#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 7 Apr 2002 (GMT)

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[05:49:05] <V0|D> hi
[05:50:02] <Darke> Hi.
[06:45:56] <V0|D> any1 here know java?
[06:47:28] * Darke has programmed in it before. Not for a year or so though.
[06:47:51] <V0|D> even C++ maybe....just need clarification on inheritance
[06:49:26] * Darke will try and give you a correct answer. <grin>
[06:49:29] <V0|D> heeh
[06:50:22] <V0|D> so if i create a class that inherits from an Array class, i can use it just like an array?
[06:51:58] <Darke> Provided you've used 'public' inheretance, or have exposed the functions that you are trying to use, then yes.
[06:52:54] <V0|D> ok, i thought so, i just confused myself thinking about it :/
[06:54:17] <V0|D> the array class im using has a method 'objectAtIndex(int)', so i could use it within itself as 'self.objectAtIndex(2);' for example
[06:55:27] * Darke nods. You should be able to.
[06:55:59] <V0|D> excellent...
[06:59:42] <V0|D> thanks Darke :)
[07:00:12] * Darke bows. No problem.
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[07:03:53] <Meat> Anyone know about Obvious' work on the paper shoes?
[07:04:11] --- Meat is now known as MeatShield
[07:04:26] * Darke hasn't heard a thing about it.
[07:05:37] <MeatShield> I searched the fourms for 'shoes' and there was babble about it back in December.. some words on GIMP too....
[07:06:30] <matto> meatshield!
[07:06:51] <MeatShield> I am. esp in Half-Life...
[07:06:54] <MeatShield> :(
[07:07:08] <matto> Waz up?
[07:07:13] <MeatShield> Doh.
[07:07:17] <MeatShield> :)
[07:07:18] <matto> haha
[07:07:38] <MeatShield> nota.. giving rc1 a whirl...
[07:09:41] <MeatShield> Does Oblivious ever come round?
[07:10:32] * Darke has a faint memory of seeing her on irc once. But not recently.
[07:12:13] <MeatShield> oh.. it is a her.. didn't know that.. how did she come along with paperdoll support for shoes, etc?
[07:12:37] * MeatShield is guessing 0%
[07:21:17] <Darke> No idea. I think the idea may have been dropped due to it's complexity of trying to match boots with the trousers. Given that armour would wear differently with boots, vs. a pair of pants with boots.
[07:22:13] <MeatShield> Then how do npc wear shoes if its programticly impossible?
[07:24:40] <Darke> It's not. IIRC it's got nothing even to do with programming, it's the fuss of modifing the artwork for each set of boots and trousers to accomidate the possibility of it being worn with every other set of boots of trousers, so it looks 'right'.
[07:26:25] <MeatShield> So it was felt to leave the same number shoe drawings by modifying the exisiting ones and not add custom art work?
[07:31:01] * Darke is not sure if we can actually add artwork, he thought all the shape numbers were taken. But he could be confused...
[07:32:00] <MeatShield> hrm.. no matter... thanks for info..
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[08:47:02] <V0|D> later
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[10:06:18] <wjp> ugh.. silly... just rename one of the two
[10:07:29] <wjp> giving functions with different purposes the same name is kind of a bad idea, IMHO
[10:08:09] * Darke nodnods. Agreed.
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[10:33:21] <Kirben> so what exactly is the fix ?
[10:34:04] <wjp> I think I'd rename the callback to check_editing_files_cb
[10:35:02] <wjp> ...recompiling...
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[10:41:52] <wjp> committed
[10:41:55] <wjp> Kirben: does it work now?
[10:42:28] <Kirben> yes
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[11:01:55] <Darke> <blinkblink> I think this is off a plaque to a tombstone or something: "I TOLD YOU*IT WAS MY*ECHIDNAS " Sounds like they were having fun. <grin>
[11:03:54] <wjp> huh?
[11:04:10] <Darke> Sorry, just digging my way through U8's usecode. <grin>
[11:04:37] * wjp doesn't get the joke
[11:04:52] <Darke> Incidentally, did we decide on a 'name' to call the collection of functions? Just 'function' and everything under it a subfunction?
[11:05:13] <wjp> class?
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[11:06:20] <wjp> hi
[11:06:44] <Fingolfin> hi
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[11:06:55] <wjp> there's also (at least) two types of functions: those called by 0x11 and those called by 0x57
[11:07:10] <Darke> (joke) It's an old joke from many 'horror' stories. The protaginest in the story dies and has enshrined on his tombstone 'I told you it was my (small, cute, innocent, furry creatures)'. Usually bunnies or hamsters.
[11:08:04] <wjp> ah, I see
[11:08:10] <Darke> (joke) Usually after frantically pleading with his relatives/friends about getting away from his pets and so on. You can probably create the scenario yourself. <grin>
[11:08:12] * wjp didn't see too many of those movies
[11:08:48] * wjp wonders who would keep echidnas as pets
[11:08:52] <Darke> Me neither. Horror isn't my preferred reading material, but I read a couple of short stories about them.
[11:09:36] <Darke> Oooh, fun. Me next with the server disconnects. <grin>
[11:09:43] <wjp> yeah :-)
[11:10:30] * Darke will just call the 'function collections' 'Classes' and the individual functions inside them 'functions' then. It's relatively easy to change, just painful. <grin>
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[11:11:12] <wjp> there we go :-0
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[11:11:24] <wjp> wb ;-)
[11:11:53] <Darke> If we find there's a significant or important difference between the 0x11 and 0x57 functions, then someone can worry about 'fixing' the code to handle that then. <grin>
[11:11:59] <Darke> Thanks, it's good to be back!
[11:12:12] <wjp> calling conventions are quite different between the two
[11:13:06] <wjp> it seems the 0x11 use the same stack as the calling function, but the 0x57 ones start a new stack
[11:13:26] <wjp> possibly because the latter ones create a new process
[11:14:21] <Darke> Hmm... so that flag might be stored in that number attached to the function name, that we don't know what it means. In any event, that'll probably only be relevant internal to the interpreter, and not to the usecode loader at the moment.
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[11:16:08] <wjp> no, it isn't in the number attached to the class name, since this is a function property, not a class property
[11:17:53] <matto> blasted netsplits
[11:19:21] <Darke> Thanks. I hope there's a way of telling what 'type' of function it is just from the function header somewhere if we need this info. OTOP, I'm sure there'd be a way to do that, if it was necessary.
