#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 7 Nov 2003 (GMT)

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[11:24:54] <Colourless> hi
[11:41:50] <-- exultbot was kicked from #exult by Colourless (Ha! Poor poor exultbot!)
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[13:40:43] --- Topic for #exult is: Exult version 1.1beta3 has been released! http://exult.sf.net/
[13:40:43] --- Topic for #exult set by wjp at Mon Oct 20 07:30:57 2003
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[13:41:04] <-- Colourless was kicked from #exult by wjp (bad dragon!)
[13:41:38] * wjp whistles innocently
[13:42:07] <DarkeZzz> Better not do that too often, or he might start to enjoy it.
[13:42:14] * DarkeZzz ummms... and gags himself with a paw.
[13:42:44] <wjp> so, what did exultbot do to deserve this cruelty? :-)
[13:44:10] <DarkeZzz> I think he was simply the victim of circumstance, the poor creature was right in the pathway of a rampaging dragon. It was inevitable really.
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[15:49:08] <wjp> hi again
[16:03:15] <Fingolfin> yo wjp
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[17:09:22] <Colourless> uh, hello :-)
[17:10:43] <wjp> hi :-)
[17:10:58] * exultbot glares at Colourless
[17:11:04] <Colourless> i can explain.... uh, no i can't
[17:11:33] <wjp> <DarkeZzz> I think he was simply the victim of circumstance, the poor creature was right in the pathway of a rampaging dragon. It was inevitable really.
[17:11:34] <wjp> :-)
[17:12:53] <Colourless> seriously, i thought that it would attempt to auto rejoin on a kick
[17:13:31] <Colourless> now, i'm curious, how did exultbot know about things occuring in #exult during the period it wasn't joined
[17:13:33] <Colourless> [11:41:50] <-- exultbot was kicked from #exult by Colourless (Ha! Poor poor exultbot!)
[17:13:33] <Colourless> [12:44:11] --- Ember is now known as DarkeZzz
[17:13:33] <Colourless> [13:25:29] <-- Kirben has left IRC ("System Meltdown")
[17:13:33] <Colourless> [13:40:43] --> exultbot has joined #exult
[17:13:52] <wjp> think about it for a second :-)
[17:14:13] <Colourless> sure, those events happened in other channels
[17:14:40] <Colourless> is that the reason?
[17:14:46] <wjp> yes
[17:15:09] <wjp> you only get those events once, even if you see the other person on multiple channels
[17:15:43] <wjp> add to that the fact that exultbot isn't aware of being kicked, ... :-)
[17:17:21] <Colourless> isn't aware of what itself being kicked means. it knew that it got kicked, just didn't know what it meant
[17:17:51] <Colourless> how exactly are irc messages sent?
[17:18:03] <wjp> does your client have a 'raw' window?
[17:18:22] <Colourless> no
[17:19:11] <wjp> standard format is:
[17:19:19] <Colourless> i'm guessing when a message is sent it has a channel specifier and a nick along with the comment
[17:19:25] <wjp> sender COMMAND parameters :data
[17:19:49] <wjp> in the case of 'normal' messages, the only parameter is the channel
[17:19:51] <wjp> like
[17:20:10] <wjp> Colourless!Cless@ppp1157.adelaide.on.net.au PRIVMSG #exult :i'm guessing when a (etc)
[17:21:37] <Colourless> ok. so being joined to a channel just means you are get the messages for that channel
[17:22:28] <-- wjp was kicked from #exult by wjp (test)
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[17:22:50] <wjp> getting kick just makes you receive a 'KICK' message
[17:22:53] <wjp> s/kick/kicked/
[17:22:55] <Colourless> the test was?
[17:23:18] <wjp> :wjp!~wjp@ip503c5297.speed.planet.nl KICK #exult wjp :test
[17:23:29] <wjp> no extra 'PART' messages or anything
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[17:24:09] <wjp> on join I got a
[17:24:11] <wjp> :wjp!~wjp@ip503c5297.speed.planet.nl JOIN :#exult
[17:24:19] <Zxcvb> what all has to happen in si before rotoluncia gives you the magic scroll?
