#exult@irc.freenode.net logs for 8 Nov 2012 (GMT)

Archive Today Yesterday Tomorrow
Exult homepage


[00:00:50] <Marzo> Uff... while fixing the sitting on air bug, I ran across two segfaults -- one relating to street maintenance (shutters, lights) and one relating to opening/closing doors
[00:01:04] <Marzo> The fix to the opening/closing may have side-effects, though
[00:01:13] <Marzo> *opening/closing doors
[00:01:24] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[00:03:31] --> Dominus2 has joined #exult
[00:03:54] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[00:06:19] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[00:15:37] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[00:15:38] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[00:16:41] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[00:19:14] <-- Dominus2 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[00:19:49] --> Dominus2 has joined #exult
[00:20:01] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[00:21:25] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[00:21:26] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[00:23:14] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[00:24:11] <-- Dominus2 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[00:26:49] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[00:30:01] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[00:31:36] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[00:31:36] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[00:31:59] <-- shazza has left IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[00:35:00] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[00:40:16] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[00:43:32] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[00:46:11] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[00:46:11] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[00:48:14] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[01:00:06] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[01:03:40] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[01:09:33] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[01:09:33] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[01:12:03] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
[02:10:47] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[02:12:25] --> Dominus2 has joined #exult
[02:13:00] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
[02:15:47] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[02:20:26] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus2
[02:20:26] --- Dominus2 is now known as Dominus
[02:25:24] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[02:25:44] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[02:25:44] --- Dominus is now known as Guest54812
[02:25:45] <-- Guest54812 has left IRC (Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[02:25:45] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[02:38:19] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[02:40:32] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
[02:43:43] --> nutron has joined #exult
[02:49:56] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[02:49:56] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[02:52:41] --> Dominus2 has joined #exult
[02:52:56] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[02:55:54] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[03:13:12] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[03:13:12] <-- Dominus2 has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[03:13:12] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[03:19:06] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[03:20:26] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[03:20:27] --- Dominus is now known as Guest79648
[03:20:27] <-- Guest79648 has left IRC (Killed (moorcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[03:20:27] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[03:22:56] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[03:23:10] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[03:23:10] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Killed (rajaniemi.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[03:23:10] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[04:10:18] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[04:14:14] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[07:02:17] --> shazza has joined #exult
[07:22:05] --> D3c1p43r_ has joined #exult
[07:25:18] <-- shazza has left IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[07:34:27] <-- Dominus1 has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[07:34:32] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[07:34:33] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[08:41:22] --> Rottingbeef has joined #exult
[10:07:27] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[10:07:27] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[11:02:52] <Dominus1> how annoying my connection is. and it's not even my internet connection but my own network... *hate* it...
[11:04:04] <Dominus1> Marzo, what triggered the segfaults and how can the fix for the doors have a side effect?
[11:04:47] <Marzo> It could have; but now that I am thinking about it, the side-effect will most likely be good
[11:05:20] <Marzo> As in, force NPCs to stop doing stuff even more than they already are
[11:06:24] <Dominus1> hmm, so if the blacksmith schedule would work like the original it *might* have a side effect :)
[11:06:43] <Marzo> Better a side-effect than a segfault :-)
[11:06:56] <Dominus1> (just mentioning the blacksmith schedule since I observed it the other day in the original and was amazed how detailed it was
[11:07:18] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[11:07:18] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[11:08:00] <Marzo> The key issue in these segfaults is the NPC doing something with an object through an Actor_action
[11:09:29] <Marzo> One of the segfaults was that the NPC was closing shutters while I teleported
[11:10:07] <Marzo> The schedule sets up an Actor_action to change the shutter's frame in the middle of the frame sequence
[11:10:42] <Dominus> woha, hard to reproduce when someone would report such a crash "crashed at x:y!"
[11:11:34] <Marzo> When causing a cache-out, if the action was already setup, it would continue to execute even though the NPC became dormant
[11:12:33] * Dominus is comitting the cheat_screen keyboard commands patch from last night
[11:13:02] <Marzo> So I added some code that causes the action to be removed when the schedule is set to dormant
[11:13:44] <Marzo> Unfortunately, the actions are too transient to safely use the object gone notification; but when possible, I had the parent schedule handle the case
[11:14:07] <Dominus> really good that you caught that
[11:14:41] <Marzo> I caught while I was trying to solve the sitting on air bugs
[11:14:57] <Dominus> yeah I read that.
[11:15:13] <Marzo> I kept getting a segfault when trying to teleport away, so I handled it first
[11:15:41] <Dominus> looking forward to see how you handle those air sitting bugs
[11:16:38] <Marzo> For reference, the sitting on air bug happens because the schedule is reset due to the cache out, but after a schedule change, the NPC teleports to the location set in his/her schedule data
[11:17:22] <Marzo> And some schedules (such as eating at inns) don't try to look for a chair once they are in a sitting position
[11:17:59] <Marzo> So I changed several schedules to reset the current frame to standing position when the schedule goes dormant
[11:18:01] <Dominus> ah, the schedule gets reset, I thought it just goes dormant or so and then continues but sends the NPC back to the starting point
[11:19:07] <Marzo> Well, the schedule is technically not reset
[11:19:34] <Marzo> How it is reset depends on what it does on its im_dormant method, which most don't have
[11:19:58] <Dominus> so sleeping is fixed as well?
[11:20:02] <Marzo> Part of the problem is also that we don't save the current schedule state as the original does
[11:20:05] <Marzo> Yes
[11:20:41] <Marzo> But at present, the fix in both cases is that the NPC will be standing then go to the bed or chair quickly
[11:22:37] <Dominus> hmm, wouldn't it be better to just not allow changing position if the position is really near the schedule location? and not change the frame? But I have no idea how feasible that would be
[11:22:48] <Marzo> Although I could try seeing if the NPC is close enough to the schedule destination
[11:23:07] <Marzo> Hehe, we just had the same idea
[11:23:17] <Dominus> yeah :)
[11:23:32] <Dominus> mostly because wjp and me already talked about it the other day
[11:24:14] <Dominus> some recap at https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=102335&aid=2719334&group_id=2335
[11:27:22] <Marzo> Ah, the swap positions -- I changed it to prevent a swap if the actor is sitting, bending over, kneeling or laying down
[11:27:47] <Dominus> I was about to ask whether you did something for that too :)
[11:28:06] <Marzo> I also made NPCs less likely to teleport if their target destination is on-screen
[11:29:24] * Dominus is really looking forward to these changes :)
[11:38:12] <Marzo> Whelp, only checking the distance isn't perfect
[11:38:42] <Marzo> With 16 tiles of "grace", there is still a few cases that show someone sitting on air
[11:39:09] <Marzo> Depends on how far the person sits from the designated destination
[11:39:12] <Dominus> strange
[11:39:27] <Marzo> It is a lot better, though
[11:40:17] <Marzo> Let me try with 20
[11:41:32] <Marzo> 20 also not enough
[11:43:51] <Dominus> how far are they away for 20 not being enough?
[11:44:01] <Marzo> Hm. Gaye keeps sitting on air despite her being a mere 4 tiles from her target location
[11:44:46] <Marzo> Everyone else at the Blue Boar at 18:00-21:00 period sits at their proper spots
[11:44:58] <Marzo> With 16 tiles away, even
[11:46:16] <Dominus> so maybe another if that if the NPC is in sleeping or sitting frame and *NOT* in bed/chair reset frame?
[11:53:51] <Marzo> OK, done
[11:54:19] <Dominus> ui ui ui ui....
[11:54:21] <Marzo> I was incorrectly letting it fall through to set the schedule to walk_to_schedule
[11:54:52] <Marzo> So if the NPC was more than 2 tiles away, he was teleported to the schedule location
[11:55:01] <Marzo> In Gaye's case, she was 3 tiles away
[11:56:15] <Marzo> Sleeping also worked
[11:56:33] <Marzo> Although the NPCs flashed a standing frame for 1 tick
[11:57:58] <Dominus> sleeping has two other problems not related: when you wake an NPC the bed is instantly made up - not sure how the original handled that when a bed was made up instead of untidied
[11:58:47] <Dominus> and sleeping on higher floors is nearly impossible if there is a bed remotely in the area on the ground floor
[12:00:03] * Dominus apologizes to Marzo - I've got the habit to bring on all remotely related problems when speaking about a certain problem
[12:03:02] <Marzo> Hm. It seems to find the closest bed to where the NPC is, including z coordinate
[12:03:28] <Marzo> Would this be trying to get the avatar to sleep on high ground?
[12:04:28] <Marzo> Hm. That seems to work too
[12:08:08] <Marzo> Anyway, I got to go now; be back later
[12:08:39] <Marzo> (once firefox finishes restarting, anyway)
[12:10:11] <Dominus> :)
[12:11:26] <Dominus> the extreme spot is Christophers house in Trinsic. The 1st floor bed is directly on top of the ground floor one and I can't get the avatar to sleep there...
[12:12:24] <Marzo> Ah, I can see it now
[12:12:51] <Marzo> It could be an usecode problem
[12:16:25] <Marzo> Seems to be a problem with the nap_time intrinsic
[12:19:10] <Marzo> No, it is usecode
[12:20:47] <Dominus> hmm, works in the original though
[12:20:54] <Marzo> It does?
[12:21:03] <Marzo> Hm. So maybe it *is* in the intrinsic
[12:21:26] <Marzo> Anyway, I really got to go now
[12:21:33] <Marzo> Will check on it later
[12:21:39] <Marzo> Bye
[12:26:18] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[12:40:40] --> TheCycoONE has joined #exult
[12:58:28] <-- Kirben has left IRC ()
[13:09:45] --> TheCycoTWO has joined #exult
[13:10:08] <-- TheCycoONE has left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[13:29:12] --> shazza has joined #exult
[14:03:49] --> Smoke_ has joined #exult
[14:04:13] <Smoke_> You guys really need to grow up.
[14:04:54] <Smoke_> I was attempting to help you.
[14:05:23] <Smoke_> You didn't want "theretical" advice, so I was going to show you with code.
[14:06:31] <Smoke_> You claim my plugin API wouldn't be powerful, but, most major companies use this method. (Python\Lua)
[14:07:59] <Eviltar_> is it portable to mac
[14:08:07] <Smoke_> Yes
[14:08:08] <Eviltar_> and linux, xbox, psp, gp2x ?
[14:08:15] <Smoke_> The same thing can be done in C++
[14:08:23] <Smoke_> Coding ideas are portable.
[14:08:28] <Eviltar_> why not do it in c++
[14:08:39] <Eviltar_> exult is already portable
[14:08:41] <Smoke_> Because I didn't want to spend ten hours fixing the project to make it compile
[14:08:52] <Smoke_> Why don't you support VC10
[14:08:58] <Eviltar_> i didnt have problems with the msvc projects
[14:09:07] <Eviltar_> when i porte it to xbox360
[14:09:10] <Smoke_> Try it in MSVC 2010
[14:09:16] <Eviltar_> i did
[14:09:20] <Smoke_> Bull
[14:09:27] <Eviltar_> iirc
[14:09:28] <Smoke_> Send me a working a project
[14:09:37] <Eviltar_> first i converted to msvc 2008
[14:09:38] <Smoke_> the solution files
[14:10:27] <Eviltar_> then to 2010
[14:10:42] <Eviltar_> sometimes you have to edit them by hand to ge them to convert but whats the big deal
[14:10:55] <Smoke_> Anyways, my API is based on a C++ project, the same applies, and then C++ becomes the scripting language.
[14:10:59] <Eviltar_> they(exult) arent trying to fight with you, just explain
[14:11:13] <Eviltar_> it seems like you want to make a branch
[14:11:16] <Eviltar_> or start over
[14:11:29] <Eviltar_> but for them to accept your contribution
[14:11:43] <Eviltar_> it has to build on mac, linux, windows, all from he makefile
[14:11:59] <Eviltar_> so they can test it, and keep workign on their shit
[14:12:18] <Smoke_> I still don't believe you easily made this work in VC10.
[14:12:36] <Smoke_> And if you DID, why didn't you share the updates so others could benefit
[14:12:48] <Eviltar_> buddy, if you have been doing this long, you know a lot of time, 2005 msvc projects dont always cleanly convert
[14:13:00] <Smoke_> If you care so much about supporting other platforms, why not this one? Why all the extra hassle on my end?
[14:13:13] <Eviltar_> you'r the only one having hastle
[14:13:18] <Eviltar_> i am not exult
[14:13:25] <Smoke_> I see
[14:13:26] <Eviltar_> i am a dude chilling in here with them
[14:13:27] <Smoke_> But,
[14:13:51] <Smoke_> The point is, I bet the mac version builds, I bet the linux version builds, etc, why not the VC version
[14:13:58] <Eviltar_> it does
[14:14:01] <Smoke_> No
[14:14:03] <Eviltar_> why dont you have 2005
[14:14:12] <Smoke_> Because it's 2012
[14:14:13] <Eviltar_> on my dev pc
[14:14:23] <Smoke_> I update with the times
[14:14:23] <Eviltar_> i have 2005, 2008, and 2010 insalled
[14:14:36] <Smoke_> Yeah, install 2012 and see what happens.
[14:14:43] <Eviltar_> im good on that
[14:15:10] <Smoke_> Every project I work on, updates to VC10 fine, or they provide an updated solution file.
[14:15:19] <Smoke_> This is their failure.
[14:15:32] <Eviltar_> maybe every other project has had people using msvs and updating
[14:15:42] <Eviltar_> it's kind of a crutch to coding tbh
[14:15:43] <Smoke_> Exactly, they don't care about my platform.
