcon> I did see the beginning of the game, just getting locked into the Abyss and walking around
[05:16:58] <servus> Even Syria of DeSnell is there, and it shows the fates of several recurring characters
[05:17:12] <servus> Ultima Underworld I has not much to do with the series, but Ultima Underworld II certainly does.
[05:17:30] <SB-X> Syria of DeSnell? You mean DeSnell of Syria?
[05:17:43] <richcon> when does Underworld II fit in? after Pagan?
[05:17:50] <servus> Syria the blademaster from Ultima VII and I think maybe VI too
[05:17:52] <richcon> (which I haven't played yet)
[05:18:05] <servus> No, Underworld II is between Ultima VII: Black Gate, and Ultima VII: Serpent Isle
[05:18:10] <SB-X> they bot hhad characters named D'snell
[05:18:12] <richcon> Ohh
[05:18:17] <richcon> I was thinking of Underworld I
[05:18:29] <richcon> I never looked at II at all
[05:18:34] <SB-X> both had*
[05:18:44] <servus> Underworld II is my favourite of all games
[05:18:55] <servus> Well, just mentioning it... :)
[05:20:12] <SB-X> Did it use the same engine of any other game I know?
[05:20:22] <richcon> Underworld I didn't get my attention very much. Though it did seem to put Doom to shame in game sophistication
[05:20:35] <richcon> gotta brb, cooking dinner
[05:20:56] <servus> The same engine was used for Ultima Underworld I and II, and System Shock I. The renderer was upgraded for Underworld II
[05:21:41] <SB-X> oh I love System shock
[05:21:51] <SB-X> but the 2nd one even more
[05:22:07] <SB-X> I havn't finished it yet.
[05:22:57] <SB-X> would have been nice if they included cyberspace
[05:23:27] <SB-X> you just connect random dots in SS2 to hack
[05:32:33] <richcon> back
[05:33:07] <richcon> The premise for Underworld I made much more sense when the main character is someone other than the Avatar
[05:34:02] <richcon> I mean, how can some small city mayor crook get away with throwing the Avatar – the holy messiah and savior of the entire world – into the Abyss? He's the one who emptied the Abyss for crissake!
[05:35:00] <richcon> the Avatar can't even commit petty larceny without Lord British detecting it
[05:35:04] <servus> It's not really clear that you are the avatar (or at least the same avatar) in Underworld 1
[05:35:13] <richcon> Ok, good :)
[05:35:19] <richcon> That almost ruined the premise of the game for me
[05:35:30] <richcon> That would have been a quick trial.
[05:35:45] <servus> Well suppose Lord British wasn't consulted
[05:36:02] <servus> And anyway it was your Avatarish duty to rescue that girl and combat Tyball
[05:36:19] <richcon> "Did you hear the voice? Did anyone hear the voice? You couldn't have missed it.. Lord British yelling over the mountains, 'THOU HAST LOST AN EIGHTH!' on the night of the murder? DID ANYONE HEAR THAT?!!!"
[05:36:46] <servus> Eigth?
[05:36:56] <richcon> yes yes
[05:36:58] <richcon> eigth
[05:37:17] <richcon> but my spell checker didn't catch eighth, so apparently it's ok too
[05:37:19] <SB-X> eight?
[05:37:33] <servus> I still don't get it
[05:37:34] <SB-X> I havn't played U4.
[05:37:37] <richcon> Oh
[05:37:39] <richcon> that's the joke
[05:37:40] <richcon> U4
[05:37:41] <servus> You mean karma points?
[05:37:47] <servus> It's been a long while
[05:38:23] <richcon> in ultima 4 whenever you commit the slightest indiscretion after becoming an eighth part Avatar in the virtue you just broke, that's what you hear
[05:38:33] <richcon> yelling voice "THOU HAST LOST AN EIGHTH!"
[05:38:48] <richcon> and you lose the partial avatarhood in that virtue and have to go and make it up again
[05:39:08] <richcon> U4 had separate karma points for each virtue, you had to learn each one individually and follow it
[05:39:47] <SB-X> in U8 you're encouraged to steal
[05:39:53] <SB-X> so I've heard
[05:40:12] <SB-X> Pagan has no virtues. Pagan needs no virtues.
