#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 5 Jan 2003 (GMT)

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[01:09:10] * Coren_ wavies.
[01:09:34] <Coren_> Thank god I wasn't around when that ShadwChsr MS weenie was around. I would have thrown a fit. :-)
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[01:18:31] <Coren_> What's this I hear? EA has acted against some remake?
[01:21:52] <matto> Coren_: LOL!
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[01:26:08] <matto> Coren_: yes I was having a difficult time containing myself
[01:45:14] <Coren_> matto: What's that about a U1 remake being shut down or somesuch?
[01:45:46] <matto> Coren_: I haven't heard anything about it
[01:47:24] <Coren_> Something Colourless has mentionned in the logs. The tenor I got from reading him is that in that particular case it was a good riddance, but he didn't give details. :-(
[01:47:46] <Coren_> I haven't been followed the 3d-remake-with-game-du-jour scene, so I'm not sure who it could have been.
[01:47:55] <matto> hmmm... my brother was following a U1 remake
[01:47:56] <Coren_> s/followed/following/
[01:48:06] <matto> I forget what it was called, but the guy doing it was called Telemachus
[01:49:26] <Coren_> Telemachos. /His/ project is still up as far as I can tell; but they are doing their own engine, it's not one of those DS/morrowind/NWN "remakes" by nerdy teenagers that wouldn't recognize a line of code if it bit them.
[01:50:20] <matto> hehe
[01:50:20] <Coren_> In fact, I seem to recall hearing Michael Fink talk about him [Telemachos] having given uwadv some collision detection code help or somesuch.
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[02:27:07] * Coren_ chuckles as Dark-Star manages to have three of his windows indicate activity simultaneously. :-)
[02:39:13] <Dark-Star> activity? where? did I miss it?? ;-)
[02:39:27] <Coren_> Just your entering. :-)
[02:40:43] <Dark-Star> hmm... there's not much going on here tonight...
[02:41:41] <Coren_> We could invite ShadwChsr back in to give us a speech on why the "tens of thousands of working applications" demonstrate there is nothing wrong with Windows. :-)
[02:43:04] <matto> Coren_: haha
[02:43:04] <Dark-Star> hmm... well... so what IS wrong with windows...?
[02:43:49] <Coren_> I think it can be summed up simply: shoddy workmanship. There is nothing wrong with most of the concepts, but the implementation is rickety.
[02:44:21] <Coren_> I have had the opportunity to play with a Mac for the first time since Cocoa; I was impressed.
[02:44:27] <Dark-Star> hmm... I agree that most of the concepts are very good. But most of them are not implemented very bad...
[02:44:52] <Coren_> Being able to start a bash and poke around was fun; and showed that the people over at Apple were actually smart.
[02:45:19] <Dark-Star> take scripting for example. almost every MS program is scriptable with VB. In linux, you have a lot of different script languages (IF the app implements scripting at all, that is)
[02:45:57] <Dark-Star> ok, you don't have full control over your system. but then, you don't have full control over your microwave either (try to switch it on while the door is open :-)
[02:46:18] <Coren_> Dark-Star: If you are interrested in a technical evaluation of Win32's numerous failings, I'd be glad to enlighten you both for an engineering and from a theorical CS point of view-- but beware that I only discuss such things with people who are not interrested in religious debate. :-)
[02:46:52] <Dark-Star> Coren_ I might get back to that offer later, when I'm not already half-asleep :)
[02:47:02] <Dark-Star> it's almost 4 a.m. here. . .
[02:47:17] <Coren_> And no, I am not a Linux "weenie". I happen to use linux because it happens to do most of what I want mostly the way I want it; many other OSes are also very good, and all of them have failings.
[02:48:17] <Coren_> To be frank, if I could run Cocoa on my hardware, I'd probably consider it; although I'd probably want to run X alongside Aqua.
[02:48:45] <Dark-Star> Coren_ that's what I always keep saying, no OS os perfect. But most people I talk to about that subject just keep screaming "Microsoft is EVIL, that's why Windows is baaaaad"... I don't like those people ;-)
[02:49:19] <Coren_> Well, Microsoft IS Evil, but that's the effect not the cause. :-)
[02:49:41] <Dark-Star> true
[02:50:28] <Coren_> I.e, Microsoft is Evil because it knowingly markets a product it knows to be inferior and defective into a dominating position with carefully crafted marketing lies.
[02:51:15] <Coren_> I don't think they actually set out to make Windows so bad-- I'm sure they would have much prefered it to actually be good. It's MUCH easier to sell good wares after all. :-)
[02:51:35] <Dark-Star> I wouldn't put it that way. Actually, Linux is inferior too, in a lot of ways. I just need to see a lot of my KDE apps crashing mystically :)
[02:52:25] <Dark-Star> some of the shortcomings of windows are because of "backward-compatibility", which is actually not a bad idea IMHO
[02:52:31] <Coren_> Hmm, actually, if you have KDE apps crash mystically all the time, you probably see one of the things Linux (or, for that matter, any serious unix) is best at-- protecting the OS from flawed programs. :-)
[02:53:14] <Dark-Star> I've never had any windows app crash my whole system under W2k/XP
[02:53:28] <Coren_> "backwards compatibility" is a poor excuse, actually. It is never a good engineering reason to destroy an improved design-- design it well then add a compatibility layer if you really need to.
[02:54:15] <Coren_> I do. I run win2k when I have to Win32 at all, at there are often cases where the OS looses; rarely enough to crash, but often sufficiently that a reboot is required in short order.
[02:54:59] <Dark-Star> hmmm... maybe I was only lucky until now. Or you should check/update your drivers *g*
[02:55:18] * Dark-Star fears that this might lead to a holy war here...
[02:55:48] <Coren_> But I'm a little confused why you point to KDE apps crashing as a failing of Linux? Unless the OS itself has caused a well-behaved application to crash, then it's the application's fault.
[02:56:24] <Coren_> No, actually, it could be either-- you might have been lucky, or I might have some OS component that is less stable.
[02:56:31] <Dark-Star> yes, I was referring to the OS as Kernel+Utility Programs
[02:57:16] <Dark-Star> so the kernel might be stable but if my text editor crashes when I select "save as..." that's a problem of the OS, because a text editor is part of the OS.
[02:57:45] <Coren_> Erm, no. A text editor isn't part of the OS. It might be distributed along with it, but it's most definitely not part of it.
