#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 6 May 2002 (GMT)

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[00:17:40] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("Exult! Exult! Exult!")
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[08:11:08] <shazza`> anyone here
[08:11:09] <shazza`> :D
[08:11:33] <Darke> Hi.
[08:11:43] * Darke is obviously here. *grin*
[08:11:55] <shazza`> I would like a spoiler plz
[08:11:55] <shazza`> :D
[08:12:28] <Darke> A spolier for what/where? *grin*
[08:12:40] <shazza`> For SI, how do i get to castle british?
[08:13:30] <Darke> Don't know. I've never played SI. *grin*
[08:13:54] <Darke> Wait a bit and sb-x or someone else will surely drop in and be able to give you an answer to that. *grin*
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[09:21:37] <sb-x> bleh
[09:21:49] <sb-x> Darke: Surely you know I have not played through SI yet?
[09:22:02] * sb-x will real soon now.
[09:22:11] <Darke> Hi sb-x. *grin*
[09:22:18] <sb-x> hi
[09:23:10] * Darke finally gets a chance to hit the forum to see if anything interesting has happened today.
[09:24:34] <sb-x> :-)
[09:25:05] * sb-x wonders if it will become the new rgcud
[09:25:51] <Darke> If it does, we'll certainly need to move to a new forum system. *grin* Just so we can filter out 'exult stuff' from 'random stuff'. *grin*
[09:27:53] <sb-x> the system Gentoo's site uses?
[09:27:53] <sb-x> everything is Gentoo for you now
[09:30:11] <Darke> Actually, no. I tripped over phpbb quite some time ago, even before it became 2.0. The main reason I thought it would be good, is that I noticed the gentoo.org one happened to have a 'news' section up the top where you could put important noticed. *grin* I wouldn't have bothered mentioning it otherwise.
[09:30:28] <Darke> s/noticed/notices/
[09:33:07] * sb-x nods.
[09:33:23] <sb-x> Ah... Ok. Yeah, everything is Gentoo for you now.
[09:33:49] <Darke> No actually, I've got one machine rebooted into suse at the moment. *grin*
[09:37:34] <sb-x> Heh... I understand.
[09:37:34] * sb-x nods.
[09:37:34] <sb-x> all Gentoo
[09:53:11] * Darke is teaching somebun on irc how to code in C++, who hasn't coded in a programming language before. It's actually far easier to bootstrap them in C++, then it is in Java for some reason.
[09:58:58] * sb-x studied it last week.
[09:59:27] <sb-x> it didn't take me very long, but I still read it slowly
[09:59:39] <Darke> Here's a _very_ good, if a little out of date tutorial on it: http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/
[09:59:56] <sb-x> and I still have to learn some more about exceptions, and I know nothing about the STL or any of the standard objects :P
[10:01:16] <Darke> Of course, the bit missing in that tutorial is the 'introduction to the stl'. *grin*
[10:01:34] <sb-x> since learning the C++ basics I can finally learn QT, it looks much simpler than GTK+
[10:02:05] <sb-x> simpler meaning cleaner, signals/slots looks neat
[10:02:05] <sb-x> hmm
[10:02:05] * sb-x checks
[10:02:19] * Darke noddles.
[10:02:36] <sb-x> hey that looks good thanks
[10:02:54] <sb-x> the tutorial I used was even more dated
[10:03:48] <Darke> Yeah. The cynic in me notes they are all about the 'date' of the end of the webadvertising boom. *grin*
[10:05:31] <sb-x> hmm >:)
[10:06:02] <sb-x> well, the one I'm talking about didn't discuss namespaces and said exceptions and so called parameterized types were brand new
[10:09:06] <sb-x> the main reason for learning was to be able to read exult and blackbox code
[10:09:24] <Darke> Here's a quick and dirty 'C++ for C programmers': http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/cppcen.html looks up to date.
