#low@irc.freenode.net logs for 29 Aug 2005 (GMT)

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[00:00:08] <Coren_> *shrug* It was easiest for me to do geometry because of the way I build the world.
[00:00:11] <servus> Oh, I completely reprogrammed my entire graphics pipeline since last time we spoke. Fixed a few bugs, and made it scale down to OpenGL 1.2 : o)
[00:00:31] <servus> All in real-time, too - none of this "You must restart for changes to take effect" silliness.
[00:00:32] <Coren_> Now with speculars you didn't. :-)
[00:00:44] <servus> Well no, the low-end pipeline uses lightmaps.
[00:00:54] <servus> "Scale down" not "Work just as well on".
[00:01:22] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/images/The%20Abyss/Abyss14.jpg vs http://sammatthews.com/images/The%20Abyss/Abyss14a.jpg
[00:01:25] <Coren_> My low-end pipeline does diffuse and shadows; but it's the boring one. :-)
[00:02:05] <servus> I fixed the light on the doors since Abyss14 was taken.
[00:02:17] <Coren_> I see you're still using xenon-arc floodlight for the specular engine. :-)
[00:02:19] <servus> So many fixes! I have only one more graphical glitch to figure out (disregarding new content to add)
[00:02:27] <servus> That's the same screenshot you saw a long time ago.
[00:02:59] <Coren_> Funny enough, I think 14a looks loads better. :-)
[00:03:12] <servus> I certainly do not
[00:03:26] <servus> Things sparkle, shimmer and shine in real-time with the high-end renderer.
[00:03:33] <Coren_> You've got this love for bling-bling. :-)
[00:03:51] <servus> Don't you ever use that term again.
[00:04:37] <Coren_> Heh. At any rate, in LoW, shiny surfaces are rare to begin with. I like my dungeons dark and gloomy and damp.
[00:05:24] <Coren_> I now christen you KikiTwo. "Ooo! Shiny!"
[00:05:24] <servus> Same here, but it's hard to debug rare things, now isn't it?
[00:05:43] * servus smacks Coren_ around a bit with a large trout
[00:05:43] <Coren_> (Ignore the reference if you don't know who Kiki is). :-)
[00:05:59] <servus> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Akiki&btnG=Google+Search
[00:06:22] <Coren_> Nope. Not that one.
[00:06:55] <Coren_> And I am *not* explaining Sluggy Freelance. :-) Go read 8 years or so worth of back archives if you're curious: http://www.sluggy.org/
[00:07:00] <servus> I asked you some stuff in the log.
[00:07:06] <Coren_> ?log
[00:07:06] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/lowlog.php
[00:07:09] * Coren_ goes to check
[00:08:19] <Coren_> No, the font is one big PNG which I chop up to render. Feel free to nab it and the code that does the chopping (handles kern pairs and all).
[00:09:19] <Coren_> You actually already have the font, it's in the textures archive I sent you some bit ago.
[00:09:49] <servus> I already use bitmap fonts, but my font is tiny and stolen from Jeff Molofee and gross. It's uniwidth-ness is the most disturbing part
[00:10:19] * servus destroys a giant cactus with his two silver maces
[00:10:42] <servus> Alright, I'll pilfer the font
[00:10:52] <servus> And your kerning table : o)
[00:10:52] <Coren_> I like mine. I did spend a few days messing with it to get it right. Calligraphy is a hobby of mine, this is my first attempt at a font. :-)
[00:10:56] <servus> Did you make it yourself?
[00:11:01] <servus> Drew it yourself?
[00:11:04] * Coren_ nods
[00:11:06] <servus> Hmm, actually..
[00:11:13] <servus> The current one I use I drew myself, come to think of it
[00:11:20] <Coren_> It shows.
[00:11:22] * Coren_ ducks.
[00:11:30] * Coren_ chuckles.
[00:11:36] <servus> Still gross
[00:11:46] <servus> Hey hey, calm down there, Mr. 4FPS
[00:11:57] <Coren_> It's -- err -- very 1970s. :-)
[00:12:22] <Coren_> Hey, I get 60-odd fps at 640x480. If there aren't too many lights around. :-)
[00:13:40] <Coren_> You want font1.png, metrics1.dat and text.cc to figure out how to put them together.
[00:14:49] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/images/The%20Abyss/Font01.jpg
[00:15:07] <servus> I already have a bitmap font parser; it should take no time to use a new bitmap font
[00:15:51] <Coren_> Hey, watch it with those letters, you could poke somebody's eye out!