[02:57:52] <Dark-Star> ok, now you could argument that I shouldn't use Kate but emacs or vi or whatever... and that's quite true, it's just that kate is the first one I see after installing linux
[02:58:28] * Darke admits he's slightly stunned at the thought of a text editor being part of the OS. Even MS doesn't consider Notepad/Wordpad that! *grin*
[02:58:33] <Coren_> I wouldn't try to argue an enduser into using vi or emacs. Those are development tools. :-)
[02:58:48] <Dark-Star> OK, then we were talking of different things. I refer to the OS as Kernel + GNU utilities + stuff. Because a kernel by itself cannot interact with the user in any way...
[02:59:01] <Coren_> Dark; yes, you are correct.
[02:59:20] <Coren_> And don't bring the FSF into it, please. :-)
[02:59:32] <matto> so anyway, about the FSF ...
[02:59:32] * Dark-Star was thinking the same right now :)
[02:59:40] <Coren_> And OS is the kernel (or kernel-equivalent), and the support tool necessary to provide an interface.
[03:00:25] <Coren_> In the cast of (most) linuxes, you are talking about the kernel, a number of daemons and support tools, X, and some window manager/environment.
[03:00:45] <Coren_> Windows provides much the same layers, albeit monolithically for the most part.
[03:01:12] <Coren_> The curse and blessing of Linux is that you actually get to choose most of those layers
[03:02:14] <Coren_> But given a good selection, Linux is more stable and secure as an OS than Windows. We shan't touch applications in this evaluation.
[03:03:12] <Dark-Star> The linux kernel itself is more stable than the Win32 kernel I think, at least on "normal" desktop machines
[03:03:22] <Coren_> For one, commercial imperatives have cause Windows to get most development $. That skews evaluation of the OS proper-- a very good application can work around/avoid shortcomings of the OS.
[03:03:50] <Dark-Star> but tra running linux on server hardware, like intel server boards with SCSI and/or FC controllers... and winder about the veeery strange kernel panics you get :-)
[03:03:54] <Dark-Star> s/tra/try
[03:04:00] <Dark-Star> s/winder/wonder
[03:04:07] * Dark-Star yawns
[03:04:13] <Coren_> Well, the main problem with the NT kernel is that it's a very good code base severely mangled by codegrinders for years and years.
[03:05:00] <Coren_> Huh? I (have/do) admin very large server farms, all runing linux, all on *very* high end hardware.
[03:05:37] <Dark-Star> Hmm.. I work (part time) for a company selling high end storage and server systems... and we need to test various stuff in our lab before we can sell it...
[03:05:56] <Dark-Star> ... and there are a *lot* of kernel panics involved that have to do with hardware.
[03:06:01] <Coren_> *my* boxen are all up, all the time. The guy who does NT kept being beeped. My favorite tease to him was to regularly offer to exchange my batteries for his, given that his were drained and mine alsmot fresh all the time. :-)
[03:06:34] <matto> haha
[03:06:40] <Dark-Star> one example: We have an intel server board that kept crashing while trying to initialize the SCSI controller. The controller worked fine on other boards (it was an Adaptec AHA39160 or 39320 I believe)
[03:06:54] <matto> 29160 ?
[03:07:03] <Dark-Star> no, 39160 (dual channel)
[03:07:10] <Coren_> Dark-Star: you're inverting cause and effect, if you want to run Linux, choose hardware whose manufacturer publishes (complete!) specs and/or provide information to linux developers.
[03:07:13] <matto> I've had trouble using the 29160 under linux
[03:07:54] <Dark-Star> well, anyway, we found the problem, but it was not with the SCSI controller, it was with the ACPI subsystem. acpi=off solved it, and now the system runs...
[03:08:04] <Coren_> The reason why the kernel may not be stable with some hardware is because the manufacturer made no effort to have it work under Linux, whilst possibly having spend millions developing a Windows driver.
[03:08:23] <Dark-Star> matto: all AIC7xxx should work pretty stable under linux... what problem are you experiencing?
[03:08:33] <matto> well I don't work for that company anymore
[03:08:38] <matto> so to heck with them and their problems :)
[03:09:04] <matto> and to heck with g++-3.2 and its broken inline assembly ... !
[03:09:32] <Dark-Star> hehe ok :) most SCSI problems are cable- or termination-related anyway, expecially with the new controllers
[03:09:47] <Coren_> Funny that, however, you would excuse my windows stability problems to device driver woes, but when you want to give an example of linux instability to take a device driver problem. :-)
[03:10:41] <Dark-Star> well, the point I was trying to show is that the problem was not in the SCSI driver but in a completely different subsystem (ACPI). but anyway, it's (still) very very late here, so I might not make sense :)
[03:11:01] * Dark-Star yawns again, so that everyone can see it ...
[03:12:31] <Coren_> Go away already. :-)
[03:15:50] <Dark-Star> Coren_: btw, I finally managed to get a game map to load (and to save it as *valid* BMP) in my infinity engine reimplementation :-)
[03:16:05] <Coren_> Gooooooodie!
[03:16:21] <Coren_> You mean the scanlines are aligned, now? :-)
[03:16:26] <Dark-Star> yes :)
[03:16:59] <Dark-Star> but that's not really a big problem, because all game maps are made of 64x64 tiles....
[03:18:06] <Dark-Star> now I need to implement arbitrary polygons (checking if a point is inside a polygon or not)... need to find a nice algorithm for that tomorrow
[03:19:54] <Coren_> That's actually trivial but fairly expensive.
[03:20:28] <Dark-Star> yes, I figured that from the file format description, because with each polygon they also save it's bounding box :-)
[03:21:38] <Dark-Star> I remember it works something like moving from left to right and counting the number of time one crosses the boundary line
[03:22:30] <Dark-Star> the problem is I don't have the lines, only the coordinates of the vertexes...
[03:22:49] <Coren_> That's the simple way, yes, albeit it has problems with pixel resolution with non-integral slopes.
[03:23:07] <Coren_> It's simple to get a line equation from two points.
[03:24:25] <Coren_> But it doesn't solve the problem that you have to check for crossing _segments_, not just the line they lie on.
[03:24:26] <Dark-Star> Yes, I thought about that. then intersect the target y-coordinate with each of them and sort the result from left to right, then count
[03:25:24] <Dark-Star> hmm.. if I know that it intersects the line, I only need to check whether x1<=xi<=x2 and y1<=yi<=y2 where (xi, yi) is the intersection point
[03:25:38] <Dark-Star> and (x1,y1) and (x2,y2) are the sorted end points
[03:26:24] <Coren_> Ouch; you're going at it the hard way-- that means you have to do a dot product of two lines for every segment that could be crossed!
