#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 8 Jan 2004 (GMT)

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[10:54:42] <Fl00der> hello
[10:59:08] <SB-X> hi
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[12:10:22] <Colourless> hi
[12:10:58] <Darke> Nanoo! *bounce*
[12:12:20] <servus> Ooh I found an exult bug
[12:12:25] <servus> A nasty one that requires a game restart
[12:12:29] <Fl00der> hi
[12:12:37] <servus> Maybe it's Ultima 7's fault, but it never happened to me, this is what it was:
[12:13:48] <servus> In serpent isle's Monitor, I attacked a guard near Luther. Luther would then auto-attack me everytime I went into combat forever afterwards, even though I reverted his activity type and current activity in f2-mode. At the banquet, he'd always just attack me forever, and I had to quit. The only solution was to restart the game.
[12:16:02] <Colourless> yeah well, you attacked a friendly
[12:16:15] <servus> The game was moofed forever though
[12:17:32] <Colourless> think of it as a 'feature'. You pissed Luther off :-)
[12:17:40] <Fl00der> :D
[12:18:22] <servus> Oh, I can't kill him either
[12:18:34] <Fl00der> well, do you have to ?
[12:18:36] <servus> He falls to the floor, is insta-healed and screams bloody CHEATER! CHEATER!. It's quite odd
[12:19:02] <Colourless> usecode isn't letting him die obviously
[12:19:08] <Fl00der> well, in black gate...they call cheater cheater if I use cheats but I don't...
[12:19:20] <servus> Oink oink oink?
[12:19:32] <Fl00der> oink?
[12:19:44] <servus> Thou hast failed the revered copy protection
[12:19:45] <Colourless> saying "Cheater" is an exult thing
[12:19:55] <Fl00der> ah...
[12:19:56] <servus> I thought so
[12:19:58] <Fl00der> :)
[12:20:25] <Colourless> happens if you enable god mode iirc
[12:20:43] <Fl00der> I know...
[12:21:23] <Colourless> god mode makes you invulnerable and gives you instakills
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[12:28:12] <servus> So, I guess my point was that NPC 'feelings' are not reset when you leave the area, like in U7.
[12:28:37] <servus> That, and the CPU bog when pathfinding fails
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[12:29:24] <Colourless> well, you know what they say. If you don't like, you go fix it :-)
[12:30:09] <Zxcvb> are some companions supposed to disappear from where you left them (LB's castle) even if you tell them to wait here?
[12:31:56] <Colourless> no
[12:32:19] <Colourless> but think of it as a 'feature'. The companions got bored
[12:32:22] <Colourless> :-)
[12:32:54] <Zxcvb> so what happened, just another exult bug?
[12:32:59] <servus> Is the 'sign at noon' in U7 a special usecode command just for that? I don't remember anything else falling ever
[12:33:22] <Zxcvb> I thought it was whenever LB was under the sign, not just at noon
[12:33:40] <Colourless> yes whenever lb is under the sign
[12:34:12] <servus> I meant the actual sign-falling act
[12:35:50] <Colourless> it original ultima 7
[12:36:11] <Zxcvb> is LB supposed to be resurrectable?
[12:36:16] * servus . o O ( I don't think anybody gets me... oh well )
[12:36:16] <Colourless> no
[12:36:52] <Fl00der> he is just usually at noon under the sign...
[12:37:06] <servus> (I meant the actual animation of it falling)
[12:37:15] <Colourless> what about the animation?
[12:37:16] <Fl00der> what about that ? :P
[12:37:17] <servus> I just wondered if that animation bit was unique...
[12:37:26] <Colourless> yes it is unique
[12:37:26] * servus slaps his head, groans, grins, and walks out the door:)
[12:37:31] <Fl00der> it is
[12:37:35] <Fl00der> :D
[12:38:48] <Zxcvb> try killing batlin with death bolt before heading for the black gate
[12:39:06] <servus> Or armageddon, always the funnest spell in Ultimas
[12:39:38] <Zxcvb> yeah, try armageddon in u8 before heading to the ethereal plane
[12:40:45] <Fl00der> armageddon rules :)
[12:40:56] <Zxcvb> no real armageddon in u9 though (buggiest game on the planet)
[12:41:16] <Fl00der> oh crap
[12:41:17] <Zxcvb> and people complain about morrowind bugs
[12:41:29] <servus> Yes there is! Just cast any spell and hope the ether doesn't blow up the universe (e.g. crash)
[12:41:34] <Fl00der> my mouse doenst work right...