[14:15:56] <Eviltar_> try building it for windows from gcc
[14:15:59] <Eviltar_> ;)
[14:16:01] <Smoke_> God no
[14:16:06] <Smoke_> I hate that crap
[14:16:18] <Eviltar_> so your limitation, not theirs
[14:16:21] <Smoke_> I've done PS2 development.
[14:16:30] <Smoke_> So, I've used cygwin, etc,.
[14:16:39] <Eviltar_> why dont you fix the msvs project for 1020
[14:16:42] <Smoke_> It's awful, like being back in the DOS days
[14:16:48] <Eviltar_> msvc* 2010
[14:17:05] <Eviltar_> read the errors when it converts
[14:17:09] <Eviltar_> and fix it
[14:17:32] <Eviltar_> im still doing xbox360 dev
[14:17:38] <Eviltar_> from a gcc toolchain
[14:18:03] <Smoke_> It's too much work to prove a point.
[14:18:08] <Eviltar_> its more bare metal, i kind of miss intellisense, but not so much, I've grown more
[14:18:28] <Smoke_> My .Net project builds, and demonstrates the techniques.
[14:18:40] <Eviltar_> so make a branch
[14:18:53] <Smoke_> i was going to release once, and HOPE they understood what I was saying in code, since words failed.
[14:18:54] <Eviltar_> exult.net
[14:19:13] <Smoke_> I might
[14:19:20] <Smoke_> I'm still working on it.
[14:19:24] <Eviltar_> but there are also issues with useing/disributing game files
[14:19:31] <Smoke_> I won't be
[14:19:43] <Eviltar_> and please if you use their code as a base give them credit
[14:19:46] <sh4rm4> aha, the .net lamer is here
[14:19:55] <Smoke_> I'm going to read them in at runtime, and restructure them into my own formats in memory.
[14:20:04] <Smoke_> And who are you
[14:20:33] <Smoke_> I may be a lamer, but, I understand advanced coding techniques.
[14:20:46] <Eviltar_> smoke, jsut saying, these guys have spent decades workign on this
[14:21:04] <Eviltar_> to call names and be so aggressive is unnescicary and explains the response your'e getting
[14:21:15] <Smoke_> They started it.
[14:21:18] <Smoke_> I made a suggestion
[14:21:22] <Eviltar_> well be bigger and end it
[14:21:24] <Smoke_> They could have ignored it
[14:21:35] <Smoke_> Why, then they think they've won
[14:21:43] <Eviltar_> no one wins
[14:21:46] <Smoke_> Oh, he left because he knew he was wrong.
[14:22:06] <Eviltar_> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29229104/picdump/arguing%20on%20the%20interenet.jpg
[14:22:10] <Eviltar_> reflect on this
[14:22:19] <Smoke_> For people to have run a project for 15 years, they sure don't know how to deal with end users.
[14:22:23] <Smoke_> that have
[14:22:41] <Eviltar_> thats why engineers dont talk to people
[14:22:41] <Smoke_> You ignore people, not start flame wars with them.
[14:22:51] <Smoke_> Agreed
[14:23:05] <Smoke_> They are a difficult bunch, engineers
[14:23:16] <Smoke_> haha
[14:23:33] <Smoke_> Look, I honestly wanted to help them, and I've been attacked, they took it so personally.
[14:23:41] <Smoke_> I don't get it.
[14:23:50] <Eviltar_> i can relate
[14:23:56] <Smoke_> It was a suggestion, read it, ignore it, if U don't agree.
[14:24:01] <Eviltar_> dude
[14:24:10] <Eviltar_> when i started the xbox360 port
[14:24:13] <Smoke_> What, I have trouble letting things go.
[14:24:22] <Smoke_> go on
[14:24:34] <Eviltar_> they were like oh great, another guy hacking up our work not releasing a patch that will merge for all builds
[14:24:42] <Smoke_> I bet.
[14:24:54] <Eviltar_> i didnt understand at first
[14:25:03] <Smoke_> though it's pretty hacked up to begin with, no offense.
[14:25:14] <Eviltar_> after 15 years of revisions
[14:25:20] <Eviltar_> not suprising
[14:25:24] <Smoke_> Get er done code, is what I call it..
[14:25:43] <Eviltar_> consider what it does
[14:25:48] <Smoke_> I know
[14:25:52] <Eviltar_> and they did it without the game source
[14:25:54] <Smoke_> the file formats are whacked out.
[14:26:00] <Eviltar_> its kind of amazing really
[14:26:05] <Smoke_> Ultima is a mess
[14:26:10] <Smoke_> I give them props
[14:26:34] <Smoke_> At the same time, I write code to get it done, then revise to strong OOP versions immediately.
[14:26:41] <Eviltar_> it is all about the love of ultima
[14:27:01] <Smoke_> Yeah, like I said, I give them credit, it's not easy, I'm a reverse engineer myself.
[14:27:09] <Eviltar_> what is the error its giving you when you convert the project
[14:27:19] <Smoke_> It's on the forums.
[14:27:37] <Eviltar_> sorry i dont read the forums since exult is not my baby if you have a link handy
[14:27:46] <Smoke_> yeah
[14:27:57] <Smoke_> http://exult.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=441110&t=441110
[14:28:21] <Smoke_> Towards the end, I pasted the error list.
[14:28:33] <Eviltar_> iirc i changed this to
[14:28:34] <Eviltar_> #elif (_MSC_VER == 1300 || _MSC_VER >= 1400)
[14:29:16] <sh4rm4> <Eviltar_> and please if you use their code as a base give them credit
[14:29:25] <sh4rm4> if he uses the code he's bound to the GPL
[14:29:28] <Eviltar_> i dont remember how i fixed the NMAKE
[14:29:36] <Eviltar_> ofc
[14:29:42] <Smoke_> Well, I can't technically use their code, since C++\C# aren't compatible.
[14:29:47] <Eviltar_> best one can say is please
[14:30:02] <Smoke_> I have to rewrite it.
[14:30:15] <sh4rm4> what does that mean ?
[14:30:26] <Eviltar_> that he's branching
[14:30:30] <Smoke_> It means I have to credit them for all their work, but, NOT for my code.
[14:30:33] <sh4rm4> copying it, and doing a couple of changes so it is valid c# ?
[14:30:46] <Smoke_> Not at all
[14:31:02] <Smoke_> I have to change everything, most C++ techniques won't work in C#..
[14:31:04] <sh4rm4> if you look at it, and do the same thing in another language, it's still a copy
[14:31:15] <Smoke_> No, not really.
[14:31:22] <sh4rm4> sure
[14:31:24] <Smoke_> By that reasoning
[14:31:29] <sh4rm4> you copy the algorithms and logic
[14:31:30] <Eviltar_> i dont see the errors from converting the project
[14:31:35] <Smoke_> They should be sued by the creators of the FLEX file format
[14:31:36] <Eviltar_> only build errors
[14:31:39] <sh4rm4> and merely adapt it slightly so that it compiles
[14:39:51] <TheCycoTWO> Smoke_: I think if you want to be safe you have to do it black box, if you read their code to transcribe it then it's probably best to keep the existing copyright notices
[14:40:05] --> Marzo has joined #exult
[14:40:47] <Smoke_> I'm not sure though, it's not much different than looking at the file fomat stuff in the u7Tech.txt
[14:41:52] <TheCycoTWO> IANAL, just better to play things safe I think.
[14:42:07] <Marzo> Having looked at the logs, I have to say sh4rm4 is right
[14:42:50] <Marzo> Looking at our code and writing code that does the same is a derivative work and is bound by the GPL
[14:43:18] <Marzo> Look up 'clean room' reverse engineering
[14:43:36] <TheCycoTWO> that's what I was saying about doing it black box
[14:43:48] <Marzo> And yes, we could be sued by EA if they could be arsed
[14:44:02] <Smoke_> I have a PM going.
[14:44:06] <Smoke_> Sorry.
[14:44:10] <Marzo> (but there is no money in suing fans)
[14:44:35] <TheCycoTWO> EA's sent cease and disist to fans before, like the guy that did Ultima 4 in flash.
[14:45:16] <sh4rm4> the modern PC BIOS is based on a cleam-room reverse engineering of the IBM PC BIOS
[14:45:27] <sh4rm4> done by compaq
[14:45:32] <Smoke_> I'll have to look it up "Clean Room"
[14:45:32] <Marzo> True; but they have been largely silent about Exult
[14:45:37] <sh4rm4> they couldn't be sued for that
[14:45:48] <Smoke_> You can sue for all sorts of things.
[14:45:58] <Smoke_> Spilling hot coffee on yourself, etc,.
[14:46:10] <sh4rm4> so i dont see how they can sue you for reverse engineering the u7 data files
[14:46:15] <Smoke_> I saw a guy sue his wife for having plastic surgery
[14:46:28] <Smoke_> False advertisement, I guess.
[14:47:15] <Marzo> Basically, in 'clean room' reverse engineering, someone does the reverse engineering, writes a white paper describing the functionality and someone else writes new code based on this description
[14:47:39] <sh4rm4> a person that never looked at existing code.
[14:48:02] <Smoke_> Interesting.
[14:48:12] <TheCycoTWO> iirc openttd wasn't originally clean room, so there's a slight chance people could go after them.
[14:48:18] <Smoke_> I do both myself, usually, but DOS reversing looks annoying.
[14:48:28] <Marzo> It is the only way to 'dodge' the derivative works clause of copyright law
[14:48:48] <TheCycoTWO> well... it's GPL, so the easy alternative is to just include the existing licence
[14:48:53] <Marzo> It is exceedingly annoying
[14:49:00] <Smoke_> SlimDX is MIT
[14:49:07] <Smoke_> C# is open for use.
[14:49:13] <Smoke_> So where would that leave me.
[14:49:19] <TheCycoTWO> fine
[14:49:19] <Smoke_> Assuming I give you credit
[14:49:35] <TheCycoTWO> MIT is compatible, system libraries have an exemption
[14:49:44] <Smoke_> So it's all good, nice.
[14:49:46] <TheCycoTWO> you just need to keep the GPL headers in your code
[14:49:49] <Smoke_> Not sure I'll pursue it.
[14:50:26] <Smoke_> I hate all the release BS.
[14:50:46] <Smoke_> I normally just go: Here my project, my code, do whatever ya want, the end.
[14:51:14] <Smoke_> Licensing really ruins it for me, I'm all about the free spirit of open source.
[14:51:29] <Marzo> GPL or compatible
[14:52:03] <Smoke_> Seriously, why license open source code? (I know why you did)
[14:52:12] <Smoke_> But, the oringal authors.
[14:52:22] <Smoke_> If you're giving it away, let it go.
[14:52:33] <Smoke_> To fly free like a bird, or some hippie crap.
[14:52:41] <Marzo> To protect the community
[14:52:43] <sh4rm4> the point of the GPL is that the user of some SW has a right to get the source code
[14:52:49] <TheCycoTWO> GPL is to ensure that other people also contribute to open source
[14:53:03] <Smoke_> Really, I've never understood this point.
[14:53:18] <Smoke_> I write code, give it away, no strings attached.
[14:53:24] <Smoke_> Where is the down side
[14:53:30] <Smoke_> Someone steals it.
[14:53:34] <sh4rm4> there are a couple of people that took the GPL sourcecode of gnuboy, and then released modified version (i.e. for the NDS) as binaryware
[14:53:42] <sh4rm4> that is a clear GPL violation
[14:53:42] <Smoke_> That was the point, they can't steal what I've freely given
[14:53:43] <Marzo> To prevent people from taking the code you wrote, improving and not releasing it back
[14:54:18] <TheCycoTWO> or selling products derived from it instead of contributing them back
[14:54:28] <Eviltar_> ffmpeg case in point
[14:54:30] <sh4rm4> they can sell it
[14:54:40] <Smoke_> Well, that sucks, I agree, but, hear me out.
[14:54:42] <sh4rm4> but they have to give their users the source code when asked
[14:54:50] <Smoke_> I release code, for the purpose of having others use it.
[14:54:53] <TheCycoTWO> right, but they have to make the source and all changes available for free to anyone that asks
[14:54:56] <sh4rm4> and means to compile it
[14:55:03] <Smoke_> So, how can I be made when they do, or they make money doing so.
[14:55:08] <Smoke_> mad
[14:55:14] <sh4rm4> TheCycoTWO, not anyone, but every user
[14:55:19] <Smoke_> That's what I'm saying
[14:55:43] <Eviltar_> some people care
[14:55:45] <Eviltar_> some dont
[14:55:53] <sh4rm4> if you download an iphone app based on GPL code, you're the user, and you have the right to get the sourcecode
[14:55:56] <Smoke_> I just think it's bogging down everything, I try to avoid using any external dependencies whenever possible.
[14:55:59] <TheCycoTWO> If you don't care about that stuff then you can use BSD or MIT or dwtfyw, but the people that make things GPL care
[14:56:13] <Eviltar_> right
[14:56:14] --> Marzo_ has joined #exult
[14:56:19] <Smoke_> Right, I was just asking
[14:56:29] <Smoke_> I never understood the why
[14:56:44] <TheCycoTWO> BSD/MIT say they can use it for whatever they want as long as they don't claim that their version is your version.
[14:57:04] <TheCycoTWO> or that you endorse it
[14:57:14] <Smoke_> I usually just say: Do whatever you want, but credit me for what I've done.
[14:57:22] <Smoke_> So it's similar.
