#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 7 Dec 2010 (GMT)

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[09:15:32] <servus> Serpents! Why did it have to be serpents? Why can't we go to Daisy Isle for once, Avatar?
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[12:50:07] <Dominus> I wonder whether steelbar jaildoors might be supposed to block conversaions in SI
[12:51:25] <wjp> I seem to vaguely remember speaking with jailed people in Monitor
[12:51:38] <Dominus> yes but those are wooden doors
[12:51:41] <wjp> ah
[12:51:53] <Dominus> I just tested a bit with the original
[12:52:14] <Dominus> since during the Fawn trial you can ask Dupre to rejoin the party in Exult
[12:52:38] <Dominus> you can't speak to him in the original through the jaildoor
[12:53:06] <Dominus> but if you tleport inside his cell you can also ask him to join in the original
[12:53:34] <Dominus> you can talk to people behind wooden cell doors
[12:53:35] <wjp> seems fairly convincing :-)
[12:53:45] <Dominus> :)
[12:54:00] <Dominus> or at least THAT special frame
[12:55:09] <wjp> is it easy to check a similar situation in BG?
[12:55:42] <Dominus> I'l see about adding the shape/frame number to the bug report - I think that trial should work without you being able to have him rejoin...
[12:56:09] <Dominus> hmm, I should be able to do some tests in the original via hackmoving...
[12:56:36] <wjp> LB's jail in the SW castle tower probably had a wooden door?
[12:56:49] <Dominus> I think so
[13:04:03] <Dominus> need to find some good testing places first in Exult before randomly teleporting through the original games... :)
[13:06:37] <Dominus> found another place in the mountains of freedoms where you can't initiate conversation... (not the starting point with the automaton - there is a steelbar window)
[13:07:02] <Dominus> 09b6/06c6
[13:10:39] <Dominus> fawn prison also block conversations
[13:11:16] <Dominus> 03dc/061d
[13:13:07] <Dominus> got to try whether that blocks later when kylista is imprisoned there too
[13:13:29] <Dominus> oh well, will look further later on, but I think I'm onto something there :)
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[15:50:38] <Malignant_Manor> BG has a steel door with bars for the apple thief.
[15:51:21] <Malignant_Manor> Maybe the SI designers just got lazy and didn't want to code any extra text.
[15:51:43] <Malignant_Manor> It seems really stupid that you cannot talk through steel bars.
[15:52:40] <Malignant_Manor> Maybe SI fixes can change the conversation with Dupre in the cell.
[16:56:00] <Malignant_Manor> Actually, SI doesn't allow you to speak to allies if blocked by a locked door.
[16:56:29] <Malignant_Manor> Iolo being locked in the cell does something to him that allows him to speak to you.
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[17:35:17] <Malignant_Manor> Global Flag 6 lets Iolo speak through the cell.
[17:37:17] <Malignant_Manor> I can't get the flag to change in the menu to test it though.
[17:38:13] * Dominus is back
[17:38:43] <Dominus> so... they kind of made it corect in SI that closed rooms do block conversations...
[17:38:55] <Dominus> make sense... except for the steelbars :)
[17:40:14] <Dominus> I guess kylista also gets gf 6 set... got to test in the original... thank god for that extensive archive of SI savegames from the forum
[17:49:56] <Malignant_Manor> Closed rooms don't stop conversations.
[17:50:09] <Malignant_Manor> Party members still talk and pathfind to the Avatar.
[17:50:25] <Malignant_Manor> But they do not enter the dialog tree.
[17:51:04] <Malignant_Manor> Global flag only works for Iolo as far as I know.
[17:51:32] <Malignant_Manor> Non party members have no conversation restrictions based on locked doors.
[17:52:03] <Dominus> yes, I noticed that they answer "Avatar?" when clicked on them but with conversations I really mean the dialog tree
[17:55:00] <Malignant_Manor> SI conversation behavior is dumb. We can likely fix Dupre with a hack that when his captured flag is set, he won't talk.
