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[08:48:56] <sbx> hi
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[11:00:53] * Darke bows, "Hi!"
[11:13:12] * sbx jumpgreets Darke.
[11:14:24] <Kirben> ?seen colourless
[11:14:24] <exultbot> colourless left IRC around Fri Feb 8 19:17:30 2002 (GMT) ("[5:50]")
[11:14:34] * Darke throws sbx a fish.
[11:15:24] * sbx thankfulsqueaks.
[11:15:29] <sbx> :\
[11:16:01] * Darke was thinking more sea lion or walrus, but a mouse works. <grin>
[11:16:25] <sbx> What sound do they make?
[11:17:20] <Darke> You've never seen a sea lion jump up and clap it's flippers 'honking' and wanting a fish before? Even on tv? <grin>
[11:17:31] <sbx> "honk" alright
[11:17:42] <sbx> I wasn't sure how to describe it. :-)
[11:17:58] <sbx> s/thankfulsqueaks/thankfulhonks/
[11:18:06] <Darke> Me neither. It's sort of a 'gronk!' crosses with a 'wheese'. <grin>
[11:18:15] <Darke> s/crosses/crossed/
[11:18:45] <sbx> Hhrouawmph
[11:18:48] <sbx> heh heh
[11:18:59] * sbx wheezes.
[11:19:06] <sbx> o_O
[11:19:11] <Darke> Speaking of which, you might find this amusing: <grin> http://www.brunching.com/images/geekchartbig.gif This being the abridged version: http://www.brunching.com/features/geekhierarchy.html
[11:19:33] <Darke> Yes, that 'Hhrouawmph' is kind of what they sound like. <snicker>
[11:20:50] <sbx> haha
[11:20:58] <sbx> Arrow down -> Consider themselves less geeky
[11:21:04] <sbx> :|
[11:21:37] <Darke> <nod> Theoretically, the lower down on the chart, the more 'geeky' you are. <grin>
[11:23:11] <sbx> Hmm, what are you implying by showing this? ;-D
[11:23:59] <sbx> "Fanfic Writers Who Put Themselves In The Story"
[11:24:01] <sbx> hmm
[11:24:02] <sbx> heh
[11:24:20] <Darke> Nothing. <grin> I just happened to have been forwarded and seen this for about the 5th time in 2 or 3 weeks. So I figured I'd pass it on. <innocentwiggle>
[11:24:36] * sbx likes the two-way arrows. :)
[11:25:21] * Darke noddlenoddlenods. Agreed!
[11:25:25] <sbx> This chart seems to say that Furries think very highly of themselves, and are not regarded that way at all by everyone else.
[11:26:14] <sbx> s/everyone/anyone/
[11:26:51] * sbx goes to the big chart and says "But wait! There's more!"
[11:28:05] <Darke> Pretty much. <grin> Most of 'furry fandom' seems to be looked down upon by almost everyone. <shrug> There are quite a few among it that are considered egotists, but most of them revel in their apparent 'geekyness'. <snicker>
[11:28:53] <sbx> Damn! Where do you find this stuff?
[11:29:08] <sbx> That was hilarious, thanks!
[11:30:46] <Darke> Hmm... I tripped over a newsgroup posting about it twice, in two groups. One mailing list. Once in email from friends, and I originally tripped over it whilst reading movie reviews on that site. <grin> I don't know how I seem to locate this stuff, too much web browsing I suppose.
[11:36:03] <sbx> I suppose. I'm just wondering what everyone has against the Furries.
[11:36:20] <sbx> Not including Erotic Furries.
[11:40:10] <Darke> I expect it's because of the percieved overlap between the Furries and the Erotic Furries, then there's the, again percieved 'beasiality' aspect of the whole thing which a lot of people seem to complain about...
[11:41:32] * Darke also remembers a quote from a friend, saying something along the lines of, that he likes furries because they have the 'best' porn. <grin>
[11:43:06] <sbx> heh heh he.. :\
[11:43:20] <sbx> I wonder if there are any 'Slimies'.
[11:43:21] <sbx> :P
[11:43:29] <Darke> Slimies?
[11:43:31] <sbx> why the bias towards furry animals?
[11:43:34] <sbx> :)
[11:43:56] <sbx> what about Arachnidies
[11:43:58] <sbx> heh
[11:44:00] <sbx> nevermind
[11:44:04] * sbx shudders.
