#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 6 Sep 2003 (GMT)

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[00:07:05] --> Submarine has joined #exult
[00:07:16] <Submarine> hi
[00:07:21] <Submarine> anybody awake?
[00:07:22] <wjp> hi
[00:07:31] <wjp> just barely :-)
[00:08:51] <Submarine> I have a problem with Serpent Isle.
[00:09:00] <Submarine> I've lost the wooden practice sword.
[00:09:07] <Submarine> or at least I don"t know where I left it
[00:09:22] <Submarine> is there a way to "cheat" to ask the game for the location of an object?
[00:09:29] <Submarine> or may I create another wooden sword?
[00:09:50] <wjp> ask for a location: not easily
[00:10:07] <wjp> create another: should be possible
[00:10:52] <Submarine> I tried Control-B to select the sword, and insert, but insert does not seem to work.
[00:11:11] <wjp> it should place it in your backpack
[00:11:26] <wjp> (and show "Object created")
[00:13:25] <Submarine> it does not
[00:13:39] <wjp> which version of exult do you have?
[00:13:42] <Submarine> do I have to do something special in the object browser to select the object?
[00:13:44] <Submarine> 1.00
[00:13:47] <wjp> ah...
[00:13:58] <wjp> then it's ctrl-c, not insert
[00:15:48] <Submarine> oh thanks a lot
[00:15:59] <Submarine> can the game recognize whether the sword is original or not?
[00:16:10] <Submarine> I have the impression that identical items behave identically.
[00:16:17] <wjp> I just looked but it doesn't seem to be 'special'
[00:16:42] <servus> wjp: You are the owner of the pentagram.sf.net site, right?
[00:17:11] <wjp> well, there are ways to mark items as special
[00:17:34] <wjp> but as far as I can tell the 'real' practice sword isn't special
[00:17:43] <wjp> servus: well, I'm the project admin of pentagram, yes
[00:18:55] <servus> I'll keep it in the other room, sorry:)
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[10:33:18] <Fingolfin> hi
[10:35:58] <DarkeZzz> Hi.
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[11:46:59] <wjp> hi
[11:47:07] <DarkeZzz> Hi.
[11:52:48] <Submarine> hi
[11:53:06] <Submarine> Is there a reason to upgrade from 1.00 to recent versions?
[11:54:00] <wjp> newer versions have more features, they're significantly faster, they support ExultStudio
[11:54:18] <Submarine> mmmh
[11:54:22] <wjp> unfortunately the very latest versions seem to be suffering from a few bugs
[11:54:27] <Submarine> faster may be good
[11:54:34] <wjp> it's getting better again, though :-)
[11:54:53] <Submarine> With 1.00 I have the impression that sometimes the game loses objects
[11:55:07] <Submarine> like if a NPC gives the Avatar an object but it does not fit in the backpack
[11:55:13] <wjp> hm
[11:55:28] <wjp> I played through all of SI with 1.0 without noticing that
[11:56:05] <wjp> (or maybe it was BG)
[11:56:12] <wjp> one of the two games anyway :-)
[11:56:15] <Submarine> What would be interesting would be something that sorts the backpack
[11:57:13] <Submarine> at least in roguelike games you can find your stuff
[11:58:24] <wjp> automatically sorting it would be quite hard to do well
[11:58:48] <Submarine> How about a dialog box?
[11:58:57] <wjp> explain?
[11:59:17] <Submarine> Well, currently exult emulates a game that dates to an era of lowres displays.
[11:59:30] <Submarine> Currently, we have much more display size.
[12:00:00] <Submarine> We could afford to display another window with the full inventory sorted by object class number, with numbers of each item.
[12:00:25] * wjp hmms
[12:00:27] <wjp> I see
[12:00:54] <Submarine> like in nethack
[12:01:13] <Submarine> mind, I find exult impressive
[12:01:24] <Submarine> where did you get the information necessary?
[12:01:28] <Submarine> reverse engineering?
[12:01:46] <wjp> we didn't do any disassembling
[12:01:51] <Submarine> leaks from original programmers? (I think that magnetic scroll's former employees gave explanations about their games, for instance)
[12:02:14] <wjp> mostly a lot of guessing and trying :-)
[12:02:24] <Submarine> (interestingly, disassembling the stuff would have been legal in the EU afaik)
[12:02:29] <wjp> although U7's usecode format was largely decoded by some others
[12:05:44] <DarkeZzz> Submarine: It's legal in the US too.
[12:06:05] <DarkeZzz> Just not in .au... well... disassembling's legal, you just can't 'publish' your disassembled information.
[12:06:37] <Submarine> Oh in the EU you can afaik as long as you keep yourself to information necessary to insure interoperability.
[12:06:53] <Submarine> Since U7 does not run on modern PCs, I think you can argue interoperability.