[17:24:44] <wjp> the one with the 'daemon'-interrogation?
[17:24:51] <Zxcvb> aren't you just supposed to ask about the magelord meeting, then ask about a spellbook, and then the messenger comes?
[17:24:54] <Zxcvb> yes
[17:25:09] <Colourless> it's on a time delay
[17:25:15] <Zxcvb> real time, or game time?
[17:25:32] <Colourless> its on 'something' time :-)
[17:25:43] <Zxcvb> if it's game time, then sleeping will speed it up
[17:25:56] <Colourless> and i think 'something' is related to the fps setting in the exult game options menu
[17:26:03] <Colourless> no, sleeping won't help afaik
[17:26:16] <Zxcvb> then it's real time
[17:27:21] <Colourless> if i'm not mistaken, you might be able to go to her place and talk to the automaton and get the scroll from it
[17:27:47] <Colourless> it should just be standing in the middle of the hallway
[17:27:51] <Zxcvb> I was worried that by rushing to moonshade (complete test, do the banquet, get cured, then go to moonshade skipping the rest of fawn), I messed up some flags
[17:28:10] <wjp> I think I did that a few times too
[17:28:17] <Colourless> na. each three sections of the game are pretty much independant
[17:28:32] <Zxcvb> I like to get the spellbook as soon as possible, then go for silver seed just after getting it
[17:28:43] <Colourless> same here
[17:29:06] <Zxcvb> ring of reagents is nice, especially with false coin
[17:29:19] <Colourless> like to be upto level 6 by freedom too, since you get the create automaton spell, which makes freedom rather easy
[17:29:49] <Zxcvb> not sure if it's a bug, but try casting mass might, then quicksave and quickload
[17:30:21] <Colourless> if it odd, and it involves saving and loading.... it's probably not a feature
[17:30:41] <Zxcvb> mass might is then permanent unless you do something that would affect stats, such as protection/curse or mass might again
[17:30:44] <Colourless> s/it odd/it is odd/
[17:31:27] <Zxcvb> or if you take off/put on the strength/dexterity/combat items
[17:32:12] <Colourless> does that 'sound' like a bug to you? :-)
[17:32:32] <Zxcvb> don't know
[17:32:38] <wjp> uh?
[17:32:49] <wjp> if that isn't a bug, then what is? :-)
[17:33:05] <Colourless> effect becomes permanent after saving and reloading game..... very much a bug
[17:33:21] <Zxcvb> it might not be a bug in the same way the list field trainer disappearing sometimes is not a bug
[17:33:36] <wjp> uh?
[17:33:37] <Colourless> that has nothing to do with savegames though :-)
[17:33:43] <wjp> that _is_ a bug
[17:34:04] <Colourless> just a genuine usecode bug from the original gam
[17:34:09] <Colourless> e
[17:34:22] <Colourless> which is just easier to trigger in exult
[17:34:31] <Zxcvb> yeah, the same as create gold not giving you 10 nuggets
[17:35:09] <wjp> yeah, that was something with trying to set the quantity of a non-countable item
[17:35:48] <Zxcvb> could be fixed by making create gold make a gold bar
[17:36:05] <Zxcvb> even with that it's still worse than dragon hunting
[17:36:20] <Colourless> would require a usecode patch
[17:37:01] <Zxcvb> since exult is an interpreter, couldn't exult just catch and redirect those usecode functions?
[17:38:06] <Colourless> sure it could, but exult interperts from multiple data sets
[17:38:23] <Colourless> the data sets of course being different languages, different game versions, etc
[17:38:44] <Colourless> we are not in the business of patching such usecode problems in exult itself
[17:38:55] <Zxcvb> how did game genie handle different data sets?
[17:39:15] <wjp> game genie?
[17:40:06] <Zxcvb> a device that could apply patches to game software, later replaced by game shark
[17:41:18] <wjp> device?
[17:41:34] <wjp> why would you need hardware for that?