[14:57:37] <sh4rm4> that's irrelevant
[14:57:43] <Smoke_> No it's not.
[14:57:43] <TheCycoTWO> like the old bsd I think, before they dropped the advertising clause
[14:57:47] <sh4rm4> exult is GPL, so you have to care.
[14:57:52] <TheCycoTWO> yeah
[14:57:55] <Smoke_> I'm trying to understand difference licenses.
[14:57:58] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[14:58:01] <Smoke_> No one is talking about Exult
[14:58:17] <Smoke_> We're talking licenses.
[14:58:23] <Dominus> there are endless web sites about different licenses and what they are good for
[14:58:30] <TheCycoTWO> if you were with GPL code it has to stay GPL, which is the point of GPL. LGPL is the same except you can link against it no problem, GPL you can't link against unless your compatible
[14:58:35] <Smoke_> Right, I just wanted the developer reasoning.
[14:58:36] <Dominus> where they come from what they aim at.
[14:58:43] --- Marzo_ is now known as Marzo
[14:59:26] <Dominus> GPL reasoning (in my view - that is not everyone's view) - Release code for free but make sure that changes on it are free for everyone as well
[14:59:26] <Smoke_> I see, well I can understand some it, still, I feel if you release something, that's what you've done, I understand following one if you use code boudn by it.
[14:59:54] <Dominus> pardon me?
[14:59:54] <TheCycoTWO> Yeah, lots of people agree, and they use things like MIT
[14:59:58] <Eviltar_> it probably depends mostly on what you have invested in it
[15:00:27] <Eviltar_> if you busted your ass for 15 years to share ultima with the world, you might care that any improvements come upstream
[15:00:30] <Smoke_> Hmm, well, its certainly interesting, I just hate when it starts causing issues.
[15:00:43] <Smoke_> I've put 10+ years into some projects
[15:00:43] <Dominus> and you have to factor in the time of first release. At the time Exult went public, GPL was the thing to release for
[15:00:47] <Eviltar_> if you spend a weekend doing something, you probably dont care what people do with it
[15:00:56] <Smoke_> Released with 0 BS
[15:01:07] <Smoke_> Seriously, I'm not just talking it, I do it.
[15:01:10] <Eviltar_> i havent spend 10 years on anything
[15:01:14] <sh4rm4> Smoke_, oh, you started coding at the age of 5 ?
[15:01:21] <Smoke_> Who's five.
[15:01:31] <sh4rm4> 15 - 10 = 5
[15:01:40] * Dominus slaps sh4rm4 with a large trout :)
[15:01:57] <sh4rm4> :)
[15:01:58] <Eviltar_> this is where we're supposed to lololol
[15:02:07] <Smoke_> Or trolololol
[15:02:09] <Smoke_> in this case
[15:02:12] <Eviltar_> ha
[15:02:32] <Dominus> anyway, back to the real point, if your project relies on .Net it is not going to be easy to build on other platforms. And don't mention Mono....
[15:02:38] <Smoke_> But seriously, I put tons of work out there, with no BS attached, I understand your bound by certain libs though.
[15:02:52] <Smoke_> yeah, back to your point.
[15:02:56] <Smoke_> sorry.
[15:03:00] <Dominus> and never say again that we don't support your platform. We might not support your compiler but we support Windows
[15:03:06] <Smoke_> But, there is always Mono. :P
[15:03:14] <TheCycoTWO> anyway, in conclusion, lots of people have different motivations for releasing things, that cause them to do so under different conditions, and if you do your own fresh project you get to make up your own. If you are involved with someone elses you have to respect their choices.
[15:03:27] <Smoke_> Yeah
[15:03:28] <Dominus> Mono sucks and will never be on my machine again
[15:03:33] <Smoke_> Haha
[15:03:37] <Smoke_> Yeah, f*ck Mono.
[15:03:55] <Dominus> so outside of Windows it's mostly f*ck .Net...
[15:03:56] <sh4rm4> f*ck microsoft tech
[15:04:01] <Eviltar_> (10:03:25 AM) TheCycoTWO: anyway, in conclusion, lots of people have different motivations for releasing things, that cause them to do so under different conditions, and if you do your own fresh project you get to make up your own. If you are involved with someone elses you have to respect their choices.
[15:04:03] <Marzo> Mono doesn't support latest .net, and slimdx is windows only according to their page
[15:04:05] <Eviltar_> ^^
[15:04:05] <Smoke_> What's with the Windows hate though.
[15:04:18] <Eviltar_> i wish everyone understood working with a team
[15:04:25] <Dominus> there is no Windows hate (except for sh4rm4)
[15:04:38] <Smoke_> I think it's nice
[15:04:40] <sh4rm4> *nod*
[15:04:59] <Smoke_> I've tried various OS's, none do it for me.
[15:05:01] <Marzo> There is hate of Windows lock-in, though
[15:05:08] <Smoke_> But, Windows works the best.
[15:05:15] <Smoke_> I think it's all hardware.
[15:05:17] <sh4rm4> not true
[15:05:18] <Eviltar_> idk smoke
[15:05:26] <Marzo> I disagree
[15:05:27] <Dominus> Marzo spend a lot of time making Exult work nice with Windows Vista and upwards
[15:05:27] <Eviltar_> have you tried debian mint ?
[15:05:29] <Smoke_> I rarely have isuses.
[15:05:39] <Smoke_> then I hear horror stories about Win
[15:05:39] <sh4rm4> my linux system works more stable and faster than even win xp did
[15:05:56] <Dominus> Colourless, main developer of Exult, codes in Windows. Kirben releases Windows Snapshots when there are code changes since almost the bginning of the project
[15:05:58] <Smoke_> I'm like, what are you people doing to make all this bad stuff happen.
[15:06:05] <Eviltar_> as a windows user, debian mint was a nice fit for me, everythign works, sound, wifi, flash, etc..
[15:06:25] <Dominus> I used to be on Windows and am glad I left it behing
[15:06:29] <Eviltar_> i like it more than windows now
[15:06:37] <Smoke_> Hmm.
[15:06:44] <Smoke_> I've never really had issues.
[15:06:49] <Marzo> I started disagreeing on Windows around Vista
[15:06:50] <Smoke_> What did you not like?
[15:06:59] <Smoke_> Vista, garbage, agrees.
[15:07:01] <Eviltar_> i like 7, vita blows
[15:07:07] <Eviltar_> vitsa*
[15:07:10] <Smoke_> Yup XP\Win7
[15:07:22] <Smoke_> I started on v3.1
[15:07:39] <sh4rm4> the problem with windows is that it's a black box
[15:07:39] <Eviltar_> aside from Debian, 7 is the second most stable os I've ever used
[15:07:57] <Smoke_> Yeah, XP is good too.
[15:08:04] <Smoke_> I ran it 24\7 for years
[15:08:04] <sh4rm4> you cant change it, but have to pay for it even if you dont want it
[15:08:05] <Eviltar_> xp was nice for its time
[15:08:10] <Marzo> I simply couln't stand it
[15:08:16] <Eviltar_> but you have to admit its a peice of crap
[15:08:30] <Smoke_> What XP, crap?
[15:08:31] <Eviltar_> linux at that time wasnt always working
[15:08:43] <Eviltar_> so xp may have arguably been better then
[15:08:46] <Marzo> Around the time Vista was released, my old laptop was dying and I had to get a new one
[15:08:46] <Marzo> XP had no drivers for it; linux worked out of the box
[15:08:57] <Dominus> so if you really want to prove a point, get real exult code going and prove with that. taking parts of Exult into a .net slimdx or whatever project will not prove anything.
[15:09:12] <Eviltar_> yeah around vista ubuntu/debian were getting better
[15:09:30] <Smoke_> i think a alternate personality just came out of Dominus.
[15:09:48] <Smoke_> He snapped, it was like some exorcist sh*t.
[15:10:06] <Smoke_> Pea soup of wrong topic.
[15:10:08] <Eviltar_> colourless has been quiet for a while
[15:10:09] <Smoke_> Hit my face.
[15:10:34] <Smoke_> Now.
[15:10:46] <Smoke_> Do you really belive my API for plugins is weak?
[15:10:51] <sh4rm4> btw pre-MSDOS, all software used to be open source
[15:11:07] <sh4rm4> unix system V was distributed with sources
[15:11:16] <sh4rm4> so you could adapt it to your needs
[15:11:44] <sh4rm4> no one wanted to buy sw that he couldnt change
[15:11:50] <Eviltar_> gentooooo
[15:11:57] <sh4rm4> ?
[15:11:57] <Smoke_> Yeah, but, money is good.
[15:12:04] <Marzo> It is not that it is weak: saying it uses/is the .net framework says nothing about its power
[15:12:05] <Smoke_> It drives the economy
[15:12:13] <Smoke_> Yes it does
[15:12:16] <Eviltar_> gentoo is fun if you like to customize all your software
[15:12:21] <Smoke_> You can use all the .Net features.
[15:12:22] <Eviltar_> and have all the source for everything
[15:12:26] <Smoke_> Compare that to your use code.
[15:12:35] <Marzo> All programming languages are equally powerful
[15:12:38] <TheCycoTWO> sh4rm4: that's not true at all -
[15:12:38] <Smoke_> Do you have lambda expressons
[15:12:38] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
[15:12:46] <Smoke_> I do
[15:12:49] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[15:12:49] <sh4rm4> TheCycoTWO, hmm ?
[15:12:50] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[15:13:08] <Eviltar_> fight it out to do it in c++ smoke
[15:13:21] <Smoke_> I can do better
[15:13:24] <Eviltar_> so we can have your changes in all builds
[15:13:26] <sh4rm4> i'm talking about 60ies and 70ies, before MS got the deal with IBM
[15:13:28] <Smoke_> GTA IV Script Hook
[15:13:37] <Smoke_> It uses the same technique
[15:13:39] <Marzo> C++11 does
[15:13:45] <Marzo> Anything you can do in .net you can do without
[15:13:47] <Smoke_> GTA IV Script Hook.Net is where I learned my trick
[15:13:56] <TheCycoTWO> sh4rm4: You're ignoring the whole early pc market, commodore basic etc. You could dump the assembly but they didn't include the source.
[15:14:17] <Marzo> So, as I said, it says nothing about the power of your plugin API
[15:14:21] <sh4rm4> TheCycoTWO, that was all after the first IBM PC came out
[15:14:40] <Eviltar_> before gates stole dos from IBM
[15:14:52] <sh4rm4> wrong
[15:14:53] <TheCycoTWO> now everyone's confused
[15:15:03] <Smoke_> Haha
[15:15:05] <Eviltar_> it kind of looks that way
[15:15:06] <sh4rm4> gates bought a DOS from a freak for 10.000$
[15:15:07] <Smoke_> I'm getting lost
[15:15:11] <Smoke_> PM me Marzo
[15:15:13] <Marzo> You can sometimes code faster; but I disagree about 'better'
[15:15:14] <sh4rm4> and made IBM give them a deal
[15:15:17] <TheCycoTWO> gates licenced dos to IBM, he bought it off of silicon computers or whatever it was called.
[15:15:22] <Eviltar_> when you look in command.com and it says property of IBM
[15:15:35] <Eviltar_> and gates worked for them
[15:15:40] <TheCycoTWO> because gates licenced it to them
[15:15:40] <sh4rm4> TheCycoTWO, nope
[15:15:45] <Eviltar_> but they only copyrighted the name, not the code
[15:16:04] <Smoke_> Seriously, how is my API weak, when it gives U the full power of .Net, which also means C++ interop, etc,.
[15:16:10] <sh4rm4> the DOS bought by gates was made by some hippie in the neighbourhood
[15:16:10] <Marzo> I actually can't chat much right now; I was in a free period between classes
[15:16:10] <Eviltar_> anyway, in my dilluted immagination gates stole dos from ibm after they payed him to write it
[15:16:13] <TheCycoTWO> seatle computers rather
[15:16:34] <Smoke_> Good, ask your professors about this.
[15:16:43] <Smoke_> Maybe they'll have better luck explaining it.
[15:17:09] <Marzo> Explaining that I am right?
[15:17:18] <Dominus> again, smoke, the power of your API has nothing to do with the langauge
[15:17:19] <Smoke_> Game companies use Python\Lua for this same purpose, you can't look at games using them, and say they'd be better with scripting languages.
[15:17:31] <TheCycoTWO> and he payed $75k for it, not $10
[15:17:33] <Marzo> All languages in use are Turing-complete
[15:17:33] <Smoke_> Look at Morrowinds scripting language
[15:17:47] <Smoke_> you think it's better than Python.
[15:17:56] <TheCycoTWO> but the guy he bought it off of ripped it off of cp/m so I don't feel too bad
[15:18:00] <Eviltar_> idk about morrowind, but Oblivion's script engine can blow me
[15:18:00] <Smoke_> You're insane
[15:18:06] <Smoke_> Exactly
[15:18:08] <Smoke_> They suck
[15:18:10] <Dominus> we didn't say that smoke
[15:18:18] <Smoke_> I'm giving you a REAL language to script with
[15:18:29] <Marzo> Exult must support the full U7 -- we *must* support usecode, period
[15:18:34] <Smoke_> My engine exposes all it's features via the API too.
[15:18:36] <Eviltar_> a script engine would be cool
[15:18:42] <Smoke_> You can
[15:18:43] <Eviltar_> why argue that
[15:18:47] <TheCycoTWO> but anyway CP/M was predos and closed source
[15:18:51] <Smoke_> You just need to run it through C++
[15:18:56] <Eviltar_> but i think its just begging please no .NET!!!!