[11:21:31] <wjp> I have two lists of functions here, one containing all functions ever called with 0x11 and one with all called by 0x57
[11:23:13] <Darke> Is there ever any overlap?
[11:23:18] <wjp> no
[11:23:23] <wjp> they're disjoint (sp?)
[11:24:39] <Darke> In which case, there'd either be a flag to tell it, or the interpreter itself would 'know' how to handle it from the opcode.
[11:26:52] <wjp> another possible distinction between the 11's and the 57's: one might be a static function and the other a proper member function
[11:31:34] <Darke> I think the 'one spawns a new thread' option makes more sense, unless there's another opcode that makes more sense for this option. Given how much of the game is handled in usecode, I would expect it would almost have to be multithreaded.
[11:31:58] <wjp> it's almost certainly multithreaded, yes
[11:32:27] <wjp> lots of things happen in the background while you're having a conversation. for instance
[11:33:10] <wjp> but that multithreading could be based just outside of the actual interpreter. (i.e., every usecode call 'from the outside' becomes a new thread)
[11:33:45] * Darke nods. It could be.
[11:34:09] <wjp> I do think 57 is 'new process' though. (just not sure :-) )
[11:38:14] * Darke thinks so too. But he's got even less guess work to base his 'thoughts' on. <grin>
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[11:49:53] <wjp> hi
[11:50:57] <flurotube> heya wjp, 'sup?
[11:51:20] <wjp> not much
[11:51:27] <flurotube> cool
[11:51:46] <Darke> Hi.
[11:51:55] <flurotube> g'day darke
[11:53:24] <matto> flurotube!!!!!!!
[11:56:57] * Darke sighs and cleans up the mess made by matto's exclamation marks as they shatter against the wall.
[11:57:19] * matto shoots a barrage of bluf at Darke
[11:57:22] <matto> err
[11:57:24] <matto> fluff
[11:57:33] <flurotube> lol
[11:57:40] <flurotube> heya there matto :)
[11:57:51] * matto isn't sure how he mistyped fluff so badly... hehe
[11:57:56] <matto> flurotube: columbus!
[11:58:04] * Darke watches matto fail is 'fast talk' roll. <grin>
[11:58:09] <flurotube> Australia actually!
[11:58:19] <matto> what the ...
[11:58:21] <flurotube> but you were close!
[11:58:23] <flurotube> :P
[11:58:37] <matto> did you take over a columbus computer remotely?
[11:59:56] <Darke> wjp: Do you think it's worth going to the effort to not only support loading only of individual classes, but of individual functions inside a class? I'd probably write it just because I could, but I don't particularly want to overengineer this code. <grin>
[12:01:21] <flurotube> lol no matto, its just a bnc
[12:01:28] <flurotube> running on a friend's computer
[12:09:42] <Fingolfin> <shudder> me just had to read a document by his employer which is a preliminary spec for an XML format we are going to use. This is so *bad*. seems the guys has a) no clue about XML and b) no clue about writing a spec
[12:10:16] <Fingolfin> like this is the spec for a date field: Date - "<date, sep. by ->"
[12:11:09] <Fingolfin> so, what's that... 2002-04-07 ? April-07-2002 ? 07-Apr-2002 ? 07-04-02? grmbl
[12:11:49] <wjp> s-e-v-e-n-a-p-r-i-l-t-w-o-t-h-o-u-s-a-n-d-t-w-o? ;-)
[12:11:52] <Fingolfin> sorry, I know it's completly offtopic, but I have to vent a bit ... esp. because I know that starting tomorrow I'll have to implement at least parts of that "spec", argh
[12:11:57] <Fingolfin> wjp: ll
[12:12:00] <Fingolfin> lol even =)
[12:12:21] <wjp> off-topic? here? how could you!? ;-)
[12:12:33] <Fingolfin> <g>
[12:13:09] <Fingolfin> BTW, guess what these type do: boolean, b_int, bool_int. Boolean is string True or False. Not used anyhwere, though. bool_int is also boolean, but 0 or 1 (used all over the place). And b_int....
[12:13:18] <Fingolfin> b_int: Integer to be multiplyed with the indicator in 2.8. “multiplyer³
[12:13:27] <Fingolfin> did I mention section 2.8 doesn't even exist? :-)
[12:13:31] <Fingolfin> argh
[12:13:38] <Fingolfin> I gotta cool down now :-)
[12:13:51] * wjp gets bucket of ice-water
[12:13:57] <Fingolfin> guess I will have to bug some people tomorrow to clear this up. and to run a spell checker over this document
[12:14:07] * wjp empties bucket on Fingolfin
[12:14:12] <Fingolfin> and *not* export HTML from StarOffice, god, that's not hTML
[12:14:19] * Fingolfin *eeks*
[12:14:38] * Fingolfin wipes water out of his eyes and says "shank iou"
[12:15:08] <Darke> (!HTML) Ick. Agreed!
[12:15:13] <wjp> I don't suppose he would be so kind to rewrite the specs in a schema or something?
[12:15:16] <Fingolfin> ok, I'll just hide this away deep in my HD, I can worry about it tomorrow and enjoy my sunday now
[12:15:42] <Fingolfin> and I think I'll have to explain to them what "xmlns" is good for =)
[12:16:08] <Fingolfin> seems they want all our different XML formats to share the same xmlns (XML namespace), hehe
[12:17:12] * Darke blinkblinks.
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[13:14:22] * wjp reads latest post on forum
[13:14:33] * wjp reads latest post on forum again
[13:15:09] * wjp gives up... I don't get it
[13:16:44] * Darke BLINKS. Umm... I'll get back to you if I can figure it out.
[13:17:59] * Darke wonders if Colourless is playing a joke...
[13:18:46] * Darke doesn't think Colourless could pull of such an air of... umm... 'not being on this planet' though.
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[13:44:28] <Dominus> hi
[13:51:46] <Darke> Hi.
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[15:08:47] <Darke> wjp: I've a question relating to a curiousity in disasm.cc, that I was wondering if there was a reason for, or if it's just a question of legacy code.
