#gemrb@irc.freenode.net logs for 22 Dec 2012 (GMT)

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[00:00:00] <chiv> http://trow.cc/forum/index.php?automodule=downloads&showfile=382 <- chinese traditional version, other exe is for simplified
[00:03:23] <chiv> you can run it through google translate if you like, but on the first page the downloads on left are simplified chars, on the right traditional chars. this is all an unofficial translation patch to the original version, which apparently wasnt translated well
[00:07:08] <edheldil_> Perhaps it would be good to unify gemrb.ini and gemrb.cfg so that you could override ini with cfg
[00:14:03] <lynxlynxlynx> i think there should just be specific mods for the few changes that may make sense
[00:14:40] <lynxlynxlynx> now the file can be simply overriden by normal modding even if you don't have write access
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[00:18:11] <chiv> it looks like the dialog.tlk from bgee has some backwards compatibility
[00:21:31] <chiv> and wouldn't you know, it seems to have the entries in german that are curiously missing from the file I found earlier
[00:22:22] <edheldil_> heh. Hopefully it's not a case of memory/disk corruption
[00:25:27] <chiv> i dunno, the way different dialog.tlk files have different lengths boggles my mind a bit
[00:28:34] <chiv> for example, you say your english bg1 dialog.tlk ends at 22185, mine goes to 24123
[00:33:24] <chiv> heh even the chinese one does
[00:37:19] <edheldil_> perhaps mine is w/o totsc
[00:40:56] <chiv> but the maddening thing is, entries before 22185 talk about ulgoths beard, mendas, staf of striking, cult guards etc...
[00:41:38] <chiv> hah, aparently a character called fuck face rodriguez was in there
[00:45:31] <Gekz> lololol
[01:22:00] <edheldil_> 'night
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[01:23:07] <thomcom> hey GemRBers
[01:23:24] <thomcom> amazing work btw. I gave up iPhone for a Galaxy Note 2 and am pumped to replay all infinity engine games. :D
[01:24:06] <thomcom> I'm trying to use custom portraits in icewind dale/HOW from GOG.COM. I made smalls and mediums that work when put into Portraits dir on the install that's running on my hard drive, but in GemRB it doesn't recognize the mediums. Is there a known solution? :)
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[01:27:52] <chiv> i have not tried that myself
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[01:32:52] <thomcom> I've got 3 kids, so i might as well spend my time playing the game looking at their mugs :D
[01:35:47] <chiv> i cant seem to get anything at all
[01:37:06] <thomcom> portraits?
[01:37:23] <thomcom> it is a hassle
[01:37:56] <thomcom> for iwd the smalls are 36x58, 8 bit indexed color bmps
[01:38:07] <thomcom> mediums are 110x170, 24 bit color bmps
[01:39:49] <chiv> pffft, stupid portrait website using jpegs
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[01:42:22] <chiv> ok seems to work for me in bg2
[01:44:01] <chiv> and iwd - what are you naming your portraits?
[01:50:15] <thomcom> MomL.bmp
[01:50:19] <thomcom> MomS.bmp
[01:50:49] <thomcom> could be a case sensitivity thing
[01:50:57] <chiv> try M instead of L - i think L is something else
[01:50:57] <thomcom> GemRB seems to be looking for portraits dir, mine is Portraits dir
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[01:53:42] <chiv> yeah it doesnt seem to like L for some reason
[01:55:24] <thomcom> M has me up and running
[01:55:47] <chiv> in fact, daftly enough, the game seems to only use L portraits on the chargen screen
[01:57:35] <chiv> i wish your family good fortune in battle, may your enemies be smoten into tiny chunks!
[02:18:19] <thomcom> hehehe thanks dude
[02:18:44] <thomcom> is there a radar for GemRB? bugfix database?
[02:19:10] <thomcom> seems like pretty good FOSS to me. Why the fuck would I want to spend my time working on somebody's open source enterprise database management software? lol
[02:24:47] <chiv> I think bugs mostly get handled on the wiki page
[02:25:36] <chiv> although there is the sf.net tracker
[02:28:02] <chiv> and of course if you think you can help, im sure the team would welcome it :)
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[12:18:26] <traveler> oh, in case somebody somehow could missed it ;)
[12:18:43] <traveler> i would like to have tosc 100% completable by v0.7.3
[12:19:01] <traveler> so this means i'll probably keep bugging you ;)
[12:21:54] <lynxlynxlynx> good
[12:22:49] <lynxlynxlynx> looks like most just played the main plot, without the tower
[12:23:22] <traveler> i hope it also adds up to supporting mods, as tosc somehow stretched it (levers, items consisting of multiple objects, triggers etc)
[12:24:25] <traveler> and i hope mods are crafted in this manner and not in one totally alien, relying on undocumented orgi. engine behaviour (one can only hope)
[12:24:49] <traveler> i mean bg1 mods of course
[12:25:14] <lynxlynxlynx> i doubt we don't support any of the new stuff it brought
[12:25:26] <lynxlynxlynx> iirc the bg2 engine was based on it
[12:27:07] <traveler> that would be lucky
[12:27:50] <traveler> i somewhere got impression that tosc was somewhat stretching original concept like pst
[12:28:08] <traveler> but i may e very well wrong
[12:28:11] <traveler> *be
[12:32:16] <traveler> speaking of phoenix guards, i've looked in console output while fighting them, unfortunately nothing suspicious about missed scripts, triggers
[12:32:39] <traveler> and their here behaviour is very unlike original engine
[12:33:32] <traveler> there they were immune to nonmagic weapons iirc, very hard to kill, 'dying' in fireball and resurrecting instantly
[12:34:00] <traveler> here we have something akin to glorified luminescent gibberlings with 8hp
[12:38:16] <lynxlynxlynx> make a debug dump of one of them
[12:38:27] <lynxlynxlynx> sounds like there could be multiple problems
[12:38:54] <traveler> please remind me how?