[15:18:56] <Dominus> smoke, no, you are not giving us a real script angine
[15:19:05] <Smoke_> You can do this via an interpreter
[15:19:18] <Dominus> we *have* a script engine...
[15:19:26] <Smoke_> Exactly, now make it use C++
[15:19:26] <Marzo> And adding support for other languages (in this case, python) is something I have considered, but didn't have time to implement
[15:19:46] <Smoke_> GTA IV Script Hook
[15:19:49] <Smoke_> Look itup
[15:20:09] <Eviltar_> did you make thaat?
[15:20:16] <Smoke_> Nope
[15:20:17] <Marzo> Or Gimp plugins; examples abound
[15:20:21] <TheCycoTWO> and so was the OS on the apple afaik 2, which was pre ms-dos.
[15:20:21] <Smoke_> Just thought it was cool
[15:20:26] <Smoke_> And learned how
[15:20:42] <Eviltar_> ah
[15:20:46] <Smoke_> The .Net version was a nightware with no soruce code
[15:20:52] <Smoke_> I had to guess
[15:20:57] <Marzo> But giving unrestricted access to an engine is bad programming practice
[15:21:05] <TheCycoTWO> Smoke_: reflector?
[15:21:14] <Smoke_> Nope
[15:21:17] <Smoke_> Pure guess work
[15:21:34] <Smoke_> I just studied how it worked, and thought really hard, etc,. Then it came to me
[15:21:43] <TheCycoTWO> I think reflector would have worked, unless they obfuscated it. That's what I use when I need to reverse engineer .net.
[15:21:55] <Marzo> And we have enough crashes without giving access to poorly made 3rd party plugins
[15:21:59] <Smoke_> Yeah, but there is also a C++ side
[15:22:16] <Smoke_> The .Net half uses the C++ half to get it's functionality.
[15:22:24] <Smoke_> The C++ half is hacking the .exe
[15:22:31] <Eviltar_> Marzo, if it doesnt add crashes or slowdowns why not
[15:22:41] <Smoke_> then, the .Net version wraps the C++ functions and exposes them.
[15:22:41] <TheCycoTWO> like people usually use lua for?
[15:22:43] <Eviltar_> plugins arent manditory
[15:23:16] <Smoke_> You don't have to hack, since you have access alrady, and .Net is out, so it should be easy.
[15:23:32] <Smoke_> OBSE demonstrates a plugin API via C++
[15:23:38] <Dominus> Eviltar_: it's all pointless. as long as it isn't directly portable it's useless and will never go into main Exult. Period.
[15:23:51] <Marzo> Because the potential form regressions is large, and we need a release somewhat soon
[15:23:58] <Smoke_> Yes you do
[15:24:06] <Smoke_> Need v1.5+
[15:24:07] <Dominus> Eviltar_: not to mention how fragile Ultima 7 gameplay can be
[15:24:13] <Marzo> What Dominus said too
[15:24:16] <Smoke_> :P
[15:24:22] <Eviltar_> if i understand, he has said he could just use c++ only?
[15:24:29] <Smoke_> Yup
[15:24:38] <Smoke_> Look at OBSE for plugin API in C++
[15:24:53] <Smoke_> http://obse.silverlock.org/
[15:25:16] <Smoke_> Then you can make mods via C++ code.
[15:25:17] <sh4rm4> what for do you need plugins ?
[15:25:23] <Eviltar_> and if you think exult is fragile try playing it on a powerpc64 cpu with an atomic operation bug
[15:25:23] <Dominus> *why* should *we* look into this? we don't need it or see the need for it
[15:25:34] <Dominus> Eviltar_: :)
[15:26:03] <Smoke_> you lack imagination, end users don't.
[15:26:09] <sh4rm4> he wants to do plugins just for sake of "can haz plugins?"
[15:26:13] <Smoke_> We want to modify crazy crap.
[15:26:18] <sh4rm4> plugins are usually a bad idea
[15:26:23] <Eviltar_> smoke , do it, then show it
[15:26:30] <Smoke_> I just showed you
[15:26:32] <Smoke_> OBSE
[15:26:33] <Eviltar_> thats why its open source
[15:26:34] <Dominus> Smoke_ what plugins do you imagine?
[15:26:46] <Smoke_> You could have UI mods.
[15:26:50] <Smoke_> Quest mods
[15:26:52] <Smoke_> , etc,
[15:26:55] <Dominus> not a plugin source but what functions do you want?
[15:26:58] <Eviltar_> you can already have mods
[15:27:01] <Dominus> we have quest mods
[15:27:05] <Smoke_> Easily
[15:27:06] <sh4rm4> you only need mods if you dont have the source code
[15:27:20] <Eviltar_> like the hidden exult team mod
[15:27:23] <Smoke_> I want all functions.
[15:27:29] <Eviltar_> where you meet bill gates
[15:27:32] <sh4rm4> you have the source code
[15:27:37] <sh4rm4> there are all functions
[15:27:42] <Dominus> *WHAT* functions?
[15:28:00] <Smoke_> Anything you can dream up.
[15:28:06] <Smoke_> That's the difference
[15:28:11] <Dominus> that's trolling
[15:28:16] <sh4rm4> so you haven't dreamed yet ?
[15:28:22] <Smoke_> No
[15:28:23] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[15:28:34] <Dominus> and exactly the reason why we froze your threads
[15:28:35] <Smoke_> You can do anything via an exposed plugin API
[15:28:50] <sh4rm4> you can do anything already
[15:28:55] <Smoke_> Not easily.
[15:29:04] <Eviltar_> this discussion is moot tho, smoke you need to just do it
[15:29:06] <Smoke_> I have to recompile just to make easy changes.
[15:29:18] <Eviltar_> then show it
[15:29:25] <Smoke_> I did though
[15:29:29] <Dominus> why add such a plugin API for doing anything when there has been *NOONE* including you, that wants to do something with it?
[15:29:31] <Eviltar_> then let them debate if they want to upstream it
[15:29:31] <Smoke_> Look Oblivion
[15:29:36] <Smoke_> at
[15:29:48] <Smoke_> Look at the default modding
[15:29:55] <Smoke_> Then look at what OBSe allows for.
[15:30:03] --> Marzo has joined #exult
[15:30:03] <Eviltar_> its a noble dream smoke
[15:30:06] <Smoke_> They add new features to the game.
[15:30:16] <Smoke_> So, I don't have to ask you
[15:30:18] <Dominus> as can our scripting language
[15:30:19] <Eviltar_> you can already mod ultima with exult tho
[15:30:23] <Smoke_> With plugins I can do this
[15:30:31] <Eviltar_> but if you want to try it your way
[15:30:36] <Eviltar_> just do it
[15:30:41] <Smoke_> I am
[15:30:45] <Smoke_> I have
[15:30:51] <Smoke_> On other projects
[15:30:54] <Smoke_> Trust me, it's greatness
[15:30:59] <Dominus> names?
[15:31:00] <TheCycoTWO> plugins will be bound by the terms of the GPL if they link against it fyi
[15:31:37] <Marzo> Yeah, the GPL can be annoying like that
[15:31:44] <Smoke_> See, why do you have to be so difficult.
[15:31:56] <Smoke_> Why not be like, sounds neat, we'll think about it.
[15:32:03] <Smoke_> Even if you're lying
[15:32:10] <Smoke_> Public relations people.
[15:32:21] <Dominus> because we are old enough to call bullshit out when we see it
[15:32:29] <Smoke_> But you're wrong
[15:32:38] <Dominus> names?
[15:32:44] <Smoke_> OBSE
[15:32:47] <Marzo> Again, what Dominus said
[15:32:48] <Smoke_> GTA IV Script Hook
[15:32:56] <Dominus> you wrote you haven't done that
[15:32:57] <Smoke_> GTA IV Script Hook.Net
[15:33:03] <Smoke_> I didn't write it
[15:33:10] <Smoke_> But IT DOES USE THAT TECHNIQUE
[15:33:21] <Smoke_> It show syou
[15:33:28] <Smoke_> successful use of the idea
[15:33:32] <Dominus> so you can't name anything you've done it for but you claim you did?
[15:33:36] <Marzo> If it needs .net, we aren't interested
[15:33:42] <Smoke_> I told you
[15:33:45] <Smoke_> it works with C++
[15:33:54] <TheCycoTWO> there's lots of modable engines that are superior to Ultima 7 in every way and arn't GPL... why do you want Exult?
[15:34:06] <-- shazza has left IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[15:34:18] <Smoke_> It's up to you
[15:34:21] <Smoke_> Do what you want
[15:34:35] <Dominus> name of projects and which plugin system you implemented
[15:34:38] <Smoke_> But, the technique is real, works, and is greatly successful for those that use it.
[15:34:50] <Smoke_> Fable SDK
[15:35:05] <Smoke_> It's not finished, because they pissed me off being lazy bastards
[15:35:13] <Smoke_> But, it does work as suggested with .Net
[15:35:23] <TheCycoTWO> ?
[15:35:51] <Smoke_> They wanted to reverse the game engine
[15:36:01] <Smoke_> I started the work, like here we go
[15:36:07] <Smoke_> They were like, cool
[15:36:11] <Smoke_> Tell us when it's done
[15:36:13] <Smoke_> lol
[15:36:28] <TheCycoTWO> if they have to do work to support you then they have to be convinced, and it sounds like they won't be. If not then you can just go ahead and do it instead of trying to get approval.
[15:36:29] <Smoke_> lazy
[15:36:55] <Smoke_> I did go ahead and do it
[15:37:01] <Smoke_> I release it, and everything
[15:37:15] <TheCycoTWO> you just have to follow the terms of the licence, and understand that if you never get approval you may have to fork. iirc we've never seen your modable exult.
[15:37:16] <Smoke_> it's not finished because it takes forever to reverse such a large game, and no one would help
[15:37:36] <Smoke_> I was talking about Fable still
[15:37:40] <Smoke_> But, yeah
[15:37:57] <TheCycoTWO> well it's up to the exult team whether to help you or not, but nagging won't make them feel any better about it.
[15:38:06] <Smoke_> I'm helping you
[15:38:09] <Smoke_> I know how to do this
[15:38:12] <Smoke_> I know it works
[15:38:14] <Dominus> shit got to go
[15:38:18] <Smoke_> Bye
[15:38:44] <Marzo> I got to go to
[15:38:53] <Marzo> See ya
[15:38:54] <TheCycoTWO> then just do it if it's what you want to do, but understand that they won't necessarily agree that you're helping them.
[15:38:56] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Quit: Page closed)
[15:39:25] <Smoke_> I'm not forcing it on you, I'm simply trying to explain it, since it's obviously causing confusion.
[15:39:43] <TheCycoTWO> ah, it sounds like you want validation
[15:39:49] <Smoke_> Nope
[15:39:51] <Smoke_> Could care less
[15:40:00] <Smoke_> I'm a good programmer, with lot's of experience
[15:40:28] <Smoke_> Need nothing, thought I was helping, by making suggestions.
[15:40:28] <TheCycoTWO> I don't do any work for Exult, only corsix-th.
[15:41:12] <Smoke_> Still, I think it would be cool, expose the UCC to C++, then you can use all the C++ features to execute script stuff.
[15:42:00] <TheCycoTWO> yeah, nuvie, and corsix-th both use small C++ cores and then all the script stuff is done in lua, which I think is kinda like what you mean
[15:42:13] <Smoke_> Sorta yeah.
[15:42:20] <TheCycoTWO> Exult is a very old project though, and the people that work on it like hacking C++
[15:42:37] <Smoke_> They use runtime lua to consult with C++, Lua is a bride
[15:43:06] <Smoke_> Uh, they use Lua to execute C++ code in the .exe, basically is what I mean.
[15:43:23] <TheCycoTWO> Who?
[15:43:30] <Smoke_> People who use Lua
[15:43:39] <Smoke_> for a script language
[15:43:45] <TheCycoTWO> ah yes, I know
[15:43:55] <Smoke_> So, it's similar
[15:44:01] <Smoke_> But, not exactly
[15:44:12] <Smoke_> I'm talking about making C++ your scripting language
[15:44:30] <Smoke_> I can't explain here, I could hae on the forums, but, someone locked my topics...
[15:44:40] <Smoke_> have
[15:44:46] <TheCycoTWO> But as I said, the people that are working on Exult don't want big change everything ideas, especially from an outsider.
[15:44:56] <Smoke_> It's not that big though
[15:45:05] <Smoke_> It's easy once you understand it.
[15:45:14] <Smoke_> I thought that way too, until I finally figured it out.
[15:45:29] <Smoke_> It took me years to see the solution, and it was so easy, I laughed.
[15:45:34] <TheCycoTWO> Why not write a patch to do it then, and see what they say when they see it.
[15:45:46] <TheCycoTWO> Because right now it's all in your head
[15:45:48] <Smoke_> I tried, can't compile VC1-
[15:45:52] <Smoke_> VC10
[15:46:54] <TheCycoTWO> Ah, you were a little aggressive in that forum topic - it sounded like "this isn't working, I'm going to start from scratch and it will be so much better"
[15:47:18] <Smoke_> How is that aggressive, or untrue.
[15:47:31] <Smoke_> In the course of revising a project over many years, it gets messy.
[15:47:48] <Smoke_> I worked on project for five years, rewrote it, and it was much better for it.
[15:48:01] <Smoke_> Called it v2.0
[15:48:09] <Eviltar_> it wouldnt be that hard to make a new VC10 project
[15:48:19] <Smoke_> Kinda is
[15:48:29] <TheCycoTWO> well... these people do this stuff for fun. Also you haven't proven yourself to them at all - and it really sounds like overkill.