[10:09:30] <sb-x> Darke do you want to be a programmer for Opera? they are hiring
[10:10:47] <Darke> It depends if they're practicing distributed programming, or I actually have to be where the rest of their programmers are. *grin* In the latter case it'd really depend upon where I have to move to.
[10:12:00] <sb-x> that page looks especially nice, and to the point
[10:12:00] <sb-x> Norway? i think
[10:12:11] <sb-x> i'm not sure
[10:12:18] <Darke> Yeah, absolutely 0% fluff and ads. *grin*
[10:13:00] <sb-x> inline methods can't have for loops or the like?
[10:13:11] <sb-x> functions
[10:13:25] <Darke> Here's a very short overview of vectors, IMHO, it's not very useful, but it may be to you: http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/stl/vector.html
[10:14:56] <Darke> (inline) I'm pretty sure that's platform and compiler specific.
[10:15:43] * Darke expects a short, unrolled loop would be inlined in some compilers, for instance.
[10:16:57] <sb-x> whats the difference in "ends" and "endl"
[10:17:38] <sb-x> and what makes the stl vector document non-useful? :)
[10:17:44] <Darke> 'ends' ends a string (the equilivant of '\0', but may not be implemented like that.), whereas 'endl' ends a line (that is, does the equilivant of '\n').
[10:18:38] <sb-x> is 'endl' ever '\r\n' ?
[10:18:47] <Darke> It's very blunt and doesn't tell you why it's using one thing over another, nor does it tell you about the more useful features and so on.
[10:19:17] <Darke> '\n' is the equilivant of '\r\n' on 'windows' boxes when a file is opened in text mode.
[10:20:07] <sb-x> how do you reallocate memory in C++ ? im using new as i used malloc, and delete as free, but I don't have the equivalent to "realloc"
[10:20:07] <sb-x> oh ok
[10:23:28] <Darke> Hmm... I don't think there's a 'realloc' under C++. I've never actually used it anyway. If you want to resize a vector to be bigger, you just vector::resize() to something greater then the original size, and it keeps the original data, as if you'd used realloc on a 'normal' array.
[10:24:27] * Darke has pretty much given up on 'new' created static arrays, vectors are just that bit more flexable once you get used to them, and you can pass them as static arrays into functions that need them, if you need to.
[10:25:37] <sb-x> oooh :)
[10:26:11] * sb-x has always called his own arrays vectors.
[10:27:28] <Darke> `vector<char> v(10, '\0');` creates a vector of 10 chars, all set to null. `strcpy("foo", &v[0]);` should work as you would expect a 'normal' array to work, if I've got the parameters and such around the right way. *grin*
[10:28:20] <Darke> Of course, if I were to be using it as a string, I'd be using a std::string, but that's just an example. *grin*
[10:30:08] <sb-x> char * is obsolete?
[10:31:02] <Darke> Technically yes, practically no. *grin*
[10:31:55] <sb-x> strcpy("foo", &v[0]); you copy into a char constant???
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[10:41:15] <sb-x> Darke: &v[0] == v?
[10:41:44] <Darke> Reverse the operators. It's been years since I've used strcpy(). *grin*
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[10:42:58] <sb-x> so strcpy(v, "foo"); should work? that is notation i use for strings
[10:43:27] <sb-x> never used &v[i] where i = 0
[10:43:56] <sb-x> if i > 0 then i've used it
[10:45:44] <Darke> I think you need the &v[0], since otherwise you'll get the address of the class, not of the datasegment inside the class.
[10:46:25] * Darke notes this only works for std::vectors and std::strings, IIRC.
[10:46:49] <sb-x> are these &, [, ] overloaded somehow or how does the vector pretend to be a normal array?
[10:52:07] <Darke> Internally the spec says that the vector should be able to be used like a normal array by taking the address of the first value in it.
[10:53:54] <sb-x> okay...