[12:38:58] <traveler> ctrl+m on actor?
[12:42:17] <lynxlynxlynx> yea
[12:44:00] <traveler> done
[12:44:47] <traveler> all in wiki, same as update with infravision
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[12:46:57] <lynxlynxlynx> infravision works on creatures, think of it as heat vision
[12:47:11] <lynxlynxlynx> so it's just a bit of extra tint
[12:48:29] <lynxlynxlynx> pretty boring effects on that stra┼żnik, i guess it's all in the script
[12:50:26] <traveler> eh but i've remember red tint in original
[12:50:38] <traveler> here it's preciselyno difference with helm05 or without
[12:50:53] <lynxlynxlynx> yeah, it's all in the script; if die then raise+fireball
[12:51:04] <lynxlynxlynx> but is it dark already?
[12:52:41] <lynxlynxlynx> my guess about the script failing is that it's using ReallyForceSpell and not ReallyForceSpellDead
[12:53:16] <lynxlynxlynx> though there may be a confusion about it on our side (target vs caster aliveness)
[12:54:55] <traveler> yes, it is
[12:55:06] <traveler> i've tried on all possible times
[12:55:10] <traveler> of day/night
[12:55:49] <traveler> may be colour blindness setting in ;)
[12:55:54] <traveler> but i hope not
[12:57:02] <lynxlynxlynx> hmm, confused comments
[12:58:06] <lynxlynxlynx> you can try removing AF_ALIVE from gemrb/core/GameScript/GameScript.cpp:758 and recompiling
[13:03:34] <traveler> not what we were looking for
[13:03:39] <traveler> now they are just unkillable
[13:03:45] <traveler> they should raise once
[13:04:11] <lynxlynxlynx> cool
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[13:04:39] <lynxlynxlynx> they kept raising?
[13:04:42] <traveler> still no fireball though
[13:04:43] <traveler> yes
[13:05:16] <lynxlynxlynx> well, from the script the result looks random, either fiery death or raise
[13:05:25] <traveler> on the side, not, aren't we missing some movie when resting for the first time?
[13:05:52] <traveler> hmmm... i just speak from perceived behaviour
[13:06:06] <lynxlynxlynx> it's a bit of a funny script, since i don't remember seeing *dialog* weights in any of them before
[13:06:44] <lynxlynxlynx> we play movies if they are defined/there
[13:06:48] <traveler> i speak only from perceived experience, so may be wrong
[13:08:27] <traveler> hah
[13:08:32] <traveler> there was fireball this time
[13:08:35] <traveler> right away
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[13:09:57] <traveler> hey, actually it may be right
[13:10:07] <traveler> bit hard, but well
[13:10:18] <traveler> fireball or raising looks random indeed
[13:11:18] <rocket_hamster> does python have something like c++ vector?
[13:11:44] <lynxlynxlynx> wouldn't a normal list do?
[13:12:06] <lynxlynxlynx> traveler: ok, looks like we need to special case bg1 then
[13:12:42] <rocket_hamster> yes lists just reading this
[13:13:45] <lynxlynxlynx> yep, bg1 didn't have ReallyForceSpellDead yet
[13:13:48] <traveler> _i say_ that it's rather needs recheck in original
[13:13:50] <traveler> ah
[13:14:16] <lynxlynxlynx> i'm just going off from the bundled action.ids
[13:14:22] <traveler> because now indeed you convinced me it could be random there too
[13:15:03] <lynxlynxlynx> well without this change the actions wouldn't run at all
[13:15:33] <lynxlynxlynx> fuzzie: any comments on the last 30 lines of chat log?
[13:19:48] <traveler> on the side note, permanently displaying enemies hp robs game of suspense a bit, but well.
[13:20:32] <traveler> you see 'unkillable' sarevok with 999hp, and phoenix guards with 8hp, that wasn't really meant to be seen
[13:21:15] <traveler> there was just 'barely injured, severe, badly' in original, no?
[13:21:27] <traveler> yes, i know it's annoying nitpicking :)
[13:22:41] <lynxlynxlynx> then something is wrong
[13:24:02] <traveler> well i don't mean permanently literally
[13:24:37] <traveler> so i think the behaviour is as designed in gemrb
[13:25:50] <traveler> all enemy creatures have hp displayed on script
[13:26:02] <lynxlynxlynx> you mean tooltip, right?
[13:26:16] <traveler> yup
[13:26:18] <traveler> that's the word
[13:26:31] <lynxlynxlynx> we do an allegiance check and obviously only party-friendly stuff should have the details
[13:26:57] <lynxlynxlynx> so do a debug dump on some of these that you see problems with and copy the EA value here
[13:27:06] <traveler> only party-enemy have hp in tooltip, all the times
[13:27:20] <traveler> even if only in non playable fragments
[13:29:06] <lynxlynxlynx> // non-neutral, not in party, no injured strings: display hp
[13:29:06] <lynxlynxlynx> <-- probably hitting this case
[13:30:01] <lynxlynxlynx> i'll just make them display nothing but the name
[13:30:12] <traveler> wait a bit
[13:31:22] <lynxlynxlynx> already testing the fix
[13:32:15] <lynxlynxlynx> works for the final battle sarevok
[13:33:15] <traveler> oh ok
[13:33:35] <traveler> i couldn't replicate the problem i had with sarevok in coronation attempt
[13:33:44] <lynxlynxlynx> but it only masks the problem
[13:33:51] <traveler> as he really didn't turn non-neutral
[13:33:58] <lynxlynxlynx> the real question is why is the string not found
[13:34:52] <lynxlynxlynx> hehe, all are -1
[13:35:52] <lynxlynxlynx> bg1 doesn't have these strings
[13:36:58] <lynxlynxlynx> doesn't look like there were hardcoded either
[13:39:12] <lynxlynxlynx> http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/bglpgiantitp/BG10090.png <-- looks like it really had no hints
[13:41:43] <lynxlynxlynx> yep, ogre mages and xvarts too
[13:41:51] <lynxlynxlynx> a bit more hardcore
[13:45:31] <lynxlynxlynx> ok, got that fixed
[13:45:55] <lynxlynxlynx> it'll be pushed later
[13:46:00] <traveler> ok
[13:46:08] <traveler> so no hints at all for bg1?