[03:26:49] <Dark-Star> yes, I think the polygons are rather small (about 10-15 vertices max I guess)
[03:27:35] <Coren_> What you want to do is solve the line equation for the given y2 (if the segment crosses that y) and simply count the number of solutions where x < x2
[03:28:25] <Dark-Star> yes, the question that remains is: what's faster? first sorting all points then intersecting with only those segments that have one point x,y with x<=xi
[03:28:44] <Coren_> No, that's longer.
[03:28:52] <Dark-Star> so I should first intersect with all lines and then find the intersection points that are <=xi
[03:29:03] <Coren_> Here is the fast algorithm, the point you want to check is (xt,yt)
[03:29:36] <Coren_> For every segment where y1 <= yt <= y2
[03:30:35] <Coren_> Calculate x at yt ( x = (x1-x2) ( (y1/yt) / (y1/y2) ) )
[03:30:46] <Coren_> if x < xt, then the segment has been crossed.
[03:31:05] <Coren_> If you have an odd number of crossings, then you are inside.
[03:31:18] <Coren_> Eee
[03:31:44] <Coren_> x = (x1-x2) ( (yt-y1) / (y2-y1) )
[03:31:51] <Coren_> Brain failiure there for a sec
[03:32:02] <Dark-Star> I was just wondering ;-)
[03:32:20] <Dark-Star> but...
[03:32:42] <Coren_> x = x1 + (x1-x2) ( (yt-y1) / (y2-y1) )
[03:32:52] <Coren_> I'm sure for real this time. :-)
[03:33:12] <Dark-Star> I'll check it again tomorrow to see what I come up with :)
[03:33:52] <Dark-Star> ok, sounds correct and quite fast :-)
[03:34:03] <Coren_> That's about as fast as it gets, it's O(1) with the number of segments in the polygon, and has just the one division per segment.
[03:35:11] <Coren_> Watch out of the way you calculate x if you do this in integral types, though.
[03:35:34] <Coren_> You need to multiply *before* you divide otherwise you're going to loose all the good bits. :-)
[03:35:58] <Dark-Star> Yes, I have quite some experience with _that_ kind of problem ;-)
[03:36:27] <Dark-Star> thanks, maybe I'll find the time to implement (clickable) doors tomorrow, that would really be something :-)
[03:36:31] * Coren_ tries to never presume which code-fu belt one wears. :-)
[03:37:04] <Dark-Star> it gave me some very hard time debugging it when it first occured ("zero? why the heck is that result zero??" *g*)
[03:37:24] * Coren_ chuckles.
[03:39:51] * Dark-Star thinks about all the SDL stuff he needs to write before he can even think of implementing something like a door...
[03:41:57] <Dark-Star> I think I'll go to bed now. see ya!
[03:42:25] * Dark-Star slowly walks away, mumbling "class Renderer { ... } ..."
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[04:25:24] <ShadwChsr> hey :)
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[04:56:11] <matto> ShadwChsr!!!!!!!!
[05:09:26] <ShadwChsr> what? :)
[05:09:34] <slacked> heh
[05:09:35] <ShadwChsr> Did I win the lottery?
[05:09:59] <slacked> matto
[05:10:10] <slacked> tone that enthusiasm down a bit
[05:10:23] <slacked> we don't tolerate excited people in exult
[05:10:57] <matto> slacked: I've noticed!!!
[05:11:06] <matto> some extremely serious people around here <grin>
[05:11:07] <slacked> :P
[05:11:14] <slacked> yeh stuipid people
[05:12:22] <slacked> plus lazy developers
[05:13:26] <ShadwChsr> thats what developers do best
[05:14:32] * slacked coughs and splutters out two noticable things.... "party formation" *cough* "theft implementation".
[05:14:51] * Darke lazes back, reading a magazine. That's him!
[05:15:03] <ShadwChsr> :)
[05:15:13] <ShadwChsr> shhhh some of them are sensitive about party formation ;-)
[05:15:58] <slacked> i know
[05:16:02] <slacked> but it's time they know it sucks
[05:16:03] <slacked> !!
[05:16:14] <slacked> I want an option to change back
[05:16:25] <slacked> Is that so unreasonable?
[05:17:56] <Darke> It never was like that originally in exult. So what you're actually saying is that you want an option to change it to the non-default party formation. *grin*
[05:18:26] <slacked> no
[05:18:37] <slacked> to default of the original, party formation
[05:18:49] <slacked> I prefer that euphamism
[05:44:30] * Coren_ politely points out that people dissatisfied with the companions not walking in lockstep are welcome to patch their source to do it their way.
[05:46:42] * Coren_ is away: sleep
[05:52:09] <Darke> Nah. That's the *default* of u7, the default of exult is what we have at the moment. *grin*
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[14:02:49] <wjp> hi
[14:08:59] <Darke> Hi!
[14:10:08] * Darke denies everything! Just on general principal, y'know?
[14:10:24] * wjp blames Darke anyway
[14:13:56] * Darke pouts.
[14:13:58] <Darke> No fair!
[14:14:50] <wjp> wow, lots of talk in here last night
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[14:15:17] <wjp> hi
[14:15:19] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[14:15:39] <Colourless> Hi!
[14:15:49] <wjp> "<Dark-Star> Coren_: btw, I finally managed to get a game map to load (and to save it as *valid* BMP) in my infinity engine reimplementation :-)" <-- Dark-Star is rewriting the infinity engine?
[14:16:20] <Colourless> well, lots about the infinity engine is known
[14:16:33] <Colourless> a number of editors, stat modifiers at stuff
[14:16:44] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[14:17:11] <Colourless> most, if not all of the formats are documented in one way or another
[14:19:31] * Colourless has decided that once and for all that the driver writers at 3dfx were, as Darke would say, "brane damaged". The stupidity of some of the code in places is virtually unexplainable
[14:20:37] <Colourless> Example: in order to perform a frame buffer dump, the OpenGL driver writers took a read_only lock, and also took a write_only lock, and preceded to read from the write_only lock, but use the stride from the read_only lock
[14:21:54] <Darke> Erm... *blinkie* That's really not all that bright.