[12:41:41] <servus> I beat U9 :)
[12:42:04] <Fl00der> u9 is easy one to solve
[12:42:14] <Zxcvb> 1.19f is nice, lets you store many more items in the castle or elsewhere
[12:42:28] <Fl00der> yea
[12:42:34] <Zxcvb> Fl00der: not without any cheats or plot holes
[12:42:45] <Zxcvb> Fl00der: after moonglow, travel to minoc then back to moonglow
[12:42:52] <Zxcvb> Fl00der: it will corrupt the game even though raven will take you back there
[12:42:53] <Fl00der> well...true :)
[12:43:12] <Zxcvb> u9 does not support saved games either
[12:43:16] <Zxcvb> it only supports save states
[12:43:29] <Fl00der> yep
[12:43:53] <Zxcvb> otherwise, why 5MB for a saved game unless it was saving the entire state, not just character/location data
[12:44:11] <Colourless> there is a difference?
[12:44:14] <Zxcvb> I assume u9 is usecode based
[12:44:30] <Zxcvb> yes
[12:45:08] <Zxcvb> load up a playstation game in epsxe and do a normal saved game, at most it will be 128k (memory card size), yet a save state will be a good 2-4MB
[12:45:27] <Colourless> yeah well the PS1 only has about 2-4 mb of main memory
[12:45:47] <Colourless> you actually try making a save state out of a PC game and you'll get save games in the 64 MB range
[12:45:47] <Zxcvb> load up office 97 and save a document, then open it in a hex editor
[12:46:08] * servus . o O ( Did I start this? )
[12:46:09] <Zxcvb> you will find passwords, source code you were working on, etc
[12:46:27] <Zxcvb> apparently the word format is a memory dump of the locations where the document is stored
[12:46:37] <Zxcvb> same idea with u9
[12:47:10] <Colourless> the way PC savegames generally work is like this. Each object in the game world is iterated and saved to disk
[12:47:23] <Colourless> state of all game flags then is also saved to disk
[12:47:57] <Colourless> due to the way virtual memory works you can't just save a block of memory to disk
[12:48:33] <Colourless> you try doing that and you've instantly made it impossible to use savegames between different game versions
[12:48:38] <Zxcvb> true, but even morrowind, which keeps track of every item in the game, and lets you drop any item anywhere without decaying doesn't have 5MB saves
[12:48:44] <Zxcvb> then how does zsnes do it?
[12:48:55] <Colourless> ZSNes is an emulator
[12:49:04] <Colourless> completely different to a native game
[12:49:14] <Zxcvb> isn't every ultima since ultima 7?
[12:49:15] <Colourless> it saves the state of the emulated environment
[12:50:09] <Colourless> not really.
[12:50:17] <Darke> The short answer is, no. *grin*
[12:50:25] <Fl00der> =)
[12:50:28] <Zxcvb> usecode is present in u9.exe, so I assume it uses it like u7 does
[12:50:33] <Colourless> game world is independant of the scripting interpreter
[12:51:51] <Colourless> if you have any scripts running at the time of saving you will have to save the state of the script's stack and any registers that the interpreter may support
[12:52:43] <Darke> (The slightly longer answer is, if we reimplemented it using a single large chunk of memory, we preallocated, then malloced/newed all items from it, similar to how the original u8/crusader's memory manager worked, then yes, we could do savestates and we would be emulating. But I don't think you'd like 72Meg (uncompressed) savegame files. *grin*)
[12:53:13] <Zxcvb> no wonder, u9 doesn't compress any of the save at all
[12:53:21] <Zxcvb> I get over 80% compression
[12:54:32] <Zxcvb> currently u9 saves are 2.6mb, but only 620k compressed
[12:55:16] <Colourless> U9 probably saves the state of every object in the world in it's savegames
[12:55:59] <Zxcvb> starts out at 1MB
[12:56:09] <Zxcvb> probably saves the description text of every item too
[12:56:13] <Colourless> some objects may be dynamically created
[12:58:01] <Colourless> often games will only save things from areas that have been loaded from disk, so as you travel from area to area your savegame starts to become bigger
[12:58:44] <Colourless> the first time you enter an area the data is always loaded from the original data.
[12:58:47] <Zxcvb> I think morrowind just uses the diff method
[12:59:04] <Zxcvb> so the more you move/take/drop, the bigger it gets
[13:00:25] <Colourless> a way of doing things is having a 'modified' flag for each object and assigning an object id for each object
[13:00:37] <Colourless> you only save objects with a modified flag in a savegame
[13:01:05] <Colourless> such a method though can be icky to implement
[13:01:35] <Colourless> in general as you would expect PC devs don't bother
[13:01:50] <Zxcvb> or just compress it with zip/gzip/bz2
[13:02:35] <servus> Is there a way to get Crusader to work in XP/Dosbox?