[00:16:41] <servus> They possess Super-Serif powers.
[00:17:19] <Coren_> If you throw an O, it will imbed itself in most hard surfaces. :-)
[00:17:31] <servus> Like skulls?
[00:17:38] <Coren_> The other font is all soft and squishy though.
[00:18:03] <servus> Bottom one is supposed to be easy to read at small sizes.
[00:19:03] <Coren_> Only got ASCII in mine, though.
[00:19:45] <Coren_> The kern pairs are mostly right; although there could still be some tweaking. The most obvious pairs are okay those.
[00:19:58] <Coren_> s/those/tough/
[00:20:05] <Coren_> s/tough/though/
[00:20:09] <Coren_> Ack.
[00:22:11] <Coren_> You might not like the old-style digits though; it takes some getting used to
[00:23:48] * Coren_ tries to find the high-resolution B&W source.
[00:24:31] <Coren_> Gah. I should have put it in CVS.
[00:25:44] <Coren_> Incidentally, it obliques very well.
[00:27:38] <servus> Oblique?
[00:27:49] <servus> Italicize.
[00:28:43] <Coren_> No. Oblique. Italics is a typeface whose characters are leaning normally; oblique is what happens when you slant a roman font. They look similar, but it's not the same thing. :-)
[00:29:13] * servus greeks all his fonts from now on
[00:30:44] <Coren_> Meh. The idea is you cannot take a roman font and "make italics" with it; you can slant them and get obliques. Most "well-known" fonts are actually two fonts, a roman and an italic; thus "Times Roman" and "Times Italic"
[00:31:07] <servus> More than that.
[00:31:15] <servus> I have Arial, Arial Bold, Arial Light, Arial Italic, Arial Bold Italic...
[00:31:36] * servus sends Coren_ off for a vacation on the Serif islands
[00:32:12] <Coren_> I think "Arial Italic" is just an obliqued Arial. Are there actual Italic typefaces or do they just slant the roman ones?
[00:33:15] <Coren_> And yes, I could go into an interresting discourse about font weights too; on how making things thicker does not a bold make and so on. Computers are way behind still in typography, and suck greatly at real fonts. :-)
[00:33:21] <servus> arial.ttf, ariali.ttf, arialbd.ttf, arialbi.ttf, arialn.ttf, arialnb.ttf, arialnbi.ttf, arialni.ttf, arialuni.ttf
[00:33:34] <Coren_> Ah. They gott /that/ part right at least. :-)
[00:34:22] <servus> And they even have an "Arial narrow bold", you elitest
[00:35:09] <Coren_> Yes, of course, it's all still Arial.
[00:35:23] <Coren_> I.e.: a cheap knockoff of Helvetica.
[00:35:30] <servus> I think "Lorem Ipsum" should be replaced with a discourse about quick brown foxes and lazy dogs.
[00:36:51] <Coren_> But what of our comunal Dolor? :-)
[00:37:14] <servus> If I never see Lorem Ipsum again in my life, that would be OK with me.
[00:38:46] <Coren_> At any rate, you are indeed welcome to my font. I'm no Zapf, but give me a one-liner credit somewhere in a readme or something.
[00:39:21] <Coren_> If you want a font name, call it "Faux Medieval".
[00:39:37] <servus> "Created By Servus!"
[00:41:34] <Coren_> I should probably make it into a proper outline font someday; it would require my managing to learn to coerce cubic splines into doing my bidding. Sorta like doing brain surgery with chainsaw and pair of pliers. :-)
[00:42:13] <servus> And barbed wire
[00:42:57] * servus yayyys for Segfaults.
[00:43:52] <Coren_> Meh. I know the feeling. I'm still trying to figure out why my engine crashes at the fifth light.
[00:44:57] <servus> My core engine is solid, it's adding new stuff that is "fun" :-p
[00:44:58] <Coren_> Ah! Found it.
[00:45:05] <servus> That was quick ;-)
[00:45:14] <Coren_> My fifth light was lying /on/ a plane.
[00:45:27] <Coren_> Degenerate matrix leading to division by zero.
[00:45:29] <servus> You do matrix math with your lights?
[00:45:35] <Coren_> NaN are not your friends.
[00:45:43] <servus> if( numlights == 5) *((int*)0x0);
[00:45:46] <Coren_> For the shadows.