[14:21:56] <wjp> hm, that does sound weird :-)
[14:23:16] <Colourless> i had to hack around that behaviour when attempting to fix reading from a 32 bit buffer when the app is only expecting to be reading from a 16 bit buffer.
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[14:34:42] <Dark-Star> Hi
[14:34:45] <wjp> hi
[14:35:18] <Colourless> hi
[14:35:52] <Dark-Star> Coren, are you there?
[14:36:06] <wjp> Dark-Star: you're working on an infinity engine rewrite?
[14:36:34] <Dark-Star> wjp: well, I started something, yes. But I dunno if it'll ever be finished :)
[14:36:39] <wjp> cool :-)
[14:36:48] <wjp> cross-platform? :-)
[14:37:26] <Dark-Star> I try to, of course. Right now I'm coding in cygwin, so it should be portable to Linux at least (ia-32 Linux, that is :)
[14:39:31] <Colourless> tsk tsk, you should be using platform independant programming
[14:40:06] <Colourless> mostly you just run into byte ordering problem when reading files
[14:42:14] <Dark-Star> Yes, that was what I was talking about ;-) My code should be fairly platform independant...
[14:42:44] <Dark-Star> I will need to implement something like a "SWAP_BYTES" macro I guess...
[14:43:10] <Dark-Star> but the I/O code is all in one class so that should be fairly simple ...
[14:43:56] <Colourless> alternatively you can use specific read2() and read4() functions to read shorts and longs in a byte order independant method. That is what we do
[14:46:21] <Dark-Star> Actually, I'm doing it quite similar (readUInt8, readUInt16, readUInt16)... that's because I once browsed the exult sources for information on how to do "raw" reads from a stream ;-)
[14:46:28] <Dark-Star> s/readUInt16/readUInt32
[14:47:00] <Colourless> i see....
[14:47:12] <Colourless> well, if you are using our code, it's byte order independant
[14:52:17] <Dark-Star> so where is the decision whether the system is big endian or not? there must be some #ifdefs somewhere but I can't find them...
[14:52:55] <Colourless> there are no #ifdefs, since the way we do things doesn't need them
[14:53:20] <Colourless> if you read individual bytes from a stream, and then use shifts to reconstruct the int you don't need to do byte swapping
[14:53:33] <Dark-Star> hmmm
[14:54:21] <Dark-Star> that's cool, then my code actually IS platform independent :-)
[14:54:51] <Colourless> just make sure you are not reading/writing any structures raw. It's easy to do without realizing :-)
[14:55:06] <Colourless> im taking about things like
[14:55:35] <Colourless> stream.read(&some_struct, sizeof(some_struct));
[14:56:37] <Dark-Star> hmm... I don't think so, because I hardly use structs directly... but I will take a look at it later
[14:56:59] <Colourless> doing that is evil because it's not only byte order unsafe, it can also be compiler dependant too because of packing
[14:57:13] <Darke> Which is not only platform dependant, but compiler dependant, compiler version dependant, and optimisation level dependant, IIRC.
[14:57:27] <Colourless> structures should always have their members manually read/written
[14:57:37] * Darke seconds Colourless.
[14:58:12] <Dark-Star> for example all my structs have std::strings where the file has char[] arrays...
[14:58:33] <Dark-Star> I have some struct stuff in my BMP I/O code though...
[14:58:34] <Colourless> also reading and writing structure/classes with virtual functions is a quick way to hell :-)
[14:59:19] <Dark-Star> for now I did it with __attribute__((packed)) but I know that that is not portable, so I added a "sanity check" in the constructor ;-)
[14:59:54] <Darke> Colourless: *shudder*
[15:00:18] <Colourless> Darke: *cough* ultima8 *cough*
[15:00:21] <Dark-Star> well, at least it won't crash or show strrange errors :-)
[15:01:17] <Dark-Star> but since that's the only place where this happens I might as well fix it now...
[15:03:29] <Darke> Colourless: I know. *grin* At least they avoided it for *some* of the classes they were saving. *grin*
[15:10:54] <Dark-Star> hmm.. actually I could get rid of the BMP header structs completely now...
[15:25:38] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("restarting, brb")
[15:25:41] --> Ember has joined #exult
[15:26:45] --> Colourless has joined #Exult
[15:26:51] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[15:27:48] * Ember wingwaves at the dragon as she concludes that disconnections *suck*!
[15:27:49] <Colourless> only a fraction over a minute to restart windows, not bad
[15:28:05] <Colourless> hi
[15:29:05] <-- Darke has left IRC (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: Ember!~Darke@m008-254.nv.iinet.net.au)))
[15:29:09] --- Ember is now known as Darke
[15:29:22] * Darke yawnstretches. Much better.
[15:29:42] * Darke grumbles at dumb windows box used for net gateway.
[15:29:43] <Colourless> so, just *how* many names do you have?
[15:30:23] * Darke counts. 3 Male, 3 Female come to mind immediately. But they're not counting the minor characters. *grin*
[15:30:38] <Colourless> :-)
[15:31:04] * Darke years the 'minor' characters yelling at him for referring to them as that.
[15:31:32] * wjp hands Darke a spare 'h'
[15:31:53] * Darke swaps it in for the missplaced 'y'. Ta.
[15:32:08] * wjp takes an extra 's' as payment
[15:32:09] <Colourless> i'll take that y thank you very much
[15:32:41] * Darke paws the 'y' to the dragon.
[15:32:56] --- Colourless is now known as Colourlessy
[15:33:18] <Colourlessy> hmm, no, not 'quite' right is it
[15:33:20] --- Colourlessy is now known as Colourless
[15:33:29] * Darke thinks the lurkers must think we're *completely* nuts sometimes. *grin*
[15:33:42] <wjp> heh, only sometimes? :-)
[15:34:12] <Darke> Ok, so they think I'm a complete frootloop 100% of the time.
[15:35:20] <Colourless> well, lets see, you have at least 6 personalities, of which 3 of them are of the opposite sex, so it seems reasonable that would think that :-)
[15:41:18] <Darke> Erm... yeah. *grin*
[15:42:05] * Colourless keeps the amount of 'personalites' he has and the genders of them classified
[15:43:13] * Darke is too promiscuous with his personalities. *noddlenod*
[15:43:45] <Darke> Erm... *blinkie* Uhh... That reads *really* dubiously.
[15:44:13] <wjp> lol
[15:44:26] <Colourless> you think :-)
[15:45:55] * Darke hides from Colourless before Colourless has the chance to do something *he* might regret!