[13:46:16] <traveler> or what is verdict?
[13:47:42] <lynxlynxlynx> none for enemies
[13:58:02] <traveler> cool
[13:59:01] <traveler> hav a christmas film, you all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toe-8ykTUT8
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[14:57:20] <traveler> later
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[16:01:30] <brada> well that was disturbing...
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[16:45:40] <chiv> cyriak is a legend...
[16:50:01] <chiv> theres a command built into ubuntu called do-release-upgrade ... for all my experience with ubuntu, I should have learned by now to approach this command with the same level of enthusiasm that I would approach an alcoholic leper who is suggesting that we play a game of russian roulette with four extra bullets to up the stakes
[16:55:21] <rocket_hamster> :D
[16:55:35] <rocket_hamster> chiv: my motto is: "if it works dont update"
[16:55:56] <rocket_hamster> with linux this should be everyones mantra, at least for those guys who value their time and nerves
[16:56:07] <chiv> thats the trouble, it didnt - now it just works less
[16:57:02] <chiv> its only because I have the video card that isnt supposed to exist
[16:57:23] <rocket_hamster> ati?
[16:58:07] <chiv> sapphire took a chip meant for pci express and made an agp card out of it. its the fastest agp card you can get, which seemed like a good idea at the time
[16:58:17] <chiv> ati, yes
[16:58:51] <rocket_hamster> yes agp the dead branch of graphic card bus
[16:58:53] <rocket_hamster> :D
[16:59:07] <rocket_hamster> i have ati myself its pain
[16:59:24] <chiv> trouble is, I couldnt give a crap about upgrading my hardware, i just want to have painless access to latest software
[16:59:54] <chiv> that'll teach me
[17:00:09] <rocket_hamster> in this case kernel is the problem i guess
[17:00:15] <rocket_hamster> or X?
[17:00:27] <chiv> cant use the fglrx driver that worked, because its too old
[17:00:32] <rocket_hamster> i know lastest X and kernel has problem with some ati drivers
[17:00:37] <rocket_hamster> but im on fedora
[17:00:49] <rocket_hamster> couldnt get ati running since i upgraded to fedora 17
[17:01:08] <rocket_hamster> everything was fine on 16, so kernel and X from 2011/2012
[17:02:46] <chiv> it really should be against the law to make hardware with closed source drivers ...
[17:03:00] <chiv> otherwise what good is it, its a paperweight
[17:03:17] <tomprince> If it is just a paperweight, nobody would buy it ...
[17:03:29] <lynxlynxlynx> and it's not their fault anyway
[17:03:36] <lynxlynxlynx> it's x that keeps upgrading their abi
[17:05:17] <chiv> i have no idea whos fault it is, I would just be happy if everyone would stop pissing in the well so to speak...
[17:06:15] <chiv> i gave them money, how is it my problem to make it work properly? grr...
[17:07:38] <fuzzie> lynxlynxlynx: how is that not their fault? :P
[17:08:01] <lynxlynxlynx> only the closedness
[17:08:12] <tomprince> I have had good luck with the open ati driver.
[17:08:42] <chiv> the worst thing that ati/nvidia do is spam the marketplace with so many card versions that nobody has a clue what is going on
[17:09:44] <chiv> because 'its what people want'
[17:11:01] <lynxlynxlynx> so now choice is a bad thing? :)
[17:11:11] <chiv> illusion of choice
[17:11:34] <tomprince> Well, it isn't choice, if you can't tell what you are choosing between.
[17:11:41] <chiv> the bottom end is useless for what you actually want a card for, because everyone targets the top end
[17:11:54] <lynxlynxlynx> i know it is a double edged razor, but the cards all have public specs you can compare them on
[17:12:20] <lynxlynxlynx> not to mention sites that aggregate this nicely
[17:12:58] <chiv> but this is what makes pc gamers losers, most people dont get excited reading a 15 page card roundup on firingsquad
[17:13:36] <chiv> the hardcore attidute ruins everything...
[17:13:53] <lynxlynxlynx> i wouldn't know
[17:14:07] <lynxlynxlynx> the capabilities have long since outran the needs
[17:15:07] <tomprince> The problem is that it is somewhat opaque, the relation ship between the card name, and the hardware on that card.
[17:15:21] <tomprince> The latter being what is important for driver capability.
[17:15:25] <chiv> all I know is I watched pc gaming going from utterly dominant in every store in town, to barely visible
[17:15:29] <tomprince> s/capability/compatability/
[17:16:12] <chiv> and its all because its too damn complicated for its own good, i like my pc games and my mods and my keyboard and mouse, that doesnt mean I also like simple and stable
[17:16:28] <chiv> *I dont also like
[17:17:52] <chiv> err... sorry, i have no idea where that rant came from :)
[17:21:01] <rocket_hamster> chiv i think intel is working on some opensource support for their graphic cards
[17:21:04] <rocket_hamster> specially for linux
[17:21:41] <rocket_hamster> also system 76 or how is that company called sells notebooks and computers with linux friendly HW
[17:22:32] <chiv> thats half the trouble, when the companies actually support their HW in linux, they act like they deserve a pat on the back...
[17:22:45] <rocket_hamster> they do
[17:22:52] <rocket_hamster> they dont have anything for linux suport
[17:22:56] <rocket_hamster> is small part of market
[17:23:11] <rocket_hamster> they would hurt themself should they choose to go open
[17:23:34] <rocket_hamster> imagine nvidia makes opensource drivers, ati will reverse engineer sh*t from it probably :D
[17:23:52] <lynxlynxlynx> it's all about patent encumbrance
[17:24:01] <rocket_hamster> and money/other costs asociated wont be returned
[17:24:14] <rocket_hamster> what is linux in PC market? 1%?