[10:53:59] * Darke wishes he could find a webpage to back that up though. He's used it, and it seems to work, but the information came from a lecturer known for his dubious pronouncements. *grin*
[10:54:20] <sb-x> if you do a 'using namespace;' does 'namespace' have to be a declared namespace? :)
[10:57:29] <Darke> I really don't think you can just use `using namespace;`. *grin*
[10:58:04] <Darke> You have to either use `using namespace foo;` or `using foo::bar;`.
[10:59:19] <sb-x> then
[10:59:32] <sb-x> if you do a 'using namespace anamespace;' does 'anamespace' have to be a declared namespace? :)
[11:01:04] <Darke> I don't think so. *grin* Try.
[11:01:27] <Darke> It wouldn't have any effect anyway, there's nothing in it, so it doesn't 'overload' any types/functions. *grin*
[11:02:01] <sb-x> i was thinking if it were a class
[11:02:11] <sb-x> or structure
[11:02:26] <sb-x> you could variables in that without doing class::identifier
[11:03:01] <sb-x> use-^
[11:03:09] <Darke> Nah. Classes are different to namespaces.
[11:03:18] <Darke> Even though they look very similar. *grin*
[11:05:23] <Darke> If you want a bunch of functions, that are related to each other, and either operate on global data of which there is always one set, or use no global data. You could drop them into a namespace and use them like that. But you'd be better off using classes. Namespaces are more used for a bunch of functions, that don't really have much in common, except they just happen to be in a library, and you don't want to accidentally cause conflicts, if you'
[11:05:23] <Darke> re working with another library with similar function names.
[11:06:26] <sb-x> i was just thinking of being able to use the same identifiers for different variables, and switching between scopes depending on where you are
[11:06:46] <sb-x> not that I will need to use that... just pondering
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[11:18:07] * sb-x reads the "Savage Empire" manual for no reason in particular.
[11:18:34] * Darke considered using namespaces and similarly labeled classes to implement a debugging system on a program basis, but for most things a newing a 'debug class' rather then the original is better.
[11:19:42] <sb-x> reminds me, did you have to do something to GDB to use it with pentagram?
[11:20:36] <Darke> No, I had to upgrade my gdb to a version that works with gcc3.0.4. *grin* That was my problem.
[11:21:46] <shazza`> hey
[11:21:47] <shazza`> sb-x
[11:21:50] <shazza`> I would like to be spoiled
[11:21:51] <shazza`> :D
[11:21:57] <shazza`> how do i get to brittania in SI
[11:22:35] <sb-x> SI is separate from britannia
[11:22:43] <shazza`> but
[11:22:46] <sb-x> separated
[11:22:54] <shazza`> you can get to castle brittish
[11:23:31] <sb-x> guess it is his original castle from the early ultimas
[11:23:53] <sb-x> i said earlier, i havnt played si through yet
[11:24:56] <sb-x> there is shamino's castle
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[11:30:51] <Darke> sb-x: For when you read the logs, there's also this site for 'learning' C++: http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/C++/ It's in lecture slide format, but doesn't seem too bad either.
[11:35:15] <Darke> sb-x: Lectures 10-12 look especially useful, even though the rest may be of minimal use.
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[11:40:24] <Darke> sb-x: This doesn't look to bad either, although I haven't really looked over it very much yet. http://www.glenmccl.com/tutor.htm
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[12:03:03] <Dominus> Hi, I'm only here for a short hop! :-)
[12:03:50] <Darke> Hi!
[12:04:02] * Darke thinks his message the the exultML was nicely timed then. *grin*
[12:04:30] <Dominus> Kirben, can you include the files for a new Studio game in the snapshot? it's in /data/estudio and should be in that structure in the snapshot as well (/data/estudio/...)
[12:04:49] <Dominus> Darke: yes. You were actually my next suspect! :-)
[12:05:15] <Kirben> Dominus:yes, was not sure it I needed them or not.
[12:05:20] * Darke looks innocent, and certainly not at all suspicious!
[12:05:52] <Kirben> Dominus: so include all /data/estudio file and place them in data directory ?