[15:46:54] * Colourless has no idea what Darke is on about
[15:47:48] <Darke> :twitches and sticks his head out from behind the couch, making sure that Colourless is as *far* from the quotes file as possible. Evil dragon's done that before!
[15:48:14] <Darke> s/:/\/me/
[15:48:47] <wjp> unknown command: /metwitches ;-)
[15:48:49] <Colourless> lucky you, the quotes files is on a NTFS partition and i only have read access to it since i'm in Win98
[15:49:05] * Darke phews!
[15:49:16] * Darke slips wjp a ' '.
[15:49:19] * Coren_ is back
[15:49:25] <wjp> hi Coren_
[15:49:44] <Dark-Star> Hi Coren_
[15:49:59] <Dark-Star> Coren_ you had another error in your formula yesterday ;-)
[15:50:28] <Coren_> I did? That's entierly likely since I was half asleep by then. :-) What was it?
[15:51:05] <Dark-Star> you had "(x1 - x2)" instead of "(x2 - x1)"
[15:51:34] <Coren_> Yep. That'd be an error.
[15:51:50] <Coren_> Have you tried to turn my brain spew into code yet?
[15:52:30] <Dark-Star> yes, it seems to work. at least for the first simple checks. I think I'll draw a polygon to make sure it works...
[16:12:21] --- Darke is now known as DarkeZzz
[16:18:56] <Dark-Star> Coren_: there seem to be some minor problems with < and <= here, and I need a special case for horizontal lines...
[16:24:09] * Coren_ thinks.
[16:25:17] <Coren_> Yes, you are correct; the selection test should be (y1<=yt && yt<y2) || (y1<yt && yt<=y2)
[16:26:06] * Dark-Star has it _almost_ correct now...
[16:26:08] <Coren_> Presuming you want to decree that points lying /on/ the polygon edge are not inside the polygon (which is, generally, the correct thing to do)
[16:26:27] <Dark-Star> the horizontal line check needs some tweaking...
[16:26:34] <Coren_> With the selection test above, you need not special case horizontal lines.
[16:27:05] <Coren_> (y1<=yt && yt<y2) || (y1<yt && yt<=y2) cannot be true for (y1==y2)
[16:27:21] <Dark-Star> that's true, I think I was trying to get the edge pixels too...
[16:27:27] <Dark-Star> hmmm...
[16:28:00] * Dark-Star checks the documentation whether it's specified or not if edge pixels count as "inside"
[16:28:16] <Coren_> Don't because then you get into a whole mess of problems cause by aliasing. You really want to think of your polygon as mathematical lines (hence the count of x<xt and not x<=xt)
[16:28:18] <Colourless> you 2 were discussing this earlier weren't you
[16:28:35] <wjp> yeah, it's in the logs
[16:28:43] <Coren_> Yes, Colourless.
[16:29:35] <Colourless> are you attempting to work out if a point is within a triangle or a polygon with an arbitrary number of side?
[16:29:43] <Coren_> Dark-Star: If the docs say edge pixels count, you are SOL unless it also specifies exactly the way the line segments should be rasterized. :-)
[16:30:01] <Dark-Star> Colourless: arbitrary polygon
[16:30:12] <Coren_> Colourless: arbitary polygon; our current algorithm will work for concave and self-intersecting ones too.
[16:30:24] <Colourless> icky :-)
[16:31:02] <Dark-Star> Coren_ I think I'll do it that way then (i.e. not counting edge pixels)...
[16:31:29] <Coren_> Well, technically you aren't really doing this pixel wise, though.
[16:31:37] <Colourless> ok, is it in 2d or 3d? i'm guessing 2d
[16:31:50] <Dark-Star> Colourless 2D, yes
[16:32:00] <Coren_> Which is why being 'on' an edge pixel has no meaning.
[16:32:35] <Coren_> 2d. The algorithm for knowing if a point lies inside an arbitary volume is much, much less simple. :-)
[16:32:46] <Colourless> yes i know.
[16:33:04] <Coren_> Especially if you allow concave or self-intersecting volumes. :-)
[16:34:03] <Colourless> working out if a point is withint non-convex polyhedrons isn't that 'difficult'
[16:35:01] <Dark-Star> aaah it works :-)
[16:36:49] <Colourless> the simplest way of doing it, and this works for non convex 2d polygons as well, is to cast a ray from infinity and then count the number of edges/faces that the ray goes through until it hits the point. if the number is odd, it's in within the polyhedron/polygon, and if it is even it's outside.
[16:37:14] <Colourless> s/infinity/a point known to be outside the object/
[16:38:29] <Colourless> of course it's not going to be very fast on extremely complex objects
[16:39:04] <wjp> you'll have to watch out when the ray you cast lies on one of the faces/edges
[16:41:20] <Colourless> from memory, i think there is another solution as well that uses dot products
[16:42:48] <wjp> in the 2d case?
[16:42:55] <Colourless> yes
[16:43:19] <Coren_> Yes; but it's more expensive computationally than the simple edge counting algo.
[16:43:52] <Coren_> The wone Dark-Star coded from my brain haze has one division per segment at most
[16:44:04] <Coren_> The wone. That's a good one. :-)
[16:44:54] <Colourless> are you even sure you need the division at all?
[16:44:57] <wjp> you should be able to get rid of that division
[16:45:09] <wjp> it'll cost you two multiplications, probably
[16:45:42] <Coren_> Possibly, yes, I haven't spent any cycles on optimizing this. This was all on the spur of the moment. :-)
[16:47:08] <Dark-Star> well... actually that code really doesn't _need_ to be that optimal... the polygons maybe have 10 or so vertices, and there are <100 polygons on each map...
[16:47:28] <Dark-Star> I think 1 division is good enough already ;-)
[16:47:29] <Colourless> make sure you bounding box discard first :-)
[16:47:54] <Dark-Star> Colourless: yes, the bounding box is even saved with the polygon data :)
[16:48:11] <Dark-Star> i.e. in the Infinity Engine files...
[16:48:24] <Colourless> ah, that's what you are doing :-)
[16:48:31] <Dark-Star> yep :)
[16:49:31] <Coren_> Okay, now for the stupid question: what /is/ the Infinity Engine?
[16:49:42] <Colourless> Baldurs Gate engine :-)
[16:49:44] <wjp> the engine used in Baldur's Gate and friends
[16:49:48] <Coren_> Aah!