[17:24:22] <chiv> and this is why I dont buy anything from anyone anymore...
[17:24:23] <rocket_hamster> by pc i mean home use
[17:24:44] <chiv> always excuses..
[17:25:08] <rocket_hamster> imagine you are in their position, will you risk going opensource and loose milions?
[17:25:18] <rocket_hamster> i wouldnt
[17:25:28] <chiv> they dont even have to go opensource, even if it would be better
[17:25:29] <rocket_hamster> well i would but if i was greedy manager i wouldnt
[17:26:07] <rocket_hamster> so what do you expect from them?
[17:26:27] <rocket_hamster> make up to date updates with everchanging linux, all its distros and for what? 0 profit
[17:26:28] <rocket_hamster> :/
[17:26:55] <lynxlynxlynx> well, that's a very simplified view
[17:27:19] <chiv> its not 0 profit
[17:27:50] <chiv> for one thing, if they actually did that, I would by buying off them... instead of sulking
[17:28:02] <rocket_hamster> chiv: even changing standard for toilet paper with company like microsoft costs milions :)
[17:28:22] <rocket_hamster> and there would be probably 5k people who would buy it
[17:28:24] <rocket_hamster> so why bother
[17:28:54] <rocket_hamster> it has high probability to change i would say in near future
[17:28:57] <rocket_hamster> with steam for linux etc
[17:29:04] <chiv> you're not seeing it, people dont buy off them and use windows because they like it
[17:29:21] <chiv> they buy it because that is the choice
[17:29:27] <chiv> the one choice
[17:29:31] <rocket_hamster> chiv: where i live people dont even know what linux is
[17:29:43] <rocket_hamster> im sure its like that in 95% of the world
[17:29:45] <chiv> which is by definition.. the abcence of choice
[17:31:11] <chiv> if the industry got behind it, they could rip microsoft a new one quicker than sony ripped up sega and nintendo back in the day :)
[17:31:53] <chiv> instead we get to look forward to patronising windows 8...
[17:31:56] <rocket_hamster> i dont think so
[17:32:06] <rocket_hamster> microsoft has huge influence
[17:32:21] <chiv> microsoft is the wizard of oz
[17:32:23] <rocket_hamster> governments, schools, ordinary users, computer sellers
[17:32:38] <rocket_hamster> every child in world is taught how to use windows for everyday use
[17:32:41] <rocket_hamster> from birtch
[17:32:44] <rocket_hamster> birth
[17:32:46] <chiv> they have power because of the illusion of power
[17:33:06] <rocket_hamster> they have power because people are lazy enogh and they just want their call of duty
[17:33:14] <chiv> yes but, using windows, however I might like to jest, does not make you too stupid to use anything else
[17:33:50] <tomprince> network effects
[17:33:52] <tomprince> and inertia.
[17:34:38] <chiv> then again, if people didnt get spyware on their computers, my brother would probably not get so much work. yay windows!
[17:34:52] <rocket_hamster> i asked many people why they wont switch over, Manager: i just want to do my stuff effeciently and fast, in linux tools are no as developed to profesional level, and it takes time to set up everything properly. mechanical engineer: linux doesnt have tools i need.
[17:34:57] <rocket_hamster> thats basicaly it
[17:35:33] <rocket_hamster> tools are not there, if there are they are not professional, on top setting up linux can be time consuming
[17:35:42] <rocket_hamster> if you are not computer enthusiast you just cant be arsed
[17:37:17] <chiv> thats what I am basically ranting about though.. who said adobe cant sell photoshop on linux?
[17:37:29] <chiv> etc
[17:37:38] <tomprince> Who says it is econmically viable for them to do it?
[17:37:58] <tomprince> i.e. chicken-and-egg problem
[17:38:31] <rocket_hamster> I dont know how much would porting to linux cost, there might be other problems involved like microsoft lobby, with company as adobe every little change in _anthing_ means millions $$
[17:39:11] <rocket_hamster> they probably have 20 people give their stamps if they change icon for "open file"
[17:39:15] <rocket_hamster> etc
[17:39:28] <rocket_hamster> + their managers prolly dont know what linux is
[17:39:42] <chiv> well, that is their problem, I am very much happy to not have anything to do with that level of anal :)
[17:42:49] <rocket_hamster> yes its anal but it will change
[17:43:06] <rocket_hamster> so maybe our children will play cod on linux only
[17:43:32] <tomprince> chiv: Except you seem to want adobe to release software for linux ...
[17:43:55] <rocket_hamster> imagine when steam starts pumping up games for linux and players realize it runs better for them, we will be ubergods!!
[17:45:16] <rocket_hamster> imagine people looking for c:\program_files "where are my games at?!" :D
[17:45:27] <chiv> tomprince: i dont care if they do or dont, im just saying who said they cant
[17:46:12] <tomprince> I'm saying why would they want to?
[17:47:29] <chiv> well, they probably know I don't want it, so they decided not to :)
[17:47:58] <rocket_hamster> chiv: question is, will we sell new version photoshop 2000 with 1 quadrilion $$ profil, or do we make photoshop port for ?? 20 bucks
[17:48:20] <rocket_hamster> try explaining that to the manager
[17:50:06] <chiv> well, im not asking adobe to do something stupid, I am asking why did it become a stupid idea?
[17:50:31] <tomprince> The question is, rather, when will it become not a stupid idea.
[17:50:32] <rocket_hamster> cos if they ported it, in my opinion they would loose cash and time
[17:51:36] <rocket_hamster> ofc if they want to make it linux friendly they will not only need to "port it" they will need profesional libraries, question is are they there? how much they cost? what are the licenses?