[15:09:19] <wjp> ask away
[15:11:40] <Darke> wjp: In the 'eventid pointer' section, where it has (described in the u8usecode.txt file) offsets starting from the beginning of the table. It's using and forcing 'int's, rather then 'unsigned int's. Now I can't see if there's a real reason for this, since in theory there shouldn't be any functions before the beginning of the table, unless they're referencing a previous function.
[15:12:24] <Darke> I just don't know enough to completely rule out them 'saving space' by just referencing code in a previous function or something. Although it does sound more then a little silly. <grin>
[15:12:42] <wjp> I guess that should just be unsigned int
[15:13:49] <Darke> Thanks. I'll change it now, it just seemed so deliberate, given the read4s function was only used in that point in the file, I wasn't sure. <grin>
[15:32:56] <Dominus> how to describe "gumps" ?
[15:33:40] <wjp> hmm...
[15:33:44] * wjp thinks
[15:33:45] <Dominus> (I'm adding "terms we use" to the docs and don't really know how to phrase gumps)
[15:34:06] * wjp nods
[15:34:14] <Dominus> eggs: these are trip-wires that cause monsters to spawn,execute scripts and
[15:34:15] <Dominus> play music when you get near them.
[15:34:33] <wjp> change weather, trigger traps, teleport
[15:34:34] <Dominus> flex files: or flexes are used by the original to store the data files.
[15:34:34] <Dominus> Also when you choose not use compressed savegames (see save_compression_level in
[15:34:34] <Dominus> <ref target="exult_config"/>) our savegames are also "flexed".
[15:35:35] <wjp> gumps: the windows used in the game interface for containers, characters, menus, etc..
[15:35:39] <wjp> something like that?
[15:35:59] <Dominus> yeah
[15:36:09] <Dominus> or dialogs?
[15:36:23] <Dominus> to confusing with the dialogs in the game, i guess
[15:36:50] <wjp> hm? which dialogs?
[15:37:12] <Dominus> sometimes such windows are also called dialogs I think
[15:37:20] <Dominus> but windows is probably better :-)
[15:38:38] <wjp> I think dialogs are more for asking the user a question
[15:38:45] <Dominus> true
[15:38:53] <Dominus> windows will have to do
[15:41:01] <Dominus> paperdoll:you get the paperdoll by pressing i. It's the picture of your characters body (or the bodies of your party memebrs) onto which you can drag all kinds of equipment.
[15:43:13] <wjp> maybe add something that in the originals only SI had them, but we added them to BG too?
[15:43:52] <Dominus> the problem is that I think the BG is still a paperdoll
[15:43:59] <Dominus> just not that advanced
[15:44:26] <Dominus> or maybe call it the inventory layout and the SI-style is called paperdoll?
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[15:44:55] <wjp> hi
[15:45:02] <Dominus> hi
[15:45:03] <Dark-Star> Hi!
[15:45:31] <Dark-Star> any hot news on u8 sound decompression?
[15:45:38] <wjp> Colourless did it! :-)
[15:45:56] <Dominus> wjp: shapes: Shape files are the format used for storage of all graphics elements (from UI buttons to terrain features) of the games Exult supports. Shapes contain one or more frames
[15:46:09] <Dark-Star> wjp: by emulating the original U8 code?
[15:46:47] <wjp> Dark-Star: yeah, he loads (part of) u8.exe into an x86 interpreter and runs the decompression function on the compressed sound buffers
[15:48:18] <Dark-Star> how big is that function? too big to reverse-engineer it, I think :)
[15:48:48] <wjp> dunno
[15:49:06] <Dominus> wjp: usecode: that's the scripting language that drives all of U7.
[15:49:13] <Dominus> want to elaborate?
[15:50:17] <wjp> shapes: add that a frame is a single image
[15:51:24] <wjp> usecode: maybe a couple of examples what it drives exactly (conversations, objects, ...)
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[15:51:46] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[15:51:50] <wjp> hi
[15:52:00] <Colourless> hi
[15:54:38] <Dominus> hi
[15:55:27] <Dominus> ok, I have eggs, flex, gumps, paperdoll, shapes, usecode, snapshot. Anything else you can think of that needs to be explained?
[15:56:12] <wjp> Colourless: quick poll: would you call the inventory display in the original BG a "paperdoll"?
[15:56:41] <Colourless> yes and no... :-)
[15:57:33] <Dominus> ok, then how about phrasing it like when pressing i you get the inventory display and the si-style of it we call paperdoll
[15:57:34] <Colourless> like that helps.... but in my opinion, it's not a paperdoll, not strictly anyway
[15:58:07] <Dark-Star> Dominus: I don't know what you're about to explain but how about an explanation of a "chunk"?
[15:58:16] <Dominus> ugh
[15:58:22] <Colourless> from what i understand a paperdoll involves actually equipping things onto the character and it being shown that the char is actually wearing it or whatever... this doesn't happen in bg
[15:58:47] <wjp> tile = 8x8 pixels, chunk = 16x16 tiles, superchunk = 16x16 chunks, world = 12x12 superchunks
[15:59:16] <Dominus> Dark-Star: I'm looking for terms that we use when we talk about U7/exult that people don't understand
[15:59:49] <wjp> "read the FAQ" seems to be a term people don't understand? ;-)
[15:59:52] <Dark-Star> oh ok. then "chunk" should be added as well... at least if people start editing
[15:59:57] <Dominus> that may have to go in the Studio docs (once I do them), I think
[16:00:21] <Dominus> I'll keep that in mind for that
[16:08:18] <Dominus> ok, revised paperdoll: when pressing <key>i</key> you get the inventory display. It's the picture of your characters body (or the bodies of your party memebrs) onto which you can drag all kinds of equipment. The way this is displayed in SI is what we call paperdoll. We integrated this for BG as well (see (link to FAQ#improvements))
[16:08:38] <Dominus> better?
[16:10:32] <Dominus> for completenes I also included BG and SI in the terms :-)
[16:11:17] <Dark-Star> for completeness you should also include FOV and SS...
[16:11:39] <Dominus> I just thought of this. thx
[16:12:01] <Dark-Star> So what's next on the coding agenda, now that U8 sound decompression is implemented? ;-)
[16:17:16] <Colourless> you are mistaken there
[16:17:40] <Colourless> no one else but me has the 'code' to do the decompression :-)
[16:17:53] <Dominus> also exult data directory (dir where Exult stores its data files as specified in exult.cfg)
[16:18:03] <Dark-Star> well... OK, I actually meant "as good as implemented" ;-)
[16:18:17] <Colourless> while it is known how to do it (sound decompression) I am the only one who can do it at the moment
[16:18:38] <Dominus> wjp: what is the default for the data dir on linux?