[17:55:29] <Malignant_Manor> That seems a lot better than changing how it currently works.
[17:55:49] <Dominus> why not fix the logic behind doors/steelbar door?
[17:56:07] <Dominus> I'd rather have that work like the original than add a hack...
[17:56:22] <Malignant_Manor> The original is a hack.
[17:57:24] <Malignant_Manor> Can Dupre join the party when in the cell?
[17:59:01] <Malignant_Manor> We should treat blocked pathfinding as a barrier to talking by default. Individual frames of a shape could then be settable with a speech bypass flag.
[18:00:53] <Malignant_Manor> SI could have all doors with a slot or bars have that flag except shape 376, frame 6.
[18:01:53] <Malignant_Manor> Then if the conversation gets fixed, the person modifying the game could add it as speech bypassing.
[18:02:06] <Dominus> in the original dupre can join the party when in the cell, IF you can talk to him
[18:02:36] <Malignant_Manor> What happens in Exult?
[18:02:46] <Malignant_Manor> He joins and gets stair teleported?
[18:03:00] <Dominus> yup
[18:03:32] <Malignant_Manor> Also, if this gets put in place, there should be an option to ignore the speech blocking completely. (have it act like it does now)
[18:03:42] <Dominus> why?
[18:04:19] <Malignant_Manor> Well, a lot of people like talking through barriers.
[18:04:39] <Malignant_Manor> It is also possible it may cause bugs.
[18:05:26] <Dominus> when it causes bugs these should be fixed but talking through barriers could be considered cheating so if you cheat then just teleport there
[18:06:05] <Malignant_Manor> You can talk through barriers in the original.
[18:06:28] <Malignant_Manor> I think the bypass should be disabled by default.
[18:06:42] <Dominus> I'm not saying that we should fix all barriers, I'm saying we should do it like the original
[18:07:05] <Malignant_Manor> The original is hacky and hard coded.
[18:08:20] <Dominus> if we fix it like you say then we are hacky and hard coded in regard to dupre...
[18:08:45] <Malignant_Manor> It would be soft coded.
[18:09:11] <Dominus> same difference and still hacky
[18:09:19] <Malignant_Manor> That frame could be added by editing a file with Exult Studio.
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[18:09:43] <Malignant_Manor> It has to be done to stop how they screwed up the original game.
[18:15:39] <Malignant_Manor> That frame should be fine to block speech since I don't see any other places where conversation would take place on the other side.
[18:16:47] <Malignant_Manor> Do you have a save in Exult right before Dupre is locked up?
[18:19:06] <Dominus> yes kind of, it's with SI fixes
[18:20:04] <Malignant_Manor> Can you please send it to me in irc?
[18:21:10] <Dominus> one moment
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[18:25:00] <Dominus> yeah strange things happen when you double click tooo early....
[18:25:56] <Dominus> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7737184/exult49si.sav
[18:31:36] <Dominus> hmm, for me, in the original, non party members are restricted by locked doors
[18:31:43] <Dominus> same as party memebers
[18:31:52] <Dominus> in SI
[18:33:23] <Dominus> so it's probably that "no pathfinding = no conversation"
[18:33:34] <Dominus> (except when global flag 6 set?)
[18:33:42] <Malignant_Manor> They still talk to me. I hacked myself into the locked door in the inn. Then I turned the hack off.
[18:33:56] <Dominus> how can i tell in the original which flag is set?
[18:34:05] <Malignant_Manor> Global flag 6 only affects Iolo as far as I know.
[18:34:21] <Malignant_Manor> I don't know, the original flag menu is broken for me.
[18:34:33] <Dominus> yes, for me too
[18:36:43] <Dominus> can you give me a savegame of when this works for you at the inn? I cannot reproduce this there (or which inn?)
[18:38:58] <Malignant_Manor> Monitor inn. The locked room.
[18:40:53] <Dominus> with whom are you talking?