[17:51:38] <chiv> but its the elephant in the room again - everyone uses windows - who told them that it was clever to put their eggs in one basket?
[17:52:21] <tomprince> Who put all their eggs in one basket?
[17:52:27] <chiv> society
[17:52:45] <tomprince> As I said, network effects and inertia.
[17:53:00] <chiv> imagine if .. horror... there was only on brewery company and all your beer tasted exactly the same?
[17:53:10] <fuzzie> who cares about the PC market?
[17:53:23] <fuzzie> think about how many people do most of their web browsing on linux nowadays.
[17:53:24] <tomprince> And, they aren't all in one basket: see linux, osx, beos, android.
[17:53:25] <chiv> productive members of society
[17:54:00] <rocket_hamster> fuzzie: do you suggest mobile is the future and we should get used to finger sliding and finger tapping?
[17:54:05] <chiv> same way painters care about the canvas market :)
[17:54:28] <fuzzie> rocket_hamster: you know you can get devices with keyboards and everything, right? :)
[17:54:54] <tomprince> chiv: You seem to be treating society as a some entity that makes decisions in the best interests of itself. Rather than a bunch of individuals, all making their own decisions.
[17:54:57] <rocket_hamster> fuzzie: as long as keyboard and display is "physical" i dont see the use for mobile
[17:55:20] <chiv> ill treat people like individuals when they start acting like them :)
[17:55:41] <fuzzie> A lot of people are perfectly happy with mobile devices, especially when you have things like the Transformer Prime and the Surface.
[17:55:54] <tomprince> chiv: huh?
[17:56:14] <chiv> I jest
[17:56:20] <rocket_hamster> i cant see how programming on any mobile device could work for me
[17:56:42] <rocket_hamster> i will need keyboard and good display, then i can just buy a proper laptop
[17:57:13] <tomprince> But, most people don't program.
[17:57:24] <fuzzie> Honestly I can't find *any* laptop with a good display.
[17:57:45] <fuzzie> Well, Apple's fancy retina things, I guess.
[17:57:54] <chiv> I find the best solution to that one is run your laptop into a display when its at home
[17:58:36] <chiv> as a side bonus you get dual monitor :)
[17:58:46] <rocket_hamster> if they can make better HMI like some kind of cable you stick in neck and sunglases with projected images then i might consider going mobile
[17:59:00] <rocket_hamster> but only if it runs linux :D
[17:59:24] <fuzzie> but you can get Android tablets with full keyboards, 1920x1200 displays, >15hour battery life.
[17:59:48] <rocket_hamster> you mean physical keyboard?
[17:59:50] <fuzzie> sure
[18:00:08] <rocket_hamster> why not buy some proper laptop then?
[18:00:19] <rocket_hamster> slightly heavier but proper
[18:00:21] <fuzzie> because a proper laptop would be 3x the price for a much worse display and much worse battery life :)
[18:00:48] <rocket_hamster> yes but proper laptop runs proper OS instead of android :)
[18:01:28] <fuzzie> sure, so you can fight a lot with trying to make linux work or something on a laptop..
[18:01:50] <fuzzie> or you can just put debian in a chroot under android and have a fully-supported device.
[18:02:58] <chiv> 'heavy' laptops are pretty much laptops that are bad at their intended purpose anyway...
[18:03:02] <rocket_hamster> yeah thats like putting cake on top of borsc and enjoying the delightful taste :D
[18:03:11] <chiv> mmm
[18:03:27] <fuzzie> chiv: well, it depends what you call 'heavy'..
[18:03:56] <chiv> one of my friends has one that is larger than a briefcase
[18:04:21] <chiv> i dont think he uses it on the bus
[18:05:37] <fuzzie> but I think if you think there's a Windows monoculture then you are a computer enthusiast who isn't paying so much attention :)
[18:06:32] <rocket_hamster> fuzzie: do you know at least 10 ordinary people outside of computer science who use something different then windows for their PC?
[18:06:41] <fuzzie> rocket_hamster: who cares about PCs?
[18:06:46] <rocket_hamster> ah i forgot
[18:06:47] <chiv> well, i know its not really that way, i am just not gonna be happy until steve ballmer has lemon meringue on his face
[18:06:50] <fuzzie> especially if by 'PC' you mean 'not Mac'.
[18:07:16] <fuzzie> I mean, I can walk into a coffee place and find 10 non-CS people with Apple laptops.
[18:07:29] <rocket_hamster> yes we dont have then here
[18:07:37] <rocket_hamster> apple is non existent
[18:07:41] <rocket_hamster> in my area
[18:07:48] <fuzzie> but, yes, if you define the computer market as 'devices which run Windows', yes, Windows is dominant :P
[18:08:34] <rocket_hamster> and by pc i mean general computer you have at home and use for most of your work, be it engineering, HR, medical, whatever he/she/it is
[18:09:11] <chiv> I sort of define pc as any computer that you can create stuff on , so amigas and ataris would be in there too..
[18:09:13] <rocket_hamster> imo keyboard+mouse is best HMI so far we have
[18:09:18] <rocket_hamster> touch screen cant compare
[18:10:06] <chiv> i do think now that touch screens are ubiquitous, well start seeing some cool stuff directed at artists
[18:10:39] <rocket_hamster> direct interface to projection could be interesting if we ever have 3d projection cabale of direct contact
[18:10:49] <rocket_hamster> but for for 2d small display what can you really do
[18:10:57] <rocket_hamster> except from reading mails and playing simple games
[18:11:08] <fuzzie> rocket_hamster: which is why devices with larger displays are popular :)
[18:11:09] <rocket_hamster> and that artistic stuff ive seen some too
[18:11:21] <tomprince> rocket_hamster: What do most people do, besides that?
[18:11:39] <rocket_hamster> well most people, i care about myself first :)
[18:11:51] <fuzzie> computer enthusiasts tend to be *very* confused about how popular Samsung's Galaxy Note is. it's really expensive, and it's still just a phone, with a touchscreen - but it's >5" and people want a screen they can read.