[16:19:08] <wjp> uhh...
[16:19:58] <wjp> probably something like /usr/share/games/exult
[16:20:03] <wjp> or maybe /usr/share/exult
[16:20:08] <Dominus> he he
[16:20:09] --> MeatShield has joined #exult
[16:20:24] <wjp> might also depend on if you build it from source or install it from a .rpm, or from a .deb, or ...
[16:20:30] <Colourless> interesting name... hi MeatShield :-)
[16:20:41] <wjp> hi
[16:20:50] <MeatShield> hi.
[16:20:55] <Dominus> hi
[16:21:05] <MeatShield> my name... tells of my 1st person shoot skills
[16:21:48] <MeatShield> enough said. :)
[16:21:55] <Dominus> ah, so people of your team use you as MeatShield? :-)
[16:22:31] <MeatShield> Yes.. I am the decoy... It would never work in real life..
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[16:22:43] <Dominus> funny :-)
[16:22:49] <Dominus> hi Fingolfin
[16:22:50] <Colourless> well, i would imagine the name MeatShield would indicate you take more shots than you give out :-)
[16:22:56] <Fingolfin> yo
[16:22:58] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Fingolfin
[16:23:05] <wjp> hi
[16:23:05] <Darke> Hi.
[16:23:09] <MeatShield> I do fire back.. see, its my aiming..
[16:23:44] * Darke had one friend who named himself 'fodder', and another 'lavaboy', both for obvious reasons...
[16:24:03] <Colourless> oh... can i say then that "you suck" ??? :-)
[16:24:50] <MeatShield> yes.. though maybe it just because I don't play quake, half-life, etc. 8 hours a day 7 days a week... :)
[16:24:56] * Dark-Star knows someone who always calls himself "Mr. Selfdestruct"... he can't handle rocket launchers ;-)
[16:25:49] <Colourless> well gee, neither do I... I at most play quake maybe once a month... but I still have pretty good aim :-)
[16:26:07] <MeatShield> There was this guy from school who, in duke nukem', would always double back and trip his own boobytraps
[16:26:14] <Dominus> he he
[16:26:17] <MeatShield> called him 'trip bomb'
[16:26:25] * Darke had a nasty habit of tripping over his own laser tripmines back when he played Duke3d, but he never really had a problem with his mines in Tribes2...
[16:26:27] * Fingolfin has played quake, halflife and unreal (includiing various versions) probably for a total of 8 hours, ever. I.e. all my games together. And this is an upper bound =)
[16:26:28] <MeatShield> ok.. so i suck...
[16:27:01] <MeatShield> no.. wait.. i blame the game engine.. yeah
[16:27:32] <Dominus> so, now that we have discussed this, can we help you with anything specific or do you just want to hang out in here (as many others do as well)
[16:27:44] <Colourless> are you sure it's not your control system... i hear playing with the keyboard is a really bad idea ... :-)
[16:27:44] <Dominus> just asking if we have distracted you too much :-)
[16:28:06] <MeatShield> i'm just leechin, thanks.
[16:28:32] <Dominus> hm... leeching?
[16:28:37] <Dominus> or lurking?
[16:28:48] <MeatShield> oh yeah....
[16:28:50] <wjp> nothing to leech here :-)
[16:29:01] <Colourless> if you are lurking, you are doing a really poor job... lurkers aren't meant to speak :-)
[16:29:23] <MeatShield> can't aim, can't lurk.. I can bake...
[16:29:57] * Dominus orders afine loaf of bread then
[16:29:57] * Dark-Star has to go
[16:30:00] <Dark-Star> see ya!
[16:30:03] <wjp> bye
[16:30:05] <Dominus> bye
[16:30:06] <Darke> Bye.
[16:30:18] <-- Dark-Star has left IRC ("playing indy4 with scummvm :)")
[16:32:45] <Dominus> FAQ: known compile issues: makefile.cygwin uses cygwin only as shell. Mingw is used for compiling.
[16:32:47] <Dominus> added
[16:38:24] <Colourless> enjoy talking to yourself>
[16:38:43] <Dominus> :-)
[16:39:39] <Colourless> it's just the way you said that last comment... it was as if you were requesting the compile issue be added in... then it's as if you replied saying it was added :-)
[16:40:32] * Dominus is actually talking to himself and is enjoying it a lot
[16:45:23] <MeatShield> As long as your not answering yourself...
[16:45:40] <Dominus> but you see...
[16:45:46] <Dominus> I am answering myself
[16:45:54] <Dominus> please call the doctor :-)
[16:46:35] * Darke talks to himself all the time when coding. Umm... I didn't say that.
[16:47:09] <MeatShield> Whenthey show up, don't tell them you play ultima.. they'll tie that in with AD&D then you'll be locked up for ever..
[16:47:21] <Colourless> Darke: everyone talks to themselves when coding... how else would you keep yourself sane?
[16:48:17] <Dominus> I also added to Documentation/path config: Better don't use spaces in the path (e.g. c:\ultima 7\the black gate\). Some people seem to have problems with that
[16:48:44] <MeatShield> When I code, I talk WITH myself and TO the computer.... usualy (sp) with naughty, profane words or disdain.
[16:48:46] <Darke> Colourless: Hmm... point. I know one coder though that doesn't talk to himself when coding... perhaps I should report him as potentially mentally unstable? <grin>
[16:49:43] <Colourless> yes, it is extremely likely he is :-)
[16:50:06] * Darke doesn't tend to use naught, profane words or disdain against the computer. He knows he's the cause of almost all the problems, so there's not use blaming a poor piece of hardware that's just doing it's job. <grin>
[16:51:18] * Darke decides that it's time to sleep, given the number of typos that are slipping though. <grin> "Night!"
[16:51:31] <wjp> night
[16:51:32] <-- Darke has left #exult ()
[16:53:01] <MeatShield> I'm curious.. how many times a day do you get inindated (sp) with the same questions about exult?
[16:54:23] <Dominus> not THAT often
[16:54:37] <wjp> (inundated). here on IRC you mean?