[17:41:44] <Zxcvb> it was for console cartriges
[17:42:01] <Colourless> every version of a console game is the same
[17:42:22] <Zxcvb> but most nes/snes/n64 emulators support those codes, even though for example, there were two or three different zelda 1 cartriges
[17:42:34] <Zxcvb> for many games, there were multiple versions
[17:42:43] <wjp> emulators? codes?
[17:42:46] <Colourless> exult runs bg with 3 different game versions (unpatch, patched, forge of virtue) in at least 4 languages (english, french, german, spanish)
[17:42:48] <wjp> I'm totally lost here
[17:43:12] <wjp> how would a 'device' have any effect on an emulator?
[17:43:21] <Zxcvb> yes, for console systems there was a device created called game genie which would patch the game as it was loaded
[17:43:43] <Zxcvb> when emulators for those systems came out, those emulators let you enter game genie codes, and would patch the game in memory
[17:43:54] <Colourless> the code offsets in each version can be entirely different making binary patching of the usecode entirely unreliable
[17:44:27] <wjp> anyway, dinner
[17:44:29] <wjp> I'll bbl
[17:44:40] <Zxcvb> what about the functions
[17:44:53] <Zxcvb> there must be a way to detect when the create gold spell is used
[17:45:19] <Colourless> sure. so what?
[17:45:45] <Zxcvb> when the create gold spell function is called, replace create nugget with create gold bar
[17:46:09] <Colourless> that would be a hack.
[17:46:17] <Colourless> hacks are bad, and should be avoided
[17:48:27] <Colourless> they can come bite you in the ass when you don't realize. Lets say for example, this hack is implemented. Someone else decides to write a new usecode function that just happens to replace the create gold spell usecode function. What happens then? Who knows
[17:49:16] <Zxcvb> you mean someone making their own game?
[17:49:50] <Colourless> yes
[17:50:10] <Zxcvb> detect the game is not ultima 7 and don't use it
[17:50:34] <Zxcvb> unless the use_create_gold_fix_hack is defined somewhere, of course
[17:50:49] <Colourless> or someone wanting to fix the problem the correct way, by writing an entirely new function that correctly creates 10 gold bars
[17:51:41] <Colourless> no one will implement such a hack. It is a trivial problem. If it were a game breaker, then it might be considered
[17:52:09] <Zxcvb> how about the flying carpet over the isle of the avatar bug
[17:52:59] <Colourless> that would be a bit different
[17:53:10] <Colourless> got to do with egg triggering
[17:53:14] <Zxcvb> or the disappearing trainer bug in SI?
[17:53:56] <Zxcvb> though that could be fixed by forcing the avatar and party to take a path that wouldn't trigger it
[17:54:05] <Colourless> we considered the trainer problem, but the hack would be too unpredictable
[17:54:47] <Colourless> it is really a serious flaw with the was the usecode language itself was designed
[17:54:58] <Colourless> s/was/way/
[17:55:00] <Zxcvb> how about checking to see if the trainer is there, and if not, create him
[17:55:36] <Colourless> but how would we know if the trainer is there?
[17:55:48] <Colourless> he is a npc that is created by a usecode function that is egg triggered
[17:55:56] <Colourless> he isn't always sitting in his seat
[17:56:12] <Colourless> the bug itself has the usecode egg being destoryed
[17:57:19] <Zxcvb> so why will restaring the game fix it, if the egg itself is destroyed, as opposed to no longer being set
[17:58:10] <Colourless> uh.... the egg is only destroyed in the current game.
[17:58:39] <Colourless> eggs are just items, which you can't normally see
[17:58:52] <Colourless> as such, the usecode can manipulate them just like normal items
[17:59:03] <Zxcvb> check if the egg is destroyed, and if it is, recreate the egg?
[17:59:28] <Colourless> that would be a valid fix
[18:00:05] <Colourless> but can be slightly unpredictable
[18:00:05] <Zxcvb> the egg says in the same position all the time, right?
[18:00:21] <Colourless> yeah
[18:00:40] <Zxcvb> what would be the problem with that?