[18:11:58] <rocket_hamster> and i dont want to spend rest of my life typing lines on touchscreen
[18:12:04] <chiv> most people are boring. we should not be expected to humour them
[18:12:48] <rocket_hamster> fuzzie: anything that wont fit in pocket is too big for mobile imo
[18:12:59] <fuzzie> rocket_hamster: right, but you are a computer enthusiast :)
[18:13:02] <rocket_hamster> anything that FITS in pocket is unusable for serious stuff :D
[18:13:51] <rocket_hamster> and i would like to add i would like mobile, but only if it ran proper linux/gnu
[18:14:04] <fuzzie> sure, but you can't really argue you're a typical example :)
[18:14:05] <rocket_hamster> cos i dont enjoy closed boxes or spyware
[18:14:12] <rocket_hamster> well ofc not
[18:14:16] <fuzzie> the larger world is perfectly happy with their iThing or Android Wotsit.
[18:14:40] <fuzzie> I think the only people I know without a fancy smartphone are either children or CS people like myself.
[18:14:57] <rocket_hamster> well i have prehistoric nokia myself :D
[18:16:11] <chiv> it is of course, important to have at least one defensive weapon with you at all times if you live in a rough area :)
[18:16:43] <rocket_hamster> my nokia iBrick will suffice :D
[18:17:41] <rocket_hamster> but i imagine there can be many uses for android mobile device, for example remote control of various stuff, as a tool for deployment of programs/scripts to devices like routers in hardly accessibel areas etc
[18:17:57] <rocket_hamster> like i know a guy who keeps his wifi AP on roofs of civil buildings
[18:18:14] <fuzzie> but you're thinking nerdy stuff :)
[18:18:21] <rocket_hamster> ive seen people control RC models with androids
[18:18:53] <fuzzie> think the people who come to repair my roof and have a device for looking up stuff and dealing with all their work stuff, for example.
[18:19:35] <fuzzie> they're not replacing desktop PCs of people who are stuck in an office all day, but that's not the whole market.
[18:20:01] <rocket_hamster> ive red somewhere there will be a tendency to convert every general computer to one-purpose-computer, so non programable just good for one thing
[18:20:19] <fuzzie> doesn't happen though. everything is linux now.
[18:20:41] <rocket_hamster> yes but if mobile crumbles pc over, it might just happen
[18:20:44] <fuzzie> TVs are linux. STBs are linux. phones are linux. routers, wifi APs are linux.
[18:20:59] <rocket_hamster> yes but it can be closed
[18:21:00] <fuzzie> linux will eat your electronics! nom nom.
[18:21:17] <rocket_hamster> like hardware closed, like no interface
[18:21:24] <fuzzie> people being silly enough to buy locked-down hardware is quite a different story :)
[18:21:50] <rocket_hamster> it can happen anywhere, they simply remove debugger/flash interface from product before they ship it
[18:21:53] <rocket_hamster> what do you do then
[18:21:53] <fuzzie> Alas, if you can find even *one* person with a mobile phone with fully open source software on it, then I will eat my hat.
[18:22:35] <rocket_hamster> well there is only that moko thing
[18:22:45] <tomprince> binary drivers, I think.
[18:22:56] <fuzzie> Well, the most important bit is the baseband/radio code.
[18:23:33] <tomprince> There is, at least open source software for the tower side, isn't there?
[18:23:34] <rocket_hamster> yes it is heavily patented cetified etc
[18:23:45] <fuzzie> tomprince: there is osmocomBB for the GSM client side also.
[18:25:09] <rocket_hamster> http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner
[18:25:11] <rocket_hamster> open HW + SW
[18:25:21] <rocket_hamster> its abandonned however
[18:25:33] <fuzzie> rocket_hamster: yes, the 'open source' bit is a lie :-)
[18:25:40] <rocket_hamster> really?
[18:25:49] <rocket_hamster> oww there is a catch :/
[18:26:17] <fuzzie> (you can thereotically run osmocomBB on it.)
[18:28:15] <chiv> ohh, I just found a really easy workaround to my hardware frustration
[18:28:47] <chiv> I don't know why I didn't try it before...
[18:29:20] <rocket_hamster> chiv: solution is to execute hexcode on paper? :D
[18:29:52] <chiv> nah, solution was : screaming. feel much more relaxed now.
[18:29:59] <rocket_hamster> :D
[18:30:26] <chiv> i didn' t give primal scream that much cred before...
[18:31:32] <rocket_hamster> you can try to throw some stuff around as well
[18:31:45] <rocket_hamster> using stuff that breaks is especially recommended
[18:35:35] <lynxlynxlynx> some of us would have already been forcefully retired / sent to an asylum if we screamed everytime ie threw another foobomb at us
[18:36:24] <chiv> thats yet one more thing to add to the case for working from home
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[19:17:55] <lynxlynxlynx> fuzzie: re ReallyForceSpell, do you think it's ok if i just add a remapping to bg1 gemacts.ids for it?
[19:34:42] <fuzzie> I don't know.
[19:35:04] <fuzzie> Sorry, I mean ,really no clue.
[19:35:08] <fuzzie> If it helps then worth a try..?
[19:41:35] <lynxlynxlynx> ok
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[20:43:11] <chiv> hamdulillah! I finally get to experience the gimps single window mode
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[20:48:40] <chiv> its...so...beautiful...
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[21:32:19] <traveler> have i missed any very productive pc vs rest flames by chance ;) ?
