#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 6 Oct 2004 (GMT)

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[06:16:27] <servus> ooh, good, i got rejected for a saturday date. i can work on exult then >.<
[06:26:10] <sbx> Ouch... I'm glad you are seeing the bright side of things.
[06:38:54] * servus beats Iolo up... start stealing Jaana from me!!!
[06:40:05] <servus> How can I tell if an object is a Field_object? I want to replace those with particle systems.
[06:41:17] <sbx> What objects are those?
[06:42:16] <servus> I reckon that those are the fire fields, poison fields, etc.
[06:47:23] <sbx> Did you see the dancing statues?
[06:48:29] <sbx> Pretty funny :)
[06:49:13] <sbx> (03ff 0708 000)
[06:49:21] <sbx> (03ff 070b 000)
[06:51:43] <servus> Huh? I see no statues there.
[06:52:22] <sbx> (0406 070b 000)
[06:53:07] <sbx> (0409 06f4 000)
[06:53:22] <sbx> then you can see both sides
[06:53:24] <servus> Oh, yes, I saw those in SI. I posted a screenshot :P
[06:53:32] <sbx> they don't dance in a picture!
[06:53:42] <servus> Dunno why they dance. Guess I still have some trouble with getting a shape's origin =-/
[06:54:30] <servus> That's terrible. I read Sosarian at full speed =-/
[07:43:24] <servus> Yay, working translucency.
[07:43:30] <servus> That is, with correct colours.
[07:46:55] <sbx> Oh
[07:47:03] <sbx> Like the windows at fellowship halls?
[07:47:35] <servus> Right, and greenhouses and clouds and the guardian's face.
[07:47:53] <servus> Gonna see if I can squeeze in some camera rotation before I go to bed (i have yet another very long day coming up :()
[07:48:03] <sbx> Gah, I want to look through the fellowship windows in first-person mode.
[07:48:18] <sbx> ...and then break the windows, climb in through them, and steal the donations box.
[07:48:43] <servus> http://4.60.183.93/images/screenshots/Exult3D-19.jpg :P
[07:50:32] <sbx> ooh
[07:50:37] <sbx> Environmental.
[07:50:49] <servus> That pic is a fake, btw:)
[07:51:22] <sbx> But now you have to implement it!
[07:51:43] <servus> I hope to, I need a vacation for coding.
[07:51:59] <sbx> and for dating
[07:52:02] <servus> Grr
[08:36:19] <servus> I am locking the camera to always look at the avatar.
[08:36:31] <servus> So mew.
[08:37:03] <servus> The camera position itself will be changeable. I will switch the camera and camera-target relationship when you go into first-person mode, I guess.
[08:48:56] <sbx> Do what to who?
[08:49:07] <sbx> oy
[08:49:26] <sbx> so in first-person mode you can use the arcball
[08:49:43] <servus> Yeah, not sure how I'm gonna do things.
[08:49:53] <servus> I'm really mostly used to having the camera have a position, and a rotation.
[08:50:03] <servus> I'm currently playing with having a position, and a look-at-position
[08:51:48] <sbx> I just want to be able to rotate around the Avatar left-right & up-down. (in 3rd person)
[08:51:57] <sbx> How about Zoom?
[08:52:04] <sbx> (or camera distance)
[08:52:26] <sbx> That'd be nice too.
[08:52:43] <servus> Well you'd have full freedom in both modes, except that in the look-at mode, it'd only really make sense to keep looking at the avatar
[08:53:15] <servus> Heh, ok, you can move the camera by dragging a piece of cheese around the room now :>
[08:54:16] <sbx> Cheese-mode
[08:54:23] <sbx> Yes by rotate around the Avatar I mean keeping it on him.
[08:54:41] <servus> Right, I keep on the avatar in this mode.
[08:55:04] <servus> Whoa! Super trippy.
[08:55:18] <sbx> with the two modes you can pretty much look at anything, assuming you position the Avatar properly.
[08:55:33] <sbx> Did you eat the old cheese?
[08:55:41] <servus> I'm playing with gluLookAt, right now, which takes arguments of eye position and lookat position.
[08:55:42] <sbx> What's trippy...
[08:55:45] <sbx> oh
[08:55:59] <servus> When I move the eye position, it kinda rotates the camera in a funny way..
[08:56:08] <servus> It's nauseating. I don't like it.
[08:56:23] <servus> Gonna work with an arcball now.