[15:48:45] <Smoke_> I don't understand how you're building the bg\si_H projects, etc,.
[15:49:07] <TheCycoTWO> Like, waiter, there's a pea in my soup, I'm going to start my own restraunt!
[15:49:07] <Smoke_> Those are failing due to expack.o not making
[15:49:30] <Smoke_> Not really.
[15:49:50] <Smoke_> More like I couldn't be assed to spend years learning the intricacies of makefiles, etc,.
[15:49:53] <Eviltar_> if you have teamviewer i can get it building in vc10 i think
[15:50:15] <TheCycoTWO> I'm sure people would have helped if you stayed on topic of trying to get it to compile in vc10
[15:50:27] <Smoke_> I doubt it, they were mad at me.
[15:51:16] <Smoke_> Though, I give you credit for being troopers, most would have banned me by now.
[15:51:16] <Smoke_> Btw, seriously, your web site is on the SVN.
[15:51:46] <Smoke_> Not wise.
[15:51:48] <Smoke_> The source code.
[15:52:44] <Smoke_> I saw that other day, I downloaded the whole thing, for all the branches, tags, etc,.
[15:53:05] <Eviltar_> lol i did that once by accident
[15:53:20] <Smoke_> yeah, my SVN client sucks.
[15:53:54] <Smoke_> I use RapidSVN, it's easy to use, but, not very friendly in terms of, I want this, it just grabs it all.
[15:53:57] <Smoke_> brb
[15:54:20] <Eviltar_> in win i use tortoise
[15:55:58] <Smoke_> yeah, i've tried it.
[15:56:08] <Smoke_> It can integrate into your browser too can't it.
[15:56:24] <Smoke_> RapidSVN was always the least complicated to install\use though.
[15:56:41] <Smoke_> So I just grabbed it last time I setup
[15:57:52] <Smoke_> Anyways, everything aside.
[15:58:14] <Smoke_> I do like Exult, and I'd love to see it continue, and get better, etc, I wouldn't mind contributing
[15:58:28] <Smoke_> but, I have many projects of my own
[15:58:33] <Smoke_> I'm reversing Morrowind
[15:58:45] <Smoke_> Not easy, large game, very complicated.
[15:59:01] <Smoke_> I have my C#\SlimDX game engine
[15:59:18] <Smoke_> I have various mods I've created, and still support to this day. (over 15 years of modding.)
[15:59:46] <Eviltar_> i made some oblivion mods
[15:59:50] <Smoke_> Me too
[15:59:51] <Eviltar_> but it got boring
[15:59:55] <Smoke_> Yup
[15:59:57] <Smoke_> OBSE helped
[16:00:06] <Smoke_> Too buggy though
[16:00:14] <Smoke_> The game and OBSE
[16:00:30] <Smoke_> its fine for basic stuff, but, once really pushed, you can see it falling apart.
[16:00:49] <Smoke_> You may have used my mods
[16:00:55] <Smoke_> Advanced Magecraft
[16:01:00] <Eviltar_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlQ0PDhxfWQ
[16:01:04] <Smoke_> Advanced Mark\Recall
[16:01:06] <Eviltar_> you may not have used my mods
[16:02:30] <Smoke_> Nice
[16:02:43] <Eviltar_> sheogorath was supposed to be a god ffs
[16:02:49] <Smoke_> I know
[16:02:57] <Smoke_> I did the same, made an awesome booster pack for him.
[16:03:08] <Smoke_> He was a god when I got done.
[16:03:10] <Smoke_> :P
[16:03:39] <Smoke_> You ever do any Kotor modding
[16:03:48] <Eviltar_> i never felt a need to mod ultima before ultima9
[16:03:57] <Smoke_> I just like modding.
[16:03:58] <Eviltar_> nope
[16:04:02] <Smoke_> I mod everything
[16:04:17] <Smoke_> Kotor has a cool script language, its' C++ based
[16:04:27] <Smoke_> Limited though, compared to what I wanted.
[16:04:42] <Smoke_> It was more like an impression of C+
[16:04:44] <Smoke_> C++
[16:05:02] <Eviltar_> i wish i could port the bethesda script extenders to the 360
[16:05:12] <Eviltar_> but there would be no way to release that
[16:05:19] <Smoke_> Yeah
[16:05:26] <Smoke_> Console modding sucks for those reasons
[16:05:36] <Smoke_> You generally have to make new images.
[16:05:37] <Eviltar_> nah its personal enjoyment
[16:05:47] <Smoke_> I mean for sharing your work
[16:05:50] <Eviltar_> you can share with some people who also like it
[16:06:11] <Smoke_> Yeah, but, it's not as easy, in most cases. (Or legal in others.)
[16:06:13] <Eviltar_> but distributing it to the public is shady
[16:06:21] <Smoke_> exactly
[16:06:45] <Smoke_> There are a lot of games I'd love to get a hold of on PS2
[16:06:57] <Eviltar_> back to ultima tho
[16:06:58] <Smoke_> Chrono Cross
[16:07:02] <Smoke_> Okay
[16:07:21] <Smoke_> I'm with ya, I'm rambly by nature, don't get me started.
[16:07:28] <Smoke_> rambly
[16:07:33] <Eviltar_> the mods that exist like bridging the SI and BG stories
[16:07:38] <Eviltar_> are pretty cool
[16:07:57] <Smoke_> Yeah, I haven't tried many yet, aside from basics.
[16:08:06] <Eviltar_> but with the cheats you can already kind of do whatever you want
[16:08:14] <Eviltar_> like a sandbox
[16:08:29] <Smoke_> Yeah, I've noticed it's pretty powerful
[16:08:33] <Eviltar_> <--
[16:08:40] <Smoke_> I see
[16:08:42] <Smoke_> Me too
[16:08:43] <Eviltar_> i like to ramage in ultima occasionally
[16:08:52] <Eviltar_> when i get bored
[16:08:58] <Eviltar_> be the eviltar
[16:08:58] <Smoke_> Yeah, I do that in games myself.
[16:09:03] <Smoke_> Like Morrowind
[16:09:18] <Smoke_> I sometimes play evil characters, just a d*ck to everyone for 100 hours of gameplay
[16:09:29] <Smoke_> Good fun
[16:09:33] <Eviltar_> man i got booted from a NWN server
[16:09:47] <Eviltar_> for role-playing a zombified paladin
[16:09:52] <Smoke_> Haha.
[16:10:03] <TheCycoTWO> heh
[16:10:03] <Eviltar_> hey i was playing along, role playing
[16:10:04] <Smoke_> Nothing wrong with that, lamers.
[16:10:22] <Smoke_> I have that issue too, I stick to single player.
[16:10:33] <TheCycoTWO> well, sometimes evil characters make it unpleasent for others
[16:10:38] <Smoke_> I got banned from Jedi Outcast for being awesome.
[16:10:45] <Smoke_> That sucked.
[16:10:54] <TheCycoTWO> s/sometimes/pretty much always
[16:10:59] <Eviltar_> haha
[16:11:08] <Smoke_> Seriously, I pwned 30 guys in saber combat
[16:11:17] <Smoke_> the admin thought I was cheating.
[16:11:33] <Eviltar_> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29229104/picdump/alignment_n.jpg
[16:12:46] <Smoke_> I'm more lawful evil, where I use reason, and maniuplation, but, sometimes chaotic.
[16:13:01] <Eviltar_> im more chaotic good
[16:13:06] <Smoke_> Haha
[16:13:14] <Smoke_> I like it.
[16:13:23] <Smoke_> I may have to try that style sometime.
[16:13:31] <TheCycoTWO> heh
[16:13:31] <Smoke_> I always go good\evil
[16:13:45] <Smoke_> I've never merged them thusly.
[16:14:33] <Smoke_> That has to be surprising to the other people. The good Avatar save the village, then snaps a random persons neck, like what?
[16:14:55] <Smoke_> I do that sometimes, just kill people, it's normal right/
[16:15:05] <Eviltar_> lol
[16:15:07] <Smoke_> That sounds like fun.
[16:15:19] <Eviltar_> play ultima6
[16:15:30] <Eviltar_> tell iolo spam spam spam humbug
[16:15:37] <Eviltar_> ask him for two cannons
[16:15:48] <Eviltar_> have phun
[16:15:56] <Smoke_> Hehe, okay, I'm intrigued.
[16:16:47] <Smoke_> Anyways, yeah, Kotor is good fun too.
[16:17:00] <Smoke_> Lot's of evil choices to be made
[16:17:14] <Smoke_> I like games liek that - Or Vampire Bllodlines
[16:17:21] <Eviltar_> that one was fun
[16:17:24] <Smoke_> Vampire Bloodlines
[16:17:26] <Smoke_> typos
[16:17:30] <Smoke_> sigh.
[16:17:44] <Eviltar_> did you ever play sanitarium ?
[16:17:54] <Eviltar_> its an oldy but a goody
[16:17:55] <Smoke_> Nope, what's that?
[16:17:59] <Smoke_> DOS old
[16:18:03] <Smoke_> Or just old
[16:18:05] <Eviltar_> yah
[16:18:05] <TheCycoTWO> isn't that a horror adventure game
[16:18:19] <Eviltar_> yep
[16:18:28] <Smoke_> Those are always fun
[16:18:40] <Smoke_> I have trouble with old games with bad graphics.
[16:18:44] <Smoke_> Give me headaches.
[16:18:53] <Smoke_> Something about the rendering
[16:18:59] <TheCycoTWO> never played it, but I know people complain about the key/light puzzle a lot
[16:19:19] <TheCycoTWO> key puzzle rather
[16:19:24] <Eviltar_> i enjoyed it
[16:19:37] <Eviltar_> i had to look some parts up in walkthroughs but owell
[16:20:05] <Smoke_> I sometimes get into games like that, that are NEED walkthrough hard.
[16:20:16] <Smoke_> It depends, puzzles annoy me though
[16:20:33] <Eviltar_> final fantasy 1-7
[16:20:53] <Smoke_> I like FF 4\5\6
[16:20:59] <Eviltar_> <3 squaresoft
[16:21:13] <Smoke_> 7 is good, but, the graphics kill it for me.
[16:21:27] <Smoke_> Would love a remake pure, with HD models.
[16:21:39] <Eviltar_> someone was doing one i thought
[16:21:51] <Smoke_> There used to be mods, but, I can't find them
[16:21:57] <Eviltar_> no a remake
[16:22:01] <Smoke_> Someone ripped the kingdom hearts models.
[16:22:02] <Eviltar_> complete
[16:22:05] <Smoke_> Cool
[16:22:11] <TheCycoTWO> yeah, square is doing a remake of ff7
[16:22:25] <Smoke_> They just released it
[16:22:30] <Smoke_> It's the old game
[16:22:30] <TheCycoTWO> ah, cool
[16:22:40] <Smoke_> Sucked, everyone cried
[16:22:45] <TheCycoTWO> I thought they were 'improving' it
[16:23:04] <Smoke_> It runs on newer hardware, renders slightly better, and few other minor things.
[16:23:12] <Smoke_> But, its the same old game.
[16:23:27] <Smoke_> They said they won't do an HD remake until they TOP it's success with a new FF.
[16:23:43] <Smoke_> Given FF13, etc, not happening anytime soon.
[16:24:20] <TheCycoTWO> Flyspray is doing a lot of hd remakes lately, its' fun
[16:24:30] <Smoke_> Did you ever see Chrono Trigger resurrection?
[16:24:35] <Smoke_> It was a fan based project
[16:24:46] <Smoke_> Awesome, Square killed it, and lost my love.
[16:25:17] <Eviltar_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=71FVUv6H374#t=48s
[16:25:18] <Smoke_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ANEBIB0oao
[16:25:34] <Eviltar_> there is a fan based ffvii remake
[16:25:37] <Eviltar_> that's hires
[16:26:26] <Smoke_> Looks good, aside from teh first person view, which is odd.
[16:26:55] <Smoke_> You check out ressurection?
[16:27:11] <Smoke_> That looks amazing, it's nearly perfect recreation.
[16:27:20] <Smoke_> F*ck Square for shutting that project down.
[16:27:26] <Eviltar_> yeah looks good
[16:27:29] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[16:27:31] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[16:27:37] <Smoke_> So sad.
[16:27:46] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[16:27:46] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[16:28:38] <Smoke_> So, is Ultima9 any good? I've heard horrible things, like that it will rape my soul, etc,.
[16:29:10] <Smoke_> I avoided it based on what i heard.
[16:29:23] <Smoke_> But, can it be modded, is there any redeemable quality?
[16:29:28] <Eviltar_> nope
[16:29:37] <Smoke_> Pure crap then
[16:29:39] <Eviltar_> its a bastard
[16:29:41] <Smoke_> That sucks.
[16:29:56] <Smoke_> Ultima is such a deep series, shame it went out like that.
[16:30:14] <Smoke_> The Elderscrolls sort of did the same
[16:30:32] <Smoke_> Daggerfal\Morrowind rock, but, Oblivion onward is going downhill
[16:30:32] <Eviltar_> after u8 i was hoping garriott would take the IP and leave origin
[16:30:44] <Smoke_> EA - We ruin everything.
[16:30:48] <Eviltar_> lol
[16:30:51] <TheCycoTWO> ea wouldn't give up the ip like that
[16:31:16] <Smoke_> I heard he wanted to make a new game, and they won't give em' the time of day. (Maybe on your forums.)