[16:54:45] <Colourless> people don't find us here :-)
[16:54:56] <MeatShield> yeah... from people who don't read the faq...
[16:55:08] <Colourless> the forum is the location for asking questions that are already in the faq :-)
[16:59:50] <Fingolfin> just make sure Dominus doesn't know where you live if you do so
[17:00:01] <wjp> heh :-)
[17:00:01] <MeatShield> ???
[17:00:04] <Fingolfin> or alternatively, first bring your famility to a secure location so that they are safe
[17:00:41] <Dominus> hey!!!!
[17:00:41] <MeatShield> so.. how many ask this - > "Will there be a multiplayer version?"
[17:00:49] <Dominus> I'm not that evil
[17:00:54] <MeatShield> yes you are.
[17:01:02] <Dominus> MeatShield: I think about twice every month
[17:01:22] <wjp> seems to be a little less recently
[17:01:32] <MeatShield> not bad.. I thought it everyother day...
[17:01:39] <wjp> (not counting directly after our little April Fools joke...)
[17:01:44] <Dominus> well it is in the FAQ :-)
[17:02:06] --- wjp is now known as wjp|dinner
[17:02:24] --- Dominus is now known as Dominus|away
[17:02:43] <MeatShield> that scared me.. *cries*
[17:03:06] <wjp|dinner> us leaving or april fools? :-)
[17:03:15] <Colourless> hehe
[17:03:28] <wjp|dinner> *gone*
[17:03:31] <MeatShield> then i got to the 2nd paragraph and when i noticed that most everything people had been askig for wa there i knew it was a fraud, cause all of you arn't that nice.
[17:03:44] <MeatShield> :)
[17:05:35] <-- MeatShield has left IRC ()
[17:07:42] --- Dominus|away is now known as Dominus
[17:08:04] <Dominus> damn I#m still away and not here :-)
[17:08:07] --- Dominus is now known as Dominus|away
[17:08:18] <Colourless> could have fooled me
[17:35:08] --- Dominus|away is now known as Dominus
[17:35:31] <Dominus> now I'm back :-)
[17:35:37] <Colourless> wb :-)
[17:36:34] <Dominus> Fingolfin: could you add a link to our homepage for Exult Studio docs? I'm going to work on that tonight and hoefull I'll have something to put up later.
[17:37:06] <Fingolfin> where should the link be, and what is the URL?
[17:37:47] <Dominus> in our header along with Documentation and the FAQ and the same style (studio.php and and studio.dat in /content)
[17:37:59] <Fingolfin> ok
[17:38:36] <Dominus> when you add it, don't do a cvs upgrade (I'll do it when I have some actual content)
[17:38:38] <Dominus> Thanks
[17:38:54] <Fingolfin> you mean, I shouldn't update the online version, I guess
[17:38:54] <Dominus> update I mean :-)
[17:38:59] <Dominus> right
[17:39:05] <Fingolfin> where do you want the item in the nav bar?
[17:39:17] <Dominus> after the FAQ?
[17:39:31] <Fingolfin> OK, and I name it "Stuido" ? Or "Exult Studio" ?
[17:39:48] <Dominus> btw, the order in the forum header is different ot the normal homepage (download and documentation have switched)
[17:39:57] <Dominus> Exult Studio I guess
[17:40:01] <Fingolfin> http://fingolfin.dnsalias.net/~maxhorn/exult/index.php
[17:40:10] <Fingolfin> will fix that, too, ok
[17:40:34] <Dominus> or maybe Studio
[17:40:39] <Dominus> looks kind of nice
[17:40:42] <Fingolfin> right now it reads exult studio
[17:40:51] <Fingolfin> but I can switch it back to studio, np :-)
[17:41:06] <Fingolfin> i.e. reload to see Exult Studio in there
[17:41:28] <Dominus> I think I like Studio better
[17:41:41] <Fingolfin> like this now?
[17:41:55] <Dominus> yeah
[17:43:18] <Fingolfin> forum is fixed, too
[17:43:32] <Fingolfin> (you can't test that using my homepage, though =)
[17:43:42] <Dominus> btw, I'm going to add that the MacOS version requires at least OS 8.5 (or should I say 8.6?)
[17:44:12] <Dominus> I accidently tried a link from your homepage version :-)
[17:45:06] <Fingolfin> say 8.5
[17:45:13] <Dominus> ok
[17:45:16] <Fingolfin> change is in CVS
[17:45:29] <Dominus> okey dokey
[17:45:31] <Dominus> thanks again
[17:45:34] <Colourless> nice download page Fingolfin :-)
[17:45:58] <Fingolfin> <g>
[17:46:21] <Fingolfin> it shouldN't really do that, though... I should catch the error
[17:46:34] <Dominus> :-)
[17:46:48] <Colourless> :-)
[17:47:09] <Fingolfin> I just assume the files are present, but obviously they are not, since they are not in CVS =)
[17:48:52] <Fingolfin> that better?
[17:51:52] <Fingolfin> ok now it won't show entries for missing files
[17:51:57] --- wjp|dinner is now known as wjp
[17:52:34] <Dominus> better
[18:36:08] <wjp> could I test DCC file transfers with one of you?
[18:36:19] * wjp just noticed that sends are _supposed_ to work with this kernel...
[18:36:31] <Colourless> hmm, you could try with me... but i wouldn't bet on it working regardless :-)
[18:36:41] <Dominus> or with me
[18:37:10] * wjp tries to send file to Dominus and Colourless
[18:37:13] <Colourless> now that doesn't seem to be getting anywhere
[18:37:14] <Fingolfin> me me me :-)
[18:37:35] <Dominus> yeah doesn't want to get here
[18:37:49] <wjp> doesn't really seem to be working, no
[18:38:35] * wjp starts tcpdump and tries again...
[18:39:09] <Fingolfin> hm, how do I get rid of the underlines on my links? I tried with CSS "text-decoration:none" that worked in one Browser, but not in IE nor in Mozilla :-(
[18:40:15] <Colourless> that 'should' be it :-)
[18:40:21] <wjp> yeah
[18:40:45] <wjp> works in galeon
[18:41:10] <wjp> in my version of mozilla, too
[18:42:40] <wjp> Dominus: still nothing?