[16:53:10] <Dark-Star> the reason I selected the Infinity Engine is that it's file formats are quite well documented ...
[17:00:34] <Coren_> Hey, cool, jk2 works fine under wine!
[17:00:47] <wjp> jk2?
[17:01:15] <Coren_> Jedi Knight 2
[17:01:30] <Colourless> well, it's a Quake 3 engine game so that wouldn't really surprise me
[17:01:49] <Coren_> Is it? Lucasarts usually roll their own.
[17:01:58] <Colourless> yep it is
[17:02:16] * Coren_ rummages for a native version.
[17:02:43] <Colourless> developed by ritual if i'm not mistaken
[17:03:51] <Coren_> At any rate, jk2 runs under wine with at least as much performance as it does under win2k. :-)
[17:04:57] <Coren_> One of my fave fps of all time.
[17:05:11] <Coren_> Mostly because I rarely shoot. light sabers rules. :-)
[17:05:36] * Colourless is mistaken, Jedi Night 2 was developed by Raven
[17:06:09] <Colourless> Ritual, Raven, Rogue... to many companies starting with R that have ties to id Software
[17:06:17] * Coren_ chuckles.
[17:06:27] <Coren_> There might even be an inside joke we are not privvy to. :-)
[17:07:08] <Colourless> well Ritual *used* to be known as Hypnotic until a trademark issue surfaced
[17:08:09] <Coren_> Hey, hey, topic switch: what's that I read in the logs about EA coming down on some rewrite?
[17:08:44] <Colourless> it's the Ultima 1 remake
[17:08:56] <wjp> EA didn't really come down on them
[17:09:07] <Coren_> Which? The only one I know of appears to be still up.
[17:09:20] <wjp> http://pub137.ezboard.com/fmrgamemakerfrm2.showMessage?topicID=698.topic
[17:09:42] <Colourless> EA was just being uncooperative and they decided to change things to prevent a possible problem in the future
[17:10:22] <Coren_> "despite our earlier permission from Richard Garriott to create this game"?
[17:10:37] <Coren_> Is that a confused delusion or an outright lie?
[17:11:05] <wjp> from what I know RG did give his permission
[17:11:19] <wjp> several years ago
[17:11:34] <Colourless> however, that is not the same as actually be licensed to use the trademarks and ip
[17:12:31] <Coren_> Last time I spoke to RG on the general topic (that was aeons ago) his official position was that he will never /have/ an official position; neither pro or con; and will ignore any such project. (Leaving EA to enforce anything they will) mostly because he doesn't /OWN/ he property anymore and wouldn't have the authority to give permission. :-)
[17:13:14] <Colourless> this all occured when he was still working at EA
[17:13:24] <wjp> you spoke to RG personally? :)
[17:13:38] <Coren_> Heh. That conversation dates to OSI still being alive and kicking. :-)
[17:13:45] <Colourless> heh
[17:13:55] <Dark-Star> BTW, is it generally a good idea to speak with a company before making any reimplementation of their engine?
[17:14:20] <Coren_> Dark-Star: For the general case, yes. Especially if you are going to play nice and require the original implementation to use yours.
[17:14:35] <Coren_> Dark-Star: EA is just being silly, however, and ignores us.
[17:14:44] <Colourless> of course many companies will just ignore you
[17:15:12] <Colourless> for a while at least anyway
[17:15:49] <Colourless> we do not know why EA has totally ignored us. They have gone after other engine remakes
[17:16:05] <Coren_> wjp: Yes, RG is a "friend" of mine [with "friend" defined loosely; i.e. we have had semi regular contact mostly by virtue of being in the same industry and having attended events simultaneously]. More like an acquaintance, really, but I did have a number of neat chats with him over the years.
[17:17:15] <Coren_> Colourless: quality. I think that while they don't /want/ to open up a can of worms by giving us permission, they have decided that we don't "soil" their property value and don't cut into their revenues and therefore are best left alone.
[17:18:12] <Colourless> i think it is also a case where we are not actually violating their Trademark
[17:19:00] <Coren_> wjp: He was particularly proud of having bought a lunar rover and was impatiently waiting for the day he could "hop over there and give it a spin". :-)
[17:20:08] <Colourless> i heard about that. he is one of the few individuals to own something on another planetary body
[17:20:27] <Coren_> Colourless: Well, actually, we technically are-- but not in a "bad" way. Apparently, someone at EA owns a clue. And I can understand their fear of giving official sanction- (a) it could be a support nightmare and (b) all the teenagers rewrite-wanabes with the game-du-jour (NWN lately, yes?) would then start demanding all sorts of things from EA.
[17:21:43] <Colourless> i try not to think about it
[17:27:53] <-- Coren_ has left IRC (Excess Flood)
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[17:28:08] <wjp> Excess Flood?
[17:28:21] <Colourless> i guess somewhere else
[17:28:46] <Coren_> "Excess flood?
[17:28:52] <Colourless> [03:54] *** Coren_ (~marc@MTL-HSE-ppp168934.qc.sympatico.ca) Quit (Excess Flood)
[17:30:01] <Coren_> How odd.
[17:32:31] <Coren_> At any rate, I always wondered why anyone would *want* to rewrite any Ux where x<4. It's not like any of them were known for their great storyline or anything. :-)
[17:33:10] <Coren_> Heck, before U4 there wasn't even a consistent or stable universe. :-)
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[18:33:06] <hebble> Hi all. I'm getting "pngio.cc:123: invalid conversion from `png_int_32*' to `png_uint_32*'" when I try to compile current cvs. Is this a known problem?
[18:33:18] <wjp> hi
[18:33:25] <wjp> hm, which version of libpng?
[18:33:43] <wjp> I had this problem when compiling on a solaris box with a rather old libpng, IIRC
[18:33:44] <Colourless> we have had that problem before
[18:33:54] <hebble> 1.0.5, I think. Guess I'll upgrade...
[18:34:34] <wjp> patching exult to work with that libpng is pretty easy too
[18:35:59] <wjp> there are two lines with "png_int_32 pngxoff, pngyoff;". Change both into "png_uint_32 pngxoff, pngyoff;"
[18:36:42] <hebble> OK, thanks; but I'd rather upgrade a library than have my source get out of sync with the official cvs. :)
[18:37:33] <wjp> upgrading libpng might cause some conflicts, though. Lots of packages depend on libpng
[18:41:21] <wjp> bbl, dinner
[19:06:00] <wjp> b
[19:23:45] <-- kuran has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[20:29:09] --- Dark-Star is now known as Dark-Star|afk
[20:39:25] <Colourless> time for me to go
[20:39:27] <Colourless> cya
[20:39:28] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("casts invisibility")
[21:50:17] <-- matto has left IRC ("This feeling.. inside me. Finally found my life, I'm finally free. No longer torn in two.")