[08:56:30] <sbx> ArcBall(tm)
[08:57:07] <sbx> "...gluLookAt is equivalent to glMultMatrixf(M); glTranslated (-eyex, -eyey, -eyez);"
[08:57:14] <sbx> I havn't used it yet.
[08:57:28] <servus> That doesn't describe M :)
[08:57:34] <sbx> oops
[08:57:40] <servus> I've never used it for, thought this might be an ideal situation, but it is funny.
[08:57:41] <sbx> that's before the "..."
[08:58:17] <servus> FigureD:)
[08:58:27] <servus> I'm wondering how to do this from a UI standpoint, though, not a programming/math standpoint.
[08:58:52] <sbx> Best to keep consistent with U7's consistency, if possible
[08:59:05] <sbx> Left mousebutton is related to your eyes
[08:59:05] <servus> U7 has no frame of reference for this!:)
[08:59:11] <sbx> well, guess not
[08:59:28] <sbx> perhaps Ctrl-leftmouse lets you move the camera
[08:59:33] <servus> When you get into camera-manipulation mode... you can arc in two arbitrary axises...
[08:59:57] <sbx> the mouse can do two axes
[09:00:05] <sbx> the x/y is defined by the surface
[09:00:12] <sbx> oops, unless Y is up
[09:00:14] <sbx> I forgot
[09:00:37] <servus> Like a beach ball with two seams, and the avatar at the center. The camera is at one of the meeting places of the seams and is pointed towards the other meeting place of the seams. You can rotate the beach ball on axises orthogonal to the straight line that connects both seams
[09:00:41] <servus> Hope my metaphor works :)
[09:01:17] <sbx> Yeah
[09:01:25] <sbx> In first person mode you should not need to hold ctrl or anything
[09:01:27] <sbx> just move the mouse
[09:01:56] <servus> yeah because you aren't expected to actually play in first person. I'm talking only about 3rd person here.
[09:03:32] <sbx> In 3rd person forget what I said about holding left-mouse button. All you'd need to hold is ctrl.
[09:03:45] <sbx> I'd say ALT but my wm binds that to something else
[09:04:15] <servus> Hmm
[09:04:18] <servus> Ok
[09:04:28] <servus> I just need one modifier for rotation in both axises....
[09:04:47] <servus> I'll not worry about zooming right now. Wouldn't that be shift+mouse-y-axis
[09:05:21] <sbx> Eh, y-axis at least.
[09:06:05] <servus> Well, rotation on both orthogonal axises and zooming is all that makes sense.
[09:06:21] <servus> Panning does not make sense here... or would there be a reason to remove focus from the avatar?
[09:06:39] <servus> Does usecode ever move the camera slightly, like to someone who is speaking?
[09:06:41] <servus> Oooh!
[09:06:53] <sbx> Yes it does
[09:07:00] <servus> Go into conversation with someone, the camera +position_ stays the same, but rotates towards the speakeR:)
[09:07:05] <sbx> haha
[09:07:07] <sbx> U9
[09:07:13] <servus> Could happen in realtime, with all your party members chirping in.
[09:07:52] <sbx> Actually I was hoping you could even at advanced camera scripting in the far future, but no need for that now.
[09:07:55] <sbx> add*
[09:08:18] <servus> KISS:)
[09:08:42] <sbx> Isn't there already a camera position?
[09:08:50] <sbx> Just focus on that, it's usually the avatar.
[09:08:59] <servus> Wow, smoother and more FPS than I thought.
[09:09:08] <sbx> On-screen FPS display!
[09:09:09] <servus> The choppy Avatar movement makes the game seem like it's running so slow:)
[09:09:20] <sbx> Yeah smooth scrolling is something I would have suggested
[09:09:24] <sbx> dont know how complicated it is
[09:09:32] <servus> Not at all, if I use the LookAt method.
[09:09:39] <servus> More so, if I use an arcball.
[09:09:48] <sbx> You'd have to change actor movement / animations
[09:09:52] <servus> Just trying to iron out user issues. Technical issues on this part are easy :)
[09:09:55] <servus> Eh? Why?
[09:10:08] <sbx> Colourless said it is too time consuming to accomplish in 2d, because of the way animation is handled.
[09:10:11] <sbx> I'm not sure about 3d.
[09:10:16] <servus> Easy in 3D.