[21:33:12] <lynxlynxlynx> productive? nope
[21:33:28] <traveler> that's a shame
[21:33:30] <lynxlynxlynx> i've got another approach for you to try with the phoenix guys
[21:33:39] <traveler> i wouldn't like to miss any
[21:33:42] <traveler> cool
[21:33:45] <lynxlynxlynx> revert that AF_ALIVE hack
[21:33:55] <lynxlynxlynx> cp gemrb/unhardcoded/shared/gemact.ids gemrb/unhardcoded/bg1
[21:34:08] <traveler> i'm kind of floating right now, but be back in while, speak your mind
[21:34:23] <lynxlynxlynx> echo '181 ReallyForceSpellDead(O:Target,I:Spell*Spell' >> gemrb/unhardcoded/bg1/gemact.ids
[21:34:30] <lynxlynxlynx> that should be enough
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[21:46:01] <lynxlynxlynx> CamDawg: any news on the forum database issue?
[21:52:30] <CamDawg> First, I
[21:52:49] <CamDawg> I'd like to take a moment to express how happy I am to no longer be the admin.
[21:53:28] <CamDawg> Basically, what's happening is that we're just getting crushed with traffic thanks to BGEE, so we're going to move to our own server.
[21:53:48] <CamDawg> I haven't talked to Kat in a while, so I don't have an ETA.
[21:54:20] <CamDawg> Nothing's wrong with the DB or anything, thankfully.
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[21:56:40] <CamDawg> But man, the downtime is killing me.
[21:59:47] <chiv> see, I knew it was because its too popular :)
[22:02:59] <chiv> does anybody have any ideas about this: in Torment, when I move to a new area, I can still see all the background dialogue from the last area in the text window
[22:03:36] <chiv> this seems to keep going and going the more areas I pass, until gemrb starts slowing to a crawl
[22:04:17] <lynxlynxlynx> is it about bandwidth or power?
[22:05:04] <lynxlynxlynx> eg. mod downloads vs. all the actual site scripts
[22:05:51] <lynxlynxlynx> chiv: the obvious thing is that they shouldn't be there at all, so i guess somehow we think they should be persistent and move them to the next area with you
[22:06:03] <lynxlynxlynx> i doubt they could be heard from other areas
[22:06:18] <lynxlynxlynx> ctrl-shift-n will give you a list of all living actors
[22:06:25] <lynxlynxlynx> you can test with that
[22:06:40] <chiv> alright, ill see whats happening
[22:07:22] <lynxlynxlynx> for rooms and small areas like that it may be a different problem - maybe we display everything from the master area too, since those scripts and everyone are still running
[22:07:35] <lynxlynxlynx> but master-master area transitions should be completely silent
[22:08:04] <chiv> this is between what I assume should be different master areas: different hive quarters, hearing annah slag me off from inside the mortuary...
[22:13:38] <CamDawg> It's a little of both, but mainly horsepower. We're being throttled on DB queries, which is why the forums have been so slow.
[22:14:05] <CamDawg> Or an outright rejection of the query because we have too many connections.
[22:14:50] <chiv> ok the actors are not being transferred
[22:15:31] <edheldil_> I like Annah's banter, so no problem for me ;-)
[22:16:09] <chiv> she has a loud voice to be heard through the mortuary walls :)
[22:16:41] <edheldil_> She's outspoken, that's sure :)
[22:17:50] <chiv> curiously, it only seems to affect floating text that I have actually seen without fog of war
[22:18:39] <lynxlynxlynx> CamDawg: too bad
[22:19:01] <lynxlynxlynx> was there ever any thought given to merging with shs?
[22:19:07] <CamDawg> Well, I'm happy we're moving to better hosting. But, again, the downtime is killing me.
[22:19:28] <lynxlynxlynx> me too, most of our users interact via the forum
[22:19:31] <CamDawg> Funny you should mention it... one of our options is to move onto SHS' server.
[22:19:48] <CamDawg> Not to merge, but to share the server.
[22:19:57] <lynxlynxlynx> it came to mind since i remember they already pay a pretty ridiculous price for the hosting
[22:20:25] <edheldil_> CamDawg: killing two flies with one whack next time bgee releases :-)
[22:20:27] <lynxlynxlynx> merging would be great, but it's hard
[22:21:09] <CamDawg> I wouldn't want to anyway. Not that I don't Liam or the SHS folks, just that I think there's more value to (for lack of a better word) keeping the brand.
[22:21:22] <edheldil_> who would say the traffic and interest is so high...
[22:21:23] <CamDawg> *not that I don't like Liam
[22:21:44] <lynxlynxlynx> oh, i didn't mean to discontinue any brand
[22:22:04] <lynxlynxlynx> obviously i'm g3-centric, but i have a feeling g3 is more known than shs
[22:22:20] <CamDawg> Well, as long as it's up, that is. :D
[22:22:21] <lynxlynxlynx> fixpack, tweakpack, widescreen are all there
[22:22:44] <chiv> besides, gibberlings three is a much better name
[22:23:12] <lynxlynxlynx> spellhold studios is ironic if you think about it ;)
[22:23:57] <CamDawg> Well, I basically don't take much seriously, so a name from a Jansen story seemed perfect.
[22:24:51] <CamDawg> Gibbering Twelve also would have been a great name, but we got to use them for the Anniversary mod anyway.
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[22:37:43] <traveler> nope
[22:38:05] <traveler> guards reverted to original behaviour now
[22:39:54] <traveler> is there bracket missing?
[22:40:14] <lynxlynxlynx> yes, sorry
[22:40:38] <traveler> np, i hope htat would be it
[22:40:42] <traveler> *that
[22:43:15] <traveler> eh?
[22:43:19] <traveler> no sifference still
[22:43:22] <traveler> *difference
[22:45:23] <lynxlynxlynx> do you get any errors on startup?
[22:45:39] <lynxlynxlynx> you know, around that area that we complain about missing triggers and stuff
[22:46:28] <traveler> console you mean?