[11:44:21] <Darke> For myself? <grin> I don't really know.
[11:44:36] <sbx> here is my best effort at an interesting web link - http://cvsbook.red-bean.com/cvsbook.html
[11:45:29] * Darke drops that into his Software Development bookmark list. "Thanks!"
[11:45:55] <sbx> :-)
[11:46:10] <sbx> At the moment all I can do with CVS is co, and update.
[11:46:12] * Darke has seen anthro lizard/dinosaur furry artwork, he doesn't seem to remember seeing any spiders though.
[11:46:20] <Darke> Same with me. <grin>
[11:48:20] * Darke blinks and cringes a little, "Oh, yes, one with slugs as well. But you don't want to see it, and really, neither do I." <ickfluff>
[11:50:17] <sbx> Odd. After freaking myself out thinking about spiders, I look around the room and see a hole in the ceiling above my head.
[11:50:27] <sbx> Spiders like to drop from holes in the ceiling.
[11:50:29] <sbx> Hmm...
[11:50:37] * sbx moves over a few inches.
[11:51:46] <Darke> Which reminds me, another of the biases against furies, are that the extremes are _really_ extreme, and so they get talked about disproportiantely to the rest of it. <grin> I get the feeling that most of 'us' are relatively 'normal' for what it's worth.
[11:52:26] <sbx> for what it's worth, there was an mtv special about the extreme furries, and they didn't seem to be making fun of them :)
[11:52:35] <sbx> not that i watched most of it, but i saw a few minutes
[11:52:35] * Darke watches sbx shy away from the whole. "Don't come to .au then. <grin> We have lots of spiders for you to choose from. Most of the most deadly are the smaller ones."
[11:52:48] <sbx> bah
[11:52:52] <sbx> There aren't any spiders in this apartment... I think.... no, of course not.
[11:53:01] <sbx> I'm being paranoid.
[11:53:06] * sbx laughs nervously. :-D
[11:53:12] <Darke> (mtv) I've heard about that, I haven't seen it though.
[11:53:32] * Darke drops a `mtv furry` search into his gnutella client. It can't hurt.
[11:53:53] <sbx> how does gnutella work?
[11:55:13] <sbx> and similiar services
[11:55:17] <Darke> The national 'government' radio station here did a 15 minute series based around an alphabet of 'sex' topics, that is the first day they'd have the particular topic related to 'A' and so on. 'P' was for Plushiphiles. <grin> It was quite interesting.
[11:55:38] <Darke> Are you asking how the peer-to-peer system works? Or more detail?
[11:56:03] <sbx> I'm sure it was! :O
[11:56:05] <sbx> hmm
[11:56:17] <sbx> Yes, more detail on how a peer-to-peer system works.
[11:56:26] <sbx> or whatever you can tell me :-)
[11:56:47] * Darke has the mp3 of it around here somewhere, if your _really_ interested. <grin> It was actually quite balanced IMHO for what it was.
[11:57:11] <sbx> Those peer-to-peer systems that are designed for distributed file storage specifically?
[11:57:24] <sbx> hehe
[11:57:30] <Darke> Just a sec and I'll see if I can locate a weblink to some information. It's easier then me recreating it from my brain anyway. <grin>
[11:58:12] <sbx> I just am interested in wondering how they can be decentralized.
[11:58:32] <sbx> How do you find servers?
[11:58:36] <sbx> or hosts
[11:58:37] * sbx shrugs.
[11:59:30] <Darke> For a very, very simplified description, page down to "Gnutella Is the Game: Telephone", I'm still looking. <grin> http://www.gnutellanews.com/information/what_is_gnutella.shtml
[12:00:01] <sbx> That will probably be enough, as I've already lost interest.
[12:00:22] * sbx points to the sky and yells "Hehe look, a butterfly!" and runs off after it.
[12:00:29] <sbx> :-)
[12:00:43] * Darke thinks sbx is very, very easy to overload with information. <grin>
[12:02:15] * sbx learns of the "horizon".
[12:04:06] <sbx> "Gnutella is Anonymous"
[12:05:42] <sbx> Ah, "Gnutella Is the Game: Telephone".
