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[00:02:23] <Fisu> Say, could someone answer a couple of question about Ultima VII - The Black Gate? Mainly I'm interested in the symbolic and political messages in the game.
[00:03:28] <Lord_Nightmare> servus: hmm... well, you could just make one model, and have a different bone position map for each frame, and perhaps interpolate between them...
[00:03:47] <Lord_Nightmare> but thats several levels of ridiculous complexity
[00:05:10] <Fisu> For example, I'm in the northern town in the desert with a scroll in my hand, which says "KEEP BRITANNIA CLEAN -- SEND THE GARGOYLES BACK!". Also the Avatar graphics are very nordic and the game seems to be loaded with Western art. Traditional folk costumes, statues, a king etc. Has the Richard Garrett (lord british?) wrote about his racial messages in Ultimas?
[00:08:55] <Fisu> Hell, Guardian has the facial features of a Negro.
[00:11:51] <Baastuul> Fisu, your answer lies in this! http://www.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~morph/Transformer/
[00:11:54] <Baastuul> Well, not really...
[00:18:34] <servus> I'm animating it with biped.
[00:18:45] <servus> I'm animating every humanoid and weapon with the same skeleton and animation.l
[00:19:14] <servus> I know how to do it, I just doubt my animation skill. I'm almost done, we'll see what you guys think :)
[00:19:41] <servus> There are people of different races within Brittania.
[00:20:28] <servus> Most people would consider the anti-gargoyle sentiment in the game to be an anti-racism sentiment -- a satire, but I don't EVEN want to say another word about the topic.
[00:21:32] <Baastuul> Well, I've always considered the anti-gargoyle sentiment to show the historical parallels between our world and with those of Britannia. In Vesper, for example, the segregation of humans and gargoyles is paralleled by the segregation of whites and blacks.
[00:21:56] <Baastuul> And basically all the ugly stuff that happened in our history.
[00:22:27] <Baastuul> Vesper has always reminded me of Alabama.
[00:23:18] <Fl00der> ho hum
[00:23:23] <Fl00der> it's 2:23 AM
[00:23:40] <Fl00der> and it's time to sleep for a while :D
[00:23:43] <Fl00der> cya
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[00:26:09] <Fisu> Well I've got some answers, thanks. Personally it seems to me the theme is more pro-racialism, pro-white than the 'anti-racism sentiment' you mentioned Baastuul. How does the conflict between the gargoyles and humans end in Vesper? But I've only played the game for what.. 40 minutes so I'l have to do a little more exploring.
[00:27:49] * servus . o O ( Sounds trollish in here )
[00:28:01] <Fisu> Picturing the symbolic Blacks as a horn-headed devils is a racial message in itself.
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[00:36:45] <Fisu> Of course, I'l shut up if what I'm saying is too awkward to be discussed in here.
[00:39:57] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
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[00:53:43] <Fisu> Oh well. If you would like to know why I came up with these oh-so 'frightening' implications in the fine game, you would perhaps like to check out http://www.whitecivilrights.com/ , http://www.natvan.com/ or http://www.stormfront.org .
[01:00:12] <Sheng_Gradilla> If you play Ultima VI - The False Prophet, you are more likely to understand what's happening in Vesper
[01:00:36] <servus> Iolo looks good while dying.
[01:02:05] <Baastuul> Fisu, that's a good question about how it ends... because it doesn't really end. Vesper isn't even in the later Ultimas... :)
[01:03:08] <servus> Neither is the Avatar, Baastuul...
[01:03:36] <Baastuul> ...What?
[01:03:56] <servus> Ooh, Iolo can walk, fight, and die! as long as he's facing north.
[01:04:49] <Baastuul> That's the true way to fight.
[01:04:53] <Baastuul> Walk and die.
[01:04:54] <Baastuul> Too.
[01:05:29] <Fisu> Sheng_Gradilla: thanks for the tip
[01:06:03] <Baastuul> What exactly are you planning to do with the information, Fisu?
[01:06:05] <servus> He can walk, sit, cast spells, and use single and double-handed weapons
[01:06:10] <Baastuul> You gonna write a paper of some sort?
[01:06:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> gargoyles and humans did not have cultural exchanges before, and did not know each other's tongue
[01:08:57] <Sheng_Gradilla> the cultural exchange formally begins at the end of Ultima VI, after a terrible war between them
[01:09:07] <Fisu> Baastuul: Mainly I was planning to enjoy the game -- Also I will perhaps write a short article or post about in the above mentioned forum.