[22:47:58] <lynxlynxlynx> yeah
[22:48:21] <traveler> nothing interesting
[22:48:23] <traveler> [ResourceManager/ERROR]: Couldn't find 'crits.2da'. [GameScript/WARNING]: Aborted action due to death
[22:48:35] <lynxlynxlynx> that's much late
[22:48:36] <lynxlynxlynx> r
[22:48:48] <lynxlynxlynx> you're running from the build dir or reinstalling?
[22:49:59] <traveler> reinstalling
[22:50:03] <traveler> i did cmake
[22:51:01] <lynxlynxlynx> ok, just make sure the file is in the destination too
[22:51:34] <traveler> [DialogHandler/WARNING]: Errors occuring while in dialog mode cannot be logged in the MessageWindow. [GameScript]: Displaying string on: daerragh
[22:52:32] <traveler> it is
[22:52:58] <traveler> ids in bg1 unhardcoded, with one new entry
[22:53:09] <traveler> gemact.ids to be precise
[22:53:40] <lynxlynxlynx> hmpf
[22:54:31] <traveler> that's strange
[22:54:33] <traveler> [INIImporter/ERROR]: Bad Line in file: polish.ini, Section: [charset], Entry: '# Characters left from the original encoding' [INIImporter/ERROR]: Bad Line in file: polish.ini, Section: [charset], Entry: '# Polish characters'
[22:54:42] <traveler> totally unrelated though
[22:55:59] <lynxlynxlynx> should use ; instead
[22:57:03] <lynxlynxlynx> i'm a bit stumped why the override doesn't work
[22:57:22] <lynxlynxlynx> same action id, different translation
[22:57:30] <lynxlynxlynx> something for another day
[22:57:55] <traveler> *is confused*
[22:58:28] <lynxlynxlynx> forget about it for now
[22:58:58] <traveler> that was what _she_ said
[22:59:07] <traveler> *applause*
[22:59:25] <CamDawg> booooo
[22:59:50] <traveler> :(
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[23:05:54] <chiv> another segfault :( http://pastebin.ca/2295942 <-- happened in the buried village
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[23:11:12] <lynxlynxlynx> aC?
[23:16:44] <chiv> i havent narrowed down what causes it, seems to happen randomly unrelated to what my party is doing
[23:17:05] <lynxlynxlynx> do you still have that session open?
[23:17:16] <lynxlynxlynx> either aC is null or the action id is too high
[23:18:02] <lynxlynxlynx> likely falls under the "slightly different" annoyance category
[23:19:20] <chiv> i can go back to it, crash it again if you want to test somehting
[23:25:17] <chiv> actually, the dump is different this time
[23:25:33] <lynxlynxlynx> well, whenever you get a crash, try to find out the reason by inspecting vars
[23:25:37] <lynxlynxlynx> that's the whole point :)
[23:25:57] <chiv> hah, you assume I know what I am doing :)
[23:26:29] <lynxlynxlynx> you've done good so far
[23:26:50] <lynxlynxlynx> eg., to print the value of aC, you'd type "print aC"
[23:26:56] <lynxlynxlynx> or p aC for short
[23:27:29] <chiv> ok its not null
[23:27:54] <chiv> 0xa472de8
[23:29:12] <fuzzie> and aC->actionID?
[23:29:52] <chiv> 60
[23:30:28] <chiv> but the crash is different, stopped at aC= actions[i]
[23:33:41] <lynxlynxlynx> i?
[23:33:58] <lynxlynxlynx> sounds like something is corrupting memory
[23:34:29] <chiv> i = 2
[23:35:12] <lynxlynxlynx> heh
[23:35:29] <chiv> who would do such a thing to innocent memory... for shame..
[23:35:29] <lynxlynxlynx> what about actions
[23:36:40] <chiv> http://pastebin.ca/2295949
[23:37:04] <chiv> im typing on a different computer so no copy/paste...
[23:37:33] <lynxlynxlynx> yeah, the vector is toast
[23:38:09] <lynxlynxlynx> you can reproduce one of these easily?
[23:38:33] <chiv> its happened every time I have loaded up my buried village save
[23:38:44] <chiv> just not sure what triggers it
[23:38:51] <lynxlynxlynx> valgrind --track-origins=yes --suppressions=../testing/python.supp gemrb/gemrb -c ${1:-pst.cfg} &> val.log
[23:39:18] <lynxlynxlynx> adjust the paths, but that's the general way to try to find the reason for the corruption
[23:39:27] <lynxlynxlynx> it will all be dumped to that val.log file
[23:40:19] <chiv> whats the ../testing/python.supp?
[23:41:26] <lynxlynxlynx> a suppression file to keep the noise down
[23:41:56] <lynxlynxlynx> the file is static, so you can point it to any of your copies
[23:43:06] <chiv> ok... er... this may take a looong time
[23:43:36] <lynxlynxlynx> yes
[23:44:13] <chiv> I've almost scrolled up to the top of the save game list
[23:44:50] <lynxlynxlynx> show it to fuzzie if she doesn't manage to fall asleep, otherwise "tommorow" is a new day
[23:45:43] <chiv> well, im in no rush anyway :)
[23:46:15] <traveler> will there be official gemrb xmas thread tomorrow?
[23:46:16] <lynxlynxlynx> she's more competent than me too
[23:46:18] <traveler> ;)
[23:46:31] <lynxlynxlynx> i doubt the forum will be up by then
[23:46:32] <lynxlynxlynx> zzz
[23:46:39] <chiv> ok, my computer shut down
[23:46:55] <chiv> i dont think my athon xp expected this kind of torture
[23:47:07] <-- lynxlynxlynx has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:47:17] <traveler> i've meant irc
[23:47:20] <traveler> goodnight
[23:47:53] <chiv> night all
[23:48:02] <traveler> *interesting way to spend christmas, in a way*
[23:48:49] <chiv> thats putting a spin on it
[23:50:56] <chiv> this is hillarious, my computer literally just died
[23:51:11] <chiv> guess I dont have to worry about driver support anymore
[23:52:33] <-- traveler has left IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)