[12:07:13] <Darke> Technically no, AFAIKT. Since you're traceable by ip address, if you download or actively query any particular server. Drop it though a couple of proxies and it should be 'safer'. <grin>
[12:10:18] <sbx> "The guy you asked originally doesn't even know that you're the person who's really asking the question. Err...searching for that strawberry-rhubarb pie recipe."
[12:11:12] <sbx> If LA was hit by Dr. Evil, Gnutella wouldn't notice!
[12:11:36] <Darke> So you're saying the rest of the world would notice? <grin>
[12:11:55] <sbx> :)
[12:12:47] <Darke> "Oh, nah, it's just another one of those hollywood film adverts."
[12:14:09] <sbx> "You don't have to stand around in your kitchen for the next three hours waiting for some geek to switch the DNS from GlobalCenter to Exodus."
[12:14:21] <sbx> I really have to do that sometimes. :|
[12:15:05] <Darke> Scary.
[12:15:17] <sbx> "Just to emphasize how revolutionary this is: hungry lawyers are probably more destructive than nuclear weapons"
[12:15:33] <Darke> Oh, most certainly.
[12:15:39] <sbx> Indeed.
[12:16:36] <sbx> Hmm, ok but don't you have to connect to some server to begin your search?
[12:16:55] <sbx> The "Gnutella Network" hub or something?
[12:25:41] <Darke> No necessarily, you only need to know the ip address of one machine on the network, IIRC.
[12:28:20] <sbx> Yes, if you know the IP address of course. :-)
[12:28:25] <sbx> Thanks for the information.
[12:28:42] <sbx> I'm not sure why I havn't tried Gnutella or anything like it yet.
[12:28:47] * sbx shrugs.
[12:33:40] * Darke points you at gtk-gnutella on sourceforge. It's the client he uses, and it's IMHO the best client under linux.
[12:35:10] <Darke> Well, you can also know the hostname too, that would also be acceptable. For example, you could specifically 'seed' your client from a friends client, if you knew their hostname. <grin>
[12:36:25] <sbx> Seed?
[12:36:36] * Darke watches another $foreign_language spam roll into his email inbox.
[12:37:26] * sbx sometimes likes foreign language spam better than native language spam. :-)
[12:37:39] <Darke> Get the ipaddresses of other clients to connect to. You're normally connected to 'n' other nodes in the network. In my case I've got it set to try to keep 6 connections running at a time.
[12:37:57] <Darke> And I've got 7000 potential hosts in my hosts cache.
[12:38:21] <sbx> Ah, yes. Wow... I forgot that any host can be a client or server.
[12:38:25] <sbx> In Gnutella.
[12:38:42] <Darke> Yep. <grin> It's a 'robustness' thing.
[12:38:48] <sbx> Is Darke distributed now? :-)
[12:39:12] <Darke> Distributed? How do you mean? <grin>
[12:39:28] <sbx> Have you become one with the global network?
[12:39:52] <Darke> Yep. I'm online right now with it.
[12:40:00] <sbx> Excellent.
[12:40:43] * sbx plays with rox.
[12:41:03] * Darke is trying to hunt down some fansubbed anime he was recommended. Along with getting the music video to Weird Science. <grin>
[12:41:42] <sbx> I really need some bandwidth.
[12:42:13] * sbx is only able to leech a trickle of blood from the beast that is the Internet.
[12:42:30] <sbx> Er, I mean... I can barely download anything, and there is no way I would share anything. :P
[12:42:35] * Darke nodnodnods. Bandwidth is good.
[12:42:37] <sbx> at 24k
[12:42:38] <sbx> heh
[12:42:44] <sbx> 24kbps even
[12:43:03] <Darke> Agreed. <grin> It's a bit difficult then.
[12:46:04] <sbx> Oh... on a different subject, I have tried KDE and GNOME again since upgrading my memory to 128M, and must say that they are quite usable even on a 200MHz box. :-)
[12:47:11] <sbx> That doesn't mean I would continue to use them. Why launch KDE just to play Minesweeper when I can load the application just fine from Blackbox? :-)
[12:47:32] <Darke> Cool. <grin> So, the question now is, do they work as well as winXP on a 200Mhz box, or better?
[12:47:43] <Darke> Agreed. <grin>
[12:48:21] * sbx coughs, and pretends he didn't hear XP.