[05:40:36] <servus> You need to steal to beat the game
[05:40:51] <servus> The climax of the game is theft, anyway, on the grandest scale.
[05:40:55] <servus> I really enjoyed Pagan
[05:41:14] <SB-X> that explains why you have no party, they would only get in the way
[05:41:43] <servus> Most everything you do in Pagan is theft.
[05:42:00] <SB-X> They should've forced a party upon you, requiring you to eliminate them before they could turn against you for stealing.
[05:42:26] <richcon> don't tell me much of pagan
[05:42:40] <servus> I don't believe I have
[05:42:47] <servus> I do believe you should play Ultima Underworld II, though.
[05:43:32] <richcon> I'll keep that in mind
[05:44:02] <richcon> By the way, I consider Ultima 4 the greatest computer RPG of all time (including this series), not for technology reasons (it was rather simplistic) but for story
[05:44:05] <servus> So I suppose you're not playing Savage Empire, either? :)
[05:44:25] <servus> I think Underworld II and Ultima VII had the most emotionally fulfilling stories
[05:45:04] <SB-X> U4 does seem like a great part of the series, so I still want to finish it.
[05:45:47] <SB-X> In U7 all you get is complaining party members when you steal.
[05:46:17] <servus> Well not just all
[05:46:21] <SB-X> and the Guardian
[05:46:25] <servus> They will leave and start attacking you, though I haven't seen that in Exult
[05:46:46] <SB-X> richcon: did you finish BG?
[05:46:50] <richcon> Yes
[05:46:53] <servus> Forge of Virtue?
[05:46:55] <richcon> in Exult
[05:46:55] <richcon> Yep
[05:46:57] <servus> Are you doing Silver Seed?
[05:47:02] <richcon> I think I finished it
[05:47:12] <servus> I played Serpent Isle first, then replayed with Silver Seed and went there ASAP and got waaaaaaaaay too powerful :P
[05:47:13] <SB-X> he needs the infinite spells!
[05:47:18] <servus> Shh
[05:47:21] <SB-X> well maybe not needs
[05:47:23] <SB-X> but why not?
[05:47:23] <richcon> I got the ring
[05:47:28] <SB-X> :)
[05:47:53] <richcon> The only thing I didn't complete there is the force field at the bottom of the well in the abandoned outpost. I couldn't figure out how to get rid of it, so I'll return when I can cast dispel fields
[05:48:08] <servus> Want the answer?
[05:48:15] <richcon> Hmm
[05:48:23] <SB-X> I don't even remember it.
[05:48:24] <servus> Took me a while :P
[05:48:31] <SB-X> only played through the game once
[05:48:31] <richcon> Sure. It's "just" the expansion pack anyway :)
[05:48:43] <richcon> brb
[05:48:46] <SB-X> I have a hintbook for it though.
[05:48:47] <servus> Remember the scroll that tells you how to bypass it?
[05:49:16] <SB-X> how about an alternate U7part2 where the Guardian enters Britannia?
[05:49:29] <servus> Hmm
[05:49:57] <servus> I'm still leaning towards the story of Mors Gotha, that might be fun and would definitely be far enough away from the Ultima world to not provoke anyone's wrath :P
[05:50:14] <servus> It could be about Mors Gotha's siege on Praecor Loth! Or something fun
[05:50:54] <richcon> well if you let the Guardian enter Britannia, there's nothing left. I assume British is killed, and there's no one left to summon you back
[05:51:21] <SB-X> he wasn't killed in U9
[05:53:03] <servus> Stop ruining things for people :P
[05:53:33] <SB-X> how can I ruin it? I never played it
[05:53:43] <SB-X> I assume you know he's still alive from the beginning.
[05:53:44] <richcon> not reading the past couple lines :)
[05:54:04] <richcon> well, you *could* do one where the guardian enters britannia, if you just took Ultima 5 and replaced all references to Blackthorn with Guardian
[05:54:14] <richcon> and had to go hunting for British
[05:54:22] <servus> I don't like remakes for the sake of remakes
[05:54:31] <richcon> me niether
[05:54:49] <richcon> that's why I'm just joking
[05:54:57] <SB-X> what about comedic ones?