[12:06:03] <Dominus> Kirben: it only needs them when you want to start editing a new game so I wasn't sure either until I tried just now :-)
[12:06:36] <Dominus> Kirben: yes (containing the /new/*.* of course :-))
[12:08:02] <Dominus> thanks! And of course the Exult snap needs updating now that Darke has fixed running it! :-)
[12:08:33] <Kirben> yep, was recompiling already.
[12:08:38] * Darke looks even more innocent. If that's at all possible. *grin*
[12:10:06] <Dominus> ok, got to go again. See you tomorrow!
[12:10:14] <Dominus> thanks Kirben!
[12:10:17] <Dominus> bye
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[12:23:50] <shazza`> How come on exult
[12:23:56] <shazza`> in the restaurants
[12:23:59] <shazza`> there are no plates
[12:24:02] <shazza`> ;_;
[12:37:28] <Darke> Umm... I dunno. I remember there being plates and such in the inns of britannia.
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[12:52:22] <V0|D> hi
[12:53:22] <shazza`> void
[12:53:24] <shazza`> do you know how to
[12:53:27] <shazza`> get to
[12:53:32] <shazza`> Castle Brittish on SI
[12:53:48] <V0|D> no, sorry. i havnt played SI much
[12:54:00] <shazza`> I like BG better
[12:54:01] <shazza`> :}
[12:54:19] <V0|D> :) why is that?
[12:54:45] <shazza`> more towns
[12:55:23] <V0|D> ahhh i c
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[13:22:39] <Colourless> hi
[13:22:55] <Fingolfin> yo
[13:23:18] <V0|D> hi
[13:26:22] <Colourless> darke: you broke the pentagram Flex class somehow. it no longer throws/catches a exception if the file it attempts to open doesn't exist
[13:29:21] <Darke> Hi Colourless. Umm... No problem. I'll hunt it down. It might have been fixed by the change I just made.
[13:29:35] <Colourless> nope, it wasn't
[13:29:39] <Darke> Hi Fingolfin too. *grin*
[13:30:17] <Fingolfin> Darke: no, now I won't accept it anymore. I am now mortally offended because you ignored me!
[13:31:55] * Darke opens up the door to his time machine and tosses the 'Hi' back into the past, hopefully getting to Fingolfin _before_ he even arrives on the channel.
[13:32:36] <Fingolfin> oops, where did that get from?
[13:32:37] <Fingolfin> [15:16 Uhr] <Darke> Hi Fingolfin
[13:32:37] <Fingolfin> [15:17 Uhr] *** You have joined the channel
[13:32:56] <Fingolfin> Darke: oh ok, forget what I said then, i overlooked it =)
[13:33:06] * Darke snickers.
[13:33:20] <Colourless> updated pentagram disasm committed
[13:34:13] <Darke> Colourless: Weird. I didn't modify Flex::Flex (I think) and it does exactly that...
[13:34:16] <Darke> Thanks.
[13:34:56] <Darke> viewer/Flex.cc lines 35-40 are the relevant ones. And they look 'correct'.
[13:35:15] <Colourless> stream stuff i think
[13:35:33] <Colourless> make sure that the ifstream U7Open is actualyl throwing an exception
[13:35:52] <Darke> Maybe it's throwing something other then a file_open_exception.
[13:36:02] <Colourless> it's not throwing any exception
[13:36:06] <Darke> There's also the case that the 'quit' flag might be set in an incorrect state.
[13:37:17] <Colourless> ugh, i see the problem
[13:37:28] <Colourless> U7open doesn't throw an excpetion
[13:37:31] <Darke> U7open for istreams is throwing an exception.
[13:38:07] <Colourless> your modifications to Flex::Flex for ifstream include modifications ot get the exit func to work
[13:39:04] <Colourless> of course not even exit is being called
[13:39:35] * Darke blinks. Eh?