[09:11:07] <servus> When the avatar moves 8 units, the camera doesn't. The camera just knows where it is and where it is *supposed* to be, and gradually gets there.
[09:11:13] <sbx> So you smoothly drag the camera to the new position, rather than locking on and jumping to it as the Avatar moves.
[09:11:20] <sbx> Yeah, that. :)
[09:11:20] <sbx> cool
[09:13:42] <sbx> In Exult you can use the mousewheel[+alt] to move the camera without moving the avatar, if cheats are enabled.
[09:13:50] <sbx> That works in exult-gumps-alpha-r6.
[09:13:57] <servus> I really need sleep. Want a binary?
[09:14:16] <sbx> yes please :)
[09:15:40] <servus> Oh, gumps are 100% done now.
[09:16:32] <servus> http://4.60.183.93/files/exult/exult-camera-alpha-r1
[09:16:56] <servus> Click and drag an item to move the camera. The farther the cursor is from the center of the screen, the faster you move. It's a quick hack but hey:)
[09:18:31] <servus> Actually, does your mouse have 5 buttons?
[09:18:43] <servus> Or 4, even? I can just put it in there for ya
[09:19:17] <sbx> yeah, why?
[09:19:40] <sbx> put what in?
[09:20:16] <servus> Zoom and rotation with those buttons, instead of waiting for you to drag an item:)
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[09:21:23] <sbx> hi Colourless
[09:21:23] <sbx> servus: I like their current function.
[09:21:41] <sbx> unless that's been broken
[09:22:06] <sbx> hmm
[09:22:11] <sbx> arrgh
[09:22:14] <sbx> that hurts
[09:22:21] <sbx> the lycaeum is upside down
[09:22:27] <sbx> in 1.5seconds
[09:23:28] <servus> ok i'll just finish it up and put it in ctrl and shift, if no one objects.
[09:23:32] <servus> yeah careful with that thing :)
[09:23:35] <sbx> even if something is too heavy/not reachable it moves camera
[09:23:40] <sbx> ok nice
[09:24:37] <sbx> ok I get it, its like a super exaggerated movie pan
[09:24:49] <sbx> and the arrow isn't completely accurate
[09:25:10] <sbx> wow
[09:25:17] <sbx> flyby :P
[09:28:18] <servus> Yeah.
[09:28:25] <servus> gluLookAt isn't doing what I hoped.
[09:28:37] <servus> Probably just do my own thing and take GLUT back out.
[09:28:47] <servus> No sense using that library yet :)
[09:28:53] <sbx> glut's in there?
[09:29:41] <servus> Just for gluLookAt. I'm going to take it, and gluLookAt, back out of the project
[09:30:50] <sbx> barks are fixed again
[09:30:50] <servus> http://4.60.183.93/files/exult/exult-camera-alpha-r1
[09:31:02] <servus> Well, they are when you click on an object. Everything else is still broken
[09:31:11] <sbx> even barks when people talk
[09:31:12] <servus> I just made it put object descriptions at the mouse cursor :)
[09:31:23] <servus> *Those* are... guessed... :)
[09:31:33] <servus> With the new binary, hold left ctrl to arc, left shift to zoom
[09:31:42] <sbx> That is the new one? same name
[09:31:48] <servus> Yeah, minor change :P
[09:32:02] <servus> Unless you really really liked dragging a stuffed dragon around to move.
[09:33:24] <servus> Colourless, Hi, by the way. Sorry for all my stupid questions, but how can I tell if someone is a Field_object? Field_objects are (fire|poison|sleep) fields, right?
[09:34:31] <Colourless> don't think there is a way to be able to tell
[09:34:43] <servus> Darn. Virtual time?
[09:34:54] <Colourless> yeah
[09:35:20] <servus> OK. Do you run on Linux? Have you tried it?
[09:37:58] <Colourless> nope
[09:38:06] <Colourless> WinXP here
[09:38:40] <servus> Ah, don't see why it wouldn't compile on Windows.
[09:40:18] <sbx> Ok, the "arc" is till trippy. But it's much easier to control without having to drag something.
[09:40:36] <servus> Yeah, dunno why gluLookAt sucks so much, or maybe it's just me :-)
[09:40:51] <servus> You can do a near-first-person now, though
[09:40:55] <Colourless> dont use glu...