[13:02:41] <servus> I guess that's slightly offtopic *grin*
[13:03:52] <Zxcvb> add a JIT to dosbox?
[13:04:19] <Zxcvb> how large are exult saves when uncompressed usually?
[13:05:25] <Colourless> depends. they tend to get larger as the game progresses
[13:05:34] <Colourless> but about 350 kb would be a reasonable size
[13:06:10] <Colourless> Serpent Isle games though are larger
[13:06:56] <Colourless> 500+ kb isn't unreasonable for SI
[13:10:04] <Zxcvb> u8 uses over 70MB RAM?
[13:10:58] <Darke> No, u8 only uses around 40Meg, IIRC. The crusaders use around 70Meg.
[13:11:16] <Darke> This, of course, presumes you have more ram then that. If you're only running u8 on an 16Meg machine, well that's all it'll want.
[13:11:57] <Zxcvb> any idea what causes the semi-permanent mass might?
[13:12:07] <Colourless> U8 engine is very flexible
[13:12:09] <Darke> It's neat enough to load all the data into memory if you have enough.
[13:12:29] * Darke *loves* the u8 engine's memory manager. 'S cool.
[13:12:32] <Colourless> Zxcvb: think of it as a feature :-)
[13:12:41] <Colourless> i have no idea what causes Exult's bugs
[13:12:53] <servus> No it's not, darke :: it doesn't run on Dosbox :P
[13:13:02] * Darke blames exult's programmers for exult's bugs.
[13:13:12] <Colourless> U8 runs in Dosbox here :-)
[13:13:17] <servus> Crusader doesn't.
[13:13:19] <Colourless> albiet barely
[13:13:26] <servus> I run U8 in Windows
[13:13:27] <Colourless> s/albiet/albeit/
[13:13:29] <Darke> servus: That is merely a fault of dosbox then, not of the wonderful memory manager. *noddle*
[13:13:44] <servus> *Cough*Voodoo-ish*Cough*:)
[13:13:54] <Colourless> I mean i don't blame System Shock CD for not running in Dosbox. I blame dosbox :-)
[13:14:16] <Colourless> actually U8/Crusaders problems aren't really it's memory manager.
[13:14:35] <Colourless> It does some really nasty stuff to protected mode
[13:15:17] <Colourless> U7's voodoo attempts to run un flat real mode
[13:16:13] <Zxcvb> 32 bit real mode, eew
[13:18:40] <Colourless> the u8 engine loves screwing with interrupts
[13:19:00] <Colourless> almost everything in the engine runs off of interrupts
[13:21:46] <servus> Even bunnies?
[13:22:20] <Colourless> u8 doesn't have bunnies
[13:22:34] * Darke just interrupts. *bounce*
[13:22:54] * servus snickers
[13:23:11] <servus> U8 has big scary daemons though,that's the next best thing!
[13:23:28] <servus> U8 even has a hillbilly-millionaire daemon
[13:24:20] <servus> (In Pyros' world there's a book in a daemon's house with a daemonic version of the Beverly Hillbillies theme)
[13:25:46] <Zxcvb> is that why I can talk to rhian, drink a purple potion, steal from her, talk with her again, and once the conversation is over quickly drink a red potion and be able to steal anything without being killed?
[13:28:10] <Zxcvb> http://it-he.org/u8_hang.htm
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[13:34:38] <Nadir> hi
[13:34:54] <servus> Hi Nadir, seen your Zenith lately?
[13:35:05] <Nadir> nope
[13:35:18] <Nadir> I have a question for Darke
[13:35:29] <Nadir> Darke: are you there ?
[13:35:41] * Darke is indeed here... well... mostly. *grin*
[13:36:10] <Zxcvb> Colourless: is that trick likely messing with interrupts?
[13:36:13] <Darke> Body but not mind? Hmm... actually, mind's here, sanity just went for a walk quite a while ago and hasn't returned, but other then that!
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[13:36:57] * WishStone greets the quite full room
[13:37:19] <Nadir> I'm compiling latest Exult with a gcc 3.3.3 prerelease
[13:37:28] * Darke greets the quite full dragon. (At least he hopes so, he'd prefer not to be fricacied rabbit.)
[13:37:57] <Nadir> In file included from ucparse.yy:39:
[13:37:57] <Nadir> ../ucscriptop.h:39: error: `remove' redeclared as different kind of symbol
[13:37:57] <Nadir> /usr/include/stdio.h:152: error: previous declaration of `int remove(const
[13:37:57] <Nadir> char*)'
[13:38:08] <WishStone> Not had breakfast OR lunch yet, so it's your lucky day, bunny
[13:38:22] <Nadir> but I see that the enum in ucscriptop.h is wrapped inside a namespace.