[18:41:57] <Malignant_Manor> The innkeeper
[18:43:43] <Dominus> just maybe he has a flag set for this... :)
[18:45:17] <Dominus> when you stand to the north and try to talk to a passing pikeman it doesn't work
[18:46:50] <Dominus> or if you put any other NPC into that room
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[19:42:58] <Malignant_Manor> I found the problem with object pathfinding that allows objects to be moved through walls.
[19:43:26] <Malignant_Manor> MAX_GRAB_DIST is 3 in paths.cc
[19:43:34] <Malignant_Manor> This needs to be changed to 1
[19:43:49] <Malignant_Manor> I don't know if there are any unintended side effects though.
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[21:09:25] * Dominus is back again :)
[21:09:50] <Dominus> that in paths.cc was it ever changed by someone? that could be a clue :)
[21:14:03] <Dominus> it was added by marzo in January 2008
[21:23:04] <Malignant_Manor> 5858 is when it was last changed (Marzo)
[21:37:13] <Malignant_Manor> Here's a fix to make Exult behave like the original for conversations. http://pastebin.com/vBtXvtRt
[21:37:25] <Dominus> btw, sourceforge staff cleaned the bug tracker
[21:37:42] <Malignant_Manor> Make sure you have the pathfinding fix.
[21:37:58] <Dominus> pathfinding fix?
[21:38:16] <Malignant_Manor> MAX_GRAB_DIST = 1
[21:38:55] <Dominus> ok
[21:39:04] <Dominus> let me test a bit
[21:39:09] <Malignant_Manor> If the pathfinding isn't fixed, there is still a 2 tile leeway with conversations.
[21:41:06] <Malignant_Manor> I still think there should be an option to block conversation through doors.
[21:41:41] <Malignant_Manor> (doors without a slot or bars)
[21:42:19] <Dominus> you mean totally? that an NPC doesn't react on a doubleclick? probably that would be nice
[21:42:28] <Malignant_Manor> Yes
[21:42:57] <Malignant_Manor> I could do it easily if I disallow all doors (which is wrong).
[21:43:11] <Malignant_Manor> It is more complicated with exclusions.
[21:45:52] <Malignant_Manor> I could do it, but I'm not sure if I can do it nicely.
[21:47:00] <Dominus> I have to say this conversations + pathfinding fix plays nicely
[21:47:28] <Malignant_Manor> I'm just not sure if the pathfinding breaks anything.
[21:47:58] <Malignant_Manor> It may have been put that high to compensate for a bug.
[21:48:53] <Dominus> yes that is a bit of a problem... we'd need Marzo to verify it but I think Marzo is busy with more important stuff :)
[21:52:55] <Malignant_Manor> It was originally 3. Marzo made several similar functions out of the existing one.
[21:54:40] <Dominus> can you attach a patch for this to the tracker item http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3128568&group_id=2335&atid=102335 along with the pathfind fix and reference it to the pathfind bug track? I'm building a debug built and will play further on with this fix applied. Let's see how that works
[21:55:54] <Malignant_Manor> Exult 1.2 didn't have the 2 tile off pathfinding.
[21:56:06] <Malignant_Manor> It's been a long time since 1.2 though.
[21:56:38] <Dominus> yes and I have no more savegames to test against. 1.2 generally crashes with 1.4.9rc1 savegames for me :)
[21:57:00] <Dominus> not to mention that I have mostly SI fixes savegames now...
[21:57:23] <Malignant_Manor> I can't attach files unless I am the tracker author.
[21:58:35] <Dominus> oh, I see can you make one patch out of the gamwin.cc and path.cc and add it to pastebin? I'll attach it
[22:04:33] <Dominus> or like this by adding a aptch :)
[22:06:30] <Malignant_Manor> I added a patch tracker for the conversation bug.
[22:07:01] <Malignant_Manor> I need to test the fetch spell before the other patch is added.
[22:09:23] <Dominus> ok. I'll play a bit with it. I just landed on Moonshade, so I have some bit to go
[22:09:24] <Malignant_Manor> The flag list that carries over to the notebook should likely be trimmed up and made like actual journal text.
[22:09:58] <Malignant_Manor> Just look at how many pages you have in your SI journal and a lot of it looks like code.