[01:10:47] <Baastuul> Okay. Well, I don't know if Richard Garriott is really racist, and it's doubtful the point of the game is to advance a "pro-white" or racism sentiment. Like Sheng said, you'll probably have to play through Ultima VI to further understand everything.
[01:11:17] <servus> My cat's breath smells like cat food.
[01:11:31] * Baastuul pets Ralph.
[01:11:44] <Sheng_Gradilla> my cat's smells like fish and fried chicken
[01:11:49] <Baastuul> Did you watch the semi-recent episode where Ralph made a crayon sandwich for his dad?
[01:14:44] <servus> Please don't pet me.
[01:15:11] <Sheng_Gradilla> in Ultima VI and VII part 2 you can choose the Avatar's race
[01:15:55] <servus> Aren't there a set of official Ultima trading cards, several of which have the avatar cast in different races/genders?
[01:16:02] <Sheng_Gradilla> and I mean actual human race, not fantasy races :P
[01:16:38] <Sheng_Gradilla> yes, servus, there is at least one I know of
[01:16:48] <Baastuul> Fisu, if you write an article or something, stop by and let us read it. :)
[01:17:33] <Sheng_Gradilla> I remember the japanese Avatar, the negro Avatar, the anglo-saxon Avatar and some others I could not immediately relate to some race
[01:23:45] <Sheng_Gradilla> I looked at the head of the Guardian several times already, and can find just as much similitude to a negro than to any other human race
[01:24:51] <Sheng_Gradilla> heh, it looks so much like the Avatar from Ultima IX
[01:25:06] <Baastuul> I've always thought the Guardian looked like those red barbecue rib thingies you see in Chinese buffets. :p
[01:25:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> I always thougt it looked more muppet than human
[01:25:33] <Sheng_Gradilla> with that big mouth
[01:25:58] <servus> I thought he was some sort of sentient melon.
[01:25:59] <Baastuul> Haha, yeah!
[01:26:19] <Sheng_Gradilla> and that big chin does not look human
[01:30:17] <Sheng_Gradilla> the space between the tip of the nose and the opening of the mouth is inhumanly large
[01:30:39] <Sheng_Gradilla> looks more like an orangutan
[01:30:46] <servus> Avatar! Know that my face is most muppet-like!
[01:31:08] <Sheng_Gradilla> http://www.evolutionhappens.net/orangutan.jpg
[01:36:47] <Sheng_Gradilla> ah, here it is!!
[01:36:50] <Sheng_Gradilla> http://www.io.com/~dloubet/gallery/pictures/head.gif
[01:36:59] <Sheng_Gradilla> this is the Avatar from Ultima IX
[01:37:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> it was done by the same artist that designed The Guardian
[01:37:35] <Sheng_Gradilla> see the likeness?
[01:38:28] <Sheng_Gradilla> that's particularly the artist's style
[01:38:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> the cheek bones and general head shape
[01:42:48] <servus> The avatar still walks like a clockwork orange, but it's not my fault.
[01:42:55] <servus> Not unless I give him wheels.
[01:43:03] <servus> Smooth animation might come in later, but MUCH later :-)
[01:43:49] <Sheng_Gradilla> there's no reason to put wheels on the avatar for the moment then ;)
[01:44:37] <servus> It'd make him much more imposing.
[01:44:57] <servus> Now to get left/right/down animations
[01:45:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> can the avatar do somersaults?
[01:46:14] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[01:48:35] <servus> Yes.
[01:48:42] <servus> as a matter of fact. I made frames for that.
[01:52:11] <Sheng_Gradilla> and roll? :)
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[01:54:29] <servus> Just mirror it.
[01:54:35] <servus> It's actually the dying/puking frames.
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[01:58:30] <servus> I've made 178 models so far.
[01:58:40] <Baastuul> :O
[01:59:01] <servus> Out of 5,000 or so.
[02:37:59] <servus> Ugh, I've forgotten how to do everything I want to do in a track editor.
[02:40:55] <servus> Aghhh! Crashed max.
[04:25:43] <servus> yay, i think fighting animations look good :-)
[04:29:02] <shazza> 3.56
[04:29:05] <shazza> 3.56%
[04:31:54] <servus> Huh?
[04:32:21] * Sheng_Gradilla hugs servus
[04:35:22] <servus> EEEEEEEEEK!
[04:36:29] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[04:36:39] <Sheng_Gradilla> you squeal like a mouse :D
[04:40:30] <servus> Like a sherry, tyvm.