[18:43:02] <Dominus> yep, still not working
[18:43:23] * wjp tries something else
[18:44:04] <Dominus> nope
[18:44:05] * wjp kicks those kernel modules
[18:44:19] --> wjp_ has joined #exult
[18:44:33] <wjp_> and this?
[18:44:42] <wjp_> *sigh*
[18:45:12] <Dominus> exactly
[18:50:04] <wjp> grr
[18:50:27] * wjp doesn't see why this doesn't work
[18:50:30] <-- wjp_ has left IRC ("[x]chat")
[18:54:44] * wjp wonders if he should use SNAT instead of MASQUERADE
[18:58:28] * wjp tries that...
[18:58:29] <wjp> brb
[18:58:35] <-- wjp has left IRC ("[x]chat")
[18:58:54] --> wjp has joined #exult
[18:58:54] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to wjp
[18:59:07] <wjp> ok, connection is still working... that's something :-)
[18:59:57] <wjp> still nothing I guess?
[19:07:30] <Dominus> nope nothing
[19:07:49] <Dominus> writing the docs for Studio is no easy task
[19:08:13] <wjp> thanks for helping, btw
[19:08:19] <Dominus> np
[19:08:32] * wjp will try again later, when he's feeling more like tinkering with iptables/kernel modules...
[20:11:54] <Colourless> wjp, you know those strange u8 sounds that seemed to have a longer header than normal, well i'm pretty sure it's because those sounds require a large amount of memory (i.e. near or more than 64kb)
[20:11:55] <Dominus> phew this is very hard to write, especially if you get distracted by the bad TV program
[20:12:20] * Dominus meant the Studi docs
[20:12:28] <wjp> hm, I see. Any trouble decoding those?
[20:13:17] <Colourless> haven't actually tried yet... the decoder spat out errors when attempting to decode the few files that had a long header. i'm attempteding to compensate at the moment
[20:14:07] <Colourless> btw, after done that the converter should be finished. it will read in all the flexes (english only at the moment) and decompress the sounds, and create new flexes with wav files in them
[20:16:07] <Dominus> for an insane moment I really thought you would need to use the U8.exe while playing Pentagram (note to readers that is in the far future not yet)
[20:16:17] <Dominus> :-)
[20:16:48] <Colourless> well you still need u8.exe to decompress... but it would be too slow to rely on the decompressor to work in real time :-)
[20:17:03] <Dominus> that'S what I though :-)
[20:17:10] <Dominus> thought actually
[20:17:27] <Dominus> With all these typos I'm not sure how the studio docs will look :-)
[20:17:38] <Colourless> like anyone will read them :-)
[20:17:48] <Dominus> bah
[20:25:39] <Colourless> hmm, some of the sounds have really bad clipping problems.... the u8 sound recorder should be shot... that is unacceptable
[20:27:34] <wjp> clipping problems? cut off at the end or something?
[20:27:58] <Colourless> no, sound clipping is when the wav hits +/- 1
[20:28:38] <wjp> oh, the amplitude is clipped?
[20:29:19] <Colourless> yeah
[20:29:42] <Colourless> it normally creates a clicking sound
[20:30:02] <Colourless> most of the time it's not noticable, but there are 2 clicks in one of hydros' speeches
[20:31:19] <wjp> hm, not good
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[20:43:09] <hebble> Hi all. Is anyone awake?
[20:43:15] <wjp> hi
[20:43:18] <Colourless> actually the clipping errors actually seem more basic than that
[20:43:19] <Dominus> hi
[20:43:23] * wjp looks at self. Uh... no, not awake
[20:43:43] * Colourless goes and tries something
[20:44:18] <hebble> Wait... was there a conversation going on already? My chat client showed silence.
[20:44:32] <wjp> conversation? what's that? :-)
[20:45:39] <hebble> Anyway, I have a simple question, probably with a simple answer: how do I configure Exult to look for the U7 game data in a directory under /usr/local, yet put the savegames somewhere in $HOME?
[20:47:29] <Dominus> not possible yet
[20:47:47] <hebble> Really? I would think that would not be very difficult.
[20:47:54] <Fingolfin> maybe
[20:48:03] <Fingolfin> but it still is not possible currently :-)
[20:48:03] <Colourless> well, not it's not difficult... we just don't do it :-)
[20:48:05] <wjp> it isn't difficult, no
[20:48:07] <hebble> Would a patch for that be desired, if I created one?
[20:48:08] <Fingolfin> exactly
[20:48:28] <Fingolfin> why not, if you make it cleanly
[20:48:33] <Dominus> I'd say yes
[20:48:35] <wjp> we already have a 'savegame' 'system path' right?
[20:48:42] <Dominus> very much desired
[20:49:21] <wjp> hm, would be quite trivial to add, I think
[20:49:29] <wjp> look at exult.cc, around line 333
[20:49:38] <wjp> ("add_system_path("<SAVEGAME>", ".");
[20:50:54] <hebble> Are those system paths assumed to be under <DATA>, or can an absolute path be inserted instead?
[20:51:13] <wjp> they're under the game directory
[20:51:18] <wjp> but you can make them absolute
[20:52:06] <wjp> I'd add a config file entry for it
[20:52:22] <Fingolfin> yup
[20:52:25] <hebble> God, I love the Exult team! Especially wjp!
[20:52:26] <wjp> one for each game
[20:52:30] <Fingolfin> gotta go to bed, cya folks
[20:52:33] <-- Fingolfin has left IRC ("42")
[20:52:33] <wjp> g'night
[20:53:06] <Colourless> ok, i managed to remove clicks from the guardians speech... lets see how it works with others...
[20:54:04] <hebble> If I put BG and SI saves in the same directory, will that be a problem?
[20:54:13] <wjp> no
[20:54:23] <Colourless> and hydros too... but the fix may cause problems with other sounds...
[20:55:03] <wjp> they're named <SAVEGAME>/exult%02d%s.sav, with %02d the number, and %s "bg" or "si"
[20:55:09] <wjp> (it's in fnames.h)
[20:55:21] <Dominus> hebble if you do this you might want make the GAMEDAT dir optional as well
[20:55:49] <wjp> Dominus: good point
[20:55:59] <hebble> Dominus: yeah, sounds like a good idea. wjp: Thanks; I just wanted to verify that SI wouldn't try to load BG's games.
[20:56:07] <hebble> ... or list them in the save window.
