[01:36:37] <Dominus> even worse, the linker isn't able to link ppc anymore, you need the old one :( and you might need the old assembler (libexec/gcc/ppc../4.0.1) for ppc)
[01:36:40] <Dominus> this sucks...
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[22:15:00] <servus> Really? Lame. I think they're completely getting rid of Rosetta in Lion
[22:15:31] <servus> I read that they included every full SDK + environment since 10.3 in XCode 4. I need to check on that, too...
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[22:33:18] <Dominus> servus, no, it's the other way round, only 10.6 is included in xcode 4
[22:34:22] <Dominus> you really need a 2nd installation of xcode 3.x to make stuff work without hacking too much around
[22:35:02] <servus> Hm, that's the opposite of what I've heard. Interesting. I'll hack around with it this weekend, maybe.
[22:35:39] <Dominus> believe me, I haven't heard it, I see it :)
[22:36:47] <Dominus> makes no sense to castrate the dynamic linker off its ppc port...
[22:40:44] <servus> It makes sense as for Lion dropping PPC support altogether, which angers me.
[22:40:56] <servus> People still use PPC apps...
[22:44:44] <Dominus> I'm in between
[22:45:22] <Dominus> I can really see the reasoning behind it and I only switched way in intel time
[22:45:40] <Dominus> I *do* have a ppc mac mini for testing around now, though
[22:45:56] <servus> I know some people still use PPC Adobe, MS Office, Eudora on Intel Macs. I don't see why they'd drop it, though. Maintaining Rosetta can't be that must work, and AFAIK, it just runs as a JIT interface layer for certain binaries.
[22:46:08] <Dominus> and only because there are apparently still some ppc exult users around
[22:46:48] <Dominus> true, abandoning rosetta seems to be a "just because we can" step
[22:47:38] <servus> Did you pay $5 for XCode?
[22:47:52] <servus> I feel like Apple is increasingly losing touch with their developer base.
[22:48:51] <Dominus> yes, I paid €4
[22:49:19] <Dominus> though I personally dislike it but I'm too much of a tinkerer not to want to use it
[22:50:00] <Dominus> but I think Apple should sell xcode4 if they want but they should make the development tools, gcc, sdk availlable for free
[22:50:12] <servus> Do you do much Cocoa? I understand the Interface Builder is finally integrated, which is a big deal to a lot of people. I don't mind the XCode 3 IB
[22:50:29] <Dominus> heck, even make the ios stuff to buy only
[22:50:51] <Dominus> xcode4 does look much nicer now
[22:50:56] <servus> $5 is a ridiculous number, though. Free or expensive. This time they didn't even pull out the Sarbanes-Oxley excuse like they did with Facetime and the 802.11N upgrade
[22:51:24] <Dominus> I'm not sure they even used that excuse for facetime
[22:51:44] <servus> (US accounting law forbidding addition of core features to a software product without charging for it, though it only seems to apply to Apple ...)
[22:51:47] <Dominus> I think people *think* they are using it but apple said nothing
[22:51:56] <servus> Yeah, it's really bizarre.
[22:52:13] <servus> I'd love to know their reasoning.
[22:52:23] <servus> Android is pulling ahead in the market and they start charging extra for XCode.
[22:52:36] <servus> I wonder if they're trying to encourage people to pay the $99 yearly iOS developer fee
[22:52:49] <Dominus> perhaps
[22:53:25] <Dominus> or thereis a German saying, approximately, only something that costs is something good
[22:54:48] <servus> I'd try a free bottle of wine over a $0.99 bottle, which I'd be suspicious of.
[22:55:00] <Dominus> he he
[22:55:24] <servus> Hm, it costs $99/year to distribute on the Mac App Store, too? Jeez. Way to stifle innovation.
[22:55:51] <servus> I realize that it's not necessary to distribute that way, but they're moving that direction, withholding the most up to date tools and all.
[22:56:15] <servus> MSVC Express is free and full-featured enough (though the enterprise versions are ridiculously expensive)
[22:56:44] <Dominus> yep a free version and an expensive one would be nice
[22:57:00] <Dominus> they still offer xcode 3.x for free download though
[22:57:10] <servus> I'm not sure I'm a fan of that. One thing I like about OS X is that they don't muddy the waters with a ton of different versions.
[22:57:55] <servus> There's a bit of concern in the community over that. MacPorts recommends using XCode to get the dev environment set up, so now what are they going to do? Stick with an old version of XCode, alienating XCode 4 users, or start requiring everyone to pay $5 to use MacPorts?
[22:58:21] <Dominus> yes, I'm subscribed to macports_user ML
[22:58:39] <servus> IMHO, this is a major screwup on Apple's part. The money isn't worth the loss of developer faith, which is already flagging.
[22:58:51] <Dominus> agreed
[22:59:21] <servus> Oh well, nothing I can do.
[22:59:41] <servus> Hopefully they change their mind and make it free again when Lion ships
[22:59:54] <servus> The damage will have been done by then
[22:59:57] <Dominus> macports only requires the development tools and not xcode.app itself, so, yes a free development tools+sdk versus paid for xcode.app+ios stuff
[23:00:09] <servus> How's Nuvie going, anyway? I see checkins every now and again, but haven't worked on it for some time :)
[23:00:26] <Dominus> nuvie is looking better and better
[23:00:29] <servus> Doing any work on it?
[23:00:40] <servus> Can't wait for Nuvie3D *duck*
[23:00:56] <servus> I did write a U6 -> U7 map conversion tool a while back, though...
[23:01:20] <Dominus> no, I just tested the osx snapshot on 10.4 ppc and 10.5 intel and was able to figure out why it wouldn't run on those two :)
[23:02:23] <Dominus> and bugging eric for stuff from time to time (for example nice preferences and paths on OS X - which he just put in the other day)
[23:02:25] <Dominus> :)
[23:03:02] <Dominus> really nice thing is that he implemented fm towns sfx and speech into nuvie, so if you have that you can marvel at the beyond excellent voice acting
[23:03:12] <servus> Nice. I have played FM Towns, yes :)
[23:03:20] <servus> I will compile it this weekend, I think!
[23:03:39] <servus> The website hasn't been updated in ages
[23:03:57] <Dominus> the xcode project file works nicely, only needs the sdl framework
[23:04:24] <servus> I'm all frameworked up, so that shouldn't be a problem. Curious to see how my own SDL game compiles on XCode4...
[23:04:27] <Dominus> building it unix style works as well but you lose the nice preferences and paths setup for some reason
[23:04:50] <servus> Is the setup Cocoa? I can do some work on that stuff, if you need
[23:05:14] <Dominus> sorry, not really a setup application
[23:05:44] <Dominus> I meant the new default paths nuvie assumes and uses on osx (similar to exult)
[23:06:59] <Dominus> when i built nuvie unix way, nuvie doesn't seem to know it should use those :)
[23:07:54] <servus> Ah, gotchya.