[12:07:09] <DarkeZzz> Same with .au. However only *you* can use that information. Telling other people, or documenting it, is illegal.
[12:07:19] <DarkeZzz> (In .au anyway. *grin*)
[12:07:21] <Submarine> mmmh
[12:07:37] * Submarine should check how much you can publish this info in .eu too
[12:07:56] <DarkeZzz> However, I'm under the impression that source code is not actually documenting it.
[12:08:13] <DarkeZzz> Since you're allowed to write the source, to compile the program, which you can then release legally.
[12:08:48] <DarkeZzz> However *documenting* stuff, in parallel to the source, is illegal if you release said documentation, either seperate or along with the source/binary.
[12:09:03] <Submarine> How about comments in the source code?
[12:09:18] <DarkeZzz> Iffy.
[12:09:31] <Submarine> Iffy = "get a lawyer"?
[12:09:38] <DarkeZzz> I really can't be sure with that, since there's actually been no prosecutions under the current laws.
[12:09:47] <DarkeZzz> No legal precient. *grin*
[12:09:51] <Submarine> Is that civil or penal law?
[12:09:56] <DarkeZzz> No company's actually prosecuted either.
[12:10:09] <DarkeZzz> Civil I believe, it's part of the copyright act.
[12:10:24] <Submarine> Note that DMCA has, afaik, penal components.
[12:10:48] <Submarine> Circumvention of copyright-protecting technical measures is a penal offense,isn't it?
[12:10:59] <Submarine> (at least in the US)
[12:11:23] <DarkeZzz> By the same token, I can, however, break the copyright act, if I'm going to provide interoperability with a program. So I can legally have every single copy of ultima7/8 in existance, without legal copies, without breaking the law.
[12:11:35] <DarkeZzz> I think it's mostly civil down here.
[12:11:57] <DarkeZzz> Can't be really sure, I just concentrate on trying to find out what's legal/illegal, not pay attention to penalities. *grin*
[12:12:34] <Submarine> Heard of the FreeCraft case?
[12:12:49] <Submarine> Ok, the guys were quite dumb to use a name so close to the original.
[12:13:05] <Submarine> And putting screenshots using the original Blizzard artwork was silly too.
[12:13:54] <DarkeZzz> There are quite a few good papers relating to .au and disassembling/decompiling in reference to copyright and legality over the years, by one "Christina Ciffuentes" if you're interested you can find most of them online.
[12:14:03] <DarkeZzz> Yupyup.
[12:14:47] <Submarine> Actually, I'm more interested of the .fr/.eu situation. We have founded a nonprofit to fight against abuse of intellectual property.
[12:14:48] <DarkeZzz> Actually, it's only one 'f', Cifuentes.
[12:15:15] <Submarine> As you know, big business lobbies are currently hard at work in Europe for various strenghtening of the laws.
[12:15:27] <DarkeZzz> .au law in this area is similar to the .uk/.eu set apparently, due to the fact we based our legal system of theirs.
[12:15:30] <DarkeZzz> Yup.
[12:16:02] <Submarine> mmmh... isn't US law supposed to be founded on UK law?
[12:18:45] <DarkeZzz> Not really. Or at least a 600+year old copy of .us law, whereas .au is only 200+year old copy.
[12:25:39] <Submarine> Also, the law in a great part of Europe is *not* founded on UK law but on Napoleon-era French law.
[12:25:46] <Submarine> Not that it matters much, nowadays.
[12:27:45] <DarkeZzz> Yup.
[12:28:18] <Submarine> There still are interesting intellectual property differences.
[12:28:37] <Submarine> For instance, France considers that the authors of an artistic work have unalienable rights.
[12:29:18] <Submarine> For instance, as far as I know, a publisher cannot buy the full rights to any derivate product. People may oppose movie adaptations etc...
[12:29:29] <Submarine> As far as I know, in the US, once the author has sold, he has sold.
[12:30:22] <DarkeZzz> It depends. You can sell 'all' your rights, or you can sell your book rights, or movie rights, or you can even go to the extreme of 'first publish book rights'.
[12:31:06] <DarkeZzz> You'll find the contract will usually specify in great detail what rights you're selling of your work. *grin*
[12:35:09] <DarkeZzz> You especially need to be picky with employment contracts in that regard. I've turned down one 'golden handcuff' contracting job, because they wanted the handcuffs, without the extra $$$ attached that says they own any code you write, whilst under contract, whether it's your 'works' code in working hours or not. *grin*
[12:36:37] <Submarine> Interesting.
[12:37:00] <Submarine> I myself don't know the situation of my personal code.
[12:37:24] <Submarine> I suspect it's like the situation of my personal books, if I wrote some.