[04:41:37] <Sheng_Gradilla> are you related to Sherry? :)
[04:42:20] <servus> My name's lambchop
[04:43:22] <Sheng_Gradilla> laptop?
[04:45:19] <servus> Lambchop
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[05:37:32] <sbx> why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you
[05:39:17] <Sheng_Gradilla> to help recover your nickname when someone else uses it
[05:39:49] <Sheng_Gradilla> and in order to administrate channels and other things
[06:19:36] <sbx> hi Gradilla :)
[06:21:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[06:21:58] * Sheng_Gradilla hugs sbx
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[16:12:30] <servus> OK, FINALLY the Avatar and Iolo do all of their stinkin' little frames correctly. How painful!!
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[16:20:46] * sbx congratulates servus on teaching Iolo to speak Dutch.
[16:21:15] * sbx congratulates servus on teaching the Avatar and Iolo to walk too.
[16:25:32] <servus> Weet u waar u, avatar gaat?
[16:38:11] <servus> I am, however, now ready to crank out NPCs because I'm done with humanoid animation!
[16:38:17] <sbx> ?
[16:38:18] <sbx> that's great
[16:38:27] <sbx> Have you thought about dynamically changing NPCs' heads to match their portrait? (the NPCs that use generic shapes that is)
[16:38:29] <servus> All I have to do is create a model, skin it, and physique it to the skeleton.
[16:38:47] <servus> That'd look bad, probably. Definitely a not-at-this-time feature:)
[16:39:09] <sbx> I shouldn't say dynamic. What I mean is making custom heads for certain NPCs and using those instead of the generic model.
[16:39:10] <servus> I'm currently adding in ambient and point lighting so I can get a screenshot that doesn't look so harsh.
[16:39:18] <sbx> But if you do that you could just make complete custom models for them.
[16:39:22] <sbx> ok
[16:39:35] <servus> Perhaps, sbx, but that requires delving into other non-graphics parts of the engine so not righ tnow
[16:39:57] <sbx> all right
[16:40:13] <sbx> Aren't you going to make "crops"?
[16:40:23] <sbx> for that screenshot
[16:40:40] <servus> Yes.
[16:40:55] <servus> Want to make them? All it is is a cylinder with 3 height segments, constricted in the middle.
[16:41:05] <sbx> No I havn't made a rock yet.
[16:41:08] <servus> Cut off the bottom polies for speed since you'll never see them.
[16:41:17] <servus> This will be the easiest model ever, besides a box, sbx :-p
[16:41:23] <sbx> You can have open models?
[16:42:18] <servus> Yes.
[16:42:31] <servus> This isn't CSG ;-)
[16:42:45] <sbx> What's CSG?
[16:42:50] <servus> For instance, my spiderweb model is just a few polies in a mesh, with a texture on them
[16:43:04] <servus> Constructive solid geometry. It'll take a lot of math to explain it if you really want me to :-)
[16:43:19] <sbx> ah ok, no I know enough
[16:43:26] <sbx> at least, I don't want the explanation
[16:43:45] <sbx> I thought the engine would remove unused polygons or faces anyway.
[16:43:46] <servus> OK Got a new screenshot of Exult3D. this is the entrance to dungeon destard: http://220.127.116.11:81/images/screenshots/Abyss-13.jpg
[16:44:02] <sbx> Abyss?
[16:44:10] <servus> Polygons facing away from the camera are culled, yes, but it still has to think about it every frame.
[16:44:21] <sbx> that's true
[16:44:36] <sbx> This is your other engine.
[16:44:38] <servus> Better to do these things at design-time. Do everything you can at design time
[16:44:48] <servus> Yeah, it looks much better now. That's a really old, crappy screenshot
[16:45:19] <sbx> Still I don't think exult3d will look that good even when it's finished :)
[16:45:30] <sbx> The world is designed differently.
[16:45:47] <sbx> but maybe you can have lightmaps
[16:45:58] <sbx> and nice flames
[16:46:07] <sbx> and fog
[16:46:17] <servus> Fog only makes sense for first-person.
[16:46:31] <sbx> No no it's always good.
[16:46:42] <sbx> Or do you maen the way you do it, it wont work in third person?
[16:47:11] <servus> http://18.104.22.168:81/images/screenshots/Abyss-16.jpg here's a better picture
[16:47:12] <sbx> Some of the swamps could be foggy.
[16:47:26] <servus> I can do it, but it won't make as much effect in 3rd person looking down
[16:47:29] <servus> That's volumetric fog...