[12:48:57] <Darke> win2k then? <grin>
[12:50:47] <sbx> I will *admit* to installing Win95 at one time, and that I could possibly still have it installed, but will not admit to using it. :P
[12:51:59] * Darke has win2k installed on his gaming machine. A 900Mhz athlon. There's no way he would run it on a 200Mhz processor. It was slow enough running NT on the two-cpu 250Mhz pentium machines at uni.
[12:52:12] <Darke> s/250/350/
[12:53:43] <sbx> Seriously though, I have nothing against any operating system, but didn't think you needed me to tell you if WinXP works well on a 200MHz machine.
[12:54:12] <sbx> I use Win95 to play Jumpgate and other games if I need to.
[12:55:31] <sbx> I would also use it to see how webpages I design look in IE, but I don't care enough about that to waste time rebooting.
[12:56:05] <sbx> http://www.spenced.com/linux/microsoft.jpg
[12:59:18] * Darke giggles. "Cool! I like!"
[13:00:23] * Darke understands not caring enough how things look under IE, or IMHO, any specific browser.
[13:07:02] <sbx> I've been using CSS for most stuff lately, and IE is pretty good at that anyway.
[13:07:12] * sbx plays mp3s with ROX.
[13:10:42] <Darke> ROX?
[13:12:30] <sbx> :-)
[13:12:33] <sbx> http://rox.sourceforge.net
[13:12:44] <sbx> its a filer/filemanager
[13:12:51] <sbx> and some other things, but i just have the filer component
[13:13:11] <sbx> it keeps being mentioned on the Blackbox ML so i decided to get it and I do like it
[13:13:25] <sbx> fast and simple
[13:13:52] <sbx> very fast
[13:22:22] <sbx> Darke: Is your Gnutella hosts list the same as the "horizon"?
[13:22:26] <Darke> Oooooh. Very nice. <grin> For some reason it's screaming 'mac' at me.
[13:22:38] <Darke> horizon?
[13:22:54] * sbx screams 'mac' at Darke.
[13:22:57] <sbx> yes
[13:23:10] <sbx> the gnutella page said horizon was your known users
[13:23:52] <sbx> The segment of people you can share with are your current "horizon".
[13:24:06] <sbx> max 10000
[13:24:31] <sbx> That is what I got from that page anyway.
[13:25:37] <Darke> Ahh... kind of. It may be, it may not be. <grin> In theory the 'maximum' size your 'horizon' is the size of the number of hosts you're connected to, plus the number of hosts each of your hosts are connected to, and so on, for the maximum number of 'hops' that you set. I think. <grin>
[13:27:26] <Darke> Ahh, it's called TTL. You can set both the size of the ttl you send out, and the 'maximum' ttl that you'll accept before discarding it. I don't know exactly how it works though.
[13:36:13] <sbx> Oh I get it. The webpage said there was some kind of maximum set so that the network was not slowed to a crawl.
[13:56:11] * Darke nods.
[14:00:48] <sbx> I must retire for the weekend.
[14:00:50] * sbx waves.
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[14:21:42] <wjp> hi
[14:21:48] * Darke bows, "Hello."
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[15:12:06] <Colourless> hi
[15:13:50] <Colourless> so no one's found the memory leak yet? :-)
[15:38:19] <wjp> hi
[15:38:24] <wjp> memory leak?
[15:38:34] <Colourless> yeah
[15:39:30] <Colourless> in the midi code. effects everyone except win32 and mac :-)
[15:40:38] <Colourless> now fixed
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[15:41:53] <Kirben> Hi
[15:42:01] <wjp> hi
[15:42:04] <Colourless> hi
[15:42:37] <Kirben> Colourless: could you add missing headers ?
[15:43:46] <Colourless> what missing headers?
[15:45:30] <Kirben> odd
[15:45:48] <Kirben> they are listed as in cvs on web site but I don't get them with cvs update
[15:46:05] <Kirben> The new *.h files in headers directory
[15:46:21] <Colourless> do a co and see if that works
[15:53:56] <Kirben> I did fresh checkout to be on safe side
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[16:00:51] <Darke> Hello.
[16:01:45] <Colourless> hi
[16:04:41] <Fingolfin> hi
[16:04:44] <wjp> hi
[16:09:58] * Darke grins, for once it looks like someone was a little too overenthusiastic with the std::'s.