[16:31:26] <Eviltar_> youd think a slaveowner would at least let you buy your child at a good price
[16:31:28] <TheCycoTWO> and a lot of people don't like u8 either, and u2 is pretty bad.
[16:32:09] <TheCycoTWO> 4-7 though - quite a decent run
[16:32:15] <Smoke_> 8 looks good from a "fun" perspective.
[16:32:27] <Smoke_> Betraying, gaining power, stealing souls
[16:32:36] <Smoke_> Not the horrible platforming, etc,.
[16:32:38] <Eviltar_> 4-7 are awesome
[16:33:00] <Eviltar_> 3 even
[16:33:04] <Smoke_> Exploding Chest - BOOM!!!
[16:33:13] <Smoke_> Sums up eight, from what I've heard.
[16:33:31] <Eviltar_> exploding books too
[16:33:37] <Eviltar_> and mushrooms
[16:33:44] <Smoke_> I've only really played 7, I did play some older ones years ago, but, my memory is shady.
[16:33:53] <TheCycoTWO> heh, 3 was ok, but the lack of boats and that damn wirlpool were stupidly annoying
[16:34:18] <Eviltar_> i played 3 and 4 on NES
[16:34:28] <TheCycoTWO> ah
[16:34:29] <Smoke_> yeah, I think I might have too. (NES)
[16:34:45] <Smoke_> I know I played them many, many years ago.
[16:35:03] <TheCycoTWO> I think they were pretty different, I played 1-5 in dos, 4 on the c64 as well
[16:35:26] <Smoke_> Probably the NES ports got all kinds of hack jobs done to them.
[16:35:36] <TheCycoTWO> yeah
[16:35:58] <Smoke_> Still, got soem good themes that way, Metal Gear's main theme on the NES rocks.
[16:36:19] <Smoke_> Right after the game actually starts, while you're playing, that themem.
[16:36:31] <Smoke_> Not the title theme
[16:36:52] <Eviltar_> hideo kojima hates the nes metal gear
[16:37:02] <Eviltar_> like harrison ford hates han solo
[16:37:07] <Smoke_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVBAUUCuB4
[16:37:29] <Smoke_> Still tell me that theme isn't awesome
[16:37:35] <Smoke_> See link
[16:37:43] <Eviltar_> forever engrained in my memory
[16:37:54] <Eviltar_> along with a lot of other 8 bit music
[16:38:05] <Smoke_> Yup.
[16:38:15] <Smoke_> I still hum that crap to this day
[16:38:27] <Smoke_> IronSword2 has a good one
[16:38:35] <Eviltar_> i get stones stuck in my head
[16:38:47] <Smoke_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbIJM1xAjNY
[16:39:00] <Smoke_> I love that one.
[16:39:23] <Eviltar_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k26rXxiRhc8
[16:39:58] --> Marzo has joined #exult
[16:40:25] <Smoke_> nice
[16:40:30] <TheCycoTWO> hello Marzo
[16:40:46] <Eviltar_> the day im whistling stones and someone recognises it ill be suprised
[16:41:02] <Smoke_> I just found a new song to add to my pile of awesome
[16:41:11] <Smoke_> Seriously, good tune
[16:41:34] <TheCycoTWO> heh, after Ultima 4 on the C64, Hail Britania was in my head forever
[16:41:47] <Eviltar_> hahaha
[16:42:03] <Eviltar_> yeah that one too gets stuck
[16:42:10] <Smoke_> I get Kefka theme stuck in my head sometimes.
[16:42:34] <Eviltar_> its when you start making up lyrics that you have to worry
[16:42:43] <Smoke_> Been there
[16:43:10] <Smoke_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZxB4eO8X9s
[16:43:47] <Smoke_> Not the greatest version of it, but, that tune is catchy.
[16:44:23] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[16:44:30] <Smoke_> Divine spirit of language is good.
[16:44:38] <Smoke_> That's from Star Ocean 3
[16:45:11] <Smoke_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlV1hsOd_WA
[16:45:25] <Eviltar_> the kefka theme makes me hear the square evil vilian laugh sound in my head
[16:45:39] <Smoke_> I'm actually learning to play the solo for that last one.
[16:45:41] <Smoke_> Yeah
[16:45:50] <Smoke_> Kefka was great.
[16:46:37] <Smoke_> The lead on Divine Spirit of Language is bad ass, hard to play too, but, I love it.
[16:47:55] <Smoke_> Music is crazy anyways.
[16:48:07] <Smoke_> Think about it, it's sounds, and we made stuff this awesome with it.
[16:48:19] <Smoke_> Life is weird.
[16:48:52] <Smoke_> I wonder it was like when music was first invented.
[16:49:04] <Smoke_> The guy was like, just go wth me on this one.
[16:49:09] <Smoke_> You'll love it
[16:49:17] <Smoke_> Had like a cat bone guitar or some shit
[16:49:26] <Smoke_> Busted out some Hendrix
[16:49:32] <Smoke_> wtf
[16:49:34] <Eviltar_> you know, if we really exist, or if we're just a projection is actually still up for debate
[16:49:40] <Smoke_> Yup
[16:49:45] <Smoke_> I follow that stuff
[16:49:52] <Smoke_> Quantum physics is mind blowing
[16:50:28] <Smoke_> Entanglement is cool stuff
[16:50:47] <Eviltar_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZGINaRUEkU
[16:51:13] <Smoke_> Awesome
[16:51:27] <Smoke_> I like that show anyways, but, a music mix, count me in
[16:52:16] <Smoke_> Did they ever find the Higgs boson yet?
[16:52:26] <Eviltar_> i thought so
[16:52:31] <Smoke_> I know they were looking, but said the results would take awhile
[16:52:46] <Smoke_> I've been slacking I usually keep up to date on quantum news
[16:53:06] <Smoke_> My first thought was evil
[16:53:15] <Smoke_> If that controls gravity, and how atoms bind
[16:53:24] <Smoke_> That means, disruptor rifles are coming soon
[16:53:46] <Eviltar_> lol
[16:54:04] <Smoke_> That's the only bad part, science always leads to nifty new ways to kill each other
[16:54:07] <Eviltar_> idk, what would stop the shot from ripping through everything in its path
[16:54:18] <Smoke_> I don't know
[16:54:20] <Smoke_> Scary weapon
[16:54:34] <Smoke_> It could literally take teh planet apart at the atomic level
[16:54:42] <Eviltar_> im sure we will someday
[16:55:00] <Smoke_> Yeah, if it's not natural doom, it will be caused by our own stupidity
[16:55:14] <Eviltar_> or curiosity
[16:55:20] <Smoke_> Yup
[16:55:50] <Eviltar_> but if we really live in a universe of infinite possibilities
[16:56:04] <Eviltar_> we'll probably carry on just fine
[16:56:12] <Eviltar_> in some dimensions
[16:56:13] <Eviltar_> lol
[16:56:20] <Smoke_> you got em
[16:56:22] <Smoke_> lme
[16:56:23] <Smoke_> me
[16:56:35] <Smoke_> I was like maybe he's right
[16:56:39] <Smoke_> I'm just too negative
[16:56:48] <Smoke_> then boom, you hit me with it.
[16:56:50] <Eviltar_> its like schrodingers cat
[16:56:52] <Smoke_> well played
[16:57:09] <Eviltar_> we've likely aready both destroyed ourselves, and not
[16:57:23] <Smoke_> Yeah, that's one theory
[16:57:34] <Smoke_> I mean from the new theories
[16:57:45] <Smoke_> That life is a projection of events that already occured
[16:57:50] <Eviltar_> m theory gets me hot
[16:58:15] <Smoke_> Yeah
[16:58:31] <Smoke_> Dimnesional theories are mind blowing, so is string theory in general
[16:58:59] <Smoke_> The true ramifications of some of them are hard to imagine
[16:59:09] <Eviltar_> like
[16:59:12] <Smoke_> Strings are supposed to be like music notes
[16:59:20] <Eviltar_> if gravity isnt bound to our dimension
[16:59:28] <Eviltar_> where is it going when is not here?
[16:59:31] <Eviltar_> lol
[16:59:39] <Smoke_> Yeah
[16:59:44] <Smoke_> That kind of stuff
[16:59:59] <Smoke_> Like things behaving differently once observed too.
[17:00:20] <Smoke_> There are just so many explanations, all of them crazy.
[17:00:59] <Smoke_> I love hearing the new theories though.
[17:01:04] <Eviltar_> more people should be taught that stuff instead of basic education
[17:01:18] <Smoke_> yeah, they'd be better off
[17:01:24] <Eviltar_> so we get some children growing up with that
[17:01:24] <Smoke_> There are bigger issues at hand.
[17:01:31] <TheCycoTWO> ... in what way would we be better off?
[17:01:43] <Eviltar_> imagine if we could harness zero point energy
[17:02:02] <Eviltar_> never have to burn fuel again
[17:02:09] <Eviltar_> no coal, no oil
[17:02:24] <TheCycoTWO> sure some people should concentrate on it (though they need an advanced education to start with to understand it), but we don't all need to know it.
[17:02:32] <Eviltar_> right
[17:02:41] <Eviltar_> they should take kids that test well for that shit
[17:02:51] <TheCycoTWO> heh
[17:02:54] <Smoke_> Yeah, but, think about all the wasted time\energy, people need to be more aware of their world
[17:02:58] <Eviltar_> and teach them that instead of spelling/geography
[17:03:09] <Smoke_> Most ppl are oblivious, or just ignore it.
[17:03:26] <Smoke_> I'm very interested in this world I exist in.
[17:03:33] <Eviltar_> its too big for most people to care
[17:03:48] <Smoke_> It drives me nuts that who's going to be the next top model is more important to some people
[17:03:49] <Eviltar_> they are stuck in survival mode
[17:03:52] <TheCycoTWO> sounds like the soviet union - but sometimes people's aptitudes (and interests) change... I'm told... I don't know I programmed since I was 5ish and it's still the thing I'm best at.
[17:04:21] <Eviltar_> yeah i started basic when i was abotu 10
[17:04:34] <Smoke_> qbasic
[17:04:38] <Smoke_> ages ago
[17:04:39] <Eviltar_> apple basic
[17:04:42] <Smoke_> hah
[17:04:45] <Smoke_> good stuff
[17:04:53] <TheCycoTWO> yeah, I started on commodore basic
[17:04:54] <Eviltar_> but they pulled a few of us out of our regular classes and taught us that
[17:05:02] <Eviltar_> called it the horizons program
[17:05:08] <Smoke_> Odd
[17:05:12] <TheCycoTWO> out of compute! magazine
[17:05:18] <Smoke_> You were selected to be a super soldier or something
[17:05:26] <Eviltar_> haha not really
[17:05:26] <TheCycoTWO> and a bunch of other old programming books my parents had around
[17:05:31] <Eviltar_> yeah
[17:05:40] <Eviltar_> i used to get pc magazine for the code snippets
[17:05:40] <Smoke_> I didn't haev a class in school until highschool
[17:05:58] <Smoke_> By then, i was better than my teacher.
[17:06:05] <Smoke_> :D
[17:06:21] <Eviltar_> in high school i fucked off for years and got rusty at everything
[17:06:53] <Smoke_> Everyone did, I think.
[17:07:02] <Smoke_> I strayed for years myself
[17:07:17] <Smoke_> Just seeing what life was about, trying various things
[17:08:13] <Smoke_> Turns out, I'm quite fond of weed. :P
[17:08:23] <Smoke_> <-- Is Smoke
[17:08:31] <Smoke_> :D
[17:08:40] <Eviltar_> mmhmm
[17:08:59] <Smoke_> It helps me program, sometimes, when I can't solve it sober, I can usually solve it high, and vice versa
[17:09:06] <Eviltar_> im fond of coffee and breakfast right about now
[17:09:21] <Smoke_> Drunken programming, never works out though...
[17:09:30] <Smoke_> Yup
[17:09:32] <Smoke_> Me 2
[17:09:36] <TheCycoTWO> reminds me of TerminX from eduke32
[17:09:46] <TheCycoTWO> he likes to code high
[17:10:05] <Smoke_> It helps, some people, and sometimes.
[17:10:09] <Eviltar_> it does encourage abstract thought
[17:10:15] <Smoke_> Though, I've completely wrecked source code that way.
[17:10:20] <Smoke_> I make backups
[17:10:33] <TheCycoTWO> it makes for an awful mess is what it does... just motivation to keep going I think.
[17:10:55] <Smoke_> I solved the .net plugin API problem high.
[17:11:03] <Smoke_> It just came to me
[17:11:27] <Eviltar_> http://youtu.be/YLO7tCdBVrA
[17:11:39] <Smoke_> Even if you don't care about that kind of thing, think about the implementation of it.
[17:11:43] <Smoke_> See if you can solve it.
[17:11:51] <TheCycoTWO> to be fair I never tried it. Doesn't feel like something I'd like.
[17:12:11] <Smoke_> Bob Ross, let's paint a happy little tree.
[17:12:15] <Smoke_> I loved him
[17:12:21] <Smoke_> used to watch when I was little.
[17:12:26] <Eviltar_> you know he worked high
[17:12:33] <Smoke_> Definitely
[17:12:39] <Smoke_> No doubt about it.
[17:13:36] <Smoke_> I'm thinking about food now, you shouldn't have mentioned breakfast..
[17:14:02] <Smoke_> I'm starving, haven't a thing yet.