[16:48:16] * Colourless doesn't point out that volumetric fog is still fog
[16:48:41] <servus> It's not.
[16:48:46] <Colourless> it is :-)
[16:48:48] <servus> Not in OpenGL land, anyway:)
[16:48:57] <Colourless> sif opengl 'fog' is real fog...
[16:49:30] <servus> Right, and it's scene-wide. There are volumetric fog extensions fog GL, but I think that they are around OpenGL 1.3. I'm keeping this program OpenGL 1.1
[16:51:15] <sbx> That staircase looks like one in a Lord of the Rings game I saw recently.
[16:51:28] <servus> It's actually GL 1.2, and it's not even proper volumetric fog. It's fake and looks bad.
[16:51:34] <servus> I made that map in QuArK:)
[16:52:50] <servus> So, there are indeed ways to do volumetric fog in GL, GL1.1 even, but they're all hacks and I can work on them later, maybe. There are more pressing issues :-)
[16:53:10] <sbx> I don't understand "3 height segments, constricted in the middle".
[16:53:41] <servus> OK, imagine a cylinder with two circles of vertices -- one at the top, and one at the bottom. Now put two more circles of vertices in the middle.
[16:54:02] <sbx> yes
[16:54:11] <sbx> But it looks the same
[16:54:23] <servus> Constrict those two middle circles of vertices, and you'll get a shape like bound roll of hay.
[16:54:45] <sbx> ah I see, should have figured that
[16:54:48] <sbx> ok thanks
[16:54:52] <sbx> sure that would look like crops?
[16:54:57] <sbx> U7 crops
[16:55:04] <servus> Not crops, but there are shapes of tied-up bundles of crops
[16:55:14] <servus> That's what I'm thinking of :)
[16:57:51] <sbx> Are all your frames stored in one model file or is each model a different shape frame.
[16:58:52] <servus> Each model is a different shape-frame. I chose this because in many cases, one frame has nothing to do with the previous frame.
[17:16:44] <sbx> What's erlang?
[17:19:16] <wjp> context?
[17:19:43] <sbx> It's something Wings3D uses. I can look it up.
[17:19:52] <wjp> erlangen is german for 'to attain'
[17:20:04] <sbx> oh
[17:20:17] * Sheng_Gradilla is back (gone 09:30:24)
[17:20:25] <sbx> wb
[17:25:53] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
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[17:57:06] <servus> I like how whenever I edit a single .cc file in MSVC7, it requires EVERYTHING to be recompiled.
[17:57:12] <servus> Last I checked, C and C++ did not require that ;-)
[17:57:23] <servus> There are not even any exported functions in the file I'm editting!
[18:02:04] <servus> Hehehe.
[18:05:46] <sbx> Have you made any cactus yet?
[18:10:04] <servus> No.
[18:10:10] <servus> Hehe sbx, that is kinda skinny :-p
[18:10:31] <servus> I found druid though! I'm gonna be whipping out trees and stuff.
[18:10:41] <sbx> druid?
[18:10:59] <servus> http://www.id8media.com/3d_products/Druid.htm
[18:11:14] <servus> Even found the originally floppy and thankfully it still works
[18:11:28] <sbx> oh thats a sweet plugin
[18:11:41] <sbx> at least, the results are cool
[18:11:51] <sbx> The pink thing in the screenshot looks like the crystalline entity from Star Trek: TNG.
[18:11:58] <servus> It's pretty nice. It makes kinda high-poly models so I'll have to fudge a lot with what I produce, but it'll make good starts
[18:12:56] <sbx> I assumed you'd have to scale any models yourself since I don't have a scale to work with.
[18:13:27] <sbx> So you can fatten the tied-up bundle of crops too.
[18:13:30] <servus> The avatar is 40 units high
[18:13:48] <servus> Yeah I was just joking about the wheat actually :-p
[18:13:56] <sbx> that helps
[18:14:09] <servus> Want a .3ds of the avamatar?
[18:14:14] <sbx> yes
[18:14:18] <servus> Plants are hard to do low-poly, so I can do those
[18:14:27] <sbx> There is a tutorial on the Wings3D website how to make cactus.
[18:14:30] <servus> You could do rocks, monoliths, those things, if you texture 'em too :P
[18:14:33] <servus> OK
[18:14:52] <sbx> It could help me learn using the application.
[18:14:58] <sbx> How do I texture them?