[18:01:29] <Colourless> just gets 'issues' as far as version support goes. si has 3 different versions, being english, english +silver seed, spanish
[18:01:29] <Zxcvb> any problems caused by cheating (moving eggs around and such) don't count
[18:01:46] <Colourless> don't know if the same fix would work for all
[18:01:53] <Colourless> usecode function nums could be different
[18:02:01] <Zxcvb> you would have to detect the version, and apply the right fix
[18:02:22] <Colourless> also, as with a gold hack, only specific for serpent isle. could cause issues for new games
[18:02:46] <Colourless> also, this is not a plot stopper either
[18:02:52] <Colourless> it's an annoyance
[18:03:32] <Zxcvb> one other possiblity is a 'create egg' function in the f2 menu
[18:03:56] <Zxcvb> or some way to manually force that egg to be recreated
[18:04:03] <Colourless> in the end it comes down to this: If we fix one, why not fix them all. If we fix them all, exult's source code will become a really really bad mess
[18:04:28] <Colourless> you can use exult studio to recreate the egg if you 'really' wanted to :-)
[18:04:37] <Zxcvb> yeah
[18:04:53] <Zxcvb> wouldn't an acceptable fix be to just add a create/modify egg functon to the f2 menu?
[18:05:09] <Colourless> and if you want gold, just cheat and create more gold :-)
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[18:06:59] <Dominus> hey ho
[18:07:01] <Dominus> just a quick to talk to Colourless
[18:07:06] <Dominus> in private :-)
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[18:29:09] <Dominus> wjp, Colourless, in regard to one of your recent discussions (graphics card): I have Ati Radeon 9700 Pro, Sapphire Ultimate Edition (the one without fans)
[18:29:45] * wjp wonders how linux-support is for that one
[18:30:02] <Colourless> linux support is 'ok' for ATI cards
[18:30:06] <Dominus> and it performs well, only problem is that fastwrite, Ati and my mainboard chipset don't like it each other...
[18:30:35] <Colourless> fastwrite is a feature that everyone says, turn off
[18:30:46] <Colourless> it's unstable in all but the perfect circumstances
[18:30:47] <Dominus> it's supposedly fixed in Ati-drivers but it still craps out when turned on from time to time
[18:31:05] <wjp> hm, I have FW enabled here
[18:31:21] <Dominus> yeah, I wish they would have defaulted it to off when you install new ctalysts
[18:31:40] <Colourless> i have it disabled in bios
[18:32:02] <Colourless> wjp, if your system is unstable, then you might try turning it off :-)
[18:32:13] <Dominus> yeah, that should help, need to remember to turn it off there
[18:32:18] <wjp> haven't seen a crash in months
[18:32:52] <Colourless> so, how heavy is the ultimate edition?
[18:33:08] <Dominus> heavy...
[18:33:47] <Colourless> the 9600 utimate edition looks like it wouldn't be too heavy. the heat sink isn't that big. but the 9700s and 9800s, that thing is huge
[18:33:48] <Dominus> you could probably do the math, the cooler is from Zalman or Zillman or something like this and they should have the weight listed
[18:34:06] <Colourless> Zalman iirc
[18:34:37] <Dominus> it's just a little bit to big so you can'T fit anything else in the slot below...
[18:34:48] <Dominus> hm, actually wrong
[18:35:08] <Dominus> it is of course too big so you can't use the slot directly below the agp
[18:35:16] <Colourless> i never put anything in pci slot 1
[18:50:56] <Dominus> bye all, got to go to cinema (kill bill)
[18:51:04] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("a pooka invited me to Charlie's")
[18:51:38] <Colourless> the sysinternal BSOD screensaver, is impressive in a masochistic way. It really looks like real BSOD. Then it even simulates restarting the computer
[18:52:10] <Colourless> and of course just for fun you have to actually press a key to stop it. moving the mouse, pressing mouse buttons isn't enough :-)
[18:52:33] <Colourless> great thing about it too, it actually simulates BSODs in files that are actually on your computer
[18:53:43] <Colourless> can also turn on simlulated hard drive access for the simulated computer restart too
[18:54:07] <Colourless> thing about it, it looks so real, you could use it to really fool someone.
[19:15:50] <wjp> hehe :-)
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