[21:59:32] --> matto has joined #exult
[22:07:48] <-- DarkeZzz has left IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[22:28:30] --> Skutarth has joined #exult
[22:28:36] <Skutarth> hello all
[22:28:41] <Skutarth> wjp
[22:28:58] * Skutarth raises hand
[22:29:07] <Skutarth> er
[22:29:20] * Skutarth raises his hand at waits to be answered
[22:29:53] * wjp looks at Skutarth's hand curiously and keeps very very quiet :-)
[22:30:40] <Skutarth> lol
[22:30:52] <Skutarth> check the two error posts on the forum
[22:30:57] <Skutarth> mine, that is
[22:31:06] <Skutarth> tell me if you've got an idea what's wrong
[22:31:11] <Skutarth> and if you can help
[22:31:18] <Skutarth> ? hello
[22:31:22] <Skutarth> heh
[22:31:27] <matto> don't be silly, Skutarth
[22:31:33] <Skutarth> what
[22:31:38] <wjp> give me a second to read the posts, will you
[22:31:43] <Skutarth> yeah
[22:31:56] <matto> wjp isn't your employee, stop giving him orders
[22:32:03] <Skutarth> bah
[22:32:05] <Skutarth> I meant
[22:32:10] <matto> ohhhh you meant
[22:32:10] <Skutarth> could you please
[22:32:11] <wjp> do you have right SDL_mixer.dll?
[22:32:14] <matto> hehe
[22:32:17] <Skutarth> um
[22:32:19] <wjp> the right*
[22:32:28] <Skutarth> I have the one that comes with it
[22:32:34] <Skutarth> being used
[22:32:47] <wjp> do you have any other SDL_mixer.dll's floating around?
[22:32:55] <Skutarth> I don't think so
[22:33:23] <Skutarth> um
[22:33:23] <wjp> hm, the snapshots don't come with SDL_mixer.dll, IIRC
[22:33:28] <wjp> it's a separate download
[22:33:31] <Skutarth> oh
[22:33:33] <Skutarth> sec
[22:34:01] <Skutarth> which one
[22:34:20] <Skutarth> er
[22:35:09] <wjp> ?
[22:35:15] <Skutarth> oh sorry, I didn't want to sound bossy earlier, I just wanted to be quick and not waster your time
[22:35:21] <Skutarth> where do I find it?
[22:35:26] <Skutarth> the right dll I mean
[22:35:29] <wjp> try the download page :-)
[22:35:37] <Skutarth> I can't find it
[22:35:40] <Skutarth> which section
[22:35:47] <wjp> which section would you guess?
[22:36:00] <Skutarth> additional files?
[22:36:27] <Skutarth> hmm
[22:36:31] <wjp> there's an 'additional files' section? :-)
[22:36:47] <wjp> it's the 'required file for 1.1.x snapshots' link
[22:36:50] <Skutarth> perhaps the required file for Exult 1.1.x snapshots
[22:36:52] <Skutarth> heh
[22:36:58] * Skutarth looks really stupid
[22:37:02] <Skutarth> sooo
[22:37:29] <Skutarth> did you guys ever fixed the problem where Exult doesn't respond to Exult Studio?
[22:37:46] <wjp> you'll have to ask Colourless (if you mean in windows)
[22:37:53] <Skutarth> in Micro$oft Windows XP at least
[22:38:07] <Skutarth> M$
[22:38:12] <Skutarth> :)
[22:38:40] <Skutarth> Corporate rulers of the future!
[22:38:41] <Skutarth> :)
[22:38:46] <Skutarth> brb
[22:38:48] <Skutarth> I'll try it
[22:39:57] <Skutarth> btw
[22:40:22] <Skutarth> I'll change all the music to MP3's if you ever decide to go from MIDI to MP3
[22:40:30] <Skutarth> if you want me to
[22:40:32] <Skutarth> btw
[22:40:34] <Skutarth> it works
[22:41:07] <Skutarth> what's the map-edit key?
[22:41:13] <Skutarth> combo
[22:41:17] <Skutarth> quick whatever?
[22:41:21] <wjp> we already support full digital .ogg music
[22:41:29] <Skutarth> um
[22:41:35] <Skutarth> what about MP3's?
[22:41:37] <wjp> ctrl-alt-m I think
[22:41:41] <Skutarth> thx
[22:41:41] <wjp> what about them?
[22:41:53] <Skutarth> I can't remake the songs in mp3
[22:41:55] <Skutarth> easily
[22:41:58] <Skutarth> er
[22:41:58] --- Dark-Star|afk is now known as Dark-Star
[22:41:59] <Skutarth> can't
[22:42:01] <Skutarth> lol
[22:42:20] <Skutarth> I CAN remake the songs in mp3 easily
[22:42:47] <wjp> we already have the songs in .ogg format available for download
[22:43:57] <Skutarth> where?
[22:44:05] <wjp> you get one guess :-)
[22:44:18] <Skutarth> on the internet!
[22:44:20] <Skutarth> I win!
[22:44:46] * Dark-Star lols
[22:45:00] <Skutarth> so
[22:45:10] <Skutarth> Libraries?
[22:45:18] <Skutarth> no
[22:45:18] <Skutarth> no
[22:45:29] <Skutarth> The Pentagram section!
[22:45:40] * wjp waits patiently while Skutarth actually reads through the download page
[22:45:58] <Skutarth> Ah
[22:45:59] <Skutarth> I see
[22:46:05] <Skutarth> the discussion section
[22:46:11] <Skutarth> or maybe the screenshots
[22:46:32] * wjp is wondering whether Skutarth is trying to be funny or if he really can't find the oggs
[22:46:36] <Skutarth> I don't see it
[22:47:00] <Skutarth> I looked all the way through the Links section and I don't see it
[22:47:17] <wjp> did you also check the download page?
[22:47:25] <Skutarth> why would it be there?