[17:14:06] <Smoke_> ate a
[17:15:39] <Smoke_> Man, I may have to go make some lunch
[17:15:48] <Smoke_> I'm enjoying the chat though
[17:16:08] <Smoke_> I like these sorts of discussions.
[17:16:29] <Smoke_> Gives me back some of my faith in humanity.
[17:16:52] <Smoke_> People, who actually think about stuff, amazing.
[17:17:42] <Smoke_> Can I be real with you?
[17:17:57] <TheCycoTWO> shoot
[17:18:08] <Smoke_> I distrust the world, I look at it like i'm prison, and it's other inmates out to steal my food, or rape me.
[17:18:14] <Smoke_> in prison
[17:18:27] <Smoke_> Seriously, I wonder, is this real, is it hell
[17:19:07] <Smoke_> I don't trust it, are you demons, just toying with me, or other lost souls, stuck in this god forsaken existence.
[17:19:38] <Smoke_> I think about this stuff, and it bothers when other people just float through life acting all happy, and content.
[17:19:50] <Smoke_> Just wanna smack them.
[17:20:40] <Smoke_> I don't know, that's normal is it/
[17:20:44] <Smoke_> not
[17:20:53] <Eviltar_> its normal for some people
[17:21:06] <TheCycoTWO> ah, a lot of people think like that yeah
[17:21:13] <Smoke_> I wish I could be like them
[17:21:25] <Eviltar_> take lithium
[17:21:26] <Smoke_> Just drink myself stupid, and float happily through life though
[17:21:32] <Smoke_> Been there
[17:21:42] <TheCycoTWO> heh, there's probably better answers
[17:21:47] <TheCycoTWO> ever try philosophy?
[17:21:53] <Smoke_> Yup
[17:21:54] <Eviltar_> ah there ya go
[17:22:11] <Smoke_> I think about all these possible things
[17:22:18] <Eviltar_> taoism is refreshing to a troubled mind
[17:22:26] <Smoke_> Accident, god, alien intervention, buddhism, etc,.
[17:22:39] <Smoke_> I've considered most possibilities.
[17:23:06] <Smoke_> Still, I've yet to find one that makes me NOT want to a bullet in my head and be done with it.
[17:23:13] <Eviltar_> i think aliens stopped on earth to refil on water, spit in a puddle, and we evolved
[17:23:14] <Smoke_> put a
[17:23:37] <Smoke_> It's possible
[17:24:10] <TheCycoTWO> there's also neiche and stuff, a lot of the postmodernists and existentialists focus on that
[17:24:19] <TheCycoTWO> bbs
[17:24:20] <Smoke_> But, yeah, I just in general don't trust the world around me, and don't know what to think, and I'm amazed people can sleep at night.
[17:24:33] <Smoke_> I barely do.
[17:24:38] <Eviltar_> there should be a name for that
[17:24:48] <Eviltar_> wanting to wake up the sheep around you
[17:24:48] <Smoke_> I stay up thinking, until I fall asleep.
[17:24:58] <Eviltar_> but being afraid to alarm them
[17:25:07] <Smoke_> haha, yeah.
[17:25:15] <Smoke_> They'd just lock us up
[17:25:19] <Eviltar_> lol
[17:25:19] <Smoke_> for being crazy
[17:25:31] <Smoke_> They're crazy, how can you ignore it.
[17:25:33] <Eviltar_> you know what i do to vent that
[17:25:39] <Eviltar_> protest
[17:25:47] <Eviltar_> sign petitions
[17:25:52] <Smoke_> Yeah, I've tried a bit of that
[17:25:57] <Eviltar_> and be politicly active
[17:25:57] <Smoke_> I write letters to the editor, etc,.
[17:26:23] <Eviltar_> its hard not to burst into fits of "WHY DONT YOU FUCKERS WAKE UP AND LOOK WHATS GOING ON!!!" sometimes
[17:26:35] <Smoke_> Lol, I know right.
[17:26:35] <Eviltar_> less people listen when you do
[17:27:05] <Smoke_> Yeah, you ahve to be calm, and rational, when it's really hard to be.
[17:27:21] <Eviltar_> if you want people to be calm and rational yes
[17:27:47] <Smoke_> It's just so messed up you want to rant like a mad man, but if you do, no one hear you.
[17:27:56] <Smoke_> It sucks.
[17:28:05] <Smoke_> I feel your pain
[17:28:38] <Smoke_> I try to make a LOT of internet posting with stuff like this.
[17:28:50] <Smoke_> I seen someone crying about people killing spiders.
[17:28:58] <Smoke_> They made an article about it.
[17:29:05] <Smoke_> I was like, dude, we have bigger problems.
[17:29:25] <Smoke_> People are starving to death, etc, and you're worried about fucking spiders, die.
[17:29:46] <Smoke_> Okay, I was nicer, but, that's how I felt.
[17:30:07] <Eviltar_> like this http://towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/1352/1
[17:30:25] <Eviltar_> you would think more people would have cared to pass that info on, and people would know
[17:30:41] <Eviltar_> but advertising $$ and lawyers are >
[17:30:57] <Smoke_> Yup, that kind of stuff is exactly what I mean.
[17:31:23] <Eviltar_> ok you want to get kooky
[17:31:28] <Eviltar_> i blame fluoride
[17:31:38] <Smoke_> Yeah, it's possible.
[17:31:41] <Eviltar_> sodium fluoride they use to treat water
[17:31:51] <Eviltar_> lowers IQ and makes people docile
[17:31:56] <Smoke_> It's supposed to sheepify people
[17:32:06] <Eviltar_> well
[17:32:13] <Smoke_> It seems it's working
[17:32:18] <Eviltar_> you can take it that deep don the rabbit hole if you want
[17:32:33] <Eviltar_> but its toxic waste that companie had to pay to dump
[17:32:54] <Eviltar_> in the 50's they said it was just like fluoride(any chemist would laugh)
[17:33:07] <Eviltar_> and sold it to cities as a water treatment
[17:33:16] <Eviltar_> no one bothered to really check the science
[17:33:18] <Smoke_> That's messed up.
[17:33:22] <Eviltar_> so its still being used
[17:33:33] <Smoke_> I hadn't heard that part of the story.
[17:33:43] <Smoke_> But I did knew about its' effects.
[17:33:50] <Smoke_> know
[17:33:52] <Smoke_> types
[17:33:54] <Smoke_> typos
[17:33:56] <Eviltar_> its untrue that it was used in nazi camps
[17:33:57] <Smoke_> grr
[17:34:10] <Eviltar_> they wouldnt have spent the money to treat their water
[17:34:21] <Smoke_> Likely not.
[17:34:21] <Eviltar_> more likely was given to the people/soldiers tho
[17:34:32] <Smoke_> to make them follow, etc,.
[17:34:36] <Smoke_> Makes sense
[17:34:57] <Eviltar_> not even maliciously
[17:35:08] <Eviltar_> just out of ignorantly believing it was good for people
[17:35:18] <Eviltar_> and not proving the science
[17:35:25] <Smoke_> Yeah
[17:35:42] <Smoke_> The FDA sucks, how many new drugs come per year, then get pulled a year later for killing people, etc,.
[17:35:49] <Smoke_> out per year
[17:36:02] <Smoke_> We're just guinea pigs.
[17:36:33] <Smoke_> The side effects always mke me laugh
[17:36:46] <Smoke_> May cause: Loss of vision, hearing, death, coma, etc,.
[17:36:49] <Eviltar_> have you heard of rick simpsons cancer cure?
[17:36:59] <Smoke_> Nope
[17:37:05] <Eviltar_> thank the fda
[17:37:07] <Eviltar_> lol
[17:37:12] <Smoke_> haha
[17:37:17] <Smoke_> I belive it.
[17:37:27] <Smoke_> fucking typos galore today.
[17:37:33] <Smoke_> stupid fingers.
[17:37:55] <Eviltar_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZMSF95lC4&feature=fvwrel
[17:38:14] <Smoke_> Oh yea
[17:38:22] <Smoke_> Was that from the 70;s
[17:38:41] <Smoke_> I remember they figured that out back in the 70's and Nixon helped bury it.
[17:39:27] <Smoke_> I think weed is kind of like the Matrix pills
[17:39:34] <Smoke_> Free your mind, and all that.
[17:39:44] <Smoke_> I went deeper into the rabbit hole myself.
[17:40:11] <Smoke_> Could be why they don't like it so much despite the evidence to the contrary.
[17:40:41] <Smoke_> I'd say it's largely to blame for my free thinking.
[17:41:23] <Smoke_> That's another topic I'm passionate about, legalizing weed.
[17:41:35] <Eviltar_> ive heard people speculate DMT is the matrix pill
[17:41:47] <Smoke_> Maybe, rave drugs are crazy.
[17:41:54] <Eviltar_> or ayahuasca/iboga
[17:41:58] <Eviltar_> its not a rave drug
[17:42:06] <Smoke_> Ravers use it, though
[17:42:07] <Eviltar_> crazy far out halucinogen
[17:42:14] <Smoke_> Ones I know
[17:42:26] <Eviltar_> you might be thinking about mdma
[17:42:36] <Smoke_> Never tried it, acid ruined me for tripping
[17:42:45] <Smoke_> I saw crazy stuff you can't unsee
[17:43:00] <Smoke_> It was a summer day, hot, bright, etc,.
[17:43:08] <Smoke_> My trip kicked in
[17:43:22] <Smoke_> It went dark, windy the sky turned pitch black
[17:43:40] <Smoke_> The clouds formed into a giant skull that came out of the sky chasing after me.
[17:43:51] <Smoke_> I hid in the bathroom
[17:44:45] <Smoke_> I can't even explain it all, so many things came to me, and made sense, then were lost to chaos, tripping is crazy.
[17:44:54] <Eviltar_> i only had that happen on like heroic doses of lsd
[17:45:01] <Smoke_> Yup
[17:45:05] <Smoke_> My dude was a dealer
[17:45:17] <Smoke_> I helped him out, so he dumped a whole eye dropper on my tongue
[17:45:33] <Smoke_> I was GONE
[17:45:41] <Eviltar_> some asshole fed me ten hits of acid before i had ever even smoked weed or been drunk
[17:45:50] <Smoke_> Not nice
[17:46:07] <Eviltar_> nah i dont really remember after a few hours what it was like
[17:46:23] <Smoke_> Shoot, I remember 16 hours of terror that day.
[17:46:26] <Eviltar_> i tried playing ultima7
[17:46:32] <Eviltar_> couldnt control the mouse
[17:46:35] <Smoke_> I tried playing Zelda
[17:46:43] <Smoke_> Got stuck in a single room for hours
[17:46:45] <Eviltar_> tried playing sonic the hedgehog, even one button was too much
[17:46:57] <Smoke_> I kept pushing blocks trying to find the secret switch to open the path
[17:46:58] <Eviltar_> so i went to my room and went to sleep
[17:47:24] <Smoke_> The funnny part, the door was already open
[17:47:49] <Smoke_> I was on a GBA
[17:47:52] <Smoke_> So I saved
[17:48:03] <Smoke_> The next day I looked and it was aalready open
[17:48:12] <Smoke_> bs
[17:48:20] <Smoke_> brb
[17:49:35] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Read error: Connection timed out)
[17:50:06] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[17:50:06] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[17:50:10] <Smoke_> aight
[17:50:21] <Smoke_> Yeah, playing guitar is messed up too.
[17:50:33] <Smoke_> It was like my hands were creatures.
[17:51:06] <Smoke_> Like they weren't even part of me, or something.
[17:51:16] <Smoke_> ever done Special K
[17:51:21] <Eviltar_> once
[17:51:32] <Eviltar_> when my buddies mom died a stripper gave him some
[17:51:59] <Smoke_> I like it, some people have out of body experiences, but, I had this really pleasant drunk like high.
[17:52:27] <Smoke_> The ground felt marshmallows.
[17:52:29] <Smoke_> lik
[17:52:31] <Smoke_> like
[17:52:31] <Eviltar_> i dont do anything but smoke weed and drink coffee anymore
[17:52:40] <Eviltar_> outgrew all that
[17:52:42] <Smoke_> Yeah, me too, mainly
[17:52:56] <Smoke_> I will occasionally do a pill (Xanax)
[17:53:10] <Smoke_> But, no more crazy stuff.
[17:53:16] <Eviltar_> ha i just get a prescription for those if i need them
[17:53:28] <Smoke_> Yeah, I can't do that.
[17:53:33] <Eviltar_> i have trazedone, but i dont take it
[17:53:35] <Smoke_> I like them too much to have around.
[17:53:38] <Eviltar_> for my insomnia
[17:53:46] <Smoke_> I need something
[17:54:04] <Smoke_> But, like I said, I can't be around it, or I'll use them up in a day or two. :P
[17:54:14] <Eviltar_> you shoudl talk to someone about that
[17:54:15] <Smoke_> Doc I need more. Already? Yes...
[17:54:26] <Smoke_> I am, you.
[17:54:30] <Smoke_> :D
[17:54:31] <Eviltar_> like family
[17:54:34] <Eviltar_> or doctor
[17:54:41] <Smoke_> Family is half the problem
[17:54:47] <Smoke_> The world is the rest.
[17:54:57] <Eviltar_> ah talk to a doctor about it then
[17:55:10] <Smoke_> Tried, they think I just want drugs or something.
[17:55:17] <Smoke_> I'm too smart, is the problem.
[17:55:23] <Smoke_> I don't come off as crazy.
[17:56:05] <Eviltar_> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29229104/picdump/awesome_.jpg
[17:56:31] <Smoke_> haha.
[17:56:35] <Smoke_> That might do it.