[05:55:07] <richcon> I don't remember a scroll that tells me how to bypass the force fields
[05:55:24] <richcon> well, a comedic remake isn't a remake for the sake of a remake
[05:55:52] <richcon> be back in a while, gotta eat dinner
[05:56:17] <servus> Well the scroll is the key
[05:56:27] <servus> I think it might be on someone's corpse or something
[05:56:46] <SB-X> they key?
[05:56:48] <SB-X> the*
[05:57:17] <servus> The scroll shows the way
[06:04:33] <SB-X> I figured out my problems with copying and pasting in X. I mix the select and middle-click method with the Windows method, and wonder why I'm always losing the contents of the clipboard.
[06:12:09] <servus> I'm getting some good ideas for a Worlds of Ultima game:)
[06:12:43] <SB-X> what's that?
[06:13:13] <servus> The life of Mors Gotha, before the Guardian shows up :)
[06:13:46] <servus> Maybe a few Ultima cameos, like Killorn Keep, Dorstag, etc...
[06:15:19] <servus> And it would justify the sort of atmosphere and environment I want to create... Now I just need a big ol' team :)
[06:15:31] <SB-X> Would it use the U6 engine, like the others?
[06:15:59] <servus> Huh?
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[06:16:12] <SB-X> The other Worlds of Ultimas used the U6 engine.
[06:16:14] <servus> No, my own engine. I know how much work it is
[06:16:17] <SB-X> ah
[06:16:26] <servus> Just think it'd be fun to try - I didn't mean 'worlds of ultima' in that sense.
[06:18:06] <SB-X> I wanted to see it done in the U6 engine like the other games. Then you could use Nuvie.
[06:18:24] <SB-X> Perhaps I'll make my own Worlds of Ultima style game using it.
[06:19:44] <servus> Go ahead :)
[06:19:57] <SB-X> Anything you think would be cool?
[06:19:59] <servus> I've got that U6 -> U7 map converter still. Maybe you could reverse it
[06:20:05] <SB-X> haha
[06:20:07] <servus> Well I'm really not creative
[06:20:37] <SB-X> I wouldn't want to convert the U7 Britannia into LoDef format like that.
[06:20:57] <servus> Then use Exult engine :P
[06:21:05] <SB-X> it should take place in another world anyway, that's the point
[06:21:26] <SB-X> loosely connected to ultima
[06:22:38] <servus> Mors Gotha sounds like the best material I can come up with for a worlds of ultima sort of thing
[06:26:28] <SB-X> Send the Avatar back in time to prehistoric Sosaria, before some idiot casts Armageddon.
[06:26:45] <SB-X> And then the twist at the end is that the Avatar is the one who casts it.
[06:26:51] <SB-X> oops
[06:40:38] <servus> Already been done
[06:40:46] <SB-X> really?
[06:41:01] <SB-X> specifically related to Ultima?
[06:44:30] <richcon> back
[06:44:48] <SB-X> wb
[06:45:13] <richcon> I've got a question about building exult from CVS
[06:45:20] <richcon> if anyone has time to help me through it
[06:45:52] <richcon> how do I build the data directory?
[06:46:57] <richcon> it's got a Makefile and .h header files
[06:47:04] <richcon> but can't seem to figure out what I'm supposed to do with it
[06:47:47] <SB-X> it's supposed to be built when you compile normally
[06:48:07] <SB-X> since you need the files to play either BG or SI
[06:48:24] <richcon> so I just copy the data directory as it is into whatever directory I put the exult executable into?
[06:49:37] <SB-X> no, make install is supposed to do that
[06:49:52] <SB-X> only need some of the files
[06:50:25] <SB-X> those ending in .flx, .data, .txt, and the estudio directory
[06:50:32] <richcon> didn't think to run make install
[06:50:47] <SB-X> at least according to my copy
[06:50:48] <SB-X> heh
[06:51:51] <SB-X> im not sure what you need, because I always do run make install and dont worry about it
[06:54:28] <richcon> I need to figure out where it's hard coding the location. I'm not running it as root, and I'm using the Mac OS X make option (make Exult_app). It doesn't trim the data directory though, but seems to work everywhere else.