[22:10:33] <Dominus> yes. After starting to write the list for BG I lost interest in writing up readable notes. Mostly because I wasn't so sure on the SI plot anymore
[22:11:06] <Dominus> but I thought that adding the flags and *some descritption* takes off some load already
[22:12:26] <Dominus> if you feel like writing some of it, that's one area I'm confident enough to apply your changes really fast :)
[22:13:41] <Dominus> when I committed the two autonotes.txt files, I think I mentioned that these were still WIP or something like that...
[22:14:01] <Malignant_Manor> It's enabled by default.
[22:14:22] <Malignant_Manor> Maybe disable by default until it gets fixed up.
[22:14:41] <Dominus> it's only enabled if you put the files in your static folder
[22:15:56] <Dominus> right now they don't get distributed by the snapshots, you need to download them yourself and add them. so I don't think it needs disabling
[22:17:15] <Malignant_Manor> I thought they got put in the flex.
[22:17:35] <Dominus> nope, no time for notebook love
[22:19:59] <Dominus> the notebook feature does need some love in other places as well, for example the one autonote equals one page...
[22:33:40] <Dominus> hmm, sometimes I see the benefit of having more than one display monitor on the desktop... running exult fullscreen and watching the debug log would be nice...
[22:37:14] <Dominus> Malignant_Manor: I think your paths fix might be very beneficial. I was seeing actors sitting wrong (in the air) all the time and I think this might have fixed it
[22:40:40] <Malignant_Manor> Which bug report is it. This needs a lot of testing because it wasn't too consistent.
[22:40:53] <Dominus> no bug report yet
[22:45:17] <Malignant_Manor> I'm sure I've seen it or at least in the forums.
[22:45:41] <Malignant_Manor> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2719334&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[22:45:44] <Dominus> hmm, I might have a reproducable one...
[22:53:23] <Dominus> attached a savegame to the tracker you found
[22:58:00] <Dominus> but the bug might only occur when the pathfinding has to be done "super fast" (e.g. you teleport to a location or in the case of the savegame I attached, when you suddenly wake up there
[22:58:19] <Dominus> when I wait around for the townspeople to arrive they will pathfind correctly
[23:05:25] <Malignant_Manor> I only really noticed on teleport before.
[23:06:20] <Malignant_Manor> This made me notice how horrible his sleeping on the bed (or floor) is. This occurs without the patch too.
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[23:28:58] <Dominus> grrr, maybe runninng Exult in fullscreen while in gdb was not the brightest idea... Exult crashed, but gdb keeps it from closing, it still is the foreground process, can't force quit it... nothing... :(
[23:29:26] <Dominus> only shuting down the imac via button worked...
[23:39:53] <Malignant_Manor> It seems that the change to gamewin.cc isn't needed for the npc dialog to work correctly.
[23:40:36] <Dominus> just the paths.cc?
[23:42:23] <Malignant_Manor> Yeah.
[23:42:44] <Dominus> hmm, was able to reproduce the crash... will add a tracker item
[23:43:12] <Malignant_Manor> You should try removing the gamewin.cc change.
[23:50:37] <Dominus> that could be it, but the problem was hard to reproduce...
[23:51:51] <Malignant_Manor> Dupre talking through the cell?
[23:52:04] <Malignant_Manor> That seems pretty easy to reproduce.
[23:52:25] <Dominus> I need to test, now need to reproduce the test which I was able to.
[23:55:14] <Dominus> hmm, more likely related to the paths.cc change :(
[23:55:58] <Malignant_Manor> Okay, I was wrong about that but the problem was fixed by me anyway.
[23:56:09] <Dominus> fbt mentions gamewin.cc line 1210 - which is about tilesize
[23:56:56] <Malignant_Manor> fbt?
[23:57:00] <Dominus> bt
[23:57:08] <Dominus> backtrace
[23:57:15] <Malignant_Manor> The crash
[23:57:46] <Dominus> http://pastebin.com/cbSUZw4B