[16:10:22] <Colourless> explain
[16:11:33] <Colourless> * game.cc : Namespace stuff
[16:11:34] <Colourless> * gamemap.cc : Compiling error
[16:11:34] <Colourless> * msvcstuff/msvc_kludges.h : Headers dir
[16:11:34] <Colourless> * audio/xmidi.*, audio/midi_drivers/mac_midi.cc,
[16:11:34] <Colourless> audio/midi_drivers/win_midiout.cc : Fixing up a memory leak that
[16:11:34] <Colourless> was occuring for all the builds except Win32 and Mac.
[16:11:36] <Colourless> gee opps
[16:11:48] <Colourless> you're talking about strdup right?
[16:11:51] <Darke> gcc3.0.3 was complaing about a 'std::strdup' on line 92 of game.cc. Removing the 'std::' fixed it. I'm going to poke around and see if we're just including the C header rather then the C++ one.
[16:11:55] * Darke nods.
[16:12:37] <Colourless> well, it wont compile for me without it :-)
[16:13:02] <Colourless> i think though strdup isn't exactly part of ansi c++ (any more)
[16:13:07] <Darke> Odd. I include <cstring> but it still doesn't work.
[16:13:16] * Darke agrees with your suspicions.
[16:13:16] <Colourless> /me notes this in his header
[16:13:17] <Colourless> prototypes for oldnames.lib functions
[16:13:32] <Colourless> strdup is in the section
[16:14:44] <Colourless> now I think that using strdup could actually be a 'bad' thing
[16:15:20] <Fingolfin> strdup is not exactly a standard function
[16:15:24] <Fingolfin> and should be avoided like the pest
[16:15:26] <Colourless> yeah I think it is a VERY bad thing
[16:15:37] <Fingolfin> esp. in C++ code :)
[16:15:49] <Darke> There's an easy solution. A `#ifdef MSVC` (or whatever) enclosed `using std::strdup;` statement. As a temporary thing anyway. <grin>
[16:16:02] <Colourless> yeah, the pointer returned by it ends up getting given to a delete 
[16:16:17] <Colourless> darke: i can fix that up elsewhere
[16:16:27] <Colourless> but that's no longer a concern :-)
[16:16:44] <Darke> No problem. <grin>
[16:17:08] <Fingolfin> why do we use strdup anyway?
[16:17:15] <Colourless> ask jeff :-)
[16:18:09] * Darke has a reflexive avoidance of char*'s for some reason...
[16:18:33] <Fingolfin> *cough*
[16:18:49] * Fingolfin has completly removed strdup several times in the past, somehow it keeps cropping up =)
[16:20:00] <Fingolfin> Colourless: midi support compiles fine for me with pentagram and exult, now I should check if it actually works, at least in exult :) (i.e. despite your changes =)
[16:20:12] * Darke wonders if there is a way to setup filters at `cvs commit` time so the server will reject with a `Bad boy, no cookie` message or something similar, if a few... umm... keywords are used. <innocentgrin>
[16:24:23] * Fingolfin points out that exult uses: strdup, newstrdup (our own replacement), and g_strdup (glib version) ugh
[16:24:51] * Darke snickers.
[16:25:41] * Colourless thinks the Pentagram team won't do those sorts of things :-)
[16:26:15] * Darke nominates Fingolfin to be chief knuckle breaker. <grin>
[16:26:36] <Fingolfin> nah nah you got it wrong
[16:26:41] <Fingolfin> I am chief CVS breaker =)
[16:27:03] * Darke has noticed. <innocentlop>
[16:27:04] <wjp> speaking of which, you broke pentagram ;-)
[16:27:45] <wjp> or maybe it was Colourless; not sure
[16:27:50] <Colourless> who?
[16:27:58] <wjp> anyway, the linux version needs a -DHAVE_SNPRINTF
[16:28:00] <Colourless> I *know* i broke it
[16:28:08] <Colourless> oh, well, yes, that was me
[16:28:58] <Darke> And Colourless is obviously either Fingolfin's right paw man, or his understudy CVS breaker. <grin>
[16:29:28] <Fingolfin> he wants to ursurp my position
[16:29:31] <Fingolfin> but he has no chance, muwahaha
[16:29:34] <Colourless> well, i pretty much broke everything :-)
[16:29:44] * Darke decides that he'd best disappear and go to sleep, before Colourless kicks him. <grin> "Night all!"