[18:15:06] <servus> Be sure to LOOK at the Ultima7 cactii, and please name your model printf( "%03x_-%02d", shapenum, framenum ), if you catch my drift.
[18:15:12] <sbx> hehe
[18:15:16] <servus> Err %03x_%02d
[18:15:36] <sbx> Still have to figure out how to use Wings3D.
[18:15:36] <servus> So for shape 0x123 (that's in hex), frame 17, the model name is 123_17
[18:15:55] <sbx> is your model list in hex?
[18:15:59] <servus> Yes.
[18:16:05] <servus> Err. Lemme check
[18:16:21] <servus> Yes hex, they all start with 0x :P
[18:16:31] * sbx hasn't looked recently.
[18:16:32] <servus> I'm using an MS-DOS shapes viewer.
[18:16:44] <sbx> There is such a thing? U7Wizard?
[18:16:53] <servus> U7SHAPES.EXE
[18:17:08] <sbx> Oh yeah, U7SHAPES.
[18:17:17] <servus> Make a 64x64 texture and make an outline for cactus leaves and texture with that, and I can make a better looking cactus texture to reapply, if you like
[18:17:27] <sbx> How do you get a texture from the 2D shape?
[18:18:02] <sbx> You did it for Iolo.
[18:18:21] <servus> What do you mean?
[18:18:33] <servus> I drew the texture first, then made the UV vertices match it
[18:18:51] <sbx> So you have to draw it you can't extract it from the shape somehow?
[18:19:03] <sbx> I guess that would be pretty low res.
[18:19:30] <servus> http://22.214.171.124:81/files/Avatar_2D1.3DS and http://126.96.36.199:81/files/AvatarWM.png
[18:19:52] <servus> Oh, well what's the point of working with a 10x10 pixel shape? I drew it from scratch
[18:20:02] <sbx> thanks
[18:20:07] <sbx> any particular PNG format?
[18:20:18] <servus> 32 bit.
[18:20:27] <servus> Transparency is acceptable.
[18:24:42] <sbx> The avatar has a manly chin.
[18:25:08] <servus> It's all that butter substitute
[18:25:50] <servus> If you're interested: http://188.8.131.52:81/files/Iolo.png
[18:25:59] <sbx> I can't believe it's not butter!
[18:26:11] <servus> I kinda cheated you see :P
[18:26:13] <sbx> They don't have the same model do they.
[18:26:42] <servus> Slight changes :P
[18:26:58] <servus> They are both wearing very similar clothes -- tight pants and a long tunic
[18:27:47] * sbx imports the Avatar into the current scene and realizes how small the cylinder really is.
[18:29:07] <servus> Well I'll probably do the final export on all models, since alignment is tricky :)
[18:29:24] <sbx> Something wrong about Iolo's grin in that portrait.
[18:29:52] <servus> C'mere Spark;-)
[18:30:11] <sbx> Exactly.
[18:30:19] <sbx> hehe
[18:30:34] <servus> You won't see it that closely :--p
[18:30:34] * sbx wonders where the child model is.
[18:38:54] <sbx> The tutorial cactus is very high poly.
[18:39:26] <servus> You can do a good-looking cactus in about 40 polygons
[18:39:36] <sbx> ok
[18:40:00] <sbx> what about all the stingers?
[18:40:06] <sbx> texture only?
[18:41:10] <servus> Texture!
[18:41:16] <servus> I'm targetting low-end here
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[18:54:32] <sbx> hi Baastuul
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[19:10:33] <servus> Lousy OpenGL lighting... why isn't it working...
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[20:12:49] <servus> Oh my sweet Jebus
[20:12:58] <servus> I've been working on the WRONG glshape.cc all this time...
[20:14:37] <servus> *BONK*BONK*BONK*
[20:15:17] <servus> Still isn't working though.
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[22:49:20] <servus> This bloody GL lighting simply isn't working!
[22:49:28] <servus> I don't know what's wrong. It works on control cases.
[22:53:56] <Fisu> Any particular reason for trying to re-create the graphical look of U7 in 3D?
[22:57:11] <servus> Because it's possible, using all the original data.
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[23:30:21] <servus> Exult looks like Pagan on mushrooms right now...
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[23:35:26] <servus> Almost got lighting in, sbx. It's being a LOT more annoying than I thought it would be.
[23:36:26] <sbx> oh hi
[23:36:29] <sbx> whats wrong with it?
[23:36:40] <servus> I don't know
[23:37:03] <servus> It just simply doesn't want to light any textured polygons! It's very baffling.
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