[09:42:13] <sbx> Roofs are flat
[09:42:33] <sbx> but I knew that
[09:43:31] <sbx> they look good in most angles but not close to the ground
[09:43:45] <servus> Colourless, I just put it in for gluLookAt, which I don't expect to keep using. I made my own gluPerspective substitute to avoid GLUT so far.
[09:44:07] <servus> http://4.60.183.93/images/screenshots/Exult3D-20.jpg Recognize it? Let's not let the user get too close to the ground eh ;)
[09:46:19] <sbx> Hopefully you'll have a special case for rooftops along with mountains.
[09:46:44] <servus> Once I get the important stuff working, we'll see about gradual model replacement...
[09:46:53] <servus> Notice that picking works on this.
[09:47:00] <servus> You can actually look at signs on the first try:)
[09:47:06] <servus> Dragging... does not yet work well.
[09:47:14] <servus> Might make the mouse a 3D object for that.
[09:47:44] <servus> Drag a ghost of an object along the ground, press the ghost as close to the ground as it can go.
[09:48:26] <sbx> picking is working better in that close angle
[09:48:28] <sbx> torches don't animate
[09:48:41] <sbx> is that known?
[09:51:02] <servus> Do they ever animate?
[09:51:37] <sbx> lit torches
[09:51:41] <sbx> they must
[09:52:10] <sbx> they don't in exult-camera-alpha-r1
[09:52:18] <servus> Looks like palette shifting to me.
[09:52:32] <sbx> i forgot u7 used that
[09:52:33] <servus> I can't easily support that.
[09:52:43] <servus> Simplest to make a special case of that.
[09:53:11] <servus> Once I put in an uber-simple particle system for Field_objects, I'll put in that as a special case for all the fires I can find.
[09:53:22] <sbx> Exult3D-20.jpg makes me think of Might&Magic3.
[09:53:24] <servus> I really don't want to do special-case kind of stuff until I have the basics done, though
[09:53:28] <Darke> Probably easier just to note it as a 'torch 3d object' needed for the future when you support custom models. *grin*
[09:53:32] <servus> Hehe!
[09:53:38] <servus> Hi darke:)
[09:54:01] <servus> Well my 3D objects won't have any more or less frames than the objects they emulate, afaik.
[09:54:05] <Darke> Greetings!
[09:54:54] <servus> Eventually, though, every single object could be replaced with a custom...
[09:54:57] <sbx> hi
[09:55:14] <sbx> what about highres textures?
[09:55:56] <Darke> Could always just have a torch with a 'particle effects go here' marker and toss a glow into it or something. No doubt someone will think of something that works no matter what limitations there are. *grin*
[09:56:23] <servus> Oh no! Clouds are 2D overlays! I didn't know that!
[09:57:02] * sbx makes a fluffy cloud model.
[09:57:07] <servus> :P
[09:57:13] * sbx eats it.
[09:57:13] * Darke scribbles 'big puffy white thing goes here' on any large blocks floating over the world.
[09:57:41] <servus> Darke, what OS do you do development on? I want to know who is responsible for all these 80-character wraps:)
[10:00:10] <servus> Windows XP I see.
[10:00:19] <sbx> He uses Gentoo.
[10:00:44] <servus> Then maybe his web browser lies! {"Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040707 Firefox/0.8"}
[10:03:52] <Colourless> 80 character wraps...
[10:07:01] <servus> Yes. Who is to blame?:)
[10:08:00] * sbx blames servus.
[10:09:23] <servus> Not me! Not me!
[10:16:24] <servus> I got a letter from Andrea B. Previtera
[10:16:29] <sbx> Hehe
[10:16:53] <sbx> He never said what format his models were in.
[10:16:57] <sbx> Just something custom
[10:17:04] <sbx> What's it say?
[10:17:41] <servus> His are in Quake 2.
[10:17:57] <sbx> oh that's good
[10:18:19] <servus> Mine will be the same. Very simple file format, no frills. I don't need frills.
[10:18:28] <servus> I DO need sleep though, night!!!
[10:18:32] <sbx> bye
[10:24:42] * Darke 's webbrowser lies as much as any one who uses a non-windows OS's webbrowser tends to lie. *grin*
[10:25:00] * Darke poofs into the aether. Fiddling with net connection.
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[10:32:46] <Colourless> md2... awful precision though
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[13:41:50] <sbx> hi Baastuul
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[13:52:02] <sbx> hi Baastuul
[13:54:57] <Baastuul> Hail!
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