[00:47:08] <servus> Hmm, fopen is returning an invalid (yet not null) FILE*.
[00:47:40] <Coren_> <scottish>The heap, she is corrupted!</scottish>
[00:49:10] <Coren_> Aaah. Fireplace that give off light.
[00:49:14] <Coren_> Fireplaces.
[00:49:25] * servus smacks
[00:49:32] <servus> It smacks of injustice.
[00:50:02] <Coren_> No, that's okay, they give out light justly for everyone.
[00:50:37] <servus> Even Iolo? After the "Spark Incident"?
[00:52:56] <Coren_> Feh.
[00:54:35] <servus> For some reason, VC7 required me to define an operator= for a class that I use directly in a vector, ala std::vector<CSound>... I never do it that way, so I thought I'd try something new. I think that that is my problem o.O
[02:35:33] <Coren_> Ooo. Candles emit light too! :-)
[02:49:08] <servus> But can you extinguish them, and do they have flames? ;-)
[02:49:29] <Coren_> Yes, and no.
[02:49:45] <Coren_> I haven't put the particle system back in, yet
[02:50:04] <servus> I HAVE BESTED YOU AGAIN! *Goes through the Dr. Evil Motions*
[02:50:32] <servus> I think you might see "You see a light source. It appears to weigh 1.0 stones" somewhere on my screenshots : o)
[02:50:34] <Coren_> In fact, candles don't have candles yet. They just give off light. :-)
[02:51:17] <Coren_> I just wanted to see the properly lighted brit0
[02:52:43] <servus> I have a data description language thingy, so I can assign light and particle systems to any object/model, and script it slightly.
[02:52:49] <servus> s/script/tweak/ for the most part.
[03:02:01] * servus kicks OpenAL
[03:02:50] <Coren_> I ripped OpenAL out of LoW long, long ago. It's neat. It has great features. It does evil things to the heap.
[03:03:30] <servus> SDL_Mixer just seems a little weak is all, and I *really* want to play with sound occlusion and doppler, since I already have entity velocities and PVS trees
[03:05:41] <servus> Still have to try FMod out, too.
[03:06:51] <Coren_> Do you even have entities moving around at sufficient speeds to make doppler effect noticable? :-)
[03:08:35] <servus> Well.... No, but I can bounce a ball pretty fast.
[03:09:50] <Coren_> It'd need to be a ball making some sort of frequency-stable sound while flying around the air. :-) Though you could do pink noise for objects wooshing in air. :-)
[03:10:16] <servus> In my game-world, all items emit a piercing shriek when thrown
[03:10:34] <Coren_> They don't like being thrown I guess. :-)
[03:11:23] <servus> That's because everything my game world is a still-living head.
[03:11:44] <servus> They like the flying, but fear the end-point of their trajectories
[04:11:50] <servus> The OggVorbis API is pretty f'ugly.
[04:13:11] <servus> It uses tabs and spaces intermittently, and they are using a different tab width than me o.O
[04:20:37] <Coren_> Bochs is evil.
[04:20:51] <servus> oggfile is grody.
[04:20:59] <servus> Well, off to get a drink.
[04:21:00] <servus> bbl
[04:21:06] <Coren_> bibi
[04:52:56] <servus> hihi
[04:57:34] <servus> What is wrong with DosBox?
[04:57:54] <Coren_> Dunno. Was trying bochs. I'm building dosbox now. :-)
[04:59:24] <servus> What is your architecture/power?
[04:59:34] <Coren_> p4/1.4Ghz
[04:59:52] <servus> Hmm, Dosbox in dynamic core might just swing it
[05:00:24] <Coren_> Well, the system requirements for UW2 weren't so high. :-)
[05:00:36] <Coren_> I expect even interpreted emu should do it
[05:00:52] <servus> Heh, you haven't done much emulation, huh? :-p
[05:01:07] <servus> Your 1.4GHz P4 is a 14MHz 286 : o)
[05:01:35] <Coren_> Prolly more like a 40MHz 386, imo. If the emulator is even half-assed.
[05:01:53] <Coren_> I know I can emulate a 68020 running at 40Mhz with idle time to spare.
[05:05:41] <servus> Have you used libvorbisfile?
[05:05:51] <servus> Coren_: OK, that's what you think now ;-)
[05:06:22] <Coren_> Not yet. I've installed it, though, I made higher-quality renders of the music and decided to go ogg this time.