[12:39:19] <DarkeZzz> It depends on the specifics too. If your job is to write books, then having a 'any books you write, even in free time, we own' clause is legit, if you only write code, and the contract has that clause in it, it can't be enforced (IIRC).
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[12:39:59] <Submarine> The trouble is, I have no work contract. :-)
[12:40:25] <Submarine> I work in a public laboratory. Civil servants have no work contracts; their situation is entirely determined by laws and regulations.
[12:40:53] <DarkeZzz> And visa versa. I knew a couple who worked at an ISP, one as a coder, one tech support on the phones.They both had in their contracts any 'personal' code written was owned by the company, but it could only be enforced on the work-programmer of the pair.
[12:41:25] <DarkeZzz> Ahh. In which case there's no problems then. Work done in work time, is your companies, work done in your own time, is your own.
[12:41:42] <Submarine> I'd have to consult the said laws and regulations.
[12:41:55] <Submarine> I know that I can write books and get royalties for them without prior permission.
[12:42:06] <Submarine> Probably code is assimilated to books.
[12:42:29] <DarkeZzz> Usually, yes.
[12:44:15] <DarkeZzz> The closest court example I can recall in europe, is that code is treated as if mathmatical formula.
[12:44:30] <Submarine> It's not.
[12:44:34] <DarkeZzz> So if you can write a math's textbook, you can write code. *grin*
[12:44:41] <Submarine> An *algorithm* is treated as a math formula.
[12:44:48] <Submarine> Code is an *implementation*.
[12:44:55] <DarkeZzz> Well... no. Code can be both.
[12:45:00] <Submarine> *Algorithms* are assimilated to formulas, thus non patentable.
[12:45:12] <Submarine> *Code* has a status similar to books.
[12:45:27] <Submarine> However, the authors of program code enjoy less than the authors of books.
[12:45:46] <Submarine> (they have no "moral rights")
[12:46:46] <DarkeZzz> The problem with that logic is Z-code and other mathmatically provable code representations, they're all mathmatic algorythms, that can be compiled to binaries.
[12:47:27] <Submarine> Actually, any program written in a language with fully defined semantics is.
[12:47:58] <DarkeZzz> That describes a binary file too. Hrm...
[12:48:38] <Submarine> Do you have a formal semantics for your processor and OS?
[12:48:40] <Submarine> I guess not.
[12:48:53] <DarkeZzz> Yes.
[12:48:55] <Submarine> In any case, I agree: those distinctions are silly, when you push them a bit.
[12:51:49] <DarkeZzz> Problem being is that lawyers always push them a 'bit'. *ponder* Any location to get .eu copyright laws online?
[12:56:07] <Submarine> Mmmh... eucd.info is an activist site on the EU copyright directive.
[12:56:19] <Submarine> Otherwise, look in the laws of the member states, like www.legifrance.gouv.fr
[12:58:55] <Submarine> Technically, most EU law (directives) is not directly enforceable.
[12:59:09] <DarkeZzz> Yup.
[12:59:12] <Submarine> It has to be transferred into national law. Sometimes, nuances of interpretation intervene.
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[13:34:03] <Colourless> hi
[13:36:20] <Submarine> (where the heck do I find a 5th pair of swamp boots on Serpent Isle)
[13:38:49] <Colourless> hell if i know. swamp boots are a rarity on serpent isle.
[13:39:14] <Submarine> surprisingly, even with several swamps
[13:39:27] <Colourless> there is really so little slime actually in the game, that it doesn't really matter
[13:39:57] <Submarine> how about the gases?
[13:40:07] <Colourless> there are 3 swamps, but you only need to go through/round each one once
[13:40:17] <Submarine> I can't cross the Gorlab Swamp w/ my 5th person.
[13:40:30] <Submarine> Maybe with potions that cure poison.
[13:40:46] <Colourless> i usually just keep poition or use spells once people get poisoned
[13:41:00] <Colourless> since you have 4 pairs, give them to all your companions
[13:41:18] <Colourless> you have greatest control of the avatar when moving, so you can avoid the slime yourself
[13:41:33] <Colourless> while the companions tend to walk into it
[13:41:51] <Submarine> That's an idea.
[13:42:36] <Submarine> Oh you have to walk into it?
[13:42:48] <Submarine> I had the impression that merely walking NEAR it caused illness.
[13:43:06] <Colourless> you actually have to walk onto it
[13:45:53] <armav> why do swamp boots protect you from the swamp's poisonous gases?
[13:48:21] <Colourless> cause the game designers were stupid :-)
[13:48:37] <Colourless> they thought they would mention that it's the gasses that were toxic
[13:48:41] <armav> omg blasphemy !1!111oneone
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[13:50:49] <armav> hi Cahaan
[13:50:54] <Cahaan> hey there :)
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