[20:56:40] <Dominus> hebble: but the gamedat dir shouldn't be mixable
[20:56:41] <wjp> hmm... good point
[20:56:53] * wjp wonders if they might list eachother's game
[20:57:03] <wjp> Colourless: any idea?
[20:57:42] <Dominus> they don't
[20:57:52] <Dominus> easy enough to try out isn't it?
[20:57:54] <Dominus> :-)
[20:58:06] <Colourless> wjp: they shouldn't
[20:58:25] <wjp> I usually feel an urge to figure out exactly how the code works for these things :-)
[20:58:44] <wjp> ah, right, the mask is exult*%s.sav
[20:59:15] <wjp> it'll only go wrong if one game is a suffix of another :-)
[21:01:10] <hebble> So... how about <static_path>, <gamedat_path>, and <savegame_path> tags under <blackgate> and <serpentisle>, defaulting to their current values?
[21:01:30] <Dominus> static path doesn't actually make sense
[21:02:04] <Dominus> that should always be in /gamedir/static or else gamedir doesn't make sense
[21:02:39] <hebble> gamedir can still make sense if it's thought of as merely providing a default for the other three if we don't want to specify them together
[21:03:36] <Dominus> hm...
[21:03:58] <wjp> might as well add it :-)
[21:04:24] <Dominus> okey dokey
[21:04:34] <wjp> make sure you don't add them to the config file if they aren't there already. (don't want to confuse people too much :-) )
[21:04:51] <Dominus> he, that'S what I just wnted to write :-)
[21:05:00] <Dominus> pfff, typos
[21:05:09] <hebble> hmm... config->value("config/disk/data_path",... I dont' have a data_path tag in my cfg. Is mine just out of date?
[21:05:56] <wjp> if it's the default it doesn't have to be in there
[21:07:49] <wjp> hm, strange... game.cc, around line 150 overwrites these default STATIC, GAMEDAT and SAVEGAME
[21:08:18] <hebble> Ah. Now those paths are in my cfg.
[21:08:57] <wjp> (that's the function you'll want to patch, btw (Game::create_game))
[21:09:08] <hebble> (Yeah, thanks.)
[21:18:29] <hebble> Do I want to call config-set() for each of these?
[21:19:09] <wjp> that depends on if you want them to always appear in the .cfg file
[21:19:10] * wjp thinks
[21:19:33] <wjp> I'd say yes for the savegame_path, and no for the other 2
[21:19:40] <hebble> OK
[21:20:23] <Dominus> A Studio Docs Q: should I add the documentation for our usefull tools to the Docs or just put tehm online as textfiles and link to them?
[21:20:32] <Dominus> I think I prefer the latter
[21:20:41] <wjp> me too
[21:27:03] <hebble> Does config->value(d.str(), some_string, some_string.c_str()) make sense? Can/should I use a string as its own default?
[21:28:33] <wjp> hm
[21:28:51] <hebble> ... because I have to build those defaults in _some_ string...
[21:29:17] <wjp> I wouldn't use it
[21:41:52] <Colourless> it takes me 78 seconds to decompress all of the flex
[21:42:13] <Dominus> nice
[21:42:14] <wjp> pretty good
[21:44:04] <Colourless> i've manage to create a 'fix' for the clipping problem in the speech files, but there's not much i can do about the sfx. some are just so badly clipped, i think it's impossible to fix them
[21:47:21] <Colourless> http://www.users.on.net/triforce/clipped.png shows how bad some sounds are... not that I think the sound in particular sound any different to what it was like in the game
[21:47:36] <wjp> eek
[21:48:16] <Dominus> uargh
[21:48:18] * wjp looks at scale
[21:48:57] <wjp> shortish sound
[21:49:27] <Colourless> the speech files just had an occasional integer wrap around problem and that was easy to fix... the sounds though seem to just have been created poorly
[21:49:46] <Colourless> that sound is a whack sound
[22:04:54] <hebble> I've got the beginnings of a savedir patch, but this is weird: the save window lists the correct files, but "Journey Onward" loaded a game in the wrong directory.
[22:04:55] --> Dark-Star has joined #exult
[22:06:01] <Dark-Star> hi
[22:06:04] <wjp> hi
[22:06:23] <Colourless> hi
[22:07:04] <Dominus> hi
[22:07:11] <wjp> hebble: hm, strange
[22:07:52] <wjp> "journey onward" from the menu at the start, right?
[22:07:53] <hebble> Yes.
[22:08:38] <hebble> Does this relate to gamedat/saveinfo.dat ?
[22:09:02] <wjp> ?
[22:09:09] <wjp> in what way?
[22:09:16] <hebble> I mean, where is the save file for "Journey Onward" stored?
[22:09:29] <wjp> it's not a savefile; it's the entire gamedat dir
[22:10:06] <hebble> Oh. So then what I described would be the correct behavior, if I left "gamedat" set to the old value?
[22:10:12] * wjp nods
[22:10:26] <hebble> I see. That might be something worth documenting somewhere.
[22:10:49] <wjp> Dominus: how about a "file and directory guide" ? ;-)
[22:13:12] <-- Dark-Star has left IRC ("getting some sleep")
[22:14:04] * Dominus notes another TO-DO!
[22:18:54] <hebble> The savedir path seems to work - should I send it to the mailing list?
[22:19:19] <wjp> SF patch tracker would be better I think
[22:19:24] <Dominus> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=302335&group_id=2335&func=browse
[22:20:06] <hebble> OK. Are there any other obstacles to making the U7 data read-only? (i.e., the /usr/local idea I suggested before)
[22:20:35] * wjp thinks
[22:21:08] <wjp> that should be it
[22:21:18] * wjp notices something...
[22:21:28] <wjp> the "quotes.flg" and "endgame.flg" are created in the <SAVEGAME> dir
[22:21:35] <wjp> without a game-specific suffix
[22:21:42] <Dominus> oh, true
[22:21:50] <Colourless> umm.... i think cvs kind of just screwed up
[22:21:50] <Colourless> Directory /cvsroot/exult/pentagram/tools/dcmpsound/. added to the repository
[22:21:50] <Colourless> Directory /cvsroot/exult/pentagram/tools/dcmpsound/.. added to the repository
[22:22:38] <hebble> wjp: for the time being, can't that be handled by telling users to save different games to different paths? I'm doing that anyway, now.