[13:38:29] <Nadir> why does it do that ?
[13:39:30] <Darke> Hrm... good questtion. the stdio.h one is properly std:: namespaced...
[13:40:36] <Darke> And ucscript.h's is also namespaced...
[13:41:09] <Darke> ... erm... but you're including it from a C file? the ucparse.yy?
[13:41:23] <Darke> Actually, that should be compiled c++...
[13:42:35] <WishStone> So, in plain english/ It dosn't like him? ;]
[13:43:47] <Nadir> Well, it does it for objs/flags.h with the "read" enum
[13:43:53] <Darke> WishStone: I'll make a tentative 'yes' for that.
[13:45:29] <Darke> There's no `using namespace std;` 's hiding around anywhere? Or the particular commandline option that sets that as default isn't set? (Sorry, can't remember the name of it...)
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[13:49:28] <Darke> I suppose the obvious, (and no doubt difficult to test) question is, does he current configure work fine with gcc3.3.2?
[13:50:48] <Colourless> uh, hi WishStone
[13:51:43] * WishStone smiles at the crystal dragon
[13:53:15] <Darke> Nadir: Hrm... given I can't get the compiler to compile, with 3.3.2. Bison version?
[13:54:41] <SB-X> hi WishStone
[13:54:50] <WishStone> huhu
[13:55:01] <SB-X> gu?
[13:55:41] <Nadir> 1.875a
[13:56:59] <Darke> Cool. Same as me. Downgrading to 1.35 atm, I'm guessing it's just a bison problem. Will find out in a moment.
[13:59:05] <Darke> Ok, that fixed the problem compiling that for me.
[14:00:16] <Darke> Though I must admit I was getting a different error message to you, I suspect that may be because of a compiler difference though, can't be sure.
[14:05:13] <Nadir> but I get the same error without the Bison stuff in flags.h
[14:05:48] <Darke> Oh. Hrm...
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[15:09:17] <Colourless> hi
[15:09:20] <wjp> hi
[15:09:40] <wjp> hm, terminal settings are screwed up. My own nick is white on white
[15:09:51] <wjp> (which is rather hard to read, as I'm sure you can imagine)
[15:10:31] <wjp> there, better :-)
[15:11:08] <Colourless> eh, as far as we know, you could be lying through your teeth, just trying to make yourself seem interesting :-)
[15:11:48] <wjp> what, you mean I'm only interesting if I talk about terminal colours?
[15:12:59] <Colourless> interesting as in something out of the ordinary
[15:16:25] * Darke balances a penguin on wjp's head. There, *now* he's interesting!
[15:21:17] <wjp> well, it's definitely out of the ordinary, yes :-)
[15:23:38] * Wishy|afk wonders over her shopping list
[15:23:47] <Wishy|afk> What should I make for dinner? Hm....
[15:23:56] <Colourless> rabbit stew
[15:24:16] * Wishy|afk eyes Darke
[15:24:18] <Wishy|afk> Hm!
[15:24:24] <Wishy|afk> Would safe time on ths shopping!
[15:24:27] <Colourless> fresh too!
[15:24:33] <Wishy|afk> Indeed, indeed
[15:25:24] * wjp hands Wishy|afk an ACME rabbit-catcher
[15:25:29] <Wishy|afk> Hm... the light outside is funny... it's filtered througha thick layer of clouds and somehow just turned into a muddy yellow...
[15:25:54] <wjp> "outside"? what's that?
[15:26:44] <Wishy|afk> ;]
[15:26:53] <Wishy|afk> you know, where air comes from
[15:27:02] <Colourless> plants?
[15:27:17] * Darke watches as the rabbit-catcher backfires and somehow manages to catch everyone on the channel, but him... shoddy ACME products!
[15:27:45] <Wishy|afk> Oh, I know!
[15:28:10] * Wishy|afk scribbles down chicken liver, chicken filets, champignons.
[15:28:16] <Wishy|afk> Still got cream and white wine...
[15:33:48] * Wishy|afk is off
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[16:10:13] <Wishy|afk> Ah well...
[16:10:16] --- Wishy|afk is now known as WishStone
[16:10:26] <WishStone> They didn't have chicken, so I took rabbit liver
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[16:55:59] <wjp> hi again
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[23:30:39] <WishStone> *grumbles dakrly about pirating on Exult*
[23:30:57] <WishStone> Before long, EA might crack down and bring everything to a halt because of a few fuckwits :/