[05:06:56] <servus> Well even the sample files crash in the same place as my program (calls to ov_file) in both MSVC6 and MSVC7.
[05:06:58] <Coren_> I know I can run the 68k20 at 40Mhz because I do. All the time. :-)
[05:07:01] <servus> Not particularly inspiring, yet.
[05:09:58] <servus> I've been working on sound all day and have yet to get a blip : o)
[05:10:06] <Coren_> Wow. Worked perfecly on the first try.
[05:10:09] <servus> I had music and sfx running in SDL_Mixer.
[05:10:14] <servus> UW1?
[05:10:17] <Coren_> UW2
[05:10:23] <servus> Close enough. When was the last time you actually fired it up?
[05:10:34] <Coren_> UW2 in general?
[05:10:43] <servus> UW1 or UW2 games.
[05:11:03] <Coren_> 'bout 8 hours ago in dos. I just got tired of having to reboot everytime I needed to check something. :-)
[05:11:38] <Coren_> Now I need to find how to undo what I had done to get the light to go fullbright all the time. I need to check something about darkness. :-)
[05:11:40] <servus> Make sure you are using core=dynamic in the dosbox.conf for a big speed boost.
[05:11:43] <servus> Delete shades.dat
[05:11:48] <servus> Err, reinstall it
[05:11:54] <Coren_> Ah, yes, that was it.
[05:11:56] <Coren_> Thanks.
[05:12:03] * servus noddles
[05:12:28] * Coren_ mvs shadez.dat back to shades.dat
[05:13:29] <Coren_> ... both sound and music work perfectly too. Wow.
[05:13:47] <servus> DosBox is the Bee's Socks.
[05:14:01] * Coren_ is impressed.
[05:14:13] <servus> DosBox is one of the most polished FOSS projects out there.
[05:17:58] <Coren_> According to dosbox itself, I get to 34Mhz at 60% CPU utilization.
[05:27:11] <Coren_> Hm. It's overestimating a bit-- it's not counting the time it spends painting the screen. But still.
[05:27:18] * Coren_ tweaks the config a bit.
[05:30:52] <servus> Not only do the libvorbis example c files not work, but there is a fair amount of swearing in the comments. I am dually unimpressed.
[05:31:13] * Coren_ points out that the examples worked for him with gcc under linux.
[05:31:24] <Coren_> I didn't go any further than that, mind you.
[05:31:45] <servus> Yes, but working under one OS is not good enough.
[05:31:59] <servus> I'm about to say "Groooooooowl I'll use WAV for now".
[05:32:19] * Coren_ chuckles at the dosbox readme:
[05:32:25] <Coren_> Build instructions for VC++
[05:32:41] <Coren_> Don't use VC++:it creates faulty code in core_normal.cpp
[05:33:07] <servus> Makes me wonder if they even bothered to get it to work in VC.
[05:33:15] <servus> LibVorbis, that is.
[05:33:45] <Coren_> They might not. Some people are morally opposed to contorting around broken compilers.
[05:34:02] <servus> Looking at how disgustingly messy this sample code is, I don't think that's the case.
[05:34:05] <Coren_> Did they /finally/ even implemented bool?
[05:34:23] <servus> VC7 took several steps forward from VC6, and several steps backward.
[05:34:30] <servus> But bool has always worked :P
[05:35:03] <Coren_> When I gave up on VC (around 6, might have been just before) that "C++" (and I use the term loosely) didn't even have a working bool.
[05:35:47] <servus> There is so much swearing on the Xiph site and in its code... Very unprofessional.
[05:36:16] <Coren_> Nor static const member initialization in the class definition. And the namespace was poluted so badly half the code I had written clashed with required headers. Meh.
[05:36:42] <Coren_> I don't think the Xiph people are socially acceptable. THe codec is good, though.
[05:39:09] <servus> Their sample code is horrid, tells the user to "piss off", and crashes without explanation.
[05:39:15] <servus> It actually crashes inside the libcall.
[05:42:02] <Coren_> bedtime
[05:47:13] <servus> Night.
[05:47:15] <servus> Vorbis sucks.
[06:37:38] <servus> Oh well, got it to not barf on ov_open. Had to compile libs myself, and use static linkage (dynamic linkage breaks). The integrity of the libs supplied with the SDK1.1 should be evaluated...
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