[22:47:33] <Skutarth> I bet it's not
[22:47:36] <wjp> lol
[22:47:47] <Skutarth> just kiddin
[22:47:49] <Skutarth> I found it
[22:48:03] <Skutarth> It just won't make the download thing pop up
[22:48:26] <Skutarth> neither of them
[22:48:28] <wjp> you get linked to a webpage first before the actual download
[22:48:38] <Skutarth> it's not going there
[22:48:46] <wjp> works for me
[22:49:13] <wjp> you can also download them from the "For a full list, ..." link further up the page
[22:49:22] <Skutarth> ahA
[22:49:37] <Skutarth> it loaded
[22:49:39] <Skutarth> finally
[22:51:21] <Skutarth> tears hair out
[22:51:27] <Skutarth> IT'S TAKING SO LONG
[22:51:34] <wjp> try a different mirror
[22:51:52] <wjp> some of these mirrors have _really_ fast connections
[22:52:02] <wjp> (of course it depends on your ISP what speed you get)
[22:52:36] <Skutarth> takes the time on the download window this time
[22:52:43] <Skutarth> :(
[22:52:44] <wjp> (e.g., I get several megabyte/s from one of those mirrors from my university account :-) )
[22:53:01] <Skutarth> what university?
[22:53:16] <wjp> Leiden (in the Netherlands)
[22:53:20] <Skutarth> cool
[22:53:29] <Skutarth> I know where you live
[22:53:43] <Skutarth> I know where you sleep
[22:53:49] <wjp> scary :-)
[22:54:06] <Skutarth> you sleep in a bed in the netherlands, right?
[22:54:09] <Skutarth> :)
[22:55:03] <Skutarth> the second one is not working
[22:55:07] <Skutarth> 2 of 2
[22:55:14] <Skutarth> the link, that is
[22:56:07] <Skutarth> could you please send me it
[22:56:17] <Skutarth> since the link doesn't want to work for me?
[22:56:22] <wjp> no
[22:56:26] <Skutarth> please?
[22:56:36] --- Skutarth is now known as Chuckles
[22:56:37] * Dark-Star rofls
[22:56:37] <wjp> just try again in a minute or so
[22:56:48] --- Chuckles is now known as Skutarth
[22:57:14] <Skutarth> Did you know
[22:57:16] <Skutarth> ?
[22:57:35] <Skutarth> I need scissors! 61!
[22:57:47] * Skutarth wiggles his ears
[22:57:54] * Skutarth wiggles wjp's ears
[22:58:09] * Skutarth wiggles Lord British's ears
[22:58:34] * Skutarth sniffs his pinky
[22:58:41] * wjp drops 61 scissors on Skutarth; sharp points down
[22:58:42] * Dark-Star wonders whar Skutarth wants with 61 scissors...
[22:58:56] * Skutarth passes his pinky to wjp for him to sniff
[22:59:05] <Skutarth> nah
[22:59:15] <Skutarth> that's from Metal Gear Solid 2
[22:59:16] * wjp borrows one of Skutarth's scissors to... decorate his pinky
[22:59:36] * Skutarth pokes wjp
[22:59:48] * Skutarth sniffs his finger after poking wjp
[22:59:59] * wjp pokes back with some more scissors
[23:00:14] <Skutarth> ha
[23:00:28] <Skutarth> I had my flapjaw tuning fork activated!
[23:01:35] <Skutarth> it didn't work
[23:01:45] <Skutarth> but only the gods can tell
[23:02:32] * Skutarth picks his nose and offers the finger to wjp, with his flapjaw tuning fork activated, of course!
[23:04:13] <Skutarth> It's STILL NOT WORKING
[23:04:13] <Skutarth> L:KDJF:LKSFJGSFD!
[23:04:13] <Skutarth> ($^%@(#^$(&^(!*&$%!!!
[23:04:57] * Skutarth looks very frustrated right now, perhaps you should help him?
[23:05:17] <Skutarth> where do I put the .ogg files, btw?
[23:06:05] * Skutarth slaps Skutarth around a bit with a large trout
[23:06:11] <Skutarth> heh
[23:06:24] * Skutarth slaps Skutarth around a bit with a large trout
[23:10:31] --> slacked has joined #exult
[23:14:02] <Skutarth> hey
[23:14:09] <Skutarth> where do I put the .ogg files
[23:16:37] <Skutarth> oh
[23:19:33] <slacked> okay
[23:19:47] <slacked> in your data directory under a folder called 'music
[23:19:51] <slacked> what OS are you running?
[23:20:23] <slacked> Skutarth I think ive seen you on the forums begging for an ultima 7 online
[23:20:25] <slacked> :P
[23:20:29] <slacked> it would be good
[23:21:24] <slacked> but i dont think its gonna happen
[23:21:25] <slacked> hehe
[23:26:35] --> kuran has joined #exult
[23:33:26] <Skutarth> hehehe
[23:33:36] <Skutarth> your a veteran I see
[23:33:47] * Skutarth dies
[23:33:50] <-- Skutarth has left IRC ()
[23:50:10] <Coren_> What a demanding little twerp!
[23:50:56] * wjp nods
[23:55:31] <slacked> lol
[23:55:33] <slacked> me?
[23:55:36] <slacked> yeh I know i am
[23:55:56] <wjp> not you :-)
[23:56:22] <slacked> skutarth has been in so many arguments
[23:56:23] <slacked> hehe
[23:56:26] <slacked> but i am demanding
[23:56:37] <slacked> esxpecially when i go into #wineX
[23:56:43] <slacked> those damn transgaming people
[23:57:32] <slacked> they make the CVS purposely buggy so we 'subscribe' to the pre-compiled packages
[23:58:18] <slacked> I'
[23:58:26] <slacked> I'm glad exult was never like that
[23:58:39] <slacked> still isn't
[23:58:47] <wjp> that's pretty evil
[23:59:01] <slacked> and about the party formation... I know you're going to roll your eyes at this one... but just hear me out :)
[23:59:09] <Coren_> That's also a direct violation of the GPL, actually.
[23:59:11] * wjp rolls his eyes ;-)
[23:59:13] <slacked> K, I like the party formation
[23:59:17] <slacked> I like it!
[23:59:18] <slacked> BUT
[23:59:18] * Coren_ rolls his eyes.
[23:59:22] <slacked> major but here
[23:59:25] <slacked> umm
[23:59:32] <slacked> party members walk in front of me
[23:59:37] <slacked> thats the only problem i have with it
[23:59:46] <slacked> everything else is fine