[13:39:40] <Colourless> compile mapdisp
[13:39:44] <Colourless> remove nonfixed.day
[13:39:47] <Colourless> .dat
[13:39:52] <Colourless> run mapdisp
[13:40:07] <Colourless> it is supposed to exit if nonfixed.dat doesn't exist
[13:40:13] <Colourless> of course it still continues to run
[13:41:30] * Darke test and nods and goes back to debugging.
[13:51:15] <Darke> For some reason, U7open(ifstream, ...), just isn't throwing an exception. It's catching one around in.open(), which is acceptable, then it should be throwing one at the end, but it isn't.
[13:51:42] * Darke throws an assert("Can't Happen!") after the call to throw.
[13:53:17] <Colourless> :-)
[13:53:49] <Darke> Which doesn't get called... so in theory. It's either not calling that function, or it's throwing the exception, which we can't seem to catch. *boggle*
[13:54:10] <Colourless> well, put it before
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[13:55:02] * Darke drops an assert("Can happen!") before it.
[13:55:37] <Darke> And the assert doesn't get called either... so it technically must have 'found' it. Eh? *sigh*
[13:56:06] <Colourless> something stupid is occuring there
[13:56:16] <Colourless> cause the problem is effecting all of us
[13:56:21] <Darke> Yeah.
[13:57:14] <Colourless> it must be returning here:
[13:57:15] <Colourless> if (in.good())
[13:57:15] <Colourless> return; // found it!
[13:57:32] <Darke> Call me paranoid, but there is _one_ and only _one_ file which contains the defintions of U7open in it, right?
[13:57:46] <Colourless> yeah
[13:57:49] * Darke has an assert before the do {} and it's still failing.
[13:57:57] <Darke> Aka, not asserting.
[13:58:11] * Colourless tries
[13:59:14] * Darke adds logging messages
[13:59:48] <Colourless> ah
[14:00:05] <Colourless> your problem was that assert only works if it's parameter is 0
[14:00:50] * Darke thwaps himself and is obviously asleep at the moment. He's not using his wrapper is he. *sigh*
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[14:03:07] <wjp> hi
[14:03:13] <Darke> Hi.
[14:03:17] <Colourless> hi
[14:04:09] <Colourless> darke: adding && !in.fail()) causes an exception to be thrown
[14:04:56] <Colourless> however, Flex::Flex is still broken beause U7open does in.clear() before throwing the exception
[14:05:34] <Colourless> the in.clear() call should be moved before the try statement
[14:06:15] <Colourless> yay worked :-)
[14:06:26] <Darke> But shouldn't it be catching those std::exceptions? Since it tries to open a number of 'obviously' incorrrect files?
[14:06:58] <Colourless> it is catching tem
[14:07:33] <Darke> Fair enough. *grin* Feel free to commit with your changes. And I'll add a 'Yay!' to join yours. *grin*
[14:07:44] <Colourless> :-)
[14:08:12] <Darke> You might want to make the same changes to U7open for ofstreams too. I think they might have the same problem.
[14:08:49] <Darke> Hmm... it doesn't try to catch the std::exception though in U7open(ofstream...)
[14:09:37] <Colourless> i wonder what the point of base_to_uppercase in ofstream is
[14:09:59] <Colourless> it's not like you can know if your case is wrong when opening an output file
[14:10:02] <Darke> 'twas just thinking that. There doesn't seem to be any.
[14:10:58] <Colourless> i think i'll leave it to someone else to change
[14:12:02] * Darke gets the impression the 'someone else' will likely be him, now he knows it's 'wrong'. *grin*
[14:12:18] <Colourless> :-)
[14:12:41] <Darke> Not now though, I'm only allowed to break the cvs in each project once a week. *grin*
[14:12:54] <Colourless> aww. :-)
[14:13:26] * Darke marks down 'Break exult _and_ pentagram trees today' seven days henceforth in his diary.
[14:15:23] <Colourless> comitted
[14:19:10] * Darke likes Colourless' description of the update to disasm.cc. *grin*
[14:19:46] <Colourless> too bad there was a typo :-)
[14:33:37] * Darke has gotten used to all but the most obvious typos. He's discovered that most people who can spell, have 'finger problems' that result in their letters being transposed, and the ones who don't, just can't spell most words anyway. *grin*
[14:33:56] * Darke ducks being his asbestos shielding.