[16:29:55] <Colourless> of course I was just forcing change
[16:29:57] <Fingolfin> wjp: I hacked up pentagram, to get it workin temporarily
[16:29:59] <Colourless> bye darke
[16:30:03] <Fingolfin> you will just have to modify the Makefile for now
[16:30:06] <Fingolfin> cya Darke
[16:30:06] <-- Darke has left #exult ()
[16:30:17] <Fingolfin> wjp: we should start to use a configure script
[16:30:26] <Fingolfin> in fact I could start one right now...
[16:32:38] <wjp> maybe we should also have an autogen.sh to autogenerate the Makefile's in the subdirs?
[16:33:02] <wjp> this way we could also have them in the subdirs inherited from exult
[16:33:14] <Fingolfin> yes
[16:33:24] <Fingolfin> but I prefer the name boostrap.sh, more modern :)
[16:33:29] <Fingolfin> I am working on that, too
[16:33:51] <wjp> bootstrap.sh, I hope? ;-)
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[16:34:35] <Colourless> perhaps fingolfin is on bleeding edge and that is what it WILL be called sometime in the future ;-)
[16:34:58] <Fingolfin> bootstrap I mean
[16:35:05] <Fingolfin> no .sh but indeed two "t" :)
[16:40:39] <Colourless> so is someone going to fix the strdup problem?
[16:43:30] <Fingolfin> at least we should use newstrdup instead, I'd say
[16:44:21] <Fingolfin> Midi works over here in pentagram! woohoo!
[16:44:39] <Colourless> cool
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[19:51:47] <Sentack> Hello people. What's new?
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[19:52:47] <Sentack> Hello.
[19:53:35] <Fingolfin> hi
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[19:54:33] <Sentack> Got a developer question for ya.
[19:55:04] <Sentack> What tools to you use to build Exult for windows? And do you know of any graphical debuggers for windows that work well with it?
[20:00:34] <wjp> Windows? hm, wrong people here :-)
[20:02:03] <Sentack> I know it's evil but i need to do some game dev on windows and i would like to use SDL.
[20:03:12] <wjp> you could use mingw, msvc, cygwin, and maybe others
[20:03:58] <Fingolfin> the windows devs use all of the above I believe
[20:04:05] <Fingolfin> Colourless is using MS Visual C, no?
[20:04:14] <wjp> yeah
[20:04:19] <Fingolfin> wjp: btw, I have sort of a configure script etc. running
[20:04:24] <wjp> cool
[20:04:27] <Fingolfin> though I think autoconf behaves a bit shitty
[20:04:34] <wjp> in what way?
[20:04:45] <Fingolfin> it requires some files like install-sh which are generated by automake, but I don't want to use automake...
[20:04:47] <Sentack> I wish there was a full featured editor/ide for mingw32.
[20:04:57] <Fingolfin> Sentack: isn't there emacs? :)
[20:05:13] <Sentack> Oh god please don't torment me.
[20:05:25] * wjp wonders what's wrong with emacs
[20:05:34] <Sentack> Well at least it's not vi.
[20:06:38] <wjp> Fingolfin: hm, yes... that's indeed "a bit shitty"
[20:07:06] <Fingolfin> but I think I can do something about it - just call automake anyway - it won't hurt except the time it takes =)
[20:07:14] * wjp nods
[20:07:26] <Fingolfin> I am playing with it right now, so far most stuff works well
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[20:09:08] * wjp just finished Otherland 3 earlier today
[20:09:17] * wjp is _really_ annoyed at not having part 4 yet :/
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[20:10:41] <Fingolfin> hehe
[20:10:46] <Fingolfin> I still don't have parts 2&3
[20:10:50] <Fingolfin> :)
[20:10:59] <chihuahua> how do i disable the little cheesy music that plays over the midi when i kill a person?
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[20:11:15] <wjp> um, you don't
[20:11:30] <chihuahua> it's godawful :(
[20:11:37] <wjp> unless you feel you like hacking exult?
[20:11:50] <chihuahua> i dunno why it was put in there anyways
[20:11:55] <chihuahua> for people without midi?
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