[06:56:04] <SB-X> did you try make install prefix=destdir
[06:56:24] <richcon> nope
[06:56:29] <SB-X> you're configured location will have to be the same, however
[06:56:36] <richcon> and I just found my first crasher in exult 1.4
[06:56:37] <SB-X> ./configure --prefix=destdir
[06:56:41] <SB-X> heh
[06:56:43] <SB-X> what happened?
[06:56:51] <servus> SB-X: Savage Empire
[06:57:00] <servus> And underworld I
[06:57:10] <servus> You can also cast Armageddon in Ultima VII
[06:57:41] <SB-X> Savage Empire? I didn't think it took place in Sosaria.
[06:57:45] <richcon> opened up a previous Black Gate game saved to me located on the pirate cove in the isle of the avatar
[06:57:48] <richcon> got into combat
[06:58:02] <richcon> and in the middle of combat, hit '1' to see if I'm using the blackrock sword in this save file
[06:58:27] <richcon> game instead locked up (didn't show anything), hung for a few seconds, then quit.
[06:58:38] <richcon> probably 10-20 seconds
[06:58:42] <SB-X> that's wierd
[06:58:58] <SB-X> out of curiosity is your savegame from a previous version of exult?
[06:58:58] <richcon> I got a stack trace here
[06:59:01] <richcon> yes
[06:59:35] <SB-X> you should check the bugtracker for anything similiar and then post on the forum
[06:59:39] <richcon> EXC_BAD_ACCESS exception
[07:00:28] <servus> SB-X: It took place in Eodon, AKA prehistoric Earth or Sosaria, depending on your refernces.
[07:01:31] <SB-X> But it's in a valley that you can't get out of, so who knows?
[07:01:50] <SB-X> Is that how the game ends, by casting Armageddon?
[07:02:01] <SB-X> I mean, the "good" ending.
[07:03:33] <servus> No
[07:03:42] <servus> You can't cast Armageddon in Savage Empire.
[07:04:08] <SB-X> So it's not entirely the same.
[07:04:54] <SB-X> I was thinking something set much later, and there is actually a somewhat advanced civilization that was lost.
[07:05:23] <SB-X> still before known britannian history
[07:10:58] <richcon> after some more testing, it's crashing whenever I try to bring up someone's inventory in black gate
[07:12:07] <SB-X> good that it can be repeated consistently
[07:12:28] <richcon> and it does it when I created an entirely new game
[07:12:42] <SB-X> it might just be something that other people can't reproduce though... I havn't heard of that before
[07:13:00] <richcon> after skipping through all of Iolo's dialog and waiting for him to join the party, the moment I bring up my inventory screen it crashes
[07:14:32] <richcon> maybe it's platform specific. I'm on mac os x
[07:21:50] <richcon> I found where it's crashing in the code (I think). I'm going to post it now
[07:27:20] <richcon> do you think I should post it to the forum or the bug tracker?
[07:28:09] <SB-X> forum
[07:28:40] <richcon> ok
[07:28:41] <SB-X> If you know it's a real bug, perhaps to both.
[07:29:01] <SB-X> but they won't care if you just post to the forum
[07:29:13] <richcon> ok
[07:29:18] <richcon> thanks
[07:29:22] <SB-X> np
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[07:48:36] <servus> /join #firefox
[07:49:29] <SB-X> ok
[07:52:20] <servus> You missed my question.
[07:52:39] <servus> I wasn't telling you to go there. It was a typo.
[07:52:46] <SB-X> :(
[07:52:47] <SB-X> Can you repeat it?
[07:52:55] <servus> "Why doesn't Firefox 1.5 support inline-block CSS? IE 6 supports it."
[07:53:09] <SB-X> Thanks. :)
[07:59:09] <servus> I wonder where my pants went to.
[07:59:46] <richcon> gotta love two back to back sentences from the same person that have so little in common they shouldn't even be on the screen at the same time
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[08:01:11] <richcon> Safari on the Mac supports inline-block. I wonder why firefox doesn't. Maybe it was first created by Microsoft
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[08:06:45] <richcon> goodnight
[08:06:48] <richcon> thanks again for the help
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[09:01:23] <SB-X> servus: people ask questions there but nobody answers
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[09:08:53] <SB-X> servus: people ask questions there but nobody answers
[09:08:58] <SB-X> wb
[10:43:28] <SB-X> bye
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