[17:56:41] <Smoke_> No, but seriously.
[17:56:59] <Smoke_> I've told them I think about killing people, myself, etc, and they're like, buck up, it'll be alright son.
[17:57:07] <Eviltar_> i had to see my doctor about 3 times before she listened to me
[17:57:19] <Eviltar_> trying her crap idea's first
[17:57:31] <Smoke_> I was forced to go by courts, and they still didn't believe me. (I was threatening cops, and shit.)
[17:57:37] <Smoke_> count to 10
[17:57:39] <Smoke_> I know
[17:57:42] <Smoke_> BS
[17:57:46] <Smoke_> It doesn't work.
[17:57:53] <Eviltar_> nah she put me on ssri's
[17:58:14] <Smoke_> They just told me to breath, and slowly count to ten.
[17:58:18] <Eviltar_> i told her i was diagnosed bipolar schitzophrenic already
[17:58:27] <Smoke_> Hmm.
[17:58:59] <Smoke_> I might try taht.
[17:59:13] <Smoke_> That or, that biting the bitches tit.
[17:59:26] <Eviltar_> nah that will get you locked up
[17:59:34] <Smoke_> I'll get my pills.
[17:59:37] <Smoke_> :D
[18:00:02] <Eviltar_> i had to take the zoloft n shit she gave me and keep telling her my symptoms weren't improving
[18:00:22] <TheCycoTWO> wow you guys talked a lot
[18:00:27] <Eviltar_> finally she put me on an anti-psycotic
[18:00:41] <Smoke_> Hmm, I may have to try again.
[18:00:48] <Smoke_> and yes, we talked bunches. Hello there.
[18:01:28] <Smoke_> Weed helps me out though, I'm generaly better than I used to be, at least in terms of getting really crazy.
[18:01:41] <Smoke_> I was real bad when I was little.
[18:01:48] <Eviltar_> its just expensive tho
[18:01:53] <Smoke_> If you made me mad, god help you.
[18:02:27] <Smoke_> I threw guy out of a 2nd story window once, then jumped off the roof myself to go after him.
[18:03:30] <Smoke_> I'm much better these days.
[18:03:45] <-- D3c1p43r_ has left #exult ("Leaving...")
[18:04:22] <Smoke_> I don't know
[18:04:44] <Smoke_> So, do you go by Eviltar on teh forums as well.
[18:05:00] <Eviltar_> idk what i used on the forum
[18:05:12] <Eviltar_> or if i ever made an account
[18:05:35] <Smoke_> Hmm, well, I'll know U here at least.
[18:05:36] <TheCycoTWO> caught up
[18:05:55] <Smoke_> I'm thinking about getting some food, etc,.
[18:06:14] <TheCycoTWO> sounds like a plan
[18:06:16] <Eviltar_> hell i put brats on the grill and already ate while we were talking
[18:06:38] <TheCycoTWO> there was no flouride where I grew up, and people weren't any smarter
[18:06:57] <Smoke_> yeah, I'm making something more involved myself. Not sure what, but, I'm feeling creative.
[18:07:10] <Eviltar_> were they erie and zombie like though?
[18:07:36] <Smoke_> lol
[18:07:41] <TheCycoTWO> no, but I blame ritlin and all the stuff they shove on adhd kids for that.
[18:07:50] <Eviltar_> i really think its the fluoride
[18:07:56] <Eviltar_> its super bad for kids
[18:07:58] <Smoke_> That stuff sucks, made me see trees walking.
[18:08:02] <Smoke_> Ritalin
[18:08:07] <Eviltar_> wow
[18:08:17] <Smoke_> Yeah, I was desperate to get high
[18:08:25] <TheCycoTWO> afaik fluoride isn't too bad, just makes your bones weak
[18:08:26] <Smoke_> Took most of a bottle, so, yeah.
[18:08:51] <Eviltar_> its horrible when a kids organs are developing tho
[18:08:55] <Smoke_> Likely less to do with the pills, but, the sheer volume, I'm sure you'd trip on aspirin at that point.
[18:08:59] <Eviltar_> especially the brain
[18:09:22] <Eviltar_> they say parents making formula for babies shoudl use distilled water, but who does
[18:09:39] <Smoke_> Anyways, I hate to leave, I'm enjoing the chat, but, I've got to eat, and have things to take care of, etc,.
[18:09:39] <Eviltar_> it calcifies the pineal gland
[18:09:44] <Eviltar_> i ggo too
[18:10:31] <Smoke_> Alright, we'll nice meeting you, and I'll see ya around. :D
[18:10:38] <Smoke_> Later.
[18:10:49] <Smoke_> well
[18:10:50] <Smoke_> typos
[18:10:52] <Smoke_> grrr
[18:11:09] <-- Smoke_ has left IRC (Quit: Page closed)
[18:45:50] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:46:01] --> Dominus has joined #exult
[18:46:02] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[19:02:56] --> Marzo has joined #exult
[20:00:56] --> Marzo1 has joined #exult
[20:00:57] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:09:19] --> Marzo has joined #exult
[20:11:43] <-- Marzo1 has left IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[20:21:35] <Marzo> Dominus: changes are away
[20:33:28] --> Malignant_Manor has joined #exult
[20:34:08] <Malignant_Manor> Besides testing if new changes broke stuff, what more do we want done before release?
[20:37:26] <wjp> Marzo: could you please try to split up commits in functional parts?
[20:37:41] <Marzo> Sure
[20:38:02] <wjp> large commits make hunting down regressions in commits very tricky :/
[20:38:05] <Marzo> Should I revert this one and send it by parts?
[20:41:14] <wjp> nah
[20:41:59] <Malignant_Manor> How small is the speed boost? I think 2xbr used 100% cpu before. (I have about 18 minutes left until compiling finishes)
[20:42:28] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[21:06:29] <Malignant_Manor> Exult crashes on loading the game.
[21:07:34] <Malignant_Manor> http://pastebin.com/qaiSgUek (I don't have a debug build)
[21:32:32] --> shazza has joined #exult
[21:33:06] <-- TheCycoTWO has left IRC (Quit: And then there were n-1)
[21:36:36] <-- shazza has left IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[21:41:56] <Dominus> Malignant_Manor: crashes for me too
[21:43:50] <Dominus> btw, thanks sh4rm4 for mentioning "make -j9" - didn't know that existed. exult makes really fast now :)
[21:44:51] <Malignant_Manor> I can only do 3 hobs at a time. It takes around 19 or 20 minutes.
[21:45:38] <Dominus> that's awfully long. For debug builts I leave out the hq scalers and that speeds it up quite a lot. about a minute, tops
[21:46:35] <Dominus> my backtrace http://pastebin.com/BKn46Vmd
[21:46:48] <Malignant_Manor> I have an old 2.4 ghz P4. This is building with 02. Debug doesn't build fast either.
[21:47:15] <Dominus> seems something is wrong with schedule->im_dormant();
[21:47:28] <Dominus> (this was with a new game of FoV)
[21:48:25] <sh4rm4> nice :)
[21:49:59] <wjp> probably just needs an "if (schedule)" before that im_dormant() call
[21:50:23] <wjp> it's crashing because newsched is null
[21:53:16] <Dominus> nah, still crashes
[22:00:01] <wjp> different backtrace then?
[22:01:48] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[22:02:04] <Dominus1> wjp: http://pastebin.com/C3GCm3Am
[22:02:14] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[22:02:14] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[22:02:14] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[22:04:00] <-- Rottingbeef has left IRC ()
[22:11:39] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[22:11:53] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[22:11:53] --- Dominus is now known as Guest44912
[22:11:53] <-- Guest44912 has left IRC (Killed (hitchcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[22:11:53] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[22:16:15] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[22:16:29] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[22:16:29] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Killed (pratchett.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[22:16:29] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[22:16:37] --> Malignant_Manor_ has joined #exult
[22:16:54] <-- Malignant_Manor has left IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[22:17:02] --- Malignant_Manor_ is now known as Malignant_Manor
[22:18:03] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[22:18:17] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[22:18:17] --- Dominus is now known as Guest93214
[22:18:17] <-- Guest93214 has left IRC (Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[22:18:17] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[22:18:23] --> Marzo has joined #exult
[22:18:23] <Dominus> yeah, now my internet connection is acting up
[22:18:27] <Dominus> so great
[22:18:53] <Marzo> Read the log; will check the crash when I am back home
[22:19:09] <Dominus> thanks
[22:19:55] <Marzo> It is the Murphy crash: the last change I made is likely the one responsible, because I didn't run the game after doing it
[22:20:04] <Dominus> he he
[22:20:39] <Marzo> And the only reason was that a similar branch nearby did the same thing
[22:20:56] <Marzo> Anyway, going home now
[22:21:37] <Marzo> (and man, typing in a tablet is annoying even with predictive typing)
[22:21:50] <Dominus> :)
[22:21:53] <Marzo> Be back later
[22:22:00] <Dominus> one gets used to it :)
[22:22:56] <Marzo> Given how much better the WIFI is compared to my laptop's, it is worth it
[22:23:07] <Marzo> Bye
[22:23:09] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Client Quit)
[22:26:23] <Dominus> Malignant_Manor: for a release I think there are some bugs I'd like to see gone first. The slime animation is annoying and I hope to be able to convince someone to take a deeper look at it. Also I think the not freeing of BG files when leaving the Exult Setup should be fixed but I guess Colourless is struck down by a severe case of Real Life so that will have to wait :)
[22:27:25] <Dominus> I'd *LIKE* to enable autonotes but given the state of the autonotes themselves it might be something that doesn't need to be in a release
[22:29:12] <Malignant_Manor> Here's a noticeable bug where spawned kids in the Isle of the Avatar don't spawn as actors. https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3146999&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[22:29:54] <Dominus> have you checked the original?
[22:30:25] <Dominus> but I suggest you mark the bugs that *you* think need to be looked at before a release with a deep red :)
[22:30:36] <Malignant_Manor> I'm pretty sure I did and it worked.
[22:30:44] <Dominus> k then :(
[22:35:42] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[22:36:12] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[22:36:27] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[22:36:27] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[22:39:50] --> Kirben has joined #exult
[22:39:50] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Kirben
[22:56:47] --> Dominus1 has joined #exult
[22:59:36] <-- Dominus has left IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[23:02:52] --> Marzo has joined #exult
[23:07:06] <Marzo> Dominus1: I was right, it was *the* last change I made; anyway, I committed the change
[23:08:29] <Dominus1> that's starnge I tried with that fix and it still failed me. I didn't make a full recompile though
[23:09:50] <Dominus1> still crashes for me
[23:11:02] <Malignant_Manor> It's working for me with journey onward on an existing save.
[23:11:33] <Dominus1> hmm, I tried with starting a new game before and maybe that got nuked
[23:11:35] <Malignant_Manor> A new game works too.
[23:11:44] <Dominus1> because a new game works for me too now
[23:12:40] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus1
[23:12:40] --- Dominus1 is now known as Dominus
[23:18:06] <Dominus> thanks marzo, got to try some stuff now :)
[23:18:41] <Malignant_Manor> The npc talking through walls doesn't happen anymore due to the extra height check.
[23:19:25] <Malignant_Manor> Is the br scaling about as optimized as it can be? It still maxes out the cpu to where the mouse is sluggish even at 2x. 4xbr is still mostly playable though.
[23:20:12] <Malignant_Manor> (crappy 2.4 ghz P4 with onboard shared video)
[23:22:33] <Dominus> marzo, sitting in air still happening for me with that SI savegame :(
[23:23:12] <Dominus> savegame from https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2719334&group_id=2335&atid=102335
[23:23:37] <Malignant_Manor> If it saved with them in the air, it might not fix that case.
[23:24:00] <Dominus> sleep one hour, wait a bit for more guests to arrive (all sitting correctly)
[23:24:23] <Dominus> then teleport to monk island, sleep in one of the beds there for one hour and then teleport back to monitor
[23:24:54] <Dominus> *unless* this is only fixed for new games
[23:25:26] <Dominus> they are back at their schedule location, I think
[23:30:56] <Dominus> marzo another test case: new BG game, be at 5:30pm in BlueBoar Britain. Shamino will sit at the piano. go to a house next door, sleep an hour, go back
[23:31:30] <Dominus> Shamino will sit in the air as he sat at the piano at his eat-at-inn schedule point
[23:32:01] <Dominus> cynthia as well
[23:32:03] <Dominus> :(
[23:36:05] <Dominus> got to sleep now :(
[23:51:42] <Marzo> (09:19:25 PM) Malignant_Manor: Is the br scaling about as optimized as it can be? It still maxes out the cpu to where the mouse is sluggish even at 2x. 4xbr is still mostly playable though.
[23:51:59] <Marzo> No, it is not; I will implement a decompression buffer for it when I have the time
[23:52:08] <Marzo> This should drastically cut CPU usage
[23:55:00] <Marzo> Dominus: And yes, saves with NPCs sitting on air will still feature them sitting on air
[23:55:08] <Malignant_Manor> Thanks, I was just wondering. I had no idea how complex it is.
[23:55:39] <Marzo> It isn't much complicated
[23:56:40] <Marzo> The main problem is that each pixel is used in 21 cases with the filter
[23:57:18] <Marzo> Since there is color format conversion and alpha blending going on, this can grind things to a halt
[23:57:39] <Marzo> These two account for around 50% of the time that xBR scaler is taking
[23:57:44] <Marzo> (possibly more)
[23:58:17] <Marzo> (I think it was near 70% or so, if my memory does not fail me)