[22:22:54] <wjp> hebble: yeah, it's no critical problem
[22:23:35] <Colourless> oh well, that doesn't actually seem to have done anything
[22:24:54] <Colourless> dcmpsound.exe : dcmpsound.o x86er.o Flex.o $(CONF_OBJS) $(FILE_OBJS)
[22:24:55] <Colourless> $(CXX) $(LFLAGS) -o $@ $+ -mconsole
[22:24:59] <Colourless> errm
[22:25:07] <Colourless> how did that happen.
[22:25:14] <Colourless> anyway...
[22:25:29] * Colourless announces that the sound decompressor is now in cvs
[22:26:54] <Colourless> time for me to go
[22:26:58] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("tired")
[22:30:15] * wjp tries to build it
[22:30:59] --> sb-x has joined #exult
[22:31:04] <sb-x> heyo
[22:31:28] <sb-x> ?date
[22:31:28] <exultbot> It is now Sun Apr 7 22:31:28 2002 (GMT).
[22:34:06] <wjp> hi
[22:34:22] <sb-x> is exultbot's time correct?
[22:35:22] <sb-x> ?date
[22:35:22] <exultbot> It is now Sun Apr 7 22:35:22 2002 (GMT).
[22:35:23] <sb-x> ?time
[22:35:23] <exultbot> It is now Sun Apr 7 22:35:23 2002 (GMT).
[22:35:47] <sb-x> ?date +%m%d%Y
[22:35:47] <exultbot> It is now Sun Apr 7 22:35:47 2002 (GMT).
[22:35:48] <sb-x> :)
[22:35:48] <hebble> ?time
[22:35:48] <exultbot> It is now Sun Apr 7 22:35:48 2002 (GMT).
[22:36:05] <hebble> I agree with it exactly, minus five hours. :)
[22:36:56] <sb-x> if i set my clock forward today, there will only be 4 hour diff between exultbot's time and mine (US central)
[22:37:04] <sb-x> that seems... odd
[22:37:30] <wjp> it's GMT. Not adjust for summer time
[22:37:38] <wjp> I'm GMT+2, currently
[22:38:50] <sb-x> AAah
[22:39:10] * sb-x falls to a fetal position on the floor and screams "TIMEZONEHELL TIMEZONEHELL".
[22:39:12] <-- sb-x has left IRC ("X-Chat [1.6.4]")
[22:41:41] <Dominus> the first draft of the Studio docs will be online shortly (another 15 minutes, I guess)
[22:42:01] <hebble> The {static,gamedat,save}dir patch is now on sf.net.
[22:46:45] * wjp nods. Looks good
[22:46:48] <wjp> I'll apply it
[22:47:17] <hebble> Woohoo! Does this mean I get my name in Changelog again? :)
[22:47:24] <wjp> :-)
[22:47:25] <Dominus> he he
[22:52:57] <wjp> ok, committed
[22:52:58] <wjp> thanks!
[22:53:46] <hebble> You're welcome!
[22:54:00] * wjp adds hebble to credits.txt too
[22:54:34] <wjp> Paul Hebble, right?
[22:54:38] <hebble> Yes.
[22:55:59] <hebble> Wow, that's neat; where does credits.txt show up in the game?
[22:56:15] <Dominus> when you start exult
[22:56:21] <wjp> "Exult Credits" in the main menu
[22:56:22] <Dominus> in credits in the main menu
[22:57:39] <hebble> Cool. I'll have to look at that soon. Now, though, I must go. Bye all.
[22:57:53] <-- hebble has left IRC ("Xchat probably crashed.")
[23:01:01] <Dominus> phew
[23:01:10] <Dominus> Studio documentation online
[23:02:07] <wjp> "somehow we didn't emntion Serpent Isle"
[23:02:10] <wjp> s/em/me/
[23:02:17] <Dominus> aargh
[23:02:33] <Dominus> I knew why I didn't commit the exult cvs just yet :-)
[23:06:56] --> hebble has joined #exult
[23:07:26] <wjp> wb
[23:07:51] <hebble> Thanks. I had to log off/on because I unplugged my PS/2 mouse.
[23:10:53] * wjp sighs at case-insensitivity
[23:11:06] <Dominus> ?
[23:11:21] <wjp> Colourless used 'configuration.h' and things like that
[23:11:27] <wjp> (should be 'Configuration.h')
[23:15:20] <wjp> woohoo! it's working!
[23:18:23] <hebble> What do you think about this bit from my patch description? "It may be desirable at some point in the future to have "gamedat" and "save" default to some path in the user's home directory."
[23:18:24] <wjp> 46 seconds
[23:18:43] * wjp didn't read the description yet
[23:18:50] <wjp> but yes, you're right
[23:21:14] <wjp> before 1.0 too, I guess
[23:21:21] <hebble> For instance, I have ~/.exult/bgsave (save) and ~/.exult/bgsave/current (gamedat)
[23:21:52] <wjp> maybe would be nice if it looks for the config file in ~/.exult/exult.cfg too
[23:22:38] <hebble> I agree; ~/.exult.cfg was tripping my tab-completion when I was working with the bgsave dir. :(
[23:24:04] <hebble> What about breaking current installations?
[23:24:43] <wjp> I think it's acceptable to make this kind of changes in the change from RCx to 1.0
[23:25:06] * Dominus too
[23:26:23] <hebble> Maybe, if the user doesn't have ~/.exult/whatever, it could be copied from <game>/<path> when they first run it?
[23:27:07] <wjp> nah
[23:27:19] <wjp> I wouldn't like that kind of hack in a 1.0
[23:27:35] <hebble> True.
[23:28:01] <wjp> a notice on the homepage should be enough. I'm sure people will come running when they lose all their savegames :-)
[23:29:47] <Dominus> not that we should support pre-RC1 savegames :-)
[23:29:54] <Dominus> pre 1.0 I meant
[23:30:44] <hebble> I have some from 0.97cvs, I think...
[23:31:26] <Dominus> All created with the beta1 should actually kind of work :-)
[23:33:24] <hebble> Should I patch the default directories, or do you guys want to think this through a bit more?
[23:33:49] <wjp> we'll think it through a bit more
[23:38:24] * Dominus doesn't feel like updating the Docs with Hebble's changes just yet
[23:38:40] * Dominus did enugh FAQing for today
[23:39:03] * Dominus con't efen wride animore