[14:34:29] <Colourless> :-)
[15:33:49] <V0|D> bye
[15:33:55] <Colourless> cya
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[16:41:14] <wjp> oh my god... I _REALLY_ can't believe this... somebody just _shot_ a politician here
[16:41:34] <wjp> I mean... this is holland... this is supposed to be a peaceful quiet little country
[16:42:05] <Colourless> gee
[16:42:14] <Darke> Ouch.
[16:42:34] <wjp> sure, he had some radical ideas, but you don't just _shoot_ somebody for that?!
[16:42:40] * wjp just can't believe it
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[17:38:55] <Darke> Welcome back.
[17:39:20] <Colourless> thanks
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[19:26:55] <Darke> Night all.
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[22:00:40] <Colourless> hmm. ok. i search for my name in google, and the number 1 result is.... the pentagram changelog !! :-)
[22:01:12] <Colourless> i have to wonder how that works
[22:02:46] <wjp> if you search on colourless your homepage shows up on the first page
[22:03:27] <Colourless> it does?
[22:04:23] <Colourless> i search for colourless and it doesn't
[22:04:43] <Colourless> of course if i search for my name and colourless it does
[22:04:59] <wjp> http://www.on.net/~triforce/, right?
[22:05:04] <Colourless> yeah
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[22:12:23] <old_ex> Hiho!
[22:12:28] --- old_ex is now known as excessus
[22:12:29] <wjp> hi
[22:12:44] <excessus> Are you one of the Exult Team?
[22:12:55] <wjp> yeah
[22:12:59] * excessus bows
[22:13:00] <wjp> did I post that little on the forum lately? :-)
[22:13:19] <excessus> congratulations for such an incredible work. You keep my life being happy :)
[22:13:29] <wjp> thanks :-)
[22:13:42] <excessus> I came here to rub my eyes a bit after doing battle with Exult Studio :)
[22:14:41] <excessus> I am still unable to save my map... Exult unceremoniously comes back to desktop... <sigh>
[22:15:33] <wjp> I'm afraid I'm the wrong person to ask about exult studio :/
[22:15:54] <excessus> oh i see... what you have you done, if you are not busy and I may ask myself? :)
[22:16:11] <wjp> not much lately
[22:16:28] <wjp> I've been working on a runtime usecode debugger, most recently
[22:16:43] <excessus> I have you... the Windows port, the BeOS port, cheat subsystem, header optimization and more
[22:17:09] <excessus> ooh but I'm sure Exult Studio will benefit of that usecode debugger, sire ;)
[22:17:15] <wjp> windows port is ancient history, BeOS won't run on my machine anymore, haven't added any cheats in ages
[22:17:19] <wjp> :-)
[22:17:37] <excessus> still :)
[22:17:53] <excessus> I have wet dreams with the day I can create my own Ultima world ;)
[22:24:34] * excessus coughs :)
[22:26:12] <excessus> ahm... well keep up the good work... i am leaving you :)
[22:26:27] <wjp> see you later
[22:27:08] <excessus> b-bye... and thanks. honest. :)
[22:27:10] <-- excessus has left IRC ()
[22:33:26] --> Sslaxx has joined #Exult
[22:33:35] <Sslaxx> Hi.
[22:33:38] <wjp> hi
[22:33:47] * Sslaxx hands out strawberries.
[22:33:51] <Sslaxx> How is everyone?
[22:33:53] <Colourless> hi
[22:34:02] <wjp> pretty good, thanks
[22:34:17] <Sslaxx> Good!
[22:44:47] <-- Sslaxx has left IRC ("[BX] Mr. Peanut uses BitchX. Shouldn't you?")
[23:08:38] <wjp> yay, RH73 released today